114 replies to this topic

[VerdeGo]

Try Glycine. It's an amino acid that should be rather safe and is best known for letting you sleep throughout the night without waking up. The reviews for all the glycine supplements on Amazon are 4 stars and above, so it seems to work across the board for most people, and the reviews overwhelmingly state that it prevents people from waking up in the middle of the night, and seems to allow people to gett out of bed refreshed. If I take a Benadryl, I'm groggy for the entire next day. 

 

I started my fiancee on glycine tonight, so if it works well for her I'll report back. That's probably your safest bet if you don't want side effects or anything addicting. 

[cg8732b]

Thanks for the tip, I'll pick some up and give it a go. Up at 5:30 as doc ordered :/ Went to bed 12 and woke up 4 then shouldnt get back to bed. Been playing SC for last 2 hours. Hope my brain doesnt start enjoying waking up early hah.

[cg8732b]

Unsure if I should go to my general doc or a cardiologist (so far I've only seen sleep doc who said start waking up at 5:30 every morning and see me in 3 weeks). It could just be stress related but my sleep maintenance insomnia has evolved to me waking up with a pounding heart and it takes about a min to relax. After I relax I still can't go to sleep. Maybe it's just stress from not sleeping. Got 4.5 hrs of sleep last night. 

 

The heart thing happened the other day when I was out walking with my wife. Took about a min to go back to normal. This sleep stuff and heart thing are starting to really worry me.

 

 

[OpaqueMind]

Often sleep maintenance insomnia is caused by, and is always reinforced by, conditioning, which can be effectively dismantled with CBT for insomnia [I used this resource with decent results].

 

However in some cases it is caused by dysfunctions not remediable through the above set of methods. Insomnia is related to dysfunction of the thalamus, which plays a key role in regulating sleep/wake (arousal) cycles and controlling general cortical excitability. Thalamic dysfunction leads to general brain dysfunction, because it acts like a time-keeping function for other processes. Personally I used neurofeedback to great effect to completely get rid of my insomnia, primarily through SMR amplitude training at Cz (or rather its more refined version, narrow-band SMR training - 13.7-14.3hz just in front of Cz) and then through Infra-low Frequency training at T4-P4, T4-Fp2 and T3-P3. If anyone has insomnia and has a neurofeedback device with ILF capability, train those areas and your insomnia will be lessened immediately (esp with ILF) and then gone within a few weeks.

[dudmuck]

I would suggest you to order a diurnal salivary cortisol test from ZRT or access-a or whoever is available in your state.  Its just spitting into four plastic tubes.  You could then take the test report to your doctor, and decide to test things like thyroid or liver function or blood sugar stability.  I had the same situation, where the report showed low cortisol in early morning.

 

There is other good information.. http://www.drgangemi...thtopics/sleep/

[cg8732b]

So sleep has been slightly better but still a problem. I've been getting to bed mostly at 11 and waking up at 5 which is 6hrs most days. I have a sleep study scheduled in 3 weeks. I stopped all experimenting except for glycine and pre/probiotics. Things have been good for most part however I wanted to give an update before I'm a little confused. So my wakeup at 5am have been normal however last night I had a beer at 6pm, went to bed at midnight and then wakeup at 4:30am. I think it's beer related; I woke up feeling dehydrated, with ringing in ears, erection and dehydrated (all of which not normal for me as of this last month). Not sure how and why this sleep issue started all of a sudden and the relationship to alcohol. I used to be able to do both like a normal person. Most days when I wake up at 5am I'm awake however I want to sleep more but I get up because sleep dr said get out of bed at 5am. Today I'm wide awake and unable to sleep.

 

So yeah, I guess I got up to give an update and because I'm very confused still :(.

[Strelok]

I've been dealing with terrible sleep right along side you.  I was taking at first trazodone, then temazepam, and now I have a Lunesta prescription.  I started the pharmaceutical route about 6 weeks ago out of desparation.  I absolutely had to sleep for important work and school related events.  The Lunesta usually makes me sleep for 6.5 - 7.5 hrs, but it is definitely not as refreshing as real, natural sleep.  There can also be a slight hangover effect that persists for hours into the next day, even after 7 or 8 hours of sleep.

 

I'm hoping that I can figure out a natural solution to this problem.  The Lunesta simply is not a healthy, sustainable option for the long term.  I've been researching some new potential substances for sleep lately, and have put together the following sleep stack, which I take before bed:

 

Gastrodin (increases GABA, and many other potential benefits)

Seriphos (I believe my sleep problems are partly related to high nighttime and early morning cortisol levels, and this stuff may be able to reverse that.  I have an allele that is known to confer glucocorticoid resistance and high cortisol, according to data from 23andme and elsewhere)

Tryptophan (serotonin/melatonin precursor.  5HTP can increase cortisol, so not using that)

GABA (both capsule and sublingual.  I also have an allele that confers high glutamate and low GABA)

Taurine (supports GABA function in the brain, supposedly)

Magnolia extract (GABA potentiator, supposedly)

Small dose of melatonin

Kava Kava (agonize the GABA receptor)

I'm also thinking of adding a lemon balm extract to the mix.

 

I've been using this stack for 2 nights now without the lunesta.  It was pretty ineffective the first night.  Last night was much more bearable, but still far from great or normal.  I think the Seriphos takes some time to slowly reverse the cortisol problems, so I'm holding out hope. 

 

[VerdeGo]

I've never heard of Gastrodin before. What other benefits are you referring to? Is it a GABA precursor like glutamine and theanine, or is it a brand name for one of these? 

 

Lemon balm is good, so is chamomile or a blend of GABAergic herbs as found in Tazo Calm and SleepyTime teas. I'd be careful with Kava since it's been shown to cause liver damage in some users. 

 

As far as taurine, its combination with theanine made me feel quite amazing for three straight days (I already feel fine, but this elevated me into the clouds). I'm also interested in taurine and its effects on the neurotransmitter system.

 

Good luck with the stack, keep us informed. 

[Junk Master]

I've had pretty good luck with lemon balm formulas from Swanson's, but honestly you'd have better luck with relatively high doses of raw potato starch and probiotics.

 

Plus, if you have to go the prescription route, nothing beats Ambien, though there can be sides depending on the individual and it can mess with your sleep architecture.

 

All in all, I've never seen anyone who runs 10 miles a day, or does 1 hour of vigorous physical exercise in broad daylight that has trouble waking up in the middle of the night besides over 45 males  with enlarged prostates.  In which case, a small dose of daily Cialis works wonders!

 

 

 

[cg8732b]

I stopped taking Seriphos after 3 weeks on it. I never noticed a difference and was afraid that taking something that alters hormones when it wasn't changing anything might not be good. Do you think I should start taking it again?

I've been taking taurine randomly and it hasn't made a difference. I've never noticed anything from this. I don't think it's needed unless your older. Strelok - You mention having "an allele that is known to confer glucocorticoid resistance and high cortisol". I've had my DNA sequences by 23andme as well. Can you tell me how to check this?

If you figure anything out please let me know. My mother in law is staying with us for the next 2 weeks so I have to sleep in same bed as wife. I'm preying I can sleep somewhat so I'm not a zombie.



 

[Strelok]

I've never heard of Gastrodin before. What other benefits are you referring to?

LEF wrote a detailed, 3-page article on Gastrodin.  I don't know much more about it beyond what the article talks about:

http://www.lifeexten...n-Aging/Page-01

 

 

I stopped taking Seriphos after 3 weeks on it. I never noticed a difference and was afraid that taking something that alters hormones when it wasn't changing anything might not be good. Do you think I should start taking it again?

I've been taking taurine randomly and it hasn't made a difference. I've never noticed anything from this. I don't think it's needed unless your older. Strelok - You mention having "an allele that is known to confer glucocorticoid resistance and high cortisol". I've had my DNA sequences by 23andme as well. Can you tell me how to check this?
 

I sent my 23andme data to Nutrahacker, who then compiled it and made a report.  I do have to wonder how exactly all of his recommendations are, but I think they at least have some research supporting them, and they are a good starting point.

 

The gene I am talking about is NR3C1.  Normal is to have the G variation, but I have a homozygous AA mutation.

Not sure if Seriphos is right for you.  You could have a cortisol test done where you give saliva samples 4x day to determine if you have cortisol peaks and troughs at the right time.  I thought of doing the test, but I figured I'd just give the Seriphos a chance since I think I have a number of high cortisol symptoms, and I have a bit of genetic confirmation of this.

[axonopathy]

What about the melatonergic drug remelteon or the orexinergic drug suvorexant for sleep maintenance? See this article for more info: http://www.brainprot...elteon-rozerem/

[Strelok]

What about the melatonergic drug remelteon or the orexinergic drug suvorexant for sleep maintenance? See this article for more info: http://www.brainprot...elteon-rozerem/

 

I would try one of those if my insurance covered them, but, alas, I'd have to pay out of pocket.

 

As an aside, I just picked up some Lactium to add to my sleep stack.  It's not suppose to be particularly potent by itself, but I'm hoping it'll be a valuable addition to the total anti-insomnia effect.
 

[VerdeGo]

Going back to Gastrodin for a moment, the article states:

 

Gastrodin helps restore the vital balance of neurotransmitters. Studies show that gastrodin increases levels of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA by as much as 34%, which exerts a calming effect on the brain and counteracts the overactive brain activity.11,29,30

 

From Amazon reviews of the Life Extension product, it appears to work in subtle ways like theanine. But from the sounds of it, it doesn't appear to be a GABA agonist but somehow a GABA precursor by elevating levels of GABA by nearly twice the amount as theanine (19.88%). The only thing that concerns me is that the studies are Asian in origin, and foreign studies tend to trump up the benefits of a native herb without the rigorous standard of testing in the West. But I may be ordering a bottle of this to see if it works similar to theanine or glutamine. Thanks for the heads up Strelok, and I will also mention it in my theanine long term thread. Can you provide any further subjective information on your experiences with gastrodin alone?

 

From what I'm reading online, gastrodin may be quite the nootropic through neuroregeneration and neuroplasticity.

[stillwater]

I have this same problem, and have tried quite a few things over the years, other than the obvious heavy duty stuff like seroquel, which I don't want to take, nothing really worked,  Tonight I'm going to try taking a high blood pressure drug called Prazosin, that's been documented to help people with PTSD sleep through the night, it's an old drug and easy to obtain. I'll report if it works.

 

[Strelok]

Thanks for the heads up Strelok, and I will also mention it in my theanine long term thread. Can you provide any further subjective information on your experiences with gastrodin alone?

 

 

Sorry, I don't really have any more subjective information.  Last night was only the fifth time I've taken gastrodin, and I've never taken it by itself - always along with everything else in my sleep stack.  I've also been taking 600mg before bed, instead of the 300mg twice daily suggested dosing.  I'm just trying to attain maximum effect for sleep purposes.

 

Overall, the stack seems to work, but certainly doesn't hit as hard as a pharmaceutical like ambien or lunesta. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what individual components are responsible, and what others might be a waste.
 

[stillwater]

I have this same problem, and have tried quite a few things over the years, other than the obvious heavy duty stuff like seroquel, which I don't want to take, nothing really worked,  Tonight I'm going to try taking a high blood pressure drug called Prazosin, that's been documented to help people with PTSD sleep through the night, it's an old drug and easy to obtain. I'll report if it works.

 

 

I'm reporting back on this after one night and well the Prazosin seems to have worked. I slept through the night without ever waking up, which is rare to non-existant  for me. I took the pill right before going to sleep but think tonight I'm going to take it an hour before and split the pill in two.  The dosage was only a 1mg tablet, but I'm a poor metabolizer of most drugs, I woke up feeling groggy after 7 hours of sleep and felt like  could sleep another 3 if it wasn't for my alarm. But it does feel very restorative, no nightmares or need to urinate issues and now halfway through the day I feel fine. I hope this continues.

[cg8732b]

Next suppliment I plan on trying is Bioactive Milk Peptides. Read about it here: http://www.lef.org/m...y=milk peptides

 

http://www.amazon.co...e Milk Peptides

 

Anyone try it yet? They claim it helps you stay asleep.

 

 

[cg8732b]

Did a sleep study and the doc said I'm fine. I assume all he was interested in was sleep apnea. During the study I slept for 3 hours then woke-up and went back to bed but got terrible sleep where I didn't get any rem. The doctor prescribed me Belsomra but I have not tried it yet because the reviews and symptoms seem scary.

 

I've been trying a new thing where I'm just trying to be calm and meditate. It's difficult though since I have a hard time meditating over 10 min so I just do that twice a day. Not helping so far, cant increase past 6hrs. And if I go to bed at 10pm because I'm super tired I'll just wakeup at 4am. Then next day I'll force myself to stay till 11pm then I wakeup at 6.

 

I've also noticed I have a ranging level of tinnitus. Seems to always be there in silence. Not sure if this is related to issue at all. I did find this article that coorelates the two:
http://www.pbs.org/n...tinnitus_11-06/

 

As always, out of ideas and tired :(
 

[jetmango]

hey man

 

I have very similar symptoms sometimes with a thumping heart. 

 

I stopped caffeine, drinking, smoking, doing yoga, excercising, eating healthy..

 

checked

 

tryptophan

GABA

DPA

 

(helped just for few days then everything came back)

 

tons of herbal supplements like ashwagandha, rhodiola, gotu kola,

 

 

taurine (helped only partially due to effect on GABA)

 

 

l-lysine - this was good, but helped only partially

 

 

....It must be hormones. something with cortisol. something is causing this to our bodies. I tried to get DHEA and Seriphos as recommended by Julia Ross from 'mood cure' but... can't get them here in Ireland as they aren't permitted. What a madness. NOR do the fucking saliva test, as nobody does them!! Privately they cost 950 EUR its beyond crazy.

 

Sometimes I cannot sleep for like 3-4 hours, and what is even worse- I got awake several times with heart pumping. Sounds like overhyped adrenals to me.

 

Im trying to get them from the UK though.. they are my only hope. 

 

 

[Heisenburger]

Etizolam is fantastic for initiating sleep, but only so-so for maintaining it—the half-life is a little on the short side. Very cheap, and easy to obtain. I see that prazosin is dirt cheap from AllDay. The shipping costs more than a six-month supply of the drug. Glycine is also ridiculously inexpensive. I’m going to try both and see what happens.

[cg8732b]

Hey guys, it's been a little better lately (currently get 6 hrs of sleep a night). I believe glycine/lysine combo has helped me the most over the last few months. I've taken seriphos but not sure if it was helping or not so I stopped. I'm less sure that glycine was helping but I know for a fact lysine helps.

My problem is a little different now. Instead of waking up with heart pounding at 3am I now wake up at 5am every morning (go to bed at 11pm) and I feel normal. Also I was unable to drink any alcohol previously, this has changed. It actually helps me sleep now oddly. The first time I noticed it working beneficially was after sleeping like shit then drinking that day at noon. I was so tired by the time to go to bed and I was able to adequately hydrate that I slept well. Since then I can drink at night and it seems to still just make me sleepy. In the past it caused the heart pounding issue to be twice as bad.

 

 

I've also come to the conclusion that its hormone related. Not exactly sure how to fix though... My current regimen is DIM with no glycine or lysine (because I want to take a brake to let my body normalize from it). I'm trying to avoid things that make me anxious also... 

[Heisenburger]

Drug helps PTSD nightmares. This looks like something which bears serious investigation. Cheap, safe, thoroughly tested, non-addictive, and according the guy who wrote the paper, is the greatest thing since sliced bread. As I mentioned before, AllDay has it in the pennies-per-day price range, but now they want $25 for shipping (used to be $15). I see Mimaki Family has it too. Never ordered from them before, but several people I’ve talked to have vouched for them. 

[robberbaron]

lunesta sucks. try ambien

[jetmango]

well I don't know with you but I personally don't want to take drugs like benzos to fall asleep- they are addicting, killing your REM sleep and above all- harmful.

 

I like l-lysine too, but it doesnt solve the core of the problem. it was just barely helpful, and after several weeks main problems came back.

 

AFAIR you shouldn't take seriphos just like that, first u should do 24h adrenal stress index test from saliva to check hormone levels. I could give gold for it as not possible for me to get it and try here where I live (Ireland!)

 

(of course heavy or regular drinking only worsens the problem in your cause- this is obvious)

 

you see, you can't just put a blister (benzodiazepines) on a bleeding wound (hormone problem) and expect it to heal. 

 

In my case it was probably caused by PTSD and other factors, on top with drug abuse years ago mixed with ultra-stressful job, you might have other factors too.

Check your thyroid + adrenals, and keep us updated.
 

[Heisenburger]

I hope this continues.

 

So are you still feeling the joy? Any updates? I received a box of branded Pfizer Minipress from Mimaki Family Pharmacy today. I’m going to start taking it tonight. I’ll keep a daily record of the results in an Excel spreadsheet and report back after 30 trials. I also ordered some glycine today, so in a few days I’ll be able to use both simultaneously and see if that has any different or additional effect.

 

[jetmango]

hey , I will post an update as soon as I'll get back from work today.

[jetmango]

OK so I cut out every possible mind altering substances (caffeine, alcohol, nicotine), living extremely healthy (yoga, weightlifting, bike) and eating good, too.

 

Trying various sets of supplements according to Julia Ross 'Mood Cure' - seems to help initially, but then issues came back, more or less.
 

When I am really tired (after long shifts at work) the problem is that when I go to bed my brain can't turn off. If it does- the known 'impulses' come back or/and eventually I wake up 4-5 times per night, which make me sleep 2 hour less than I should. This in accordance to working a lot makes me even more tired and in the past lead to abusing stimulants (caffeine, ginseng) in order to be able to cope of workload- which of course put my nervous system in even bigger trouble. 

My current path seems to work, impulses got downgraded it seems to almost bearable amount however especially when I am working they are still and issue.

 

I will follow up with sephiros, this is my strong hope as the cortisol peak during night might be causing these symptoms. Where I live it's not possible to do adrenal test from saliva (what a pity!) so it's gonna be hit&miss.

 

 

[stillwater]

 

I hope this continues.

 

So are you still feeling the joy? Any updates? I received a box of branded Pfizer Minipress from Mimaki Family Pharmacy today. I’m going to start taking it tonight. I’ll keep a daily record of the results in an Excel spreadsheet and report back after 30 trials. I also ordered some glycine today, so in a few days I’ll be able to use both simultaneously and see if that has any different or additional effect.

 

 

 

No, I forgot to come back for a further report. It was unsustainable for me, after a couple of nights I would feel really drugged out during the day even though I broke the pills down to smaller dosages. It's disappointing, but with all the research I did on it, I think it's still worth it for others to try , especially since it's so cheap. I am a horrible responder to most drugs so it probably will work for others like it does in various articles and trials. 

 

The only thing that provides somewhat of a relief for me is very low dose melatonin  250mcgs  time release capsules.  When I was on NSI-189 it gave me a slightly more restorative sleep but I can't be on it all the time.

[jetmango]

trying melatonin too, mix with GABA and low dose taurine seems to do the work however its defo not something u could use long-term and its easy to over-do melatonin and just sleep too long.