12 replies to this topic

[CD23]

Hello!

 

I am seeking some clarification on supplementation.  Here's a brief overview of my situation:

 

History: I am a 34 year old female, NKDA, with no major health history or mental health diagnoses.  I am unmarried and have 1 child, who is 4.5 years old.

 

About 18 months ago I began looking into supplements and nootropics to help me deal with my stress levels which were, at the time, spiraling out of control.  The environmental conditions I have been in for the past few years have been pretty challenging (I went through a divorce, I am a single mother, I am a nursing student, my own mother was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition and had to move in with me, etc.), so the source of my stress reactions is certainly understandable, to a certain degree.  Nevertheless, I was needing a way to manage it all before I completely lost control.  I also have a history of struggles with depression, anxiety, and binge eating disorder.  In all cases, however, my symptoms have been manageable enough that I have never sought out any more help than intermittent counseling.  This, along with making sure I get regular sleep and exercise and eat a healthy diet, has generally been sufficient to bring me back into a stable and happy mind set.  At baseline, I'm a pretty optimistic and joyful person.  Over the past five years, though, life events have been difficult enough to strain my mental health to a near breaking point.  That's when I began looking into supplements.  I was on the verge of seeking pharmaceutical relief (ie SSRI's, etc.), but I have always been hesitant to go that route if I can avoid it.

 

 

Symptoms/Changes I am seeking:

 

1) Luteal phase mood and physical symptoms consistent with PMDD (sleeping difficulty, depression, hopelessness, loss of libido, food cravings, extreme anxiety, body aches, fatigue, breast tenderness, extreme irritability).  I actually have been aware of the correlation between the luteal phase of my cycle and my bouts of depression and anxiety for about 10 years now.  It's not a subtle shift.  I feel like an entirely different person during the luteal phase of my cycle each month, and it does not feel like I am myself at all.  The effects are not always debilitating, but they sometimes can be.  They last anywere from 5 days to a full two weeks.  This last month, for instance, I could tell, just by the shift in my mood, the day that I ovulated.  The next two weeks were horrible.  I spent hours last week crying and sturggling to sleep and trying not to overreact and yell at people.  Life lost all color and felt completely overwhelming.  Today, day 5 of the follicular phase of my cycle, I have a hard time even remembering what was so upsetting.  Looking back at my history of occasional bouts of depression, it is clear that my hormonal cycle has always played an important role.  There have only been a few times in my life that I have had any kind of mood disturbance that actually lasted longer than two weeks.  The first trimester of pregnancy was one.  Post-partum was another.

 

2) Occasional bouts of mild anxiety, lack of motivation and foggy thinking not associated with the luteal phase of my cycle. These are not actually so much symptoms as just areas that I am seeking to optimize.  As a single mother and a nursing student (I also work part time), my schedule is often insanely full and, at times, I am required to function at a high mental level on not enough sleep and irregular exercise.  I have been an A student throughout much of my schooling.  Lately, I have been struggling a bit to keep that level of academic performance up.

 

3) I am also seeking generalized health and longevity enhancement.  As I mentioned, I am currently living with my mother who suffers from CIDP, a rare autoimmune condition.  She is also obese, depressed, and has celiac disease.  She has a history of endometriosis and PMDD symptoms, much like mine, but she also never had an official diagnosis.  She had a total hysterectomy at 37 because her symptoms were so severe.  Her daily presence is a powerful motivator to maintain my health.

 

 

Things I have tried: 

 

1) Getting enough sleep/keeping a regular sleep schedule: this is the most effective intervention I have found for myself.  Unfortunately, it's not always possible.  Sometimes I have a sick child during the night, or have to wake up for clinicals at 4am, or study for a test all night.  I have also had to come to accept that I have a high sleep requirement.  I need 8-9 hours of sleep to function optimally, and getting 7 hours for even a couple of nights has a noticeable impact on my mood and cognition.

 

2) Exercise: this is an obvious one.  When I get regular exercise, I do much better.  Right now I am doing a once/week HIRT program for muscle mass maintenance and hormonal benefits and also doing my best to find time for brief daily cardio like walking in between those sessions.  When I am not in school, I have no trouble with a regular exercise routine.  I use to teach martial arts and love to exercise.  Time constraints really are a problem for me during the semester.

 

3) Cold exposure: I started taking daily cold showers about 2 months ago.  I have noticed an energizing and mood lifting effect.  This habit fell apart completely during my most recent luteal phase meltdown.  This last month was a bad one for me.

 

4) Caffeine and L-theanine: I generally drink 1-2 cups of strong coffee daily, and take NOW brand L-theanine with it.  Improved concentration, uplifted mood, and decreased fatigue for about 3-5 hours are the noticeable effects.  Coffee has an upper limit of effectiveness for me.  It will overcome mild-moderate sleep deprivation in the morning, but once the effect wears off around noon another cup makes no difference.  I can fall asleep right after drinking it.

 

4) Phenibut: I know that this is not really a supplement, but actually a pharmaceutical.  I also know that that distinction is pretty pointless.  Phenibut was one of the first "nootropics" that I tried.  I put nootropic in quotes because I'm not sure it really qualifies.  It is a potent anxiolytic and sleep aid, though, for me.  I am very sensitive to it, and take about 150-300mg at bedtime.  More than that will make me too groggy the next day.  I have taken Phenibut 1-3 nights/week for about a year now.  I time it to coincide with anxiety inducing events like practical exams, or else take it when I know that I desperately need to have a good long catch-up sleep that night.

 

5) Armodafinil 62.5 - 125mg: As you can tell by my dosage, I am pretty sensitive to this stuff too.  I have been using it intermittently to get me through when I just have to study or work and I have not had enough sleep or cannot drum up the motivation or concentration.  The 62.5mg dosage is generally sufficient to counteract mild sleep deprivation for several hours, or else to boost cognition and focus when I have had adequate sleep.  The 125mg dosage will overcome a pretty severe sleep deficit for about 6-8 hours.  Unfortunately, I find that the effectiveness decreases and the side effects increase with repeated usage.  I can generally use this for 2-3 days in a row, max, and then need to take a pretty good long break (say, a week) before effectiveness completely returns.

 

3) Alcohol: of course, in moderation.  A good strong IPA in the evening has kept me from completely losing my cool more than once.  I drink 1-4 drinks/week, usually.  I find that I develop tolerance rapidly.  If I drink a beer every evening for 3 evenings, I stop feeling much effect.  At that point, I generally just stop drinking for several days and the effect returns.

 

4) Holy Basil - Himalaya brand: I've taken this intermittently in the AM, prior to meals.  Generally on a week, off a week for about a year.  I think that I have noticed some anxiolytic and appetite suppressant effects.

 

5) Rhodioloa - NOW brand 500mg: I usually alternate this with Holy Basil.  Once again, I think I've noticed some mood stabilizing effects, but I'm not sure.

 

6) Bacopa: I tried this for about a weak and actually felt terrible.  Really depressed.  Should have tracked what time of month it was, but I didn't.

 

7) 5-HTP - NOW brand 50 mg: I usually take this at bedtime twice a week.  No noticeable effect.

 

8) Alpha GPC - NOW brand 300 mg: Taken daily for about 5 months now.  No noticeable effect.

 

9) NAC - NOW brand 600mg: 1 day in the AM for the past 2 months.  No noticeable effect.

 

10) Calcium - NOW Brand 1200mg: I just started this yesterday.  It is an often recommended supplement for PMDD, so I thought I would give it a try.

 

11) Ginkgo Biloba - NOW Brand 60mg: I have been taking this intermittently as well, I'd say 3/4 weeks of each month, twice a day (AM and noon).

 

 

Lately, I have been considering Curcumin for antiinflammatory and longevity effects, and Ashwaganda for longevity and adaptogenic effects.

 

 

My questions:

 

1) How the hell does anyone go about differentiating the effects of all of this stuff?  As you can see, my experiments have been somewhat haphazard, and I have a difficult time deciding what has worked for me and why.  Since I began this experimentation 18 months ago, I have actually seen a lot of improvements in my mood issues.  My overall levels of anxiety and depression have decreased and my emotional stability has increased.  I have a difficult time deciding which, if any, of these interventions to attribute the improvement to.  On the flip side, I feel like my mental grogginess has, at times, increased.  I have some concern that regular use of pharmaceuticals like Phenibut and Armodafinil could be depleting neurotransmitters.  On the other hand, my father is narcolpetic and takes Armodafinil daily and has been doing so for years.  He's sharp as a tack, so I may be letting unreasonable fears intrude.  I think a cheif difficulty for me, in determining effects of supplements and drugs is the fact that my baseline biochemistry is already going through a constant fluctuation which I AM SURE is having an effect on my mood and cognition.  The PMDD symptoms predated any supplementation regime, and have persisted through it.  My symptoms do vary each month, and some months I have only 5 days of farily manageable symptoms.  Other months, like this last one, are two weeks of horror.  I don't think I changed anything major in my routine.  How do I account for this fluctuation when trying to determine what is working for me?

 

2) Is my fear of SSRI's warranted or not?  If I were to see a psychiatrist for PMDD the first line treatment would be low dose SSRI's during the luteal phase of my cycle each month.  SSRI's appear to work for PMDD by a different mechanism than they do for major depression, and the effects are evidently pretty immediate, which allows for patients to only take them for those two weeks each month.

 

 

 

That was really long.  I apologize and appreciate any and all input.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Recortes]

Hi CD23,

 

  I probably can't help too much, but I share with you a few things I know

 

----

 

1) Getting enough sleep/keeping a regular sleep schedule: this is the most effective intervention I have found for myself.  Unfortunately, it's not always possible.  Sometimes I have a sick child during the night, or have to wake up for clinicals at 4am, or study for a test all night.  I have also had to come to accept that I have a high sleep requirement.  I need 8-9 hours of sleep to function optimally, and getting 7 hours for even a couple of nights has a noticeable impact on my mood and cognition.

 

Re: I need sleep much as well. Hoewer, I've come to realize that a gret part of that need is psycological. If you  can sleep only 4 hours a day, forget about it and make your day. At the end I think the body adapts to that.  Think of it as an stressor, as weight lifting, and stressors with the right mind are good no bad. As a temporal help, taking adaptogens and mitochondrial boosters will help a lot (look at selfhacked.com site, very $$-driven but good). 

 

 

3) Cold exposure: I started taking daily cold showers about 2 months ago.  I have noticed an energizing and mood lifting effect.  This habit fell apart completely during my most recent luteal phase meltdown.  This last month was a bad one for me.

 

Re: completely over-rated, I retract of my initial enthusiasm and posts talking about this... I think cold showers are better than regular ones, but won't change your health. 

 

 

4) Phenibut: I know that this is not really a supplement, but actually a pharmaceutical.  I also know that that distinction is pretty pointless.  Phenibut was one of the first "nootropics" that I tried.  I put nootropic in quotes because I'm not sure it really qualifies.  It is a potent anxiolytic and sleep aid, though, for me.  I am very sensitive to it, and take about 150-300mg at bedtime.  More than that will make me too groggy the next day.  I have taken Phenibut 1-3 nights/week for about a year now.  I time it to coincide with anxiety inducing events like practical exams, or else take it when I know that I desperately need to have a good long catch-up sleep that night.

 

re: for me Gotu-Kola works very well for anxiety, and it's even healthy promoting GDNF. A low dose of lithium orothate may help you as well. 

 

5) Armodafinil 62.5 - 125mg: As you can tell by my dosage, I am pretty sensitive to this stuff too.  I have been using it intermittently to get me through when I just have to study or work and I have not had enough sleep or cannot drum up the motivation or concentration.  The 62.5mg dosage is generally sufficient to counteract mild sleep deprivation for several hours, or else to boost cognition and focus when I have had adequate sleep.  The 125mg dosage will overcome a pretty severe sleep deficit for about 6-8 hours.  Unfortunately, I find that the effectiveness decreases and the side effects increase with repeated usage.  I can generally use this for 2-3 days in a row, max, and then need to take a pretty good long break (say, a week) before effectiveness completely returns.

 

Re: take a pass with that, and try to find sustainable solutions. 

 

 

4) Holy Basil - Himalaya brand: I've taken this intermittently in the AM, prior to meals.  Generally on a week, off a week for about a year.  I think that I have noticed some anxiolytic and appetite suppressant effects.

 

Re: no experience

 

5) Rhodioloa - NOW brand 500mg: I usually alternate this with Holy Basil.  Once again, I think I've noticed some mood stabilizing effects, but I'm not sure.

 

Re: rhodiola is just to good to spoil it like this. Use it only when you really need energy or be awaken. Loses its efficacy if taken continuously. 

 

6) Bacopa: I tried this for about a weak and actually felt terrible.  Really depressed.  Should have tracked what time of month it was, but I didn't.

 

Re: for me it works 'a bit', but takes time to do something. If you want to take it, take it during 2 months or so, no more no less, and later cycle. Don't forget: cycle all the herbs. 

 

7) 5-HTP - NOW brand 50 mg: I usually take this at bedtime twice a week.  No noticeable effect.

 

Re: garbage can. Read Bruce Ames if not convinced. 

 

8) Alpha GPC - NOW brand 300 mg: Taken daily for about 5 months now.  No noticeable effect.

 

Re: I don't feel any effect from colline sources. Probably my eggs are enough.  

 

9) NAC - NOW brand 600mg: 1 day in the AM for the past 2 months.  No noticeable effect.

 

Re: NAC is great for so many things, but you will never feel anything. However, make it more productive taking at the same time Vitamin C, Milk Thistle and selenium. That way will increase your glutathione production. 

 

10) Calcium - NOW Brand 1200mg: I just started this yesterday.  It is an often recommended supplement for PMDD, so I thought I would give it a try.

 

Re: garbage can. It will probably go to the plaque of your coronary artheries. BTW check your vitamin D status and take magnesium. 

 

11) Ginkgo Biloba - NOW Brand 60mg: I have been taking this intermittently as well, I'd say 3/4 weeks of each month, twice a day (AM and noon).

 

Re: Makes nothing for me, but works well for my mother. So at your age probably don't do very much. I would replace it for a daily baby aspirin. 

       Mainly to get used to take babin aspirin during the whole life (anti-aging advice).

----------------------------------------------

 

 

My questions:

 

1) How the hell does anyone go about differentiating the effects of all of this stuff?  As you can see, my experiments have been somewhat haphazard, and I have a difficult time deciding what has worked for me and why.  Since I began this experimentation 18 months ago, I have actually seen a lot of improvements in my mood issues.  My overall levels of anxiety and depression have decreased and my emotional stability has increased.  I have a difficult time deciding which, if any, of these interventions to attribute the improvement to.  On the flip side, I feel like my mental grogginess has, at times, increased.  I have some concern that regular use of pharmaceuticals like Phenibut and Armodafinil could be depleting neurotransmitters.  On the other hand, my father is narcolpetic and takes Armodafinil daily and has been doing so for years.  He's sharp as a tack, so I may be letting unreasonable fears intrude.  I think a cheif difficulty for me, in determining effects of supplements and drugs is the fact that my baseline biochemistry is already going through a constant fluctuation which I AM SURE is having an effect on my mood and cognition.  The PMDD symptoms predated any supplementation regime, and have persisted through it.  My symptoms do vary each month, and some months I have only 5 days of farily manageable symptoms.  Other months, like this last one, are two weeks of horror.  I don't think I changed anything major in my routine.  How do I account for this fluctuation when trying to determine what is working for me?

 

Re: don't take regularly phenibut and armodafinil if you don't really need (prescription) 

 

 

 

My advice: 1) take Gotu-Kola and Saint John's Wort, the first good for anxiety and neurons, the second great for mood.  2) check your vitamin D status, if low supplement with vitamin D3, 3) take 400-800 mg. of magnesium citrate before going bed, 4) go to 23andme and find out any issue you have, later go to geneticgenie or mthfrsupport and find out your methylation status, it might be the root of your problems.  5) invest time in learning about supplements, for instance in examine.com.

 

Best wishes and health and sorry for the English typos. 

 

[CD23]

Thanks for the reply, Recortes.

 

1) The sleep need is not psychological.  I've tried for years to overcome it. No dice.  It's true that I can get used to less sleep with practice, and not feel upset that I didn't sleep as much.  My belief that I am OK, though, does not equate to me actually being OK.  I can be going along like I'm just fine and will suddenly lose control of my temper, or find myself horrendously depressed for no discernible reason (ie, crying uncontrollably).  Sleep will clear up these problems instantly.  There is pretty good research that tolerance for sleep deprivation is genetic and innate, but I find it nearly impossible to convince people who have a high tolerance that I simply DO NOT have tolerance for it.  There is also some evidence that the genes that are involved in reduced tolerance for sleep deprivation are connected to narcolepsy.  My father is narcolpetic.  Sleep deprivation makes me into a different person, a sometimes dangerous person.  After 10 years of trying to tinker with this in various ways, it's not something I doubt any more. 

 

3) Cold exposure - I think you may be right about this, but it's pretty harmless and easy to do, so what the hell.

 

4) I take a low dose of lithium orotate daily.  I guess I didn't really get into all of my normal vitamin supplements.  I follow Paul Jaminet's recommendations from "The Perfect Health Diet".  I haven't tried Gotu Kola, though.  I may look into that.

 

5) Why not use Armodafinil on occasion?  A lot of biohackers are swearing by it, and have some pretty convincing arguments for why.

 

5) Rhodioloa: I've been taking it about one out of every three weeks?  Is that too often?  I know you are supposed to rotate herbs, which is why I alternate it with Holy Basil.  I take a week off of all of them about 1 out of every 4 weeks.

 

6) Bacopa: I've heard it works well for some people, I just didn't feel well at all when I tried it, in fact worse than normal.  Maybe this is due to biochemical variation.  Then again, maybe I had just ovulated.  This is the confounding element that so often throws me off.

 

7) 5-HTP: I will read the source you sited.  I've kind of been taking this haphazardly anyway just because I happen to have a bottle of it left over from years ago when I used to use it prior to going to a party.

 

8) Alpha GPC: I am inconsistant with egg intake.  I have 3 a day a lot of the time, but sometimes go through long periods where I am too busy to do any cooking and they fall by the wayside.  I figure Alpha GPC can't hurt and will help cover the gaps.

 

9) NAC: I eat 2-3 Brazil nuts daily for selenium, and take Vitamin C daily as well.  I was thinking about adding Milk Thistle, actually, because it seems to do so many good things on it's own.  I didn't realize it might interact with NAC.  I'll look into that.

 

10) Calcium: I take 300-400mg Magnesium daily, generally based on bowel tolerance.  I've been doing this for 6 years now.  I used to have chronic constipation problems that this has completely resolved.  I find that I need more during the luteal phase of my cycle to prevent constipation, generally 400-500mg daily, which makes sense b/c progesterone is constipating.  I also take 1000-2000IU Vitamin D daily, during the winter.  During the summer I base intake on how much sun exposure I'm getting.  I make an attempt to get some midday sun exposure on bare skin daily when I can, and skip oral supplementation when I have been getting it regularly.  I have never actually had my vitamin D status checked, but have been supplementing this way for at least 8 years now.  I have no health insurance and am a student so have little money, but I'm sure I could shell out the money for the test I if put my mind to it.

 

11) Ginkgo Biloba: I haven't noticed much effect either, so I may DC it.  As far as the baby aspirin goes, I worry about taking those b/c I actually take ibuprofen or naproxen fairly regularly for headaches, menstrual pain, etc.  Not daily, or anything, but often enough that I don't want to add to the bleeding risk.

 

 

 

I have not tried Gotu Kola or St. John's Wort yet.  I will look into them.  I am on top of the Magnesium already, and may look into getting Vitamin D status checked, but am supplementing at a reasonable level, I think, right now. I have invested a lot of time into learning about supplements.  What I'm seeking now is help with tailoring that knowledge to my individual situation, which is much more complicated.

 

I respectfully decline to take your advice regarding Armodafinil and Phenibut without a better biochemically based explanation of your opinion.

 

 

I am interested in your information on genetics, and am going to look into that for sure.  This is hitting close to the kind of advice I am really seeking.  I am aware that everyone responds differently to both prescription meds and supplements due to biochemical and genetic variation, such as cytochrome P450 system differences.  My ability to discern the effects on my own system is additionally complicated by the fact that I have a baseline hormonal fluctuation going on each month that I am already aware is affecting my mood and cognition.

 

What I am really hoping to find here is someone who understands the biochemistry and neurochemistry associated with both supplements and with hormonal fluctuations.  Someone who is familiar with PMDD, or can quickly read up on the research and get a basic idea of what is going on would be even better.  I want to know how the neurotransmitter fluctuations I am having can best be modulated in a way that is most compatible with long term health.  My knowledge is broad enough but not deep enough to penetrate this fog.  If I can't get help here, I think my next step may be to stop taking everything except the baseline nutritional supplements (ie, Vitamin D, Mg, Selenium) and then make a spreadsheet and try to track effects of one thing at a time over the course of several monthly cycles, noting follicular and luteal phases to try and control for those.  Even that strategy doesn't seem perfect, though, b/c some of these supplements don't work as well in isolation.

 

Sigh.

 

 

 

 

 

[CD23]

Oooooh!  I just checked out the 23andMe and Genetic Genie sites!  This is exciting information!  I'm going to check it out for sure.

[β-Endorphin]

1) The sleep need is not psychological.  I've tried for years to overcome it. No dice.  It's true that I can get used to less sleep with practice, and not feel upset that I didn't sleep as much.  My belief that I am OK, though, does not equate to me actually being OK.  I can be going along like I'm just fine and will suddenly lose control of my temper, or find myself horrendously depressed for no discernible reason (ie, crying uncontrollably).  Sleep will clear up these problems instantly.  There is pretty good research that tolerance for sleep deprivation is genetic and innate, but I find it nearly impossible to convince people who have a high tolerance that I simply DO NOT have tolerance for it.  There is also some evidence that the genes that are involved in reduced tolerance for sleep deprivation are connected to narcolepsy.  My father is narcolpetic.  Sleep deprivation makes me into a different person, a sometimes dangerous person.  After 10 years of trying to tinker with this in various ways, it's not something I doubt any more.

 

The main issue here is that you are using Phenibut as a sleep aid. Phenibut is a hardcore addictive tranquilizer, a GABA agonist, in the same league as benzodiazepines and alcohol. In line with that, Phenibut withdrawal symptoms are probably in line with benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, which include: Severe insomnia, muscle spasms, tremors, Delirium tremens(google it), panic attacks, psychosis and many others. Additionally, Phenibut and benzodiazepines significantly worsen sleep quality with time(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25145751). Phenibut should really only be used on a very temporary basis, and only as a band-aid fix while you treat the underlying cause of the insomnia, not a cure.

 

3) Cold exposure - I think you may be right about this, but it's pretty harmless and easy to do, so what the hell.

 

I'm not too knowledgeable on cold exposure, but I do know that cold exposure increases glutamate release(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20561154), glutamate would then go on to bind to glutamate receptors, which would trigger the release of dopamine/norepinephrine. That may be why you feel energized after exposure to cold.

 

4) I take a low dose of lithium orotate daily.  I guess I didn't really get into all of my normal vitamin supplements.  I follow Paul Jaminet's recommendations from "The Perfect Health Diet".  I haven't tried Gotu Kola, though.  I may look into that.

 

Not much to say on this, as I have very little knowledge on lithium's mechanism of action.

5) Why not use Armodafinil on occasion?  A lot of biohackers are swearing by it, and have some pretty convincing arguments for why.

 

Similar to what I said with Phenibut, Armodafinil is a powerful and addictive stimulant. Even though it has an interesting mechanism of action, it still essentially affects your brain similarly to ritalin(a powerful stimulant that is derived from cocaine), as it acts as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and thus an indirect dopamine agonist. It is shown to be very addictive(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21157933) in animal studies, and can induce all of the desired abuse effects(euphoria etc.) that people abuse cocaine and amphetamine to feel in high enough doses. Additionally, there are no actual studies on long term safety(Using everyday for years, one 4 week study doesn't really count in this respect), so you really are gambling with your brain health when you are taking it regularly.

 

Again, its supposed to be used as a, very temporary, boost while you solve the underylying problem. Not a cure and not something to use even bi weekly.

5) Rhodioloa: I've been taking it about one out of every three weeks?  Is that too often?  I know you are supposed to rotate herbs, which is why I alternate it with Holy Basil.  I take a week off of all of them about 1 out of every 4 weeks.

 

 

Your use sounds fine, tolerance builds up quick to the Mao-a and Mao-b inhibiting activities of rhodiola, so don't increase use.
 

6) Bacopa: I've heard it works well for some people, I just didn't feel well at all when I tried it, in fact worse than normal.  Maybe this is due to biochemical variation.  Then again, maybe I had just ovulated.  This is the confounding element that so often throws me off.

 

 

Bacopa has a very weird mechanism of action, it can increase or decrease serotonin or dopamine. It surprised me that is affected you negatively. How did it make you feel specifically? Tired and unmotivated? Or Sad and Crying?

 

7) 5-HTP: I will read the source you sited.  I've kind of been taking this haphazardly anyway just because I happen to have a bottle of it left over from years ago when I used to use it prior to going to a party.

 

5-htp has been shown to cause heart valve damage, as it converts to serotonin in the blood stream, which goes on to activates serotonin receptors in the heart valve that stiffens it up. A much safer alternative is L-tryptophan, it does the same thing as 5-htp in the brain but it doesn't convert to serotonin in the blood nearly as much as 5-htp. It is one step before 5-htp in the brain synthesis of serotonin, which, for reference, is:

L-tryptophan-->5-htp-->Serotonin-->Melatonin

 

8) Alpha GPC: I am inconsistent with egg intake.  I have 3 a day a lot of the time, but sometimes go through long periods where I am too busy to do any cooking and they fall by the wayside.  I figure Alpha GPC can't hurt and will help cover the gaps.

This is fine. One other supplement to look into is CDP-Choline. It converts to choline and uridine inside the brain, instead of Alpha-GPC that only converts to choline. Choline+Uridine have been shown to reverse cognitive decline in animal models of dementia, and uridine itself has some benefits, like increasing dopamine release and modulating the dopamine/norepinephrine system.

 

9) NAC: I eat 2-3 Brazil nuts daily for selenium, and take Vitamin C daily as well.  I was thinking about adding Milk Thistle, actually, because it seems to do so many good things on it's own.  I didn't realize it might interact with NAC.  I'll look into that.

Just like l-tryptophan converts to serotonin, L-tyrosine converts to dopamine/norepinephrine. NAC stands for N-acetyl-tyrosine, a modified form of L-tyrosine that enters the brain faster. Unfortunately, their is a cap on how much dopamine/norepi that can be manufactured from L-tyrosine as the brain will reduce the amount of Tyrosine hydroxylase(the enzyme that converts tyrosine to dopamine) and downregulate dopamine receptors with repeated administration.

 

One way to counteract this is to take acetylcholine boosting supplements(Alpha-GPC, CDP-Choline etc.) before taking the NAC. Acetylcholine reduces dopamine release, this does 2 things: 1. It forces the brain to make dopamine receptors more sensitive to adjust to the drop in dopamine, and 2. It forces the brain to manufacture more dopamine(By increasing the amount of Tyrosine hydroxylase) to make up for the drop in dopamine. 

 

So if you take acetylcholine supplements everyday for a few days before taking a dopamine boosting supplement/drug, like NAC, Armodafinil, Amphetamine, Ritalin or Caffeine, you'll find that the dopamine boosting stuff is more effective than before. Also, because NAC increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, it increases the amount of dopamine available to stimulants(like the caffeine in Brazil nuts), thus making them more effective.

 

10) Calcium: I take 300-400mg Magnesium daily, generally based on bowel tolerance.  I've been doing this for 6 years now.  I used to have chronic constipation problems that this has completely resolved.  I find that I need more during the luteal phase of my cycle to prevent constipation, generally 400-500mg daily, which makes sense b/c progesterone is constipating.  I also take 1000-2000IU Vitamin D daily, during the winter.  During the summer I base intake on how much sun exposure I'm getting.  I make an attempt to get some midday sun exposure on bare skin daily when I can, and skip oral supplementation when I have been getting it regularly.  I have never actually had my vitamin D status checked, but have been supplementing this way for at least 8 years now.  I have no health insurance and am a student so have little money, but I'm sure I could shell out the money for the test I if put my mind to it.

Its always better to get vitamin and minerals in the form of food. So if you want to increase calcium intake, try drinking more milk or eating more nuts/seeds instead of taking supplements. Same thing with magnesium.

 

11) Ginkgo Biloba: I haven't noticed much effect either, so I may DC it.  As far as the baby aspirin goes, I worry about taking those b/c I actually take ibuprofen or naproxen fairly regularly for headaches, menstrual pain, etc.  Not daily, or anything, but often enough that I don't want to add to the bleeding risk.

Ginkgo biloba is one of those herbs that looks great on paper, but in reality has unreliable effects at best. Up to you if you want to keep taking it, I wouldn't put too much faith in it if I were you though.

 

I have not tried Gotu Kola or St. John's Wort yet.  I will look into them.  I am on top of the Magnesium already, and may look into getting Vitamin D status checked, but am supplementing at a reasonable level, I think, right now. I have invested a lot of time into learning about supplements.  What I'm seeking now is help with tailoring that knowledge to my individual situation, which is much more complicated.

 

I do not have much knowledge on hormones affecting psychiatry, but I do know quite a bit about neurochemistry. I'll try to help you out as much as I can, just ask away.

I respectfully decline to take your advice regarding Armodafinil and Phenibut without a better biochemically based explanation of your opinion.

Read my above responses, I hope you'll take them into consideration

 

 

I am interested in your information on genetics, and am going to look into that for sure.  This is hitting close to the kind of advice I am really seeking.  I am aware that everyone responds differently to both prescription meds and supplements due to biochemical and genetic variation, such as cytochrome P450 system differences.  My ability to discern the effects on my own system is additionally complicated by the fact that I have a baseline hormonal fluctuation going on each month that I am already aware is affecting my mood and cognition.

 

What I am really hoping to find here is someone who understands the biochemistry and neurochemistry associated with both supplements and with hormonal fluctuations.  Someone who is familiar with PMDD, or can quickly read up on the research and get a basic idea of what is going on would be even better.  I want to know how the neurotransmitter fluctuations I am having can best be modulated in a way that is most compatible with long term health.  My knowledge is broad enough but not deep enough to penetrate this fog.  If I can't get help here, I think my next step may be to stop taking everything except the baseline nutritional supplements (ie, Vitamin D, Mg, Selenium) and then make a spreadsheet and try to track effects of one thing at a time over the course of several monthly cycles, noting follicular and luteal phases to try and control for those.  Even that strategy doesn't seem perfect, though, b/c some of these supplements don't work as well in isolation.

 

Sigh.

 

 

Good luck with getting better.

[Flex]

Be careful with any blood thinning properties of SSRI´s and the herbs that You´re using. Although You seemingly dont exeed the recommended doses, a cumulative effect "could"* happen with perhaps a hemorrhage or bruises as a consequence.

Thus because some herbs do differently thinn the blood and, if taken in high doses, would have the same results as when taking Aspirin + Warfarin and perhaps + Plavix.

Tell Your MD what Youre using when asking about the SSRI and better double request(in the case of a sloppy Doc YNK) in e.g. a Pharmacy.

 

*Dont want to cause panic

Edited by Flex, 10 March 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[CD23]

Thank you so much for the response, B-Endorphin!  That was really helpful information.

 

Quote: "The main issue here is that you are using Phenibut as a sleep aid. Phenibut is a hardcore addictive tranquilizer, a GABA agonist, in the same league as benzodiazepines and alcohol. In line with that, Phenibut withdrawal symptoms are probably in line with benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms, which include: Severe insomnia, muscle spasms, tremors, Delirium tremens(google it), panic attacks, psychosis and many others. Additionally, Phenibut and benzodiazepines significantly worsen sleep quality with time(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25145751). Phenibut should really only be used on a very temporary basis, and only as a band-aid fix while you treat the underlying cause of the insomnia, not a cure."

 

I'm actually not using the Phenibut so much as a sleep aid as an anxiolytic.  It just happens to promote great sleep as well, and I always take it at night because I feel way too drowsy if I take it during the day.  I don't generally have problems with insomnia.  I have always fallen asleep quickly when I lay down in bed.  The only time I do have trouble with insomnia is when I am having a particularly rough bout of PMDD.  PMDD can give me short bouts of maintenance insomnia (I fall asleep easily but wake several times during the night) that last 3-7 days.  This is not a major issue for me unless I am sleep deprived due to other time constraints in my life and in desperate need of catch up sleep at some point during those several days. 

 

This may be beside your point, but I have not experienced any anxiety or insomnia symptoms associated with Phenibut use or withdrawal.  I use Phenibut equally throughout my cycle and still only experience anxiety during the luteal phase.  In fact, I'd say Pehnibut has helped because I am at least relaxed for 1-2 days of the week during my luteal phase if I am able to take Phenibut.  Prior to my phenibut usage, I was anxious for the whole 2 weeks.  

 

If you are familiar with Phenibut dosing, you will notice that I am taking much less than most people do.  Typical LOW doses are 500-1000mg.  I'm taking 150mg almost always.  I took 600 mg once this week, but I haven't done that for about 9 months prio, I'd say.  I actually only took that much because I had a nighttime cough that was keeping me awake (lingering cold virus), and I've found Phenibut to do a better job of suppressing a cough while allowing me to function the next day than any OTC cough suppressant.  I don't like taking that high of a dose, though, bc I feel way too groggy the next day.  Phenibut at doses higher than 150mg is actually rather unpleasant for me, and I have been using it at this low dose 1-3 times/week for over a year now without any desire to increase it, so I feel like the addiction potential is pretty damned low.

 

My main concern with Phenibut is the potential for long term down-regulation of GABA receptors, even at extremely low doses and relatively low frequency.  I'm having trouble finding any good information on this.   I know that using it daily, or at higher doses is recipe for down-regulation and withdrawal nightmares.  I've heard the horror stories.  I personally started using it, at the time, as a last ditch effort to avoid going on SSRI's for the PMDD.  It has helped me avoid that for at least this long, but I am still having a pretty hard time coping some months.  Phenibut only relieves the anxiety and sleep distrubances associated with PMDD, and then only for 2-3 days a week since I am careful to never to take it more often than that.  It has no effect on the fatigue, depression, food cravings or loss of libido.  Thus, I am here seeking help.

 

If you truly think the risks of intermittent very low dose Phenibut use outweigh it's benefits, and have some evidence to back up that claim, I'd love to know.  I am not blithely unconcerned about this at all, in fact it worries me a bit.  I just haven't seen any evidence yet or a good solid explanation for why I should stop taking it when it has benefited me.  

 

If I get the PMDD situation figured out some other way, the usefulness of the Phenibut may disappear, for the most part.

 

Quote: "Similar to what I said with Phenibut, Armodafinil is a powerful and addictive stimulant. Even though it has an interesting mechanism of action, it still essentially affects your brain similarly to ritalin(a powerful stimulant that is derived from cocaine), as it acts as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and thus an indirect dopamine agonist. It is shown to be very addictive(http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21157933) in animal studies, and can induce all of the desired abuse effects(euphoria etc.) that people abuse cocaine and amphetamine to feel in high enough doses. Additionally, there are no actual studies on long term safety(Using everyday for years, one 4 week study doesn't really count in this respect), so you really are gambling with your brain health when you are taking it regularly.

 

Again, its supposed to be used as a, very temporary, boost while you solve the underlying problem. Not a cure and not something to use even bi weekly."

 

My understanding is that Modafinil and Armodafinil actually have been shown to have very limited abuse potential, especially as compared to other stimulants such as amphetamines (ie, ritalin), animal studies not withstanding.  It is true that there are no good studies on long term outcomes, so I am aware of that risk and it does concern me, similar to how I feel about Phenibut.  then again, I know more than one person who is narcoleptic and takes a dose much higher than what I take every day, and has been doing so for many years now with no apparent ill effects.  There is also some research showing that short term use of Modafinil actually boosts neurogenesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25158676and may be neuroprotective.  A lot of the concern about modafinil use as a cognitive enhancer is related more to the sleep deficit that many people incur because they use the drug in order to pull all nighters, repeatedly.  Basically, some people are using is to avoid having to sleep as much, which is just not going to work.  That's not how I use it.  I use it when, for some other reason beyond my control, I have been unable to sleep enough the previous night.  I do also use it on occasion when I've had plenty of sleep but just want to power through some work.

 

So, once again, I do have some concerns about long term use, even intermittent and at low doses, but not many.  For me, so far (about the past year) it has been mostly a boon that has helped me cope with life stressors and sleep deprivation.  I can't wait until I have graduated and my son is a bit older and sleep deprivation is a less common part of my life.  Right now, though, I have not been able to find a way to completely eliminate it.  

 

I am not trying to cure anything with Armodafinil, I am using it as a band aid, hopefully a relatively benign one.  I am open, though, to more information regarding evidence of down-regualtion or damage with low, intermittent use.

 

 

Quote: "Your use sounds fine, tolerance builds up quick to the Mao-a and Mao-b inhibiting activities of rhodiola, so don't increase use."

 

That's what I thought about Rodhiola, but it's nice to have confirmation. 

 

Quote: "Bacopa has a very weird mechanism of action, it can increase or decrease serotonin or dopamine. It surprised me that is affected you negatively. How did it make you feel specifically? Tired and unmotivated? Or Sad and Crying?"

 

To be honest, I tried it a long time ago, maybe 9 months or so, and I can't remember exactly.  I just recall trying it for about a week and realizing that I felt really bad.  I think it was sad and unmotivated and overwhelmed.  I probably shouldn't have ruled it out so quickly, and should have taken note of the time of month.  I guess I just figured it certainly wasn't helping me, even if it wasn't the source of my mood shift, so I stopped taking it.  Does Bacopa generally work pretty quickly?  Should I have given it more time to take effect?

 

Quote: "5-htp has been shown to cause heart valve damage, as it converts to serotonin in the blood stream, which goes on to activates serotonin receptors in the heart valve that stiffens it up. A much safer alternative is L-tryptophan, it does the same thing as 5-htp in the brain but it doesn't convert to serotonin in the blood nearly as much as 5-htp. It is one step before 5-htp in the brain synthesis of serotonin, which, for reference, is:

L-tryptophan-->5-htp-->Serotonin-->Melatonin"

 

I will definitely stop taking this ASAP!  I hunted down the Bruce Ames info that Recortes pointed me towards, and it confirms what you are both saying quite convincingly!  This is going in the trash today!  Thank you!

 

Quote: "This is fine. One other supplement to look into is CDP-Choline. It converts to choline and uridine inside the brain, instead of Alpha-GPC that only converts to choline. Choline+Uridine have been shown to reverse cognitive decline in animal models of dementia, and uridine itself has some benefits, like increasing dopamine release and modulating the dopamine/norepinephrine system"

 

I'm definitely going to try this.  CDP Choline sounds like a great option.

 

Quote: Just like l-tryptophan converts to serotonin, L-tyrosine converts to dopamine/norepinephrine. NAC stands for N-acetyl-tyrosine, a modified form of L-tyrosine that enters the brain faster. Unfortunately, their is a cap on how much dopamine/norepi that can be manufactured from L-tyrosine as the brain will reduce the amount of Tyrosine hydroxylase(the enzyme that converts tyrosine to dopamine) and downregulate dopamine receptors with repeated administration.

 

One way to counteract this is to take acetylcholine boosting supplements(Alpha-GPC, CDP-Choline etc.) before taking the NAC. Acetylcholine reduces dopamine release, this does 2 things: 1. It forces the brain to make dopamine receptors more sensitive to adjust to the drop in dopamine, and 2. It forces the brain to manufacture more dopamine(By increasing the amount of Tyrosine hydroxylase) to make up for the drop in dopamine. 

 

So if you take acetylcholine supplements everyday for a few days before taking a dopamine boosting supplement/drug, like NAC, Armodafinil, Amphetamine, Ritalin or Caffeine, you'll find that the dopamine boosting stuff is more effective than before. Also, because NAC increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, it increases the amount of dopamine available to stimulants(like the caffeine in Brazil nuts), thus making them more effective."

 

This is excellent information!  Does this work if I am consuming both the NAC and the CDP-choline or Alpha GPC on a daily basis?  That's what I've been doing, and it sounds like I've basically been shooting myself in the foot.  I'm upping the dopamine with one and lowering it with the other.  Should I be cycling the NAC?  What about the Alpha GPC? I also drink caffeine (ie, coffee) pretty much daily, although I try to keep my maintenance dose low so that I can use the occasional increased dose for an extra boost.  This only works part of the time, since drinking more coffee seems to stop working at a certain point for me.  Are you saying that NAC works along the same pathways as caffeine and armodafinil?  If that is the case, it seems like I should not be using any two of those substances at the same time.  Is there any benefit to combining them, or is that more likely to just blow out my dopamine receptors even more quickly?  

 

If I do cycle the dopamine boosters (ie, stop caffeine and NAC and Armodafinil all for a few days and just take Alpha-GPC), am I likely to feel terrible and dopamine depleted for those few days?

 

Did you say "caffeine in Brazil Nuts?" Did you mean to say selenium?  As far as I'm aware, Brazil nuts don't have any caffeine.

 

Quote: "Its always better to get vitamin and minerals in the form of food. So if you want to increase calcium intake, try drinking more milk or eating more nuts/seeds instead of taking supplements. Same thing with magnesium."

 

Always sound advice.  I already drink 8ozs of milk and eat 8 ozs of yogurt a day, not to mention I put cream in coffee and eat butter and cheese.  I also eat 2-3 Brazil Nuts, and a small handful each of almonds, pecans, and macadamia nuts most days.  I am restarting the habit of drinking bone broths and cooking rice in bone broths, as of this week, in order to increase mineral intake.  I have to say, though, that I have had most of these dietary habits for years now.  In fact, I used to be even more adamant about bone broth and raw dairy consumption than I am now (I followed a pretty strict preconception diet for two years prior to the birth of my son, based on maximizing nutrient intake).  I still didn't solve the constipation issue until I started supplementing Mg+.  I have never tried taking a calcium supplement, but I figured it was worth a try since it has shown some effectiveness in the PMDD research.  I don't know what it means that I seem to need a Mg+ supplement and food sources just don't cut it for me.  Absorption issue?

 

Quote: "Ginkgo biloba is one of those herbs that looks great on paper, but in reality has unreliable effects at best. Up to you if you want to keep taking it, I wouldn't put too much faith in it if I were you though."

 

Meh.  Pretty sure I'm going to ditch it at this point.  I never had much faith in it to start with.  Thanks for confirming:)

 

Quote: I do not have much knowledge on hormones affecting psychiatry, but I do know quite a bit about neurochemistry. I'll try to help you out as much as I can, just ask away."

 

Thank you!  I appreciate all of your input so far, and don't mean to be contradictory about the Armodafinil and Phenibut.  I am actually pretty cautious and averse to the use of pharmaceuticals, as evidenced by my continued aversion to trying SSRI's for the PMDD.  I researched as much as I could about the more worrisome substances before giving them a go, but I readily admit that my background understanding of biology is just not deep enough to really plumb the depths of these discussions.  I also realize that I asked for advice regarding long term health and you are seeking to provide that.  I would do well to humble myself and listen.  I guess I'm just trying to provoke a more nuanced discussion of risk/benefits analyses.

 

Just to emphasize the point, I didn't even drink alcohol until I was 26, or start drinking coffee or taking any form of caffeine until I was 32!  I am pretty sensitive to most substances, and was involved in the natural foods/alternative health/paleo communities long before I began delving into the edgy nootropics realm.  As I mentioned, the past 5 years have been particularly stressful and pushed me into trying some things I never would have considered before.  I had been pretty on top of evolutionary diets, regular exercise, and relaxation techniques for years prior to that.  Nonetheless, I was feeling pretty desperate about 18 months ago.  Things have settled out quite a bit since then.  

 

Actually, I would say that I am about back to baseline now, as far as my mental health goes, despite the fact that many of those life stressors are still in place.  

 

The main thing I am trying to address, at this point, is that my baseline problem with PMDD has never really gone away.  It has been there at least since my mid-20's, or at least that's when I noticed the pattern related to my cycle.  I certainly went through bouts of depression and anxiety prior to that, but had never paid much attention to the timing.  Most likely, this issue has been with me since I was 11 and started menstruating.  I certainly never had issues with depression or anxiety before that.  I was an easy going kid.  When I keep all of my diet, sleep, supplements, etc. in balance, the PMDD is usually manageable, in the strictest sense of the word.  I'm able to go to work or school most days. I'm able to get up and get dressed and take care of my son and help my mother.  The trouble is, I'm just not very happy.  I'm battling fatigue and depression and anxiety for one to two weeks out of every month, and my relationships do suffer from it.  I am much less patient with my son, who is a really great kid, BTW, and with my other family and friends.  I also completely lose all interest in dating or relationships during that time.  I just feel so down and so utterly lacking in libido.  This is not helping my dating life at all, and I am interested in eventually getting into another relationship.  I actually love being a mother and would like to have another kid someday.  This seems less likely to happen if my motivation to date is only present half of the time.

 

I've spent years trying to battle these symptoms with a combination of natural health health initiatives and Zen-like acceptance.  Lately, my family has been encouraging me to try medical intervention (ie SSRI's or BC pills, SSRI's have better evidence for PMDD so I would likely go that route).  Reaching out to this community is a last ditch effort to find a better solution before I start in on the drugs.  I'm hoping that I can fine tune my nutrition/supplementation more than I have been able to to this point.

 

I'm also really hoping that someone on here has a background that includes the neurobiological effects of hormones!!

 

Anyone want to start a poll to figure out what percentage of members here are female?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[β-Endorphin]

 

I'm actually not using the Phenibut so much as a sleep aid as an anxiolytic.  It just happens to promote great sleep as well, and I always take it at night because I feel way too drowsy if I take it during the day.  I don't generally have problems with insomnia.  I have always fallen asleep quickly when I lay down in bed.  The only time I do have trouble with insomnia is when I am having a particularly rough bout of PMDD.  PMDD can give me short bouts of maintenance insomnia (I fall asleep easily but wake several times during the night) that last 3-7 days.  This is not a major issue for me unless I am sleep deprived due to other time constraints in my life and in desperate need of catch up sleep at some point during those several days.

 

This may be beside your point, but I have not experienced any anxiety or insomnia symptoms associated with Phenibut use or withdrawal.  I use Phenibut equally throughout my cycle and still only experience anxiety during the luteal phase.  In fact, I'd say Pehnibut has helped because I am at least relaxed for 1-2 days of the week during my luteal phase if I am able to take Phenibut.  Prior to my phenibut usage, I was anxious for the whole 2 weeks.  

 

If you are familiar with Phenibut dosing, you will notice that I am taking much less than most people do.  Typical LOW doses are 500-1000mg.  I'm taking 150mg almost always.  I took 600 mg once this week, but I haven't done that for about 9 months prio, I'd say.  I actually only took that much because I had a nighttime cough that was keeping me awake (lingering cold virus), and I've found Phenibut to do a better job of suppressing a cough while allowing me to function the next day than any OTC cough suppressant.  I don't like taking that high of a dose, though, bc I feel way too groggy the next day.  Phenibut at doses higher than 150mg is actually rather unpleasant for me, and I have been using it at this low dose 1-3 times/week for over a year now without any desire to increase it, so I feel like the addiction potential is pretty damned low.

 

My main concern with Phenibut is the potential for long term down-regulation of GABA receptors, even at extremely low doses and relatively low frequency.  I'm having trouble finding any good information on this.   I know that using it daily, or at higher doses is recipe for down-regulation and withdrawal nightmares.  I've heard the horror stories.  I personally started using it, at the time, as a last ditch effort to avoid going on SSRI's for the PMDD.  It has helped me avoid that for at least this long, but I am still having a pretty hard time coping some months.  Phenibut only relieves the anxiety and sleep distrubances associated with PMDD, and then only for 2-3 days a week since I am careful to never to take it more often than that.  It has no effect on the fatigue, depression, food cravings or loss of libido.  Thus, I am here seeking help.

 

If you truly think the risks of intermittent very low dose Phenibut use outweigh it's benefits, and have some evidence to back up that claim, I'd love to know.  I am not blithely unconcerned about this at all, in fact it worries me a bit.  I just haven't seen any evidence yet or a good solid explanation for why I should stop taking it when it has benefited me.  

 

If I get the PMDD situation figured out some other way, the usefulness of the Phenibut may disappear, for the most part.

 

I apologize, I am not too familiar with the dosages and I must have missed the part where you stated that you were using it intermittently. Low doses used intermittently won't necessarily bring on withdrawal, but they probably would induce GABA-B downregulation. There are no studies to prove this, but one can make assumptions. Agonism of any receptor almost always downregulates the receptors and forces the brain to slow down or completely stop production of the neurotransmitter that binds to it. For example, agonism of GABA-B receptors with Phenibut would force the brain to not only downregulate those receptors, but also slow down production and reduce release of GABA itself. The brain also seems to upregulate receptors at a much slower rate than it downregulates, though if you're using low doses intermittently, it may not be an issue.

 

 

My understanding is that Modafinil and Armodafinil actually have been shown to have very limited abuse potential, especially as compared to other stimulants such as amphetamines (ie, ritalin), animal studies not withstanding.  It is true that there are no good studies on long term outcomes, so I am aware of that risk and it does concern me, similar to how I feel about Phenibut.  then again, I know more than one person who is narcoleptic and takes a dose much higher than what I take every day, and has been doing so for many years now with no apparent ill effects.  There is also some research showing that short term use of Modafinil actually boosts neurogenesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25158676and may be neuroprotective.  A lot of the concern about modafinil use as a cognitive enhancer is related more to the sleep deficit that many people incur because they use the drug in order to pull all nighters, repeatedly.  Basically, some people are using is to avoid having to sleep as much, which is just not going to work.  That's not how I use it.  I use it when, for some other reason beyond my control, I have been unable to sleep enough the previous night.  I do also use it on occasion when I've had plenty of sleep but just want to power through some work.

 

So, once again, I do have some concerns about long term use, even intermittent and at low doses, but not many.  For me, so far (about the past year) it has been mostly a boon that has helped me cope with life stressors and sleep deprivation.  I can't wait until I have graduated and my son is a bit older and sleep deprivation is a less common part of my life.  Right now, though, I have not been able to find a way to completely eliminate it.  

 

I am not trying to cure anything with Armodafinil, I am using it as a band aid, hopefully a relatively benign one.  I am open, though, to more information regarding evidence of down-regualtion or damage with low, intermittent use.

 

 

 

Again, I believe I may have jumped the gun and got off a little strong in the beginning, I apologize. Armodafinil is not as addictive as other stimulants, but its long term health effects remain unknown. It has a very weird mechanism of action that has not really been fully understood yet, and even though it seems to have some short term neuroprotective effects, what of long term use? There have been drugs that have health benefits in the short term but cause health damage in the long term. I personally am very wary of the brand new nootropics that aren't fully understood yet. Many drugs in the past took many decades of research before their negative long term health effects were discovered.

 

If you are going to take a stimulant, have you considered more old-school, traditional ones(Like Dextroamphetamine, Ritalin etc.). They may be more addictive, but have substantially more research done on them. They also have a much longer history of human use, something that is very important for determining long term health effects. In terms of health benefits, there is evidence that dextroamphetamine may promote neurogenesis as well(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23178911). Dextroamphetamine also seems to normalise and promote brain function in people with ADHD(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23247506), though it is not known if this extends to non-ADHD people. Just something to consider, assuming you have legal access to other stimulants, of course.

 

One thing I’d like to note for future reference; Anecdotal evidence is absolutely worthless when it comes to medical safety. This is because they take place in an uncontrolled environment with 1000s of other factors other than the drug itself as well as other drugs.

 

To be honest, I tried it a long time ago, maybe 9 months or so, and I can't remember exactly.  I just recall trying it for about a week and realizing that I felt really bad.  I think it was sad and unmotivated and overwhelmed.  I probably shouldn't have ruled it out so quickly, and should have taken note of the time of month.  I guess I just figured it certainly wasn't helping me, even if it wasn't the source of my mood shift, so I stopped taking it.  Does Bacopa generally work pretty quickly?  Should I have given it more time to take effect?

 

 

Studies on bacopas effect are usually poorly designed. But most of them seem to state that bacopa usually takes month to have any effect. On Top of that, it only seems to affect memory, and has no effect on mood in depressed patient.

 

I will definitely stop taking this ASAP!  I hunted down the Bruce Ames info that Recortes pointed me towards, and it confirms what you are both saying quite convincingly!  This is going in the trash today!  Thank you!

 

 

Good. L-tryptophan is still a decent supplement though. So don’t discount serotonergic supplements altogether.

 

This is excellent information!  Does this work if I am consuming both the NAC and the CDP-choline or Alpha GPC on a daily basis?  That's what I've been doing, and it sounds like I've basically been shooting myself in the foot.  I'm upping the dopamine with one and lowering it with the other.  Should I be cycling the NAC?  What about the Alpha GPC? I also drink caffeine (ie, coffee) pretty much daily, although I try to keep my maintenance dose low so that I can use the occasional increased dose for an extra boost.  This only works part of the time, since drinking more coffee seems to stop working at a certain point for me.  Are you saying that NAC works along the same pathways as caffeine and armodafinil?  If that is the case, it seems like I should not be using any two of those substances at the same time.  Is there any benefit to combining them, or is that more likely to just blow out my dopamine receptors even more quickly?  

Taking both Dopaminergic(dopamine boosting) and Cholinergic(Acetylcholine boosting) supplements aren’t necessarily shooting yourself in the foot. Its good to have a balance of both of these neurotransmitters, but if you want an emphasis on either one then you can reduce or eliminate one or the other.

 

If I do cycle the dopamine boosters (ie, stop caffeine and NAC and Armodafinil all for a few days and just take Alpha-GPC), am I likely to feel terrible and dopamine depleted for those few days?

 

Probably, yes. But this is a requirement for your brain to repair and resensitize dopamine receptors. What goes up must come down, if you boost dopamine levels with Armodafinil, NAC, caffeine etc, then you’ll have to crash eventually. In fact, taking choline on these days off will probably make the depression even worse as they reduce dopamine release even further. But once you get through this period of recovery, your dopamine receptors will be really sensitive and dopaminergic substances will be much more effective than before.

 

Did you say "caffeine in Brazil Nuts?" Did you mean to say selenium?  As far as I'm aware, Brazil nuts don't have any caffeine.

 

 

I apologize, I mistakenly thought Brazil nuts were Kola nuts for some reason.

 

Always sound advice.  I already drink 8ozs of milk and eat 8 ozs of yogurt a day, not to mention I put cream in coffee and eat butter and cheese.  I also eat 2-3 Brazil Nuts, and a small handful each of almonds, pecans, and macadamia nuts most days.  I am restarting the habit of drinking bone broths and cooking rice in bone broths, as of this week, in order to increase mineral intake.  I have to say, though, that I have had most of these dietary habits for years now.  In fact, I used to be even more adamant about bone broth and raw dairy consumption than I am now (I followed a pretty strict preconception diet for two years prior to the birth of my son, based on maximizing nutrient intake).  I still didn't solve the constipation issue until I started supplementing Mg+.  I have never tried taking a calcium supplement, but I figured it was worth a try since it has shown some effectiveness in the PMDD research.  I don't know what it means that I seem to need a Mg+ supplement and food sources just don't cut it for me.  Absorption issue?

 

 

It could be an absorption issue, or it could be you’re simply not getting enough magnesium in your diet. In our society, what is considered a “healthy diet”, tends to be very deficient in minerals and other things. Personally, I took the recommended daily values of mineral, vitamins and macronutrients of Health Canada’s website, then I mapped out a list of fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts and animal products and the amounts of each that I should eat every day to get the recommended daily value of everything. Since I did this, I’ve been feeling so much better and I stopped taking my multivitamin and mineral supplements.

 

To give an example of a nutrient deficiency I have experienced, i used to get headaches that were cured after taking zinc supplements. After mapping out my diet on the recommended daily value chart, I found that my previous diet was highly deficient in zinc, even though I was eating all “healthy foods” like berries, nuts, fruits, vegetables, whole grain bread etc. After increasing the amount of high zinc foods and rearranging my diet to get adequate levels of zinc, my headaches disappeared and I haven’t taken a zinc supplement in over 6 months so far.

 

Though to be fair, mapping out your diet does take some time and you do seem to have a busy lifestyle. Just try to do it if you can.

 

 

Thank you!  I appreciate all of your input so far, and don't mean to be contradictory about the Armodafinil and Phenibut.  I am actually pretty cautious and averse to the use of pharmaceuticals, as evidenced by my continued aversion to trying SSRI's for the PMDD.  I researched as much as I could about the more worrisome substances before giving them a go, but I readily admit that my background understanding of biology is just not deep enough to really plumb the depths of these discussions.  I also realize that I asked for advice regarding long term health and you are seeking to provide that.  I would do well to humble myself and listen.  I guess I'm just trying to provoke a more nuanced discussion of risk/benefits analyses.

No, its fine. I appreciate that you’re offering opposing studies and information. I try to keep an open mind to both sides, and its nice of you to point out some opposing information I missed.

 

Just to emphasize the point, I didn't even drink alcohol until I was 26, or start drinking coffee or taking any form of caffeine until I was 32!  I am pretty sensitive to most substances, and was involved in the natural foods/alternative health/paleo communities long before I began delving into the edgy nootropics realm.  As I mentioned, the past 5 years have been particularly stressful and pushed me into trying some things I never would have considered before.  I had been pretty on top of evolutionary diets, regular exercise, and relaxation techniques for years prior to that.  Nonetheless, I was feeling pretty desperate about 18 months ago.  Things have settled out quite a bit since then.  

 

Actually, I would say that I am about back to baseline now, as far as my mental health goes, despite the fact that many of those life stressors are still in place.  

 

The main thing I am trying to address, at this point, is that my baseline problem with PMDD has never really gone away.  It has been there at least since my mid-20's, or at least that's when I noticed the pattern related to my cycle.  I certainly went through bouts of depression and anxiety prior to that, but had never paid much attention to the timing.  Most likely, this issue has been with me since I was 11 and started menstruating.  I certainly never had issues with depression or anxiety before that.  I was an easy going kid.  When I keep all of my diet, sleep, supplements, etc. in balance, the PMDD is usually manageable, in the strictest sense of the word.  I'm able to go to work or school most days. I'm able to get up and get dressed and take care of my son and help my mother.  The trouble is, I'm just not very happy.  I'm battling fatigue and depression and anxiety for one to two weeks out of every month, and my relationships do suffer from it.  I am much less patient with my son, who is a really great kid, BTW, and with my other family and friends.  I also completely lose all interest in dating or relationships during that time.  I just feel so down and so utterly lacking in libido.  This is not helping my dating life at all, and I am interested in eventually getting into another relationship.  I actually love being a mother and would like to have another kid someday.  This seems less likely to happen if my motivation to date is only present half of the time.

 

I've spent years trying to battle these symptoms with a combination of natural health health initiatives and Zen-like acceptance.  Lately, my family has been encouraging me to try medical intervention (ie SSRI's or BC pills, SSRI's have better evidence for PMDD so I would likely go that route).  Reaching out to this community is a last ditch effort to find a better solution before I start in on the drugs.  I'm hoping that I can fine tune my nutrition/supplementation more than I have been able to to this point.

Great to hear you're less stressed out. Good luck to you, hope you feel better soon.

 

[Recortes]

@CD23,

 

 you have mentioned several times the word  "constipation". Cleary, you have an altered gut flora, and mineral supps. won't fix the cause of it. 

You need much fiber and probiotics, mainly in form of home-made fermented food. You'll find plenty of good info on this here drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com and 

 coolinginflammation.blogspot.com

 

Best. 

[CD23]

Flex: that is great information that I will keep in mind if I decide to go that route.  Thanks!

 

Recortes: You would not believe the amount of fermented foods I have consumed in my life.  I jumped on the fermented foods bandwagon back in 2002, and was pretty religious about it for about the next 8 years.  I followed the WAPF diet fairly closely throughout most of that period, especially their pre-conception and pregnancy diet.  Fermented foods and fiber abound in WAPF http://www.westonapr...ursing-mothers/.  Things fell apart a bit after the birth of my son b/c he had terrible colic and cried 8 hours/day for the first 3 months.  My carefully constructed diet devolved into a frenzy of elimination diet attempts that eventually had me eating nothing but white rice, peeled pears, and chicken in an attempt to avoid salicylates, of all the silly things, hoping that would stop his endless heartbreaking screaming.    Mind you, he did stop crying when I started that diet, but that happened to coincide with his turning 3 months old, which is traditionally the point at which colic settles down.  I did resume my old diet, including fermented foods, gradually over the next couple of years, and follow it much more half heartedly, to be honest, at this point.  I lean more towards The Perfect Health Diet, designed by the Jaminet's, these days.  I like their science background and evolutionary perspective.  They favor fermented foods as well.

 

I'm not religious about any diet anymore, to tell you the truth.  I try to eat an evolutionary diet 80% of the time and just chill out about the rest (thank you Mark Sisson).  I stock the house with wholesome foods, no junk, and require my son to at least try everything on his plate at meals.  When he eats at a birthday party, though, I let him stuff his face with cake.  He's 4 years old now and perfectly healthy, BTW.

 

During all of my fermented foods efforts, BTW, I was still constipated at times, until I started the Mg+ supplementation.

 

 

[CD23]

B-Endorphin, how do you make those great quote boxes?

 

I really like your diet mapping strategy!  Maybe I'll tackle that someday.  For the time being, as I mentioned previously, I generally try to follow Paul Jaminet's recommendations on foods and supplemental nutrients.  What I'd really loooove to do someday, is get all of the appropriate testing done to identify potential deficiencies that are particular to me, and then try to build a diet based around that in addition to just the solid base that I aim for these days.

 

On a side note, when I lived in California and was trying to boost my nutrition prior to conceiving my child, my ex and I used to walk to the farmer's market each week to eat fresh oysters, just for zinc content.  I miss being able to do that.

 

The information on Dopaminergic and Cholinergic substances and how best to make use of them is super helpful.  I feel like I have a much better understanding of all of that then I did before.  One more question, any advice on how to deal with the caffeine withdrawal headaches if I do decide to skip caffeine for a few days to reboot receptors?  I think I could time it all so that the modd effects aren't too detrimental.  Those headaches are pretty annoying, though.

 

I also really appreciate the more in depth look at Phenibut and Armodafinil.  I had never considered Ritalin as a "safer" alternative.  It's an interesting idea, for sure.  I actually have no idea how I'd get ahold of Ritalin.  Modafinil and it's ilk are pretty easy to buy online.  All in all, I think I'm going to try to lean out from those substances, at least a bit more.  I haven't used Armodafinil in about a week now.  I've been getting over a cold and just making damned sure I get enough sleep each night.  It's nice to be well rested, although the virus is still causing some fatigue.

 

I think I may accidentally gotten a hold of some type of amphetamine years ago, once again back in the brief period of time when I was occasionally a bit of a partyer.  I thought I was taking something else, but it did NOT feel like it was supposed to.  I actually had a brief panic attack, that devolved into a week-long anxiety attack.  I have been wary of the stuff ever since.

 

Then again, when I first started drinking coffee, one cup could put me into a panic attack too.  Now, I can knock down two and fall asleep if I'm tired.  Perhaps I shouldn't judge all amphetamines on how some random (likely high) dose affected my virginal brain years ago.

 

Thanks again!  I appreciate all of your input!

 

[Recortes]

@CD23,

 

 the only thing left  that comes to my mind to check. On PMMD and related stuff take a look at Ray Peat singular views http://raypeat.com/articles/ , there are quite a lot pages talking about him on google, and I remember some of them being really good, with women very knowledgeable with tough issues like you, although it's a subject I've never followed. 

 

As for the fermented food, looks like is not enough for you and need carefull investigation. Check the links I passed before, and consider as well a stool test to spot any missing species or same overgrowth. The best test in existence is metametrix/genove. 

 

Best wishes. 

[β-Endorphin]

B-Endorphin, how do you make those great quote boxes?

Haha I just highlight text and click the button up on the text edit buttons that looks like a speech bubble from a comic strip.

 

I really like your diet mapping strategy!  Maybe I'll tackle that someday.  For the time being, as I mentioned previously, I generally try to follow Paul Jaminet's recommendations on foods and supplemental nutrients.  What I'd really loooove to do someday, is get all of the appropriate testing done to identify potential deficiencies that are particular to me, and then try to build a diet based around that in addition to just the solid base that I aim for these days.

 

On a side note, when I lived in California and was trying to boost my nutrition prior to conceiving my child, my ex and I used to walk to the farmer's market each week to eat fresh oysters, just for zinc content.  I miss being able to do that.

Thats fine, I understand mapping out a diet can be a bit of work. It doesn't have to necessarily be all at once though. For example, you can plan out your daily intake for one specific mineral every week or something like that. I don't trust vitamin and mineral testing, I find them untrustworthy. When I got tested, my zinc levels came back normal, even though I has highly deficient at the time. Maybe the tests are inaccurate, or maybe the human body is just really good at covering up deficiencies on paper, but I still didn't find them very helpful.

 

The information on Dopaminergic and Cholinergic substances and how best to make use of them is super helpful.  I feel like I have a much better understanding of all of that then I did before.  One more question, any advice on how to deal with the caffeine withdrawal headaches if I do decide to skip caffeine for a few days to reboot receptors?  I think I could time it all so that the modd effects aren't too detrimental.  Those headaches are pretty annoying, though.

You could take Serotonergic supplements on your days off. Low serotonin has been linked to headaches, and caffeine's headache relieving effect is supposedly because caffeine boosts serotonin levels temporarily(among other things). The headache that you are experiencing during withdrawal could be your Serotonin levels crashing after being artificially elevated for a while with caffeine. L-tryptophan would be the best supplement for boosting serotonin in this respect. Just like acetylcholine, however, serotonin may also lower dopamine levels temporarily, so acetylcholine + serotonin could be a recipe for feeling very apathetic and unmotivated/unfocused. But if you do go through with it, you'll come out the other side with very sensitive dopamine/norepi receptors and stimulants like caffeine will be noticeably and substantially more powerful than before.

 

I also really appreciate the more in depth look at Phenibut and Armodafinil.  I had never considered Ritalin as a "safer" alternative.  It's an interesting idea, for sure.  I actually have no idea how I'd get ahold of Ritalin.  Modafinil and it's ilk are pretty easy to buy online.  All in all, I think I'm going to try to lean out from those substances, at least a bit more.  I haven't used Armodafinil in about a week now.  I've been getting over a cold and just making damned sure I get enough sleep each night.  It's nice to be well rested, although the virus is still causing some fatigue.

Ritalin, and amphetamine, are controlled substances(Both Schedule II). Making them illegal to possess without a prescription. Armodafinil is also a controlled substance(Schedule IV), so I assumed you were prescribed by a doctor. My advice is only really valid if you are obtaining this legally(ie. with a prescription)

 

I think I may accidentally gotten a hold of some type of amphetamine years ago, once again back in the brief period of time when I was occasionally a bit of a partyer.  I thought I was taking something else, but it did NOT feel like it was supposed to.  I actually had a brief panic attack, that devolved into a week-long anxiety attack.  I have been wary of the stuff ever since.

I have said this to people time and time again, Street "amphetamine" and 99.9% pure pharmaceutical amphetamine are 2 entirely different drugs. Most street amphetamine probably contains something like 10-20% actual amphetamine, and 80-90% contaminants like "cuts"(baby powder, baking soda, salt etc.) and other drugs(cocaine, ephedrine, heck even caffeine powder). In fact, there's a very great chance that you got a amphetamine, not dextroamphetamine itself. There's an entire amphetamine drug class(commonly called "substituted amphetamines") with many drugs, anything from stimulants(ex Dextroamphetamine) to empathogens(ex. MDMA), even powerful hallucinogens(ex. DOB). This drug class also contains nasal decongestants(ex. Ephedrine) that produces a stimulant effect at high doses, but the stimulant effect produced at this dose is packaged alongside extreme anxiety/panic attacks, anger, very high blood pressure etc. A drug dealer can sell anything from MDMA to Ephedrine(and any of the 1000s of substituted amphetamines in between), and still call it an "amphetamine".

 

I can honestly say, if you've never tried pharmaceutical Dextroamphetamine, you've never taken Dextroamphetamine before. Now in terms of pharmaceutical Dextroamphetamine; whether it produces anxiety is dependent on what formulation is used and on your personal reaction to it. Adderall(3:1 formulation of Dextroamphetamine and Levoamphetamine) and Ritalin(not an amphetamine but still a stimulant) can be "rough", in that they can make you very anxious and jittery. But Dexedrine(Pure dextroamphetamine) or Vyvanse(Dexedrine extended release basically) are extremely smooth stimulants. A decent portion of people actually find Dexedrine anxiolytic!, as it makes them "calm, awake and put together". But it all depends on your personal reaction to it. Some people have gotten jittery/anxious from dex, but the numbers are few and far between. Its worth a try, again, if you can obtain it legally.

 

From my personal experience(I take D-amphetamine daily for my ADHD), D-amphetamine has been a very smooth drug for me. It makes me focused, and it also helps quite a bit with my SAD. I find I am much more confident and "in-control" in social situations, but maybe thats because i'm not hyper, and I can follow the conversation without getting lost in a daydream or get distracted.

 

 

Then again, when I first started drinking coffee, one cup could put me into a panic attack too.  Now, I can knock down two and fall asleep if I'm tired.  Perhaps I shouldn't judge all amphetamines on how some random (likely high) dose affected my virginal brain years ago.

Honestly, again from my personal experience, caffeine is a much "rougher" stimulant than D-amphetamine when it comes to jitteriness and anxiousness. When I drank coffee for the first time I became edgy and anxious. When I took D-amphetamine for the first time, it made me feel almost drunk(Loosened inhibitions, feeling happy and relaxed, socialising comes easy etc.) but strangely awake and focused. I felt awake in a calm sense, like I just woke up from getting really good night sleep. Instead of the edgy, hyper "awakeness" that caffeine gives me. It really is worth a try if you can obtain it legally. Otherwise, stay away.

 

Thanks again!  I appreciate all of your input!

No problem! I'm glad to make my knowledge of use.

Edited by β-Endorphin, 12 March 2015 - 01:56 PM.