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Sleep maintenance insomnia (waking up in middle of night)

insomnia

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#1 cg8732b

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 02:20 PM


Hey guys, So I've been having a strange type of insomnia for the last 5 weeks where I can fall asleep fine but I wake up every day between 3-5am. Typically I wake-up with an erection and I'm unable to fall asleep again for several hours (3-4).

 

I've tried a lot of different things to kick this cycle, GABA, melatonin, stopping all caffeine intake, sleeping on back instead of side, yoga, stopping all alcohol, stopping all supplements (no more nootropics :(), meditating, no TV/computer before bed, increased Vit D, higher vit C, using a 10k LUX lamp in morning, digeredoo, tusli tea, catnip tea... Almost anything I can think of I'm trying. Today I plan on giving blood just to see if it makes a difference. I had bloodwork done 3 months ago and everything was normal however 6 months ago I had it done and I had high iron levels. I assume it's been resolved since I stopped using my cast iron pans.

 

Does anyone have ANY ideas to help? When I search online for treatment it's just the usual "healthy sleep hygiene things" which were obviously the first thing's I tried such as no TV, no napping, and no caffeine. They also mention possible depression. If it is depression then I'm unaware of it. My mom is bipolar and also has a lot of difficulty falling asleep. Not sure if I have something related to her since we share 50% of the same DNA :P

 

Anyways any input would be appreciated. I've been on 4-5 hrs of sleep for over a month now after functioning 30 years of my life on 7-8. I'm doing surprisingly good however I can tell it's causing issues overall.

 

BTW - When I wake up I always have a hard hard erection that won't go away till I get out of bed. Not sure if this signals that its hormone related or possible cortisol related. The only things that have changed around the same time that this started is I began indoor swimming withing the same period (2 weeks prior to it starting) twice a week. I was also taking creatine for 2 months prior to it starting but stopped probably a week before it began.

 

Thanks for any input and sorry for the long post.



#2 cg8732b

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 02:25 PM

My current theory is it's hormon related, I found these two articles regarding agrenal glands and cortisol.

 

Microsoft Word - Townsend Letter-NNTI article.docx - Townsend-Letter-NNTI article.docx.pdf

 

http://www.drdeborah...s-wake-you-3-am

 

 


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#3 sensei

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 02:52 PM

It could be low blood sugar.

 

The extra exercise could be raising your basal metabolism, thereby increasing energy requirements.

 

It could also have altered your Testosterone/Estrogen balance more toward Testosterone, making you more anabolic -- needing more energy, as well as the 'hard' side effect.

 

3-5 am is commonly the lowest level of blood sugar due to the overnight fast of the body.

 

You may try and eat a protein/fat/complex carb snack before bed.

 

 


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#4 pro-v

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 05:06 PM

Sounds like your test is spiking, which also spikes your dopamine and is waking you up. I've been in the exact same situation thousands of times and having some alone time generally works.

D3 can increase your dopamine too, maybe back off the amount.

Edited by pro-v, 13 March 2015 - 05:25 PM.


#5 cg8732b

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 05:29 PM

I took a normal 2k dose of Vit D today. I also went and bought some L-glutamine in hopes to regulate blood sugar levels at night better. I'll take some before bed to see if it helps. Might back off working out to see if it helps.



#6 tunt01

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 02:28 AM

My theory is that segmented sleep is more natural, assuming you don't have Alzheimer's, sleep apnea or some kind of neurological condition.

 

The modern popular assumption, that consolidated sleep with no awakenings is the normal and correct way for human adults to sleep, may lead people to consult their doctors fearing they have maintenance insomnia or other sleep disorders.[2] If Ekirch's hypothesis is correct, their concerns might best be addressed by reassurance that their sleep conforms to historically natural sleep patterns.

 

 

At first the participants slept for about eleven hours, presumably making up for their sleep debt. After this the subjects began to sleep much as people in pre-industrial times had. They would sleep for about four hours, wake up for two to three hours, then go back to bed for another four hours. They also took about two hours to fall asleep.

 

 

Wikipedia



#7 cg8732b

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 04:22 PM

Any ideas for how to stop the segmented sleep though? It may be more natural but unless I can sleep in (weekends) it totally messes up my day since weekdays I end up getting 5hrs of sleep. Last night I slept from 12pm-5am then went back to bed around 6 and then was in and out of sleep till 8:30am.

 

Glutamine didn't seem to help so maybe it's not blood sugar levels. My next idea is to try benadryl, I'm hoping it helps keep me asleep and not just go to sleep. Possibly kick the cycle.

 

In the meantime I've purchased Seriphos (http://www.amazon.co...=A3APD899DXBMCZ) to see if its possibly cortisol related. The fact that it began happening after I started swimming I'm wondering if the intense exercise so late at night and the cold water possibly caused a problem.

 

article on seriphos and cortisol - http://www.youralter...you-cant-sleep/



#8 nowayout

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 05:30 PM

I find benadryl to be quite good for sleep maintenance, at sufficient dosage. Start low but don't be afraid to take more if needed.
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#9 EachLastDay

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 06:41 PM

It sounds like normal, and natural, biphasic sleep. Sleeping twice during the night used to be the norm. Currently, many places take a siesta, where they sleep in the afternoon. This is the other type of biphasic sleep.

The way I see it, you have 2 options. You can compress your dark period or phase advance your circadian clock.

 

To compress your dark period, you would actualy need to expose yourself to light in the evening, as well as in the morning. You said you stopped using the computer/TV before bed, it might be a good idea to add this back in. Don't do it too late, of course. This will compress your sleep into a single period. The downside to this is that you will feel tired around noon, like most people do. Most people counter this with caffeine.

The much more chalenging, but I think more ideal, solution is to phase advance your internal clock. The most obvious way would be to stop exposing youself to blue light even earlier, perhaps even before the sun goes down. You could do this with blue-blocking glasses, for example. This will keep your sleep the way it is now (biphasic), but you will wake up earler. I'm sure many drugs/suppliments could also help, but I'm still learning about this.

Hope this helps.


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#10 tunt01

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 01:28 AM

Any ideas for how to stop the segmented sleep though? It may be more natural but unless I can sleep in (weekends) it totally messes up my day since weekdays I end up getting 5hrs of sleep.

 

This issue is something I've given thought to, but have not tried or implemented anything yet.  I think staying w/ the biphasic sleep schedule is actually healthier long-term.  I would suggest altering when you eat.  Perhaps have your last meal of the day by 4 PM.  And trying to go to bed earlier (8 or 9 PM).



#11 cg8732b

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:39 AM

Just wanted to give an update. I started taking Seriphos (lower cortisol) and benadryl for last two nights. I still wake up in the middle of the night; 3-4am however with Benadryl I'm able to fall asleep as long as I don't get out of bed when I wake up.

 

Not sure how long to take Benadryl for or if the Seriphos will even help since I didn't actually get levels tested. I'll do it for a week and then test it on weekend without either.



#12 cg8732b

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 12:10 PM

So since Sunday I've been taking Seriiphos (1 pill per night). I would fall asleep fine, wake up around 3-5 but then go right to bed. Last night since I was off today I decided to try it without the benadryl to see if I could fall asleep on my own. So I take the Seriphos at 9pm, go to sleep at 11pm, wake up at 4:50am then lay in bed till 7am trying to sleep when I then finally give up.

 

Any more ideas?

 

If I was to go to a doctor to help diagnose/treat. Which doctors would be best to go to and in what order? Should I try to get my hormons tested? Will a general practicitioner be able to help? Should I try to get into a sleep study?  Alternatively I know there are some tests on lef.com but they all seem expensive. I would like to minimize money spent since so far I've been buying pills and such and nothings been working.

 



#13 cg8732b

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 08:12 AM

Had 3 glasses of wine last night then took benadryl to sleep last night since I got very little the night before. Woke up at 3am with a thumping heart, extremely hot, hard on, and very thrirsty. Got up, drank water took off sweat pants and undershirt, went back to bed, couldn't sleep. Can anyone deduce anything from these symptoms? Similar thing happened last week after having 3 beers (not exactly a lot of alcohol) and then trying to sleep (last week I didn't take benadryl though to sleep). This is becoming very unfun and a bit scary. I don't really believe in god but i'm starting to pray because I'm really not sure I could handle this if it keeps going on.



#14 pro-v

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 12:59 PM

Can your doc order some blood tests for you?

#15 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 03:42 PM

Had 3 glasses of wine last night then took benadryl to sleep last night since I got very little the night before. Woke up at 3am with a thumping heart, extremely hot, hard on, and very thrirsty. Got up, drank water took off sweat pants and undershirt, went back to bed, couldn't sleep. Can anyone deduce anything from these symptoms? Similar thing happened last week after having 3 beers (not exactly a lot of alcohol) and then trying to sleep (last week I didn't take benadryl though to sleep). This is becoming very unfun and a bit scary. I don't really believe in god but i'm starting to pray because I'm really not sure I could handle this if it keeps going on.

 

I've often gotten the same symptoms from a few drinks. Have you drank heavily or often in the past? Used or use any other similar drugs, Z-drugs(ambien,etc), phenibut, or benzos? At the risk of sounding bro-sciency, I think you're having a severe glutamate/nmda rebound when the alcohol wears off. I not only notice this from drinking the same night, but notice trouble sleeping and disturbed sleep for days after drinking(or using phenibut, as another example). I would quit drinking, completely, and stop all similar drugs/supplements acting on GABA or nmda receptors. You might want to try Gabepentin for sleep in the mean time. If you do try it take it several hours before trying to sleep, it takes hours for it to reach peak plasma. In the end though, if I am right, you might end up having to quit drinking for a very long period. It sucks, but you will feel better all day every day in the end and its worth it.



#16 cg8732b

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 07:17 PM

Thanks for reply chemicalambrosia. When I was younger like middleschool and highschool i smoked a LOT of weed, drank and did a lot of other drugs. When I went to college I stopped all that but did drink pretty often. Since graduating for last 10 years I havn't done much of anything. Probably drink like once a week (average of like 4 drinks a night). I smoke probably like every 6 months at this point; like only when wife is out of town on travel, etc. So a few days before this whole thing started with my sleep cycle I did smoke weed. I'm sort of wondering if this caused it at all.

 

I told my dad about Gabapentin and he said he had some at the house so I'll go pick it up later and try tonight (my mom has a lot of sleep problems and is bipolar so he trys a lot of stuff on her).

 

On a side note I've been having diarheaa all week. Not sure if it's from the benadyrl or if it's just a coincidence. I've been researching getting a new probiotic and saw some interesting stuff regarding Lactobacillus rhamnosus. "Research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on August 29, 2011 reported this bacterium may have an effect on GABA neurotransmitter receptors. Mice who were fed L. rhamnosus had less anxiety and had different levels of a brain-chemical sensor and stress hormon." Seems like it might be good for my sleep issues; not sure which one to buy. I'm struggling between Culturella and jarrow's EPS probiotics. Also just saw this article regarding stomach acid and probiotics so I'm more confused. Hate when there isn't a clear "buy this".



#17 dudmuck

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 01:16 AM

Trouble with Diphenhydramine is that its anticholinergic, long term use increases dimentia risk.

 

The difference between low cortisol and high cortisol can only be seen with a diurnal saliva test.  Seems to me its not possible to know the difference by how you feel.  Morning (early) saliva is especially important.

Seriphos is only good for high cortisol.

Low cortisol is often (or always?) associated with poor blood sugar control (reactive hypoglycemia), which is often associated with poor liver detoxification pathways.   Testing BUN and LDH in blood shows that.  The common route is milk thistle first, then dandelion and maybe artichoke extract, or just get LV-GB complex.  Seems like the stuff your talking about points to liver.

 

What you eat for dinner is especially important, having the correct ratio of protein/fats and carbs.


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#18 Babol

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 04:21 PM

Maybe you should have go to a doctor? 



#19 Russ Maughan

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 07:30 AM

No one has brought up psycological. Are you having any recurring dreams? Did something big change in your life or someone close to you 5-6 weeks ago?

Might ask your doc for some valium. A 3-4 night regimen of not careing at all might do the trick.


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#20 Strelok

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:57 AM

People usually build up a tolerance very quickly to benedryl (diphenhydramine) for the purpose of treating insomnia.  I tried it a few weeks ago for sleep out of desperation.  It worked decently for two nights, and almost not at all on the third night.  YMMV.

 

OP, your background sounds a bit similar to mine.  I've tried so many things for sleep, and none of them have consistently helped.  Just when I think I have found something that really works, my body adapts and it stops working.  I've gotten so desparate that I've scheduled an appointment with an MD and hope to leave with an ambien/zolpidem (or similar) prescription.  I will use this till my work demands subside a little, and then try to address the problem naturally (like what is mentioned in the first link you posted in post #2).  Right now, though, I don't have time to screw around and, against my own personal philosphy, am willing to resort to pharmaceuticals for the next several months.  Getting 2 hours of sleep, day after day, while needing strong cognition at work gets pretty brutal quite quickly. 


Edited by Strelok, 25 March 2015 - 03:02 AM.


#21 Strelok

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 03:00 AM

Had 3 glasses of wine last night then took benadryl to sleep last night since I got very little the night before. Woke up at 3am with a thumping heart, extremely hot, hard on, and very thrirsty. Got up, drank water took off sweat pants and undershirt, went back to bed, couldn't sleep. Can anyone deduce anything from these symptoms? Similar thing happened last week after having 3 beers (not exactly a lot of alcohol) and then trying to sleep (last week I didn't take benadryl though to sleep). This is becoming very unfun and a bit scary. I don't really believe in god but i'm starting to pray because I'm really not sure I could handle this if it keeps going on.

Probably not a good idea to mix the two.  The side effects you experienced are probably a combination of both the alcohol and the benedryl.  Here is a list of potential side effect for benedryl:

 

CNS: drowsiness, dizziness, headache, paradoxical excitation (increased in children)

EENT: blurred vision, tinnitus

CV: hypotension, palpitations

GI: anorexia, dry mouth, constipation, nausea

GU: dysuria, frequency, urinary retention

Derm: photosensitivity

Resp: chest tightness, thickened bronchial secretions, wheezing

 

Italics indicate most frequent.



#22 cg8732b

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 03:59 PM

I've been trying several things from post#2 but mainly in a pill that has them all combined. Hard to regulate dosages because of this. The pill I got was sleep optimizer from Jarrow. It has trypotaphan, GABA, hops, and melatonin. My dad gave me some GABA that he had in the house so I tried that directly; doesn't seem to help. I bought some of the Seriphos mention to lower cortisol, It's also not giving me releif. I should maybe try a night with no suppliments to see if it's same or better. My current regimen is Sleep optimizer (2 pills), GABA, Magnesium and zinc, seriphos (1pill). I've stopped the benadryl after that bad experience when drinking. You may be right about the alcohol interactions. I'll save benadryl for days that I slept real bad the night before. Currently I'm getting 5 hours of sleep per night sort of off and on which is enough to function on.

 

I also tried a LED sun lamp to see if it helps, no relief. I think my next test is to buy NAC and see if that can help. Seems to be good for mood and relaxing as well as being good for the body in general. I'm going to do a little more research tonight but I think i'll buy some this week to test it. I may also again do some tests with cutting coffee from my diet. I've been reading it's a possible source of inflamation and that can interfier with sleep.

 

Oh and ONE other idea i had was to buy those blue-blocking eyeglasses off amazon to see if they help the brain get into night mode better. Unsure if it can help with sleep maintenance but might be worth a shot: http://www.health.ha...has-a-dark-side



#23 Strelok

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 04:51 PM

I've been trying several things from post#2 but mainly in a pill that has them all combined. Hard to regulate dosages because of this. The pill I got was sleep optimizer from Jarrow. It has trypotaphan, GABA, hops, and melatonin. My dad gave me some GABA that he had in the house so I tried that directly; doesn't seem to help. I bought some of the Seriphos mention to lower cortisol, It's also not giving me releif. I should maybe try a night with no suppliments to see if it's same or better. My current regimen is Sleep optimizer (2 pills), GABA, Magnesium and zinc, seriphos (1pill). I've stopped the benadryl after that bad experience when drinking. You may be right about the alcohol interactions. I'll save benadryl for days that I slept real bad the night before. Currently I'm getting 5 hours of sleep per night sort of off and on which is enough to function on.

 

I also tried a LED sun lamp to see if it helps, no relief. I think my next test is to buy NAC and see if that can help. Seems to be good for mood and relaxing as well as being good for the body in general. I'm going to do a little more research tonight but I think i'll buy some this week to test it. I may also again do some tests with cutting coffee from my diet. I've been reading it's a possible source of inflamation and that can interfier with sleep.

 

Oh and ONE other idea i had was to buy those blue-blocking eyeglasses off amazon to see if they help the brain get into night mode better. Unsure if it can help with sleep maintenance but might be worth a shot: http://www.health.ha...has-a-dark-side

 

I have read a few accounts of people saying magnesium before bed actually made their sleep worse.  Most people say it helps them, though.  GABA is one thing from that paper in post #2 that I haven't tried for sleep.  And according to the paper, I made the mistake of using 5HTP before bed instead of tryptophan.  So at least I have something to try.

 

I never noticed NAC affecting my sleep one way or the other, nor do I ever remember it helping me relax.  But everybody's different.

 

I was going to get blue-blocking glasses from Amazon too, lol.  It's one of those things that some people say are helpful.  Still on the to-do list.

 

 



#24 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:33 PM

I've been trying several things from post#2 but mainly in a pill that has them all combined. Hard to regulate dosages because of this. The pill I got was sleep optimizer from Jarrow. It has trypotaphan, GABA, hops, and melatonin. My dad gave me some GABA that he had in the house so I tried that directly; doesn't seem to help. I bought some of the Seriphos mention to lower cortisol, It's also not giving me releif. I should maybe try a night with no suppliments to see if it's same or better. My current regimen is Sleep optimizer (2 pills), GABA, Magnesium and zinc, seriphos (1pill). I've stopped the benadryl after that bad experience when drinking. You may be right about the alcohol interactions. I'll save benadryl for days that I slept real bad the night before. Currently I'm getting 5 hours of sleep per night sort of off and on which is enough to function on.

 

I also tried a LED sun lamp to see if it helps, no relief. I think my next test is to buy NAC and see if that can help. Seems to be good for mood and relaxing as well as being good for the body in general. I'm going to do a little more research tonight but I think i'll buy some this week to test it. I may also again do some tests with cutting coffee from my diet. I've been reading it's a possible source of inflamation and that can interfier with sleep.

 

Oh and ONE other idea i had was to buy those blue-blocking eyeglasses off amazon to see if they help the brain get into night mode better. Unsure if it can help with sleep maintenance but might be worth a shot: http://www.health.ha...has-a-dark-side

 

Just to clarify, I recommended Gabapentin/Neurontin in my post, which is a prescription drug. The GABA you are taking is an amino acid sold as a supplement. If you are looking for only OTC sleep aids then kava(has to be high quality, bulk powder or herb pharm alcoholic extract is good) is one of the most effective ones in my opinion. There is some controversy as to whether it can be bad for you liver or not, but its an effective sleep aid for a lot of people.



#25 cg8732b

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:49 PM

Yeah I know the difference. I did speak with my dad about getting some from him since my mom had some. I was not aware at the time that it was prescription. When I went over to his place to get it he was like ohh I don't want to give it to you since you need a prescription for it. I'm taking GABA however I'm fairly certain it does nothing which is inline with what most people say online since it doesn't cross the BBB. Since It doesn't cross the BBB I was researching ways to increase it and ran across this probiotic strain that says it increases GABA. https://en.wikipedia...illus_rhamnosus. I bought some Jarrow EPS which has it however I believe Cultrella is 100% this strand but more $$.

 

I tried pure kava in college but have not since. I ordered some Yogi Kava tea yesterday; I'm hoping it's just as good as using the stuff pure. I remember it didn't taste very good and made my mouth a little numb. I should have the stuff tomorrow to test out. Just ordered some NAC and Dewalt laser engancement Glasses off amazon. I should be able to test that stuff out this weekend.



#26 Strelok

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 12:34 AM

Please report back on how those glasses work out for you. 



#27 adamh

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 12:43 AM

I have blue blocking glasses I wear at night, I'm wearing them now. They do help, I got mine on ebay. Look for amber wrap around, amber is blue blocker.



#28 cg8732b

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:21 PM

Hey guys, So over the weekend I tests KAVA tea and the red glasses every night. Didn't seem to make a difference. My sleep issues have started causing me not to be able to fall asleep now which is odd because I'm very tired. I tried an enema (saline) over the weekend to see if it could possibly help. My dad used to read stuff from Edgar Cayce and suggested that. No luck, couldnt fall asleep last night so after 30 min of trying I just took benadryl. I unplugged my alarm clock before bed so I couldnt check time so I'm unsure when I woke up but I just went back to bed. I'm not having a reoccurring dream atleast that I can remember. When I wake up i'm not scared or anything I just wake up.

 

Anyways, what would you suggest in terms of seeing a doctor. Should I search for a sleep specialist or an engocrinologist or just go to my general practicioner, etc.? Thanks.



#29 cg8732b

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 01:52 AM

The glasses really help me getting to sleep but they don't help with my mid night wake up issue. When I wear them before bed I get super tired and can't stop yawning. They are also comfy, the only negative I would say is the particular ones I got are very red and really enhance light. Very unpleasant to wear with a lot of lights on, watching TV is weird but you get used to it.

 

NAC had no effect on sleep so I'm a little out of ideas. I'm considering maybe theanine to see if it helps. Might not help though just wanted to try.

 

I have an appointment tomorrow with a sleep center. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Not sure what they can do though and I'm sort of dreading actually sleeping there is they want to go that route. Hopefully they have some insight and don't think I'm just crazy since I don't have anything obvious like sleep apnea.



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#30 cg8732b

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:53 PM

I went to sleep doc today. he said to stop all supplements as well as benadryl and to set an alarm for 5:30 am every day. He said just go to bed at 11 and wake up at 5:30 every day no matter what. He said 3 weeks you should be fixed... He said Benadryl doesnt work the same was your body sleeps and lunestra is better. He was going to write me a scrip but forgot. I may need to call back and get that since I slept like such shit last night.







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