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Advice for Benzo PAWS and depression/anhedonia

anxiety depression irritability paws anhedonia benzo ibogaine nootropics

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#1 nicklesprout

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 06:05 PM


Hello, 

 

would like advice on possible supplements/nootropics to try. 

 

History:

 

Age 11 - 20 - habitual marijuana smoker and poly-substance abuser

Age 20 - diagnosed with Anxiety disorder, prescribed psych meds, including benzos

Age 20 - 28 - on/off many different psych meds, stayed on benzos

Age 28 - detoxed off of benzos using Ibogaine

Age 28 - 30 - back on psych meds/benzos due to failed detox

Age 30 - present (1 year) - been off all psych meds for a year, trying to find supplements to help

 

Current stack:

 

Magnesium - helps 

Tianeptine - not sure, seems to make me numb and make anhedonia worse

 

Tried in past:

 

large dose Niacin - helped sometimes, other times did nothing

fish oil - no noticeable effects

b12/methylfolate - no effects

curcumin - no effects

bacopa - no effect

ashwagandha - no effect

low dose Ibogaine - made me paranoid

marijuana - made me paranoid

the list goes on...

 

interested in trying P21, NSI 189 or Celebrolysin, and possibly a Racetam of some sort. Worried about anything making my irritability (bad!) worse or making my anxiety worse. Just ordered some CBD chocolates also. would also consider an empathogen such as MDAI if i could find it.

 

Any ideas of something that may help?

 

Thanks!

 

nicklesprout

 

 


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#2 β-Endorphin

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 07:48 PM

Have you looked in to Kava? It's a herb that acts on the brain like benzodiazepines, but through different mechanisms. As a result, it has little-no addiction potential, and seems to actually re-sensitize GABA receptors in the brain, versus alcohol and benzos that desensitize them. Just use it sparingly though because their is some risks to the liver.

 

Try to also get a lot of vegetable and fruits in your diet(if you aren't already). I used to eat tons of meat, bread and junk food. Constantly felt awful. Since switching to mainly fruit/vegetables I can see I never felt better. Full of energy and i'm actually in a good mood. I'm not saying it will cure you but It can help a lot.

 

For anhedonia you can try some CDP-Choline, boosts acetylcholine levels, but more important it upregulates Tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the amino acid L-tyrosine to dopamine.

 

You could probably through in some L-tyrosine too alongside that but it might make you more anxious so be warned.

 


Edited by β-Endorphin, 27 February 2015 - 07:51 PM.


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#3 nicklesprout

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:57 PM

Have you looked in to Kava? It's a herb that acts on the brain like benzodiazepines, but through different mechanisms. As a result, it has little-no addiction potential, and seems to actually re-sensitize GABA receptors in the brain, versus alcohol and benzos that desensitize them. Just use it sparingly though because their is some risks to the liver.

 

Try to also get a lot of vegetable and fruits in your diet(if you aren't already). I used to eat tons of meat, bread and junk food. Constantly felt awful. Since switching to mainly fruit/vegetables I can see I never felt better. Full of energy and i'm actually in a good mood. I'm not saying it will cure you but It can help a lot.

 

For anhedonia you can try some CDP-Choline, boosts acetylcholine levels, but more important it upregulates Tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the amino acid L-tyrosine to dopamine.

 

You could probably through in some L-tyrosine too alongside that but it might make you more anxious so be warned.

 

Thank you for chiming in, much appreciated! I was told to stay away from Kava as it may act on GABA receptors...? in regards to CDP-Choline, i've tried DMAE and Bacopa, both supposedly boost choline/acetylcholine in the brain, and I felt somewhat anxious at times, not sure if it was just normal anxiety or if the Choline can cause anxiety. can L-tyrosine make irritability worse?



#4 sensei

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:17 PM

Bacopa may help your GABA receptors move back towards homeostasis.

 

You were on benzos for a very long time, and unfortunately you did not correctly taper off -- you cold-turkey quit with ibogaine (obviously does not reset GABA receptors like it does opioid receptors)

and then the second time  you may not have tapered off correctly, multiple year long usage necessitates several months of tapering, if not a year.

 

That said -- PAWS for benzos if it is lasting this long will likely last for 2-3 years but get better continually.

 

Antidepressants are known to help, but bring their own issues with dependence and withdrawal syndromes.

 

Google ashton manual

 

See if weak herbal GABA agonists help with your withdrawal  -- I have successfully used kava to help taper off valium -- its slow going to do it without withdrawal 4-5 months to get from 15mg /day down to 2 -- and I only used it from May to October.

 

That said -- even on a taper that slow I have insomnia, night sweats, and sometimes that buzzy brain fog -- teeth buzz feeling.  But no anxiety or anhedonia.

 

You may also want to have your Testosterone checked if you are male.  Many antidepressants have been shown to lower T, perhaps benzos as well.  Testosterone lessens anxiety, lessens depression, and causes a better feeling of overall well being.  Replacement therapy WILL make you feel like a whole new man.

 

BZD withdrawal has also been noted to result in hypoglycemia in some persons -- which can cause anxiety, sweating, and depersonalization.


Edited by sensei, 27 February 2015 - 10:18 PM.


#5 nicklesprout

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:53 PM

Bacopa may help your GABA receptors move back towards homeostasis.

 

You were on benzos for a very long time, and unfortunately you did not correctly taper off -- you cold-turkey quit with ibogaine (obviously does not reset GABA receptors like it does opioid receptors)

and then the second time  you may not have tapered off correctly, multiple year long usage necessitates several months of tapering, if not a year.

 

That said -- PAWS for benzos if it is lasting this long will likely last for 2-3 years but get better continually.

 

Antidepressants are known to help, but bring their own issues with dependence and withdrawal syndromes.

 

Google ashton manual

 

See if weak herbal GABA agonists help with your withdrawal  -- I have successfully used kava to help taper off valium -- its slow going to do it without withdrawal 4-5 months to get from 15mg /day down to 2 -- and I only used it from May to October.

 

That said -- even on a taper that slow I have insomnia, night sweats, and sometimes that buzzy brain fog -- teeth buzz feeling.  But no anxiety or anhedonia.

 

You may also want to have your Testosterone checked if you are male.  Many antidepressants have been shown to lower T, perhaps benzos as well.  Testosterone lessens anxiety, lessens depression, and causes a better feeling of overall well being.  Replacement therapy WILL make you feel like a whole new man.

 

BZD withdrawal has also been noted to result in hypoglycemia in some persons -- which can cause anxiety, sweating, and depersonalization.

thanks sensei! i may give Bacopa another try since i still have some left over. yes, cold turkey and strong hallucinogen = bad news, can't put into words. 2nd time, i did taper off over a year using Ashton manual. i don't mind 2-3 years if i knew it would continue to get better, trying to be patient here, but the mental symptoms can be unbearable at times. my testosterone levels are normal as of my last lab test, but now wondering if adding additional T via replacement therapy would help...appreciate the feedback.



#6 Guinga

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:51 AM

you might wanna take a look at this topic: http://www.longecity...-sleep-quality/. i would also try some herbs or essential oils containing rosmarinic acid or/with  lemon balm which inhibiths the GABA transaminase enzyme, D-cycloserine also have this propierty. 

 

 

 

 

 


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#7 Galaxyshock

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:07 PM

St. John's wort for depression, anhedonia and to upregulate GABA-A. It also has some empathogenic qualities through 5-ht receptor upregulation. Give it at least a couple of weeks for best effects.



#8 sensei

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 09:24 PM

St. John's wort for depression, anhedonia and to upregulate GABA-A. It also has some empathogenic qualities through 5-ht receptor upregulation. Give it at least a couple of weeks for best effects.

 

Do you have a good peer reviewed citation for GABA-A upregulation from SJW?

Upregulation refers to sensitivity, not the amount of circulating GABA.

 

Flumenazil binding was not found to be inhibited by hyperforin nor hypericin -- meaning SJW is likely not a GABA receptor antagonist.

 

It binds to GABA receptors at the GABA A, B and benzodiazepine sites.

 

Usually that means gaba-ergic or gaba agonist activity which would down-regulate the receptors.  I have not found what type of allosteric modulation occurs at the receptor due to the binding of hypericum compounds.

 

 

hypericum upregulates serotonin receptors

 

it also has a wide spectrum of MAO inhibition as well as reuptake inhibition of serotonin, dopamine. and noradrenaline.



#9 Junk Master

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 06:17 AM

I seriously doubt if any non-pharmaceutical option is any more effective than a temporary palliative.  That's not to belittle any protocol that eases in any way the suffering from PAWS, but only that there's no substitute for time.

 

I, myself am interested in NSI-189 combined with daily CBT treatments and meditation, plus H.I.T exercise.  With the H.I.T I find C60 is quite effective at suppressing DOMS and speeding recovery.  Again, this is something I rotate.



#10 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 02:22 AM

I seriously doubt if any non-pharmaceutical option is any more effective than a temporary palliative.  That's not to belittle any protocol that eases in any way the suffering from PAWS, but only that there's no substitute for time.

 

I, myself am interested in NSI-189 combined with daily CBT treatments and meditation, plus H.I.T exercise.  With the H.I.T I find C60 is quite effective at suppressing DOMS and speeding recovery.  Again, this is something I rotate.

 

 

Bacopa has been shown to upregulate GABA receptors in mice.  It has also been shown to be as effective as pharmaceuticals for depression in human trials in India.

 

As far as exercise; I have found that TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) and heavy resistance training puts me in a great mood and has almost completely ameliorated any withdrawal symptoms associated with my BZD taper.

 

Bacopa worked for me previously, and vistaril (hydroxyzine) works splendidly as well for anxiolysis, insomnia, and SSRI/SSNRI discontinuation syndrome.



#11 Galaxyshock

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 12:16 PM

Do you have a good peer reviewed citation for GABA-A upregulation from SJW?

Upregulation refers to sensitivity, not the amount of circulating GABA.

 

Flumenazil binding was not found to be inhibited by hyperforin nor hypericin -- meaning SJW is likely not a GABA receptor antagonist.

 

It binds to GABA receptors at the GABA A, B and benzodiazepine sites.

 

Usually that means gaba-ergic or gaba agonist activity which would down-regulate the receptors.  I have not found what type of allosteric modulation occurs at the receptor due to the binding of hypericum compounds.

 

 

hypericum upregulates serotonin receptors

 

it also has a wide spectrum of MAO inhibition as well as reuptake inhibition of serotonin, dopamine. and noradrenaline.

 

 

It's amentoflavone in SJW that is bzd-site antagonist, I remember there being a study that showed long-term upregulation of GABA-A receptors but can't find it now. Regardless it's indeed an herb with broad range of effects that can help with depression and anhedonia mentioned by original poster.



#12 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 12:54 PM

 

It's amentoflavone in SJW that is bzd-site antagonist, I remember there being a study that showed long-term upregulation of GABA-A receptors but can't find it now. Regardless it's indeed an herb with broad range of effects that can help with depression and anhedonia mentioned by original poster.

 

 

It is a negative allosteric modulator, which is not the same as an antagonist.  It makes the ligand  (GABA) not act as strongly at the receptor.

 

In fact as a negative modulator, making endogenous GABA function not as well --  his GABA mediated symptoms are likely to increase based on the action of amentaflavone.



#13 Galaxyshock

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 01:42 PM

 

 

It's amentoflavone in SJW that is bzd-site antagonist, I remember there being a study that showed long-term upregulation of GABA-A receptors but can't find it now. Regardless it's indeed an herb with broad range of effects that can help with depression and anhedonia mentioned by original poster.

 

 

It is a negative allosteric modulator, which is not the same as an antagonist.  It makes the ligand  (GABA) not act as strongly at the receptor.

 

In fact as a negative modulator, making endogenous GABA function not as well --  his GABA mediated symptoms are likely to increase based on the action of amentaflavone.

 

 

Sorry, yeah it's NAM but basically the opposite of what benzos do. Based solely on amentoflavone yes GABA-symptoms could get worse, but then again amentoflavone is also kappa-opioid receptor (fear, anxiety, depression) antagonist. Also, hypericin has strong effect at GABA-B receptor and decreases NMDA activity IIRC. These other mechanisms should make it rather painless remedy for the purpose of GABA-A upregulation while you can also enjoy the benefits in depression/anhedonia symptoms. SJW would be my number one choice here.

 

Bacopa by the way doesn't actually upregulate GABA-receptors but only reverses GABA-function in induced epilepsy models. But it is effective anxiolytic/anti-depressant/nootropic.



#14 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 02:24 PM

No, a NAM is NOT the opposite o of an agonist. Furthermore, the evidence from the mouse study points to upregulation or increase in receptor density.

SJW is NOT recommended for GABA ergic issues. It upregulates 5HTA1 and 5HTA2 serotonin receptors.

#15 Galaxyshock

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:05 PM

No, a NAM is NOT the opposite o of an agonist. Furthermore, the evidence from the mouse study points to upregulation or increase in receptor density.

SJW is NOT recommended for GABA ergic issues. It upregulates 5HTA1 and 5HTA2 serotonin receptors.

 

I said NAM is opposite of benzodiazepines (which are PAMs).

 

Why exactly is it not recommended? serotonergic receptor upregulation is anti-depressive and the 5-ht2a especially good for anhedonia. A common remedy in protracted benzo PAWS is using SSRIs for depression and anxiety, but IMO st. john's does much better job without a bad withdrawal syndrome of its own like SSRIs can have. SJW also downregulates beta-adrenergic receptors which works as sort of a smooth long-term beta-blocker.



#16 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:20 PM

Actually, SSRIS AND SSNRIS, have been shown to cause anhedonia, both during usage, and as part of SSRI/SSNRI discontinuation syndrome. Cymbalta and Lexapro are two of the bad actors. If you read the OP he has used ADs in the past.

#17 β-Endorphin

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:26 PM

 

Have you looked in to Kava? It's a herb that acts on the brain like benzodiazepines, but through different mechanisms. As a result, it has little-no addiction potential, and seems to actually re-sensitize GABA receptors in the brain, versus alcohol and benzos that desensitize them. Just use it sparingly though because their is some risks to the liver.

 

Try to also get a lot of vegetable and fruits in your diet(if you aren't already). I used to eat tons of meat, bread and junk food. Constantly felt awful. Since switching to mainly fruit/vegetables I can see I never felt better. Full of energy and i'm actually in a good mood. I'm not saying it will cure you but It can help a lot.

 

For anhedonia you can try some CDP-Choline, boosts acetylcholine levels, but more important it upregulates Tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the amino acid L-tyrosine to dopamine.

 

You could probably through in some L-tyrosine too alongside that but it might make you more anxious so be warned.

 

Thank you for chiming in, much appreciated! I was told to stay away from Kava as it may act on GABA receptors...? in regards to CDP-Choline, i've tried DMAE and Bacopa, both supposedly boost choline/acetylcholine in the brain, and I felt somewhat anxious at times, not sure if it was just normal anxiety or if the Choline can cause anxiety. can L-tyrosine make irritability worse?

 

Kava does act on GABA receptors, just like benzodiazepines. As a result, it will cure your symptoms just like taking another benzo pill will cure your symptoms. Whats good about kava is instead of desensitizing GABA receptors like benzos do(This desensitization is what causes the Benzo PAWS), Kava actually seems to make the receptors more sensitive. So not only does it offer instant relief, it actually restores and heals your GABA receptors in the long term. Additionally, kava is really not addictive and has other goodies like a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, mao-b inhibitor and a cannabinoid cb1 agonist. 

 

I think the concern here is addiction, it might trigger some cravings for benzos. Just stick to just the Kava and you should be fine.

Also try to use it sparingly as their are some liver risks. But if you find that it helps tremendously, using it daily for a week or two should be fine. Just take breaks afterwards.



#18 nicklesprout

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:31 PM

I seriously doubt if any non-pharmaceutical option is any more effective than a temporary palliative.  That's not to belittle any protocol that eases in any way the suffering from PAWS, but only that there's no substitute for time.

 

I, myself am interested in NSI-189 combined with daily CBT treatments and meditation, plus H.I.T exercise.  With the H.I.T I find C60 is quite effective at suppressing DOMS and speeding recovery.  Again, this is something I rotate.

 

can you explain all these acronyms? have you tried NSI 189 yet? i'm interested but don't know a good source.



#19 nicklesprout

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:34 PM

 

 

Have you looked in to Kava? It's a herb that acts on the brain like benzodiazepines, but through different mechanisms. As a result, it has little-no addiction potential, and seems to actually re-sensitize GABA receptors in the brain, versus alcohol and benzos that desensitize them. Just use it sparingly though because their is some risks to the liver.

 

Try to also get a lot of vegetable and fruits in your diet(if you aren't already). I used to eat tons of meat, bread and junk food. Constantly felt awful. Since switching to mainly fruit/vegetables I can see I never felt better. Full of energy and i'm actually in a good mood. I'm not saying it will cure you but It can help a lot.

 

For anhedonia you can try some CDP-Choline, boosts acetylcholine levels, but more important it upregulates Tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the amino acid L-tyrosine to dopamine.

 

You could probably through in some L-tyrosine too alongside that but it might make you more anxious so be warned.

 

Thank you for chiming in, much appreciated! I was told to stay away from Kava as it may act on GABA receptors...? in regards to CDP-Choline, i've tried DMAE and Bacopa, both supposedly boost choline/acetylcholine in the brain, and I felt somewhat anxious at times, not sure if it was just normal anxiety or if the Choline can cause anxiety. can L-tyrosine make irritability worse?

 

Kava does act on GABA receptors, just like benzodiazepines. As a result, it will cure your symptoms just like taking another benzo pill will cure your symptoms. Whats good about kava is instead of desensitizing GABA receptors like benzos do(This desensitization is what causes the Benzo PAWS), Kava actually seems to make the receptors more sensitive. So not only does it offer instant relief, it actually restores and heals your GABA receptors in the long term. Additionally, kava is really not addictive and has other goodies like a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, mao-b inhibitor and a cannabinoid cb1 agonist. 

 

I think the concern here is addiction, it might trigger some cravings for benzos. Just stick to just the Kava and you should be fine.

Also try to use it sparingly as their are some liver risks. But if you find that it helps tremendously, using it daily for a week or two should be fine. Just take breaks afterwards.

 

 

any relevant studies you can point me to on KAva healing GABA receptors?

 

Actually, SSRIS AND SSNRIS, have been shown to cause anhedonia, both during usage, and as part of SSRI/SSNRI discontinuation syndrome. Cymbalta and Lexapro are two of the bad actors. If you read the OP he has used ADs in the past.

 

yes, they made things worse. i tried SJW a few months back and quit because i started to feel that plastic edgy feeling that SSRI's can give you. could be just me, but i'm a little scared to try it again.



#20 Galaxyshock

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:34 PM

Actually, SSRIS AND SSNRIS, have been shown to cause anhedonia, both during usage, and as part of SSRI/SSNRI discontinuation syndrome. Cymbalta and Lexapro are two of the bad actors. If you read the OP he has used ADs in the past.

 

Yes with SSRIs this most likely happens through downregulation of 5-HT2A and changes in endocannabinoid function. Which is why SJW is better because it upregulates 5-HT2A long-term and reverses changes at mesolimbic reward system thus relieving anhedonia.



#21 β-Endorphin

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:40 PM

 

 

 

Have you looked in to Kava? It's a herb that acts on the brain like benzodiazepines, but through different mechanisms. As a result, it has little-no addiction potential, and seems to actually re-sensitize GABA receptors in the brain, versus alcohol and benzos that desensitize them. Just use it sparingly though because their is some risks to the liver.

 

Try to also get a lot of vegetable and fruits in your diet(if you aren't already). I used to eat tons of meat, bread and junk food. Constantly felt awful. Since switching to mainly fruit/vegetables I can see I never felt better. Full of energy and i'm actually in a good mood. I'm not saying it will cure you but It can help a lot.

 

For anhedonia you can try some CDP-Choline, boosts acetylcholine levels, but more important it upregulates Tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the amino acid L-tyrosine to dopamine.

 

You could probably through in some L-tyrosine too alongside that but it might make you more anxious so be warned.

 

Thank you for chiming in, much appreciated! I was told to stay away from Kava as it may act on GABA receptors...? in regards to CDP-Choline, i've tried DMAE and Bacopa, both supposedly boost choline/acetylcholine in the brain, and I felt somewhat anxious at times, not sure if it was just normal anxiety or if the Choline can cause anxiety. can L-tyrosine make irritability worse?

 

Kava does act on GABA receptors, just like benzodiazepines. As a result, it will cure your symptoms just like taking another benzo pill will cure your symptoms. Whats good about kava is instead of desensitizing GABA receptors like benzos do(This desensitization is what causes the Benzo PAWS), Kava actually seems to make the receptors more sensitive. So not only does it offer instant relief, it actually restores and heals your GABA receptors in the long term. Additionally, kava is really not addictive and has other goodies like a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, mao-b inhibitor and a cannabinoid cb1 agonist. 

 

I think the concern here is addiction, it might trigger some cravings for benzos. Just stick to just the Kava and you should be fine.

Also try to use it sparingly as their are some liver risks. But if you find that it helps tremendously, using it daily for a week or two should be fine. Just take breaks afterwards.

 

 

any relevant studies you can point me to on KAva healing GABA receptors?

 

 

This has already been discussed on this forum, i'm just going to through the main thread about this here, and you can check it out for yourself: http://www.longecity...r-upregulation/



#22 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 06:03 PM

Kava does act on GABA receptors, just like benzodiazepines. As a result, it will cure your symptoms just like taking another benzo pill will cure your symptoms. Whats good about kava is instead of desensitizing GABA receptors like benzos do(This desensitization is what causes the Benzo PAWS), Kava actually seems to make the receptors more sensitive. So not only does it offer instant relief, it actually restores and heals your GABA receptors in the long term. Additionally, kava is really not addictive and has other goodies like a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, mao-b inhibitor and a cannabinoid cb1 agonist. 

 

 

I think the concern here is addiction, it might trigger some cravings for benzos. Just stick to just the Kava and you should be fine.

Also try to use it sparingly as their are some liver risks. But if you find that it helps tremendously, using it daily for a week or two should be fine. Just take breaks afterwards.

 

 

I can attest to KAVA helping ameliorate BZD withdrawal during taper without causing dependence either to KAVA or the BZD -- have used it to successfully taper from 15 mg diazepam per day to 2 mg per day.  Taper continues, currently not using KAVA.

 

As far as liver toxicity, that was due to use of non-root parts of the plant WHICH CONTAIN HEPATOTOXINS.



#23 sensei

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 06:17 PM

I also followed Science Guy's advice for treating anxiety safely -- thread is a few down in Mental health ---- with the exception of KAVA - which I found to be extremely helpful rather than harmful.

 

I had used ethanol very heavily in the past for ~14 years -- became sober in 2012   

 

BZDs and SSNRI were prescribed to control Persistent Ethanol WD Syndrome

 

Highest BZD dose was 2mg clonazepam and 40 mg diazepam combined daily, and up to 90 mg Cymbalta (horrid SSNRI discontinuation)

 

The anxiety was caused by BZD taper induced withdrawal, continued PAWS from ethanol, and SSNRI discontinuation

 

What worked for me:

 

Combination of 

 

Relora

Bacopa

Rhodiola

Magnesium

Epsom Salt Soaks

KAVA

Vistaril/hydroxyzine -- waaaay better than Benadryl

 

What caused worse symptoms

 

Theanine

Caffeine and other xanthines from coffee at dosages greater than 300mg caffeine a day.

 

 

What stopped the WD symptoms from the current taper cold

 

Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Heavy Resistance Training

 

 

 Currently Out of 30  days -- 25 are sunny, 4 overcast, and 1 slightly rainy -- metaphorically speaking


Edited by sensei, 02 March 2015 - 06:20 PM.

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#24 Synzael

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 11:27 PM

I would suggest fasoracetam because of it's ability to fix GABA receptors. Agmantine, Centrophenonxine, Noopept, Phenylpiracetam, P21 and N acetyl Selank+Semax


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#25 Junk Master

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 01:55 PM

I'm really curious why you would add the Agmantine?  I've had very good results using it as a workout supplement as an over 40 male, but I wouldn't have thought of it for PAWS, except for the fact it is a novel neurotransmitter.



#26 nicklesprout

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 03:56 PM

I would suggest fasoracetam because of it's ability to fix GABA receptors. Agmantine, Centrophenonxine, Noopept, Phenylpiracetam, P21 and N acetyl Selank+Semax

 

I'm also wondering what results you've had with the above supplements? did you use them for benzo or anxiety issues? have you tried all of them?



#27 sensei

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 03:52 AM

I would suggest fasoracetam because of it's ability to fix GABA receptors. Agmantine, Centrophenonxine, Noopept, Phenylpiracetam, P21 and N acetyl Selank+Semax

 

 

Any GABA activity from fascoracetam would be limited to the GABA-B receptor site, as that is where it acts as an antagonist.

 

Unfortunately, the target of benzodiazepines and the main downregulated receptor subunits are the GABA-A receptors, specifically α1-, α2-, α3-, or α5.

 

Fascoracetam may help with GABAB agonist withdrawal like ethanol or Phenibut (ethanol acts at the GABAA and GABAB sites, hence the efficacy of BZDs for ethanol withdrawal), as Baclofen a GABA analogue and GabaB agonist is extremely effective at ameliorating alcohol withdrawal.

 

Antagonism and upregulation  of GABAB would be helful in that regard, but not so much toward BZD PAWS.


Edited by sensei, 11 March 2015 - 03:55 AM.


#28 AlmostEasy

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 11:53 PM

How's your situation coming along?  I might be in a similar situation with alcohol induced PAWS from years of weekend binge drinking.

 

I'm currently using SEMAX / Kava kava / Fasoracetam.  It's too early to see the long term repair potential (obviously) but they make things a little better acutely at least.  Semax especially.  Big plans for P21 when the nasal spray comes to Ceretropic.  Oh yeah, NSI 189 is also on the way.  I spent too many years fucking around ;) time for the real deal.

 

Hope things are improving!



#29 nicklesprout

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 03:44 AM

thanks. situation still difficult. CBD helped a little. Magnesium helps a little. trying St. John's Wort for depression, have yet to see any results, but just started. Also trying NAC, nothing yet on that either. I tried Bacopa but the acetylcholine enhancement seems to cause a little anxiety, so i stopped. can you tell me what exactly the SEMAX is doing for you? not sure how that one is supposed to work. would be interested to hear about NSI 189 too and where you found that, the only source i found was charging around $100 for a gram i believe.



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#30 AlmostEasy

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 08:36 PM

That's the problem with these big problems, all these supplements help a "little" bit but don't really do much. Maybe I'm just bitter because of how much disappoint I experienced with it all but it holds true for me.

Well acutely at times it helps a lot with just mental stability and support, more than anything else besides Ritalin. What I'm really looking for is long term repair. I do notice the next mornings I'll wake up feeling different than I usually would. More clear, less confused. That's a good sign I think and there's evidence to believe these peptides could result in substantial repair in people with damage, where the effects may not be as pronounced in people that are healthy. I think that's where these may shine and is what I'm putting my money on after a couple years research and experimenting.

I can understand your suffering and it pains me to see people doing the same thing I did going through a rollercoaster of hope and disappointment for years on end so any situations I see like this, I implore them to just start with the big stuff and then move downward from there if they'd like to continue. I wish I knew now what I know when I started, I may have been spared a lot of agony.

Best of luck





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