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experiencing paradoxical effects to numerous supplements

anxiety panic disorder insomnia uncontrollable libido drug use elevated cortisol

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#1 drawingablank

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:02 PM


Hi, this is my first post aside from the introductory one I was required to make.  I'm hoping it's posted in the correct category; despite it concerning supplements the effects they are having I'm fairly certain are due to my mental, and perhaps physical, health.

 

I've been experiencing mind tearing anxiety for about two months now; my mind seems to be in a fairly consistent state of panic and despair; I've been trying various supplements to help quell the anxiety but many seem to work for only brief periods of time (couple hours maybe) and then make things worse or only manage to calm me physically, take some of the edge off, but mentally the turmoil boils on.  I have read through Science Guy's posting on curing anxiety and tried some of the supplements he's recommended but.....

 

Well, I should state that I have had an issue with abusing propylhexedrine fairly consistently these past several years...sometimes once every couple weeks, sometimes once every several months; i was in the course of one of those longer periods of abstinence and had it in my mind that i was done with it for good, but during the months of November through about 3 weeks ago - following a car accident, the loss of my job, and a failed relationship with someone i really liked, all occurring within a couple weeks- my use has been more frequent, often every week or every other week, and the quantity had in the last 3 instances increased to 8 - 10 inhalers.  I assumed due to this my serotonin might be low so I tried 5-htp; it resulted in worsening anxiety if taken during the day; approximately 1 hour or so after ingesting my sense of panic brought on by regret was almost unbearable, causing my to scream these suppressed screams so as not to make much noise (they would still hurt my throat though); it also elevated libido which has been uncontrollable lately  to the point where it's a nuisance and just adds to the anxiety (especially considering I've developed an overwhelming sense of social anxiety / phobia of late and even won't leave my house during day light hours to walk or jog the dog; I wait till it gets dark and even then I've only been taking her once or twice a week (don't worry; she has a big yard to run around in).  With the libido issue I've also developed an extreme case of PE.  The 5-htp, if taken at night, although helping me fall asleep results in me waking a couple hours later, at most, after very vivid bizarre dreams with a fear to fall back asleep as I don't want to dream the dreams I was having. 

 

I tried BCM-95 (curcumin extract) as I read it helped others with both depression and curbing libido.  Every day on which I have tried to take it has significantly increased both anxiety and libido.

 

I'm fairly certain I have high cortisol levels as I've had them in the past and despite not having them tested this time I feel like I did then only worse.  (I also used stim heavy pre workouts on and off for several years now prior to working out and feel like they, along with the propylhexedrine, and maybe even over training at times, have contributed to elevated cortisol levels once again - i recently dumped them all out.  I also have a lot of the symptoms of elevated cortisol, especially of late.)  Anyway, I tried relora and although at first it did seem to calm me, at least for a couple hours after taking it, I feel like it has been worsening my anxiety and doing nothing for my cortisol; and it definitely does not help me get to sleep.  I've tried an adoptogenic blend that contains schizandra, rhodiola, and ashwagandha; again I feel calmed for a couple hours but am not sure if it's making  my anxiety worse as my panic and anxiety comes back stronger after those 2 or so hours (Maybe it would have been at the same level if i hadn't taken either of those supplements and they just allowed for a two or so hour reprieve from it).  But anyway, the calming effect feels more physically calming, and not so much mentally calming. I tried 10 mg of DHEA sublingually this weekend but after 90 minutes or so it send me into complete panic mode.

 

I'm assuming I have low dopamine levels as whenever I take a dopamine precursor I feel much better; my outlook is definitely more positive hours after taking tyrosine and l-phenylalanine; I actually feel like I may make it out of this hole and my anxiety and suicidal ideation is replaced with a positive outlook.  Unfortunately this combo soon there after increases my libido which in turn brings about anxiety; (on a side note, an I apologize if i'm being vulgar here, but post ejaculation I actually feel the worst anxiety and despair of all.)  Low dopamine and high cortisol levels usually list decreased libido as a symptom, so i'm a bit confused there.

 

Paradoxically, when I take a testosterone boosting supplement containing mucuna pruriens standardized to 75% L-dopa, along with safed musli, carnitine l tartrate, and huperzine-a I feel the positive outlook I get from the tyrosine but with an actual decrease in libido (something the product claims to increase).  But again, I feel like it make the anxiety worse later on in the evening.

 

Melatonin no longer works for sleep.  I do feel like it calms me down but it does not help me fall asleep and an hour or two after ingesting it I had begun to notice an increase in libido.  Benedryl has become the only thing that helps me fall asleep and it helps me sleep a fairly dreamless sleep, but i know in the long run it won't help my anxiety or insomnia issues, only make them worse.

 

I ordered some tianeptine and hope that helps with the anxiety but am worried about the effects of increased libido and vivid dreams many have reported.  If it were to further elevate libido would it be safe to take it with the mucuna pruriens containing product?  At least when i take that i have a good 5 or so hours where i feel normal - a feeling i never really took into consideration until this state of panic and despair set in a couple months ago; my libido is quelled to where i could focus on other things, like actually typing up this post - holy s... it's a long one; i apologize and commend anyone who's still reading.

Could the combination of tianeptine and the L-dopa from the mucuna be dangerous?

 

Also, the same company makes a similar product but without the carnitine or huperzine-a (the reason i'm assuming i was never able to get to sleep if i took it at night) but instead with rhodiola and dodder seed which I've read some claimed gave them great sleep.  Altough i worry that the dodder seed could increase libido even further.

Anyway, anyone's input as to what might be going on with my brain chemistry, or any suggestions would be much appreciated.  Sorry if this isn't the right place (not just category wise but maybe even website wise) to be posting something like this.



#2 drawingablank

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:51 AM

I noticed some grammatical errors upon rereading my post; is there a way I can edit it?



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#3 Kjellfh

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:37 PM

I've had similar experiences regarding paradoxal reactions. This was/is to gaba agonists/modulators and cortisol suppressors (chamomile, valerian, relora, ashwaganda, phosphatidyl serine etc. Also from melatonin which worked gteat to begin with. I would advise you to stop taking any supplement and stimulants at all for a long period, they often cause more trouble over time than they solve. What seems like a quick fix can be devastating in the long run. Try 5 minutes or longer cold showers/baths. Focus on good/balanced diet and allow the body much time to recover. Do walks and/or yoga. Maybe check hormones with blood a test.

Edited by Kjellfh, 25 March 2015 - 02:38 PM.


#4 sensei

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:51 PM

If you want to boost Test get on Testosterone therapy -- that product you are taking is likely doing nothing more than making you feel bad.

 

Look up mucuna pruriens -- it messes with Serotonin among other things -- it's been used as a psychedelic.



#5 drawingablank

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:15 PM



Kjellfh and sensei, thank you for the responses.

As far as giving up all supplements, I’ve tried to do that recently – I put them all in a box, sealed it up with duct tape, and placed it in my closet – unfortunately I discovered I didn’t have the will power to not try and find that quick fix for this anxiety that I’ve been experiencing lately.

I don’t want to boost test at this point in my life – unless I were to find out that maybe a testosterone / estrogen imbalance is what’s causing or at least contributing to the anxiety. A blood test would definitely be beneficial but with a lack of insurance and income currently it is, however pathetic it may sound, out of my price range.

It seems that the only thing that helps alleviate the anxiety, even if doing so temporarily is dopamine precursors. Would this be indicative that I am low on dopamine? And they do not just alleviate the anxiety but on the days when I ingest a combination of l-tyrosine and l-phenylalanine or that product with the mucuna pruriens in it I am actually able to keep a positive outlook and feel a sense of hope for a good portion of the day which is huge for me right now as my outlook on my life and my future has been quite grim lately. But I have definitely considered the possibility that in the long run, especially with the mucuna pruriens, I am doing my harm then good by consuming these. Maybe not so much with the tyrosine or phenylalanine, but those further elevate my libido which has already been annoyingly high lately. That test boosting product with the mucuna, paradoxically, actually seems to lower my libido. While doing some research about an abnormally high libido I came across, on wikipedia, the dopaminergic mesolimbic pathway and how it plays a central role in both drug addiction – which I’ve struggled with for a good portion of half of my life– as well as an overly heightened libido; (as well as playing a role in depression). If I have issues with all three would it be advised that I stay away from all dopamine precursors?

 



#6 Al Capacino

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:23 PM

Have you tried pregabilin? Always good for me when my heart is beating out it's chest!

#7 Kjellfh

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:58 PM

As far as giving up all supplements, I’ve tried to do that recently – I put them all in a box, sealed it up with duct tape, and placed it in my closet – unfortunately I discovered I didn’t have the will power to not try and find that quick fix for this anxiety that I’ve been experiencing lately.

 

I`ve done exactly the same in the past myself. I always ended up desperate and thought "it can`t get any worse than this, so I have nothing to loose try something anyway". But the fact is that it often do not work at all or make things worse/creating new imbalances. Another thing is, if you find something that "work", you may just mask a underlying problem that has to be dealt with anyway. It is my understanding that GABA/glutamate, serotonin, dopamine and so on work together in a complex way and are not fully understood. The same applies for hormones. Hormones also affect neurotransmitters and other hormones.

 

I`ve tried almost all of the meds/supps in scienceguys list(+many more) and the only thing I can suggest is propranolol in low doses and infrequent use(only on worst days). Also magnesium(citrat, malat or glycinat) if you not get paradoxical reaction from this as well(I got this over time) and maybe Inositol. 

 

I have recently also some very limited moderate positive experience with pure cannabidiol, but the effect seemed to vanish after continual use(couple of days). Positive effects was mild/subtle and sleep related.

 

Do you take fish oil? It took me years to find out that my adrenaline surges was intensified big time by this, I dont know why. Others say they feel better with it.

I`ll say the best way to take it anyway is salmon/caviar or other "whole" fish product. I don't experience the same problem when eating the real deal.

Also other "harmless" supps. as multivitamins and so on can cause troubles, best way to get what you need is from a balanced diet I think.

Try stop consuming all kinds of black or green tea, coffee - even caffeine free and cocoa/chocolate(teobromine) and other xanthine alkaloid containing foods/stimulants(tobacco).

 

How is your gut working? There have been some information the last years telling us that brain health could be connected to gut health and microbial gut flora. Gut health is important in any case.

 

Good to see you are aware of the benedryl use. Keep it and other antihistamines to a minimum, I think some of my own problems partly could be due to long term antihistamine use for sleep.

 

If you can afford it or know someone to do it, try massage, it could maybe give you a small relief in the moment.

 

Hang in there and be patient, the body works very slow on re-balancing this kind of imbalances and therefore cause desperation to find the magic supplement.



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#8 drawingablank

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 11:17 PM

Thank you for the lengthy reply. I read it yesterday but was having a difficult time gathering my thoughts whenever I sat down and tried to write a reply.

Honestly, I'm still having difficulty. As I stated in my original post I had placed an order for tianeptine. The first day I tried it (Thursday) within what felt like minutes I felt a vast improvement in my anxiety and general sense of well being. I don't think it was a placebo effect because I haven't been reacting to anything, at least not positively, of late. My thoughts felt clear and positive and my anxiety was non existent but these effects only lasted for about 4 or so hours (not suprising as the half life of tianeptine I read is 2.5 hours.) The anxiety then began to once again reemerge. I took another dose of approx. 12 mg and again my anxiety subsided but that night for the life of me I couldn’t get to sleep. I eventually gave in and took some benedryl and where I normally have dreamless sleep after taking benedryl, I instead had extremely vivid dreams which I remembered exceptionally well upon waking. The second day I took another approximate dose of 12mg and again felt better anxiety wise but was having a difficult time trying to write a reply on here. Again, some hours later anxiety reemerged, again I took another 12 or so mg, again felt better. I actually went outside with my dog during day light hours which I haven’t done in months. But again some 4 or so hours later the anxiety reemerged; I didn’t want to take a 3rd dose as I was worried I would again have difficulty getting to sleep. The anxiety was a lot more anger filled; I felt like I wanted to start punching the bathroom mirror. Again, I couldn’t get to sleep without benedryl. I decided not to continue taking tianeptine; maybe 2 days in was to early to tell if it might eventually help or not; but I feel like anything that keeps me from natural sleep will only do more harm then good at this point in my life.

Today I feel very off - shaky almost; also anxiety ridden, and just unsure and uneasy in general.

Ideally, abstaining from all supplements or meds would be ideal and just letting my body and mind try to regain some sort of balance on their own in due time but my outlook is so negative of late that I feel I need something to help motivate in the right direction. Like I said, I’m barely able to leave my house; it’s been 5 months since I’ve lost my job and that time, in which I’ve spiraled down to what feels like I deep dark hole, has gone by in what feels like a month or two at most.
I have family members who urge me to get on an SSRI but I’ve always been weary and skeptical of them, especially since I have family members on them who don’t seem that much better off since starting treatment with them. I am also skeptical of trying them because it seems like anything that I try that is meant to affect my serotonin makes me feel worse; (as in 5-htp or tryptophan increasing anxiety).

Again, sorry to be repeating myself, but it seems like on the days I take some sort of dopamine precursor I am able to function better and my outlook is far more positive. I think that due to this I will continue to supplement with them. Again, as you stated the idea of not really supplementing with anything and just eating healthy does seem ideal, but, I really need some sort of help at the moment, to at least help with this grim outlook on things that I’m plagued with most of the time.

As far as my gut health; it’s not great; I do often times have difficulty with digestion. I did get some probiotics but haven’t been as consistent as I should be with them. Would probiotics be enough to fix gut health or would I need to supplement with some sort of digestive enzymes? Or is further supplementation to fix gut health worse than no supplementation?

Also, I did try inositol, I tried 1 gram at first and worked my way up to 4 grams but I didn't notice any sort of relief from anxiety and it gave me very bizarre dreams which I didn't want to have anymore.  Ideally I would like to be able to sleep a dreamless sleep.

 

Fish oil I do take; last summer I actually had a period where I wasn't feeling great, more so physically, and was able to go and get some blood work done.  It showed that I was low on Vitamin D and high on Cortisol.  I began to take vitamin D with extra fish oil and was recommended Cordyceps by someone for the cortisol and I actually felt much better; about a month or so after supplementing with that combination (as well as dropping all stimulants and caffeine) I felt exceptionally well actually.  I was able to work out with the use of caffeine; I was able to sleep without the use of any sleep aid.   It was this past November, after falling back into propylhexedrine use (which i'm certain screwed up my dopamine / serotonin / NE levels) and again consuming stim heavy pre workout drinks in order to have energy to work out that I feel I have screwed myself up pretty damn well (on top of just my situation in life in general which really has me down.)

Again, thank your previous reply and the time you took writing it.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: anxiety, panic disorder, insomnia, uncontrollable libido, drug use, elevated cortisol

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