9 replies to this topic

[misterE]

What I wanted to do was organize a list of food in descending order from the polyunsaturated to saturated/monounsaturated fat ratio. I used Cron-O-Meter and added the values for both SFA and MUFA. I then divided the total grams of polyunsaturated fat, by the added value of the SFA and MUFA in each given food; to get the ratio. I excluded beans, grains, vegetables and fruits, because their level of fat is so small that it is likely irrelevant.

 

 

PUFA:SFA/MUFA Ratio

 

Safflower oil= 3.6

Walnuts= 3.1

Flaxseeds= 2.5

Sunflower oil= 2.2

Soybean oil= 1.5

Corn oil= 1.3

Cottonseed oil= 1.2

Oysters= 0.78

Peanuts= 0.54

Trout= 0.54

Pecans= 0.46

Canola oil= 0.40

Almonds= 0.35

Salmon= 0.31

Turkey-fat= 0.31

Cod liver oil= 0.30

Chicken-fat= 0.27

Catfish= 0.25

Sardines= 0.24

Egg= 0.17

Avocado= 0.15

Lard= 0.13

Olive oil= 0.12

Palm oil= 0.10

Milk= 0.07

Tallow= 0.04

Cocoa = 0.03

Butter= 0.03

Cheese= 0.03

Macadamia=0.02

Coconut-oil= 0.02

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by misterE, 09 March 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[timar]

What is this list supposed to be good for? What does it tell you about the health value of the particular food items?

 

Walnuts and flaxseeds are two of the most wholesome foods on our planet (at least when consumed in moderate amounts), not only providing generous amounts of omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid but also beneficial plant protein and very powerful phenolic compounds such as lignans and ellagic acid.

 

Safflower, sunflower and corn oil, on the other hand, oil are (usually)heavily processed and refined vegetable oils, stripped of any beneficial phytochemicals, with an abysmal omega-3/6 ratio (<1:100) and commonly used to prepare fried and processed junk-food.

 

Your list suggest that those foods would have anything significant in common. They don't.

Edited by timar, 26 March 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[misterE]

The foods on the bottom of the list have a fatty-acid profile that is reflective of human body-fat. Lard for instance is nearly identical to human body-fat in terms of composition. Over the past century we have decreased the S/M:P ratio.

 

I now think that the long-chain saturated and monounsaturated fats are the best and most needed, that is why we synthesize them. The polyunsaturated-fats aren't "essential" because they are the best and most needed, but rather because they are ubiquitous and therefor deficiency is rare.

 

The best place to obtain the long-chain saturated and monounsaturated-fats are from eating the foods on the bottom of the list... but of course most people regard those foods as unhealthy. The other way to obtain these beneficial fats is by consuming lots of carbohydrates, like starch and sugar, which your body can synthesize these fats out of. With the mainstream perception of saturated-fat being bad and popularity of low-carb diets, ... perhaps people nowadays are not deficient in the essential fatty-acids, but rather deficient in the unessential palmitic, stearic, oleic and palmitoleic acids... or at the very least, they have a low ratio of those fats to linoleic, linolenic and arachidonic acids.  

[timar]

You may think what you fancy - the scientific evidence tells a very different story.

 

Why do health nerds so often feel the need to come up with grandiose, personal theories about nutrition when they haven't made it halfway - no, not even tenth-way trough the scientific literature? Possibly because they know that putting knowledge before speculation would hamper their narcisstic drive to puff themselves up in front of an even less educated internet audience as the rogue nutritiononists they like to see themselves as.

 

 

I now think that the long-chain saturated and monounsaturated fats are the best and most needed, that is why we synthesize them. The polyunsaturated-fats aren't "essential" because they are the best and most needed, but rather because they are ubiquitous and therefor deficiency is rare.

 

This sentence nicely illustrates the major problem in your thinking - you broadly confuse and intermingle entirely different categories. What does the fact that we synthesize saturated fatty acids and that most of our body fat is composed of them tell us about their health effect in the diet? Exactly nothing.

 

I'm not commenting any further on such self-important nonesense.

Edited by timar, 27 March 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[misterE]

The list could also predict the lipid-peroxidation of these foods. Whereas if you leave Salmon out in the open, it will oxidize and go rancid very quickly, giving off that fishy smell, while butter, if left out in the open takes a very long time to oxidize. Plus it is just interesting. How many people here knew that chicken-fat was just as unsaturated as fish-oil? I sure didn't until I made the list.

 

 

 

Edited by misterE, 27 March 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[timar]

It doesn't because the ratio you have choosen is simplified to a degree where it has no value whatsoever.

 

The susceptibility to oxidation does not only depend on the degree of unsaturation (the difference between DHA and lineolic acid is much greater than the difference between linoleic acid and oleic acid) and the chain length but obviously also on the presence of antioxidants and the matrix the fatty acid is embedded in. Polyunsaturated fatty acids in raw nuts and seeds are protected from oxygen by the plant cell walls. They are accompanied by potent antioxidants, tocols and phenols, which further protect them from oxidation.

[misterE]

You just couldn't help it timar, you had to comment again on this non-sense lol, it's ok. I agree with much of what you said. And it is interesting to note that many of the plant-foods high in PUFAs also seem to travel along with many potent antioxidants; flaxseed for instance is highly unsaturated yet travels along side some of the most powerful antioxidants known to man; lignans. The same is true for PUFAs and vitamin-E. In nature, wherever there is a lot of unsaturated-fat, it not only travels with antioxidants but also vitamin-E, while there are some exceptions to this in both cases. Nuts and avocados fit into this line of thinking. You mentioned the omega-3 to omega-6 balance... Well if you put any weight into that at all, you should realize that almonds and peanuts have ratios of 1 to 2000 and 4000 respectively.

But perhaps these antioxidants are only beneficial because they delay the eventual and inevitable oxidation of these delicate fatty-acids. Many of the modern diseases are caused by an accumulation of arachidonic-acid, and a subsequent increase in cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase activity, leading to chronic inflammation and oxidative-stress. Most people in westernized nations have an overload of omega-6 in their tissues, these omega-6 fats are found in vegetable-oils and fats from non-ruminant animals, but they are also found in large quantities in "healthy" plant-foods like nuts, seeds, avocados and olives.

For someone with an over accumulation of PUFAs, who wishes to lower the content of it from the body, would, if choosing to eat fatty-foods, want to favor foods from the bottom and limit foods from the top. And even if you don't choose to eat overt fats, you can still increase you S/M:P ratio just by avoid foods from the upper two-thirds of the list, because your body will naturally synthesize SFA and MUFA from the carbohydrates you eat in place of fatty-foods.

Edited by misterE, 27 March 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[timar]

I would like to ask the person who tagged my last post as "ill-informed" to kindly explain what part of what I wrote he or she exactly considers ill-informed, providing some reference to enlighten me about my factual mistake or, alternatively, to stop misusing the feedback system. Thank you.

 

You mentioned the omega-3 to omega-6 balance... Well if you put any weight into that you should realize that almonds and peanuts have ratios of 1 to 2000 and 4000 respectively.

 

Yes I mentioned it, as one aspect to consider among many others, not to make a religion out of it or to claim that the value of foods should be judged exclusively or even predominantly by this abstract ratio. There is strong and conclusive evidence for the health benefits of almonds and peanuts, their lack of omega-3 notwithstanding. Evidence from epidemiology and RCTs always overrules any speculative assessments based on mere abstractions. Moreover, both almonds and peanuts contain relatively little PUFA, so their impact on the absolute dietary omega-3/6-ratio is not large, as long as one makes sure also to include at least one or two good sources of alpha-linoleic acid in the diet (e.g. flax seed and walnuts). Compare that to seed oils such as corn and sunflower oil which consist mostly of linolic acid and are used in liberal amounts. One ounce of potato chips fried in sunflower oil contains about twice as much linolic acid as an ounce of almonds.

 

But perhaps these antioxidants are only beneficial because they delay the eventual and inevitable oxidation of these delicate fatty-acids. Many of the modern diseases are caused by an accumulation of arachidonic-acid, and a subsequent increase in cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase activity, leading to chronic inflammation and oxidative-stress. Most people in westernized nations have an overload of omega-6 in their tissues, these omega-6 fats are found in vegetable-oils and fats from non-ruminate animals, but they are also found in large quantities in "healthy" plant-foods like nuts, seeds, avocados and olives.

 

This theory is like your list - factually correct, but so grossly over-simplified that it is virtually worthless, if not dangerously misleading.

 

For someone with an over accumulation of PUFAs, who wishes to lower the content of it from the body, would, if choosing to eat fatty-foods, want to favor foods from the bottom and limit foods from the top. And even if you don't choose to eat overt fats, you can still increase you S/M:P ratio just by avoid foods from the upper two-thirds of the list, because your body will naturally synthesize SFA and MUFA from the carbohydrates you eat in place of fatty-foods.

 

Who is "someone with an over accumulation of PUFAs"? I certainly have never seen such a person, nor ever heard of someone diagnosed with this horrible condition. Oddly enough, even PubMed doesn't seem to list any papers describing it - only thousands upon thousands of papers on the adverse effects of excess saturated fat in the diet. So either your theory is light-years ahead of current nutritional science or, well...

Edited by timar, 27 March 2015 - 08:52 PM.

[misterE]

 

 

Who is "someone with an over accumulation of PUFAs"? I certainly have never seen such a person, nor ever heard of someone diagnosed with this horrible condition. Oddly enough, even PubMed doesn't seem to list any papers describing it -

 

#1

Clin Nutr. 2007 Aug;26(4):474-82.

 

Adipose tissue arachidonic acid and the metabolic syndrome in Costa Rican adults.

 

Williams ES, Baylin A, Campos H.

 

Abstract

 

BACKGROUND & AIMS:

 

Arachidonic acid, a precursor to a series of inflammatory mediators, may contribute to the development of insulin resistance. We examined the association between adipose tissue arachidonic acid and the metabolic syndrome in Costa Rica, a country in which the metabolic syndrome is highly prevalent.

 

METHODS:

 

The 484 study participants each provided a fasting blood sample and an adipose tissue biopsy that was analyzed for fatty acid composition. Criteria for the metabolic syndrome were those established in the Third Report of the National Cholesterol Education Program Expert Panel. The data were analyzed by multivariate logistic regression.

 

RESULTS:

 

Subjects with greater adipose tissue arachidonic acid content had an increasing risk of the metabolic syndrome across quintiles: odds ratio (95% confidence interval), 1.00; 1.51 (0.78-2.91); 2.40 (1.26-4.55); 3.50 (1.84-6.66); and 6.01 (3.11-11.61); test for trend, P<0.0001, after adjustment for age, gender and area of residence. Further adjustment for metabolic risk factors, including adipose fatty acids and body mass index, did not significantly modify the result. Adipose tissue arachidonic acid was also independently associated with abdominal obesity, hypertriglyceridemia, elevated fasting glucose, and high blood pressure.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

 

This study identifies arachidonic acid as an important independent marker of metabolic dysregulation. A better understanding of the role of this fatty acid in the pathogenesis of the metabolic syndrome is warranted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#2

Prog Lipid Res. 2006 May;45(3):203-36.

 

Temporal changes in dietary fats: role of n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids in excessive adipose tissue development and relationship to obesity.

 

Ailhaud G, Massiera F, Weill P.

 

Abstract

 

The importance of a high fat intake in the increasing prevalence of childhood and adult obesity remains controversial. Moreover, qualitative changes (i.e. the fatty acid composition of fats) have been largely disregarded. Herein is reviewed the role of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) of the n-6 series in promoting adipogenesis in vitro and favouring adipose tissue development in rodents during the gestation/suckling period. Epidemiological data from infant studies as well as the assessment of the fatty acid composition of mature breast milk and infant formulas over the last decades in the Western industrialized world are revisited and appear consistent with animal data. Changes over decades in the intake of n-6 and n-3 PUFAs, with a striking increase in the linoleic acid/alpha-linolenic ratio, are observed. In adults, using a consumption model based upon production data, similar changes in the PUFA content of ingested lipids have been found for France, and are associated with an increase of fat consumption over the last 40 years. These profound quantitative and qualitative alterations can be traced in the food chain and shown to be due to changes in human dietary habits as well as in the feeding pattern of breeding stock. If prevention of obesity is a key issue for future generations, agricultural and food industry policies should be thoroughly reevaluated.

 

 

 

 

#3

Isr J Med Sci. 1996 Nov;32(11):1134-43.

 

Diet and disease--the Israeli paradox: possible dangers of a high omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid diet.

 

Yam D, Eliraz A, Berry EM.

 

Abstract

 

Israel has one of the highest dietary polyunsaturated/saturated fat ratios in the world; the consumption of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) is about 8% higher than in the USA, and 10-12% higher than in most European countries. In fact, Israeli Jews may be regarded as a population-based dietary experiment of the effect of a high omega-6 PUFA diet, a diet that until recently was widely recommended. Despite such national habits, there is paradoxically a high prevalence of cardiovascular diseases, hypertension, non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus and obesity-all diseases that are associated with hyperinsulinemia (HI) and insulin resistance (IR), and grouped together as the insulin resistance syndrome or syndrome X. There is also an increased cancer incidence and mortality rate, especially in women, compared with western countries. Studies suggest that high omega-6 linoleic acid consumption might aggravate HI and IR, in addition to being a substrate for lipid peroxidation and free radical formation. Thus, rather than being beneficial, high omega-6 PUFA diets may have some long-term side effects, within the cluster of hyperinsulinemia, atherosclerosis and tumorigenesis.

 

 

 

 

 

Plus timar, look at American dietary trends for the past 105 years, you will notice that the consumption of polyunsaturated-fat (from vegetable-oil, non-ruminate meat, nuts and fish-oils) have all increased more than any other variable... see for yourself, page 28:

http://www.cnpp.usda...ly1909-2000.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[timar]

Those papers do not describe "an over accumulation of PUFAs" - you once again throw together different things and categories. Two of them are merely thesis papers, describing a hypothetical imbalance between omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids and their eicosanoid metabolites, and one describes elevated levels of arachidonic acid in Costa Ricans with metabolic syndrom, without infering any causality.

 

Believe me, it is not the first time I run across those studies. I have been there years ago, when the omega-3-hype first made its waves, seen it all, read all the literature, felt exited for a short peroid of time - but then I took a step back and looked at the larger picture again, considering the epidemiology and clinical trials and found them to hardly support the grandiose thesis put forth by some authors.

 

There is a large body of epidemiological evidence showing that substituting saturated fats or even refined carbohydrates with PUFAs reduces mortality risk and/or several specific disease risks. Most epidemiological studies do not adequately differentiate between omega-6 and omega-3, but the positive effects tend to be more pronounced in countries with a high traditional consumption of omega-3-rich plant oils and fish (e.g. Japan and Mediterranean countries). Ramsden's et al. meta-analysis of PUFA intervention trials - particularly their dissection of the Sidney Diet Heart trial in contrast to the singularly sucessful Lyon Diet Heart Study - has nicely complemented the epidemiological evidence, showing that the subtitution of saturated fat with a balanced amount (1:5 alpha-linolenic to linoleic as found in soy and walnut oil seems to suffice) of PUFAs significantly reduced the risk of CVD and all-cause mortality, while only the imbalanced ones, providing almost exclusively linoleic acid, tended to fail.

 

The fact, though, that the omega-6-trials didn't fail more badly, tells us that even an excessive intake of linoic acid from refined plant oils can't be that much worse than the usual excessive intake of saturated fats or refined carbohydrates. All things considered, the lesson learned should be not to obsess about macronutrients and abstract ratios, but to eat a whole food, predominantly plant based diet, including at least one good plant source of omega-3 (e.g. flaxseed), complemented by a small amount of HUFAs from fish or algae oil.

 

 

Edited by timar, 28 March 2015 - 01:07 AM.