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Does the cells alive system (CAS) work?

cryonics cas cells alive system

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#1 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 07:03 AM


The Cells Alive System uses an electromagnetic field to cryopreserve biological tissues.

 

Recently there appeared a video on youtube, that shows supercooled water with the system, that freezes instantly after a small, but sudden mechanical action over it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This effect, however, can be replicated in home conditions, without the need of CAS. There comes the question, is the CAS a really working device, or the video is simply a magic trick, and the CAS useless device? Videos for producing and freezing supercooled water with using a completely usual freezer or ice box circulate for a long time on youtube.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder what do you think about that? Does the CAS really work? And if it works, and cryopreserves tissues on that way, then can the same cryopreservation be achieved without the CAS system?


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#2 Antonio2014

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 09:29 AM

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Supercooling


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#3 YOLF

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 06:37 PM

Ths makes it look like a hoax.... I think the guys hand would freeze to the bottle at -82C... Disappointing...


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#4 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 07:45 PM

Hm... wasn't that   - 8,2 C (minus eight point two degrees celsium)  on the first video?



#5 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 08:15 PM

By the way, the videos, that show fast supercooled water freeze on youtube are much more, than I expected. There are many of them.  

 

Tricks with super cooled water explained:

 

 

The instant freeze even without the use of a freezer, but only the outside extreme cold.

 

 

 



#6 DeadMeat

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 08:17 PM

The water bottle thingy is from 2009 and from the description, seems to be just a random buyer playing around with it(not meant as proof of anything). But they have done quite a few studies on tissues and cells with it now.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23466687

Cryopreservation of human embryonic stem cells by a programmed freezer with an oscillating magnetic field.
Lin PY1, Yang YC, Hung SH, Lee SY, Lee MS, Chu IM, Hwang SM.

Human embryonic stem cells (hESCs), due to their self-renewal capacity and pluripotency, are an important source of cells for regenerative medicine. The immediate obstacles that need to be addressed are the poor cell survival rate of hESCs and their cell quality after cryopreservation. In this study, we used the Cell Alive System (CAS) which combines a programmed freezer with an oscillating magnetic field to reduce cryo-injury during the freezing process. The hESC clumps suspended in freezing medium were divided into three groups: (i) cells frozen by a conventional freezing container, Mr. Frosty and kept in a -80 °C freezer (MF); (ii) cells frozen to -32 °C by CAS, and then transferred to a -80 °C freezer (CAS); (iii) cells frozen to -32 °C by CAS, and then transferred to a pre-cooled Mr. Frosty and kept in a -80 °C freezer (CAS-MF) for overnight. All cryovials were placed in liquid nitrogen for one week, and hESCs were then thawed and cultured on feeder for 7 days. The results of alkaline phosphatase (AP) staining showed that the attachment efficiency of the cells cryopreserved by CAS and CAS-MF was significantly higher (29.0% and 44.0%) than in the MF method (7.0%). Furthermore, we confirmed the cells cryopreserved using CAS-MF could be subcultured while expressing pluripotent markers, differentiate into three germ layers, and maintain a normal karyotype. These results demonstrate that the use of CAS-MF offers an efficient method of hESC banking.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25583005

Cranial bone regeneration after cranioplasty using cryopreserved autogenous bone by a programmed freezer with a magnetic field in rats.
Kaku M, Koseki H, Kojima S, Sumi H, Shikata H, Kojima S, Motokawa M, Fujita T, Tanimoto K, Tanne K.

The purpose of this study was to develop a bone tissue bank using a programmed freezer with a magnetic field. Parietal bones were removed from rats and used for organ culture examination (non-cryopreserved, cryopreserved with a magnetic field (CAS) and cryopreserved without a magnetic field group). Next, other parietal bones were used for histological examination. The cryopreserved bones by a CAS freezer and dried bones were transplanted respectively. Control bones were replanted without cryopreservation. Animals were sacrificed at 4, 8, 12 and 24 weeks after surgery. After organ culture, the isolated osteoblasts from parietal bones which were cryopreserved by a CAS freezer can survive and proliferate as much as non-cryopreserved group. Histological examinations showed new bone formation in control and CAS group. These results suggest that bone tissue cryopreservation by CAS freezer can be successfully used for bone grafting which may be a novel option for regeneration medicine.

Mesenchymal stem cells(MSCs):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23954814
Dental pulp stem cells without DMSO:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24856869


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#7 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:14 AM

What is from 2009? The CAS video or (some of) the other videos?

 

I know about the super cooling of water from a long time. It is an empirically found fact from very long time ago, and it is a famous trick from the countries, where the temperatures drop very low (during the winter season). I will not be surprised if this phenomenon is known from centuries. I personally knew about it before 2009, simply I didn't know, that the CAS has a similar (or even the same) effect on the water.

 

A friend of mine, with who I correspond via emails, claims, that the system really works, and the effects are not absolutely the same. He pointed me to these two web addresses:

http://www.rayswebst...Brochure_01.pdf

 

I wonder what is the opinion of the cryonicists here? I think, that they must have heard something for the water supercooling. 



#8 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:11 AM

If CAS doesn't produce amorphous ice (and it seems that their temperature isn't low enough for that), ice crystals will form and cells will be damaged. Also, how do you prevent nucleation on a human body (instead of pure water or some special animal species)?


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#9 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:19 AM

A very good point - amorphous, not crystal ice is what will cryopreserve us. Vitrification is the keyword. So,maybe the CAS system is useless for the cryopreservation of our bodies, after all.

 

On the opposite, @DeadMeat showed researches, that show, that the cryopreservation effect of the CAS is good.

 

So, again comes the question what to believe - the published scientific researches, or the common sense :(  Awful situation.


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#10 YOLF

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:27 PM

What is from 2009? The CAS video or (some of) the other videos?

 

I know about the super cooling of water from a long time. It is an empirically found fact from very long time ago, and it is a famous trick from the countries, where the temperatures drop very low (during the winter season). I will not be surprised if this phenomenon is known from centuries. I personally knew about it before 2009, simply I didn't know, that the CAS has a similar (or even the same) effect on the water.

 

A friend of mine, with who I correspond via emails, claims, that the system really works, and the effects are not absolutely the same. He pointed me to these two web addresses:

http://www.rayswebst...Brochure_01.pdf

 

I wonder what is the opinion of the cryonicists here? I think, that they must have heard something for the water supercooling. 

I spoke with some of the cryonicists responsible for the technologies currently in development. They expressed that the cost of the devices was too high just to do some testing with it. I had suggested a fundraiser for such a device and some studies and they declined. I had someone lined up to freeze a mouse in a DIY CAS system based on the patent and was told we'd just be murdering the mice needlessly and that it wouldn't work any different than any other freezer... The answers on this one are inconsistent and coming from patent holders of competing technologies. What does this mean? I had envisioned that the technologies would be working together, but maybe the designers feel that there won't be enough room in the budget of a cryonics procedure to allow for more than one technology? Is this a case where greed is interfering with the progress of a medical technology? Animal rights activists? Or is all of this (cryonics included) an embarrassing scam that isn't meant to elicit scientific investigation but rather hoodwink wouldbe life extensionists and investigation of the technology needs to be discouraged because doing so will cause the scam to create moral hazards? I'm growing ever more skeptical of cryonics in general and this CAS debacle is one of the reasons I've decided against getting life insurance for cryonics and started suggesting annuities were a better idea. In fact, putting all this together with the nature of life insurance strongly suggests to me that cryonics is a life insurance scam and that some charitable organization has the go ahead to dupe would be immortals out of regular payments for their ends or something like that. For that reason, I'm insisting that we all insist on cryonics companies accepting annuities for 100% of services including standby services. Alot of legitimization seems necessary here.

 

I've kept the kid gloves on for this in the past as I've wanted to support cryonics, but I'm no longer willing to hope cryonics works out as we're being told it will. I mean come on... we'll be dead, and if it's all a scam with a legal pass, we'll be helpless to fight it and we'll never get that money back and will in fact have diverted money from things that could have extended our lives or made them more pleasurable and meaningful. It's just too much of an expense for such a plausible possibility to occur. Sorry, unless things change I'm out, but I'll be getting an annuity as soon as I am able and if they'll accept it someday and cryonics becomes a mass movement, I'll get it. Otherwise, I'm primarily counting on aging escape velocity. Who's going to need our insurance money anyways if later generations are almost certainly going to make it to aging escape velocity?


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#11 YOLF

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:33 PM

If CAS doesn't produce amorphous ice (and it seems that their temperature isn't low enough for that), ice crystals will form and cells will be damaged. Also, how do you prevent nucleation on a human body (instead of pure water or some special animal species)?

In one video demonstration, they showed frozen fish whose tissue had been ruptured and CAS frozen fish whose tissue had not been ruptured in the freezing process and was preserved with high fidelity. They also demonstrated with steaks. 

 

Actually, I do work on weekends as a product demonstrator for very similar industries and am otherwise unemployed. Maybe ABS/CAS needs someone like me to sell and demonstrate their technologies? It would be a good way to test out the technology and see if it really works with our own eyes or is just a scam as we are lead to believe.



#12 YOLF

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:37 PM

A very good point - amorphous, not crystal ice is what will cryopreserve us. Vitrification is the keyword. So,maybe the CAS system is useless for the cryopreservation of our bodies, after all.

 

On the opposite, @DeadMeat showed researches, that show, that the cryopreservation effect of the CAS is good.

 

So, again comes the question what to believe - the published scientific researches, or the common sense :(  Awful situation.

I think the idea is to progressively depress the temperature at which crystals form with a combination of technologies until we have a nontoxic solution that is immediately reversible.



#13 YOLF

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:40 PM

I suppose one other possibility is that there have been unpublished studies showing that the technologies don't work for cryonics that we don't know about, but why hide it? It's an inspiration to find a better solution. The level of ambiguity here is vexing...


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#14 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 05:02 PM

I spoke with some of the cryonicists responsible for the technologies currently in development. They expressed that the cost of the devices was too high just to do some testing with it. I had suggested a fundraiser for such a device and some studies and they declined. I had someone lined up to freeze a mouse in a DIY CAS system based on the patent and was told we'd just be murdering the mice needlessly and that it wouldn't work any different than any other freezer... The answers on this one are inconsistent and coming from patent holders of competing technologies. What does this mean? I had envisioned that the technologies would be working together, but maybe the designers feel that there won't be enough room in the budget of a cryonics procedure to allow for more than one technology? Is this a case where greed is interfering with the progress of a medical technology? Animal rights activists? Or is all of this (cryonics included) an embarrassing scam that isn't meant to elicit scientific investigation but rather hoodwink wouldbe life extensionists and investigation of the technology needs to be discouraged because doing so will cause the scam to create moral hazards? I'm growing ever more skeptical of cryonics in general and this CAS debacle is one of the reasons I've decided against getting life insurance for cryonics and started suggesting annuities were a better idea. In fact, putting all this together with the nature of life insurance strongly suggests to me that cryonics is a life insurance scam and that some charitable organization has the go ahead to dupe would be immortals out of regular payments for their ends or something like that.

 

WTF? CAS has nothing to do with cryonics organizations. None of them uses or has used CAS, and cryonics scientific support has nothing to do with CAS.

 

As for support for cryonics, there are lots of papers that document the amount of damage done with cryopreservation, and it doesn't seem a critical amount of damage. Brain tissues have been cryopreserved and thawed to a functional state, and also a rabbit kidney[1]. Thousands of people have been born from cryopreserved embryos. We still are unable to thaw something bigger than a rabbit kidney to a functional state, but that doesn't mean it's a scam. It's simply an open research field, like cancer therapy or nuclear fusion. We know how to cryopreserve tissues and whole organisms without critical damage, but we don't know yet how to rewarm big organs or animals to a functional state. That's why cryonics organizations only offer cryopreservation but not rewarming.

 

[1] http://www.benbest.c...stification.pdf


Edited by YOLF, 03 April 2015 - 11:20 PM.


#15 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 05:31 PM

I spoke with some of the cryonicists responsible for the technologies currently in development. They expressed that the cost of the devices was too high just to do some testing with it. I had suggested a fundraiser for such a device and some studies and they declined. I had someone lined up to freeze a mouse in a DIY CAS system based on the patent and was told we'd just be murdering the mice needlessly and that it wouldn't work any different than any other freezer... The answers on this one are inconsistent and coming from patent holders of competing technologies. What does this mean? I had envisioned that the technologies would be working together, but maybe the designers feel that there won't be enough room in the budget of a cryonics procedure to allow for more than one technology? Is this a case where greed is interfering with the progress of a medical technology? Animal rights activists? Or is all of this (cryonics included) an embarrassing scam that isn't meant to elicit scientific investigation but rather hoodwink wouldbe life extensionists and investigation of the technology needs to be discouraged because doing so will cause the scam to create moral hazards? I'm growing ever more skeptical of cryonics in general and this CAS debacle is one of the reasons I've decided against getting life insurance for cryonics and started suggesting annuities were a better idea. In fact, putting all this together with the nature of life insurance strongly suggests to me that cryonics is a life insurance scam and that some charitable organization has the go ahead to dupe would be immortals out of regular payments for their ends or something like that. For that reason, I'm insisting that we all insist on cryonics companies accepting annuities for 100% of services including standby services. Alot of legitimization seems necessary here.

 

I've kept the kid gloves on for this in the past as I've wanted to support cryonics, but I'm no longer willing to hope cryonics works out as we're being told it will. I mean come on... we'll be dead, and if it's all a scam with a legal pass, we'll be helpless to fight it and we'll never get that money back and will in fact have diverted money from things that could have extended our lives or made them more pleasurable and meaningful. It's just too much of an expense for such a plausible possibility to occur. Sorry, unless things change I'm out, but I'll be getting an annuity as soon as I am able and if they'll accept it someday and cryonics becomes a mass movement, I'll get it. Otherwise, I'm primarily counting on aging escape velocity. Who's going to need our insurance money anyways if later generations are almost certainly going to make it to aging escape velocity?

 

 

Don't get absolutely despair because of one potentially not working technology, friend. Even if it doesn't work really, I believe, that there will be more technologies appearing in the future, and the cryonics as a concept may work in the long run. We never know how the future will look like. Even if nanobots don't work out, there may appear a third, completely different technology, that we can't imagine today, that will solve the cryonics problems.

 

So, it appears, that the CAS technology costs too much. I don't know what the cost of such a freezer is, but I think the technology itself would not have to be that expensive. I think, that when the patent period expires, there will appear cheaper versions of the device. Plus the technology may evolve. More patents on that technology may appear.
 

Was the CAS team, who told you, that the mouse will not survive?

 

Could the cryonics itself be a scam? I don't know. I hope it is not. At least not all of the cryonics organizations. What exactly is accepting of  annuities for standby services. How the procedure is being payed today?

 

 

I think the idea is to progressively depress the temperature at which crystals form with a combination of technologies until we have a nontoxic solution that is immediately reversible.

 

 

Sounds like a nice idea.
 

I suppose one other possibility is that there have been unpublished studies showing that the technologies don't work for cryonics that we don't know about, but why hide it? It's an inspiration to find a better solution. The level of ambiguity here is vexing...

 

I don't know for researches, but I know, that there have been existing cryonics corporations, which bankrupted. I don't know their names, only the fact of their existence.
 



#16 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 06:43 PM

I don't know for researches, but I know, that there have been existing cryonics corporations, which bankrupted. I don't know their names, only the fact of their existence.

Here is a history of cryonics: http://www.benbest.c...cs/history.html


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#17 DeadMeat

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:16 PM

What is from 2009? The CAS video or (some of) the other videos?

 

I know about the super cooling of water from a long time. It is an empirically found fact from very long time ago, and it is a famous trick from the countries, where the temperatures drop very low (during the winter season). I will not be surprised if this phenomenon is known from centuries. I personally knew about it before 2009, simply I didn't know, that the CAS has a similar (or even the same) effect on the water.

 

A friend of mine, with who I correspond via emails, claims, that the system really works, and the effects are not absolutely the same. He pointed me to these two web addresses:

http://www.rayswebst...Brochure_01.pdf

 

I wonder what is the opinion of the cryonicists here? I think, that they must have heard something for the water supercooling. 

 

The CAS video, not that the date really matters. From its youtube description:

Uploaded on Feb 27, 2009
The supplier said it was not possible to super cool water in the rig we had, but we are so stubborn we did it anyways :)
This is a bottle of store bought water chilled down to -8.2 celcius without freezing...
the water does not freeze until we disrupt the molecular flow of the water by smashing it against the side of the freezer

 

I meant that it's just from a user of the device. Its not an official video from CAS claiming some CAS specific effect. Also the fact that other things can supercool as well doesn't mean much, if you don't compare the maximum degree of supercooling that can be achieved and what happens after that etc. If supercooling is relevant for CAS with tissues instead of pure water or mostly water in the first place.



#18 DeadMeat

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:43 PM

If CAS doesn't produce amorphous ice (and it seems that their temperature isn't low enough for that), ice crystals will form and cells will be damaged. Also, how do you prevent nucleation on a human body (instead of pure water or some special animal species)?

 

Its a programmable freezer so you can set the temperature and stuff. And supercooling doesn't necessarily mean you can't get few ice crystals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25403324

Intact preservation of environmental samples by freezing under an alternating magnetic field.
Morono Y1, Terada T, Yamamoto Y, Xiao N, Hirose T, Sugeno M, Ohwada N, Inagaki F.

The study of environmental samples requires a preservation system that stabilizes the sample structure, including cells and biomolecules. To address this fundamental issue, we tested the cell alive system (CAS)-freezing technique for subseafloor sediment core samples. In the CAS-freezing technique, an alternating magnetic field is applied during the freezing process to produce vibration of water molecules and achieve a stable, super-cooled liquid phase. Upon further cooling, the temperature decreases further, achieving a uniform freezing of sample with minimal ice crystal formation. In this study, samples were preserved using the CAS and conventional freezing techniques at 4, -20, -80 and -196 (liquid nitrogen) °C. After 6 months of storage, microbial cell counts by conventional freezing significantly decreased (down to 10.7% of initial), whereas that by CAS-freezing resulted in minimal. When Escherichia coli cells were tested under the same freezing conditions and storage for 2.5 months, CAS-frozen E. coli cells showed higher viability than the other conditions. In addition, an alternating magnetic field does not impact on the direction of remanent magnetization in sediment core samples, although slight partial demagnetization in intensity due to freezing was observed. Consequently, our data indicate that the CAS technique is highly useful for the preservation of environmental samples.

 

Although the mechanism of effect still seems to be a bit controversial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24333152

A ferromagnetic model for the action of electric and magnetic fields in cryopreservation.
Kobayashi A, Kirschvink JL.

Recent discussions in the literature have questioned the ability of electromagnetic exposure to inhibit ice crystal formation in supercooled water. Here we note that strong electric fields are able to disrupt the surface boundary layer of inert air on the surface of materials, promoting higher rates of heat transport. We also note that most biological tissues contain ferromagnetic materials, both biologically precipitated magnetite (Fe3O4) as well as environmental contaminants that get accidentally incorporated into living systems. Although present at trace levels, the number density of these particulates is high, and they have extraordinarily strong interactions with weak, low-frequency magnetic fields of the sort involved in claims of electromagnetic cryopreservation. Magnetically-induced mechanical oscillation of these particles provides a plausible mechanism for the disruption of ice-crystal nucleation in supercooled water.


#19 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 09:16 PM

 

If CAS doesn't produce amorphous ice (and it seems that their temperature isn't low enough for that), ice crystals will form and cells will be damaged. Also, how do you prevent nucleation on a human body (instead of pure water or some special animal species)?

 

Its a programmable freezer so you can set the temperature and stuff. And supercooling doesn't necessarily mean you can't get few ice crystals.

 

What do you mean by "get few ice crystals"? Do you refer to my first sentence (amorphous ice is formed) or the second one (there aren't crystals for nucleation)?


Edited by Antonio2014, 03 April 2015 - 09:19 PM.


#20 YOLF

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:19 PM

 

I spoke with some of the cryonicists responsible for the technologies currently in development. They expressed that the cost of the devices was too high just to do some testing with it. I had suggested a fundraiser for such a device and some studies and they declined. I had someone lined up to freeze a mouse in a DIY CAS system based on the patent and was told we'd just be murdering the mice needlessly and that it wouldn't work any different than any other freezer... The answers on this one are inconsistent and coming from patent holders of competing technologies. What does this mean? I had envisioned that the technologies would be working together, but maybe the designers feel that there won't be enough room in the budget of a cryonics procedure to allow for more than one technology? Is this a case where greed is interfering with the progress of a medical technology? Animal rights activists? Or is all of this (cryonics included) an embarrassing scam that isn't meant to elicit scientific investigation but rather hoodwink wouldbe life extensionists and investigation of the technology needs to be discouraged because doing so will cause the scam to create moral hazards? I'm growing ever more skeptical of cryonics in general and this CAS debacle is one of the reasons I've decided against getting life insurance for cryonics and started suggesting annuities were a better idea. In fact, putting all this together with the nature of life insurance strongly suggests to me that cryonics is a life insurance scam and that some charitable organization has the go ahead to dupe would be immortals out of regular payments for their ends or something like that.

 

WTF? CAS has nothing to do with cryonics organizations. None of them uses or has used CAS, and cryonics scientific support has nothing to do with CAS.

 

As for support for cryonics, there are lots of papers that document the amount of damage done with cryopreservation, and it doesn't seem a critical amount of damage. Brain tissues have been cryopreserved and thawed to a functional state, and also a rabbit kidney[1]. Thousands of people have been born from cryopreserved embryos. We still are unable to thaw something bigger than a rabbit kidney to a functional state, but that doesn't mean it's a scam. It's simply an open research field, like cancer therapy or nuclear fusion. We know how to cryopreserve tissues and whole organisms without critical damage, but we don't know yet how to rewarm big organs or animals to a functional state. That's why cryonics organizations only offer cryopreservation but not rewarming.

 

[1] http://www.benbest.c...stification.pdf

 

All of these things have limitations and it's not that CAS is a problem, it's the responses from those I've talked to in the earlier part of the post. The rabbit kidney was functional but needed additional repair. The guy who did the study explained it further in some videos on youtube. It's not perfect and it's not getting better because it for some reason doesn't have mass appeal. So why doesn't it have mass appeal? Maybe everyone else knows something we don't. The masses do have some rather large scams which they are happy to perpetuate to weed out people who they disagree with on some matters. I don't see why cryonics couldn't be just the same.


Edited by YOLF, 03 April 2015 - 11:21 PM.

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#21 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 03 April 2015 - 11:49 PM

 

I spoke with some of the cryonicists responsible for the technologies currently in development. They expressed that the cost of the devices was too high just to do some testing with it. I had suggested a fundraiser for such a device and some studies and they declined. I had someone lined up to freeze a mouse in a DIY CAS system based on the patent and was told we'd just be murdering the mice needlessly and that it wouldn't work any different than any other freezer... The answers on this one are inconsistent and coming from patent holders of competing technologies. What does this mean? I had envisioned that the technologies would be working together, but maybe the designers feel that there won't be enough room in the budget of a cryonics procedure to allow for more than one technology? Is this a case where greed is interfering with the progress of a medical technology? Animal rights activists? Or is all of this (cryonics included) an embarrassing scam that isn't meant to elicit scientific investigation but rather hoodwink wouldbe life extensionists and investigation of the technology needs to be discouraged because doing so will cause the scam to create moral hazards? I'm growing ever more skeptical of cryonics in general and this CAS debacle is one of the reasons I've decided against getting life insurance for cryonics and started suggesting annuities were a better idea. In fact, putting all this together with the nature of life insurance strongly suggests to me that cryonics is a life insurance scam and that some charitable organization has the go ahead to dupe would be immortals out of regular payments for their ends or something like that. For that reason, I'm insisting that we all insist on cryonics companies accepting annuities for 100% of services including standby services. Alot of legitimization seems necessary here.

 

I've kept the kid gloves on for this in the past as I've wanted to support cryonics, but I'm no longer willing to hope cryonics works out as we're being told it will. I mean come on... we'll be dead, and if it's all a scam with a legal pass, we'll be helpless to fight it and we'll never get that money back and will in fact have diverted money from things that could have extended our lives or made them more pleasurable and meaningful. It's just too much of an expense for such a plausible possibility to occur. Sorry, unless things change I'm out, but I'll be getting an annuity as soon as I am able and if they'll accept it someday and cryonics becomes a mass movement, I'll get it. Otherwise, I'm primarily counting on aging escape velocity. Who's going to need our insurance money anyways if later generations are almost certainly going to make it to aging escape velocity?

 

 

Don't get absolutely despair because of one potentially not working technology, friend. Even if it doesn't work really, I believe, that there will be more technologies appearing in the future, and the cryonics as a concept may work in the long run. We never know how the future will look like. Even if nanobots don't work out, there may appear a third, completely different technology, that we can't imagine today, that will solve the cryonics problems.

 

So, it appears, that the CAS technology costs too much. I don't know what the cost of such a freezer is, but I think the technology itself would not have to be that expensive. I think, that when the patent period expires, there will appear cheaper versions of the device. Plus the technology may evolve. More patents on that technology may appear.
 

Was the CAS team, who told you, that the mouse will not survive?

 

Could the cryonics itself be a scam? I don't know. I hope it is not. At least not all of the cryonics organizations. What exactly is accepting of  annuities for standby services. How the procedure is being payed today?

 

 

I think the idea is to progressively depress the temperature at which crystals form with a combination of technologies until we have a nontoxic solution that is immediately reversible.

 

 

Sounds like a nice idea.
 

I suppose one other possibility is that there have been unpublished studies showing that the technologies don't work for cryonics that we don't know about, but why hide it? It's an inspiration to find a better solution. The level of ambiguity here is vexing...

 

I don't know for researches, but I know, that there have been existing cryonics corporations, which bankrupted. I don't know their names, only the fact of their existence.
 

 

No despair... thinks just aren't adding up for me. I think we all come to cryonics in despair and then it wears of or we realize just how speculative it is and begin to question the legitimacy of it all. This is what everyone else does and those who subscribe to cryonics most often think of others as stupid for not wanting it. That means it takes a certain kind of person to get interested in it and then you have the people who believe they are doing some form of good by creating a farce to distract people from actually accomplishing a goal. I think that's what most people understand of cryonics and I really want cryonics and believe in it and want to see it work. There is an entirely legitimate reason to have cryonics for all and I'm not sure if it's being given a chance to exist. There is always a reason not to try something, not to do something... 

 

Now let's take a look at the question you asked. "How is cryonics paid for now?"

 

Cryonics is most commonly paid for with something you pay for but never see and can rarely benefit from. Something that's made for someone else to benefit from. People buy life insurance to take care of their families if they die before doing everything they wanted to accomplish and to spare them from poverty. Yet  they make cryonics available to even the poor by saying you can just get life insurance. Can you see a sacrificial lamb (would be cryonicists and immortalists) being exploited here? Right now you either have to pay in advance or use life insurance and maybe a combination of other things. But I couldn't leave my house or annuity alone to a cryonics company... I can't pay for cryonics entirely with something I can benefit from or live off of in the mean time. In otherwords, I'm taking on a measure of austerity to buy into cryonics. The life insurance policy I was going to buy was going to cost me $161k in payments and pay out as much as $2.5M upon my death. But that's money I'd never see if I'm dead and rotting in a hole and money that could have amounted to much more had I invested it or bought something with relatively stable value. 

 

There is also the real possibility of bringing the cost down to $5k yet it's like a unicorn cause we'll never have 11 million people to get it set up that way and the companies don't seem to be interested in pursuing such a thing. Maybe it's because $5k won't go very far or maybe there aren't 11 million people b/c the mass majority is happy to have fake cryonics as a distraction and find living forever to be a moral hazard according to their way of life.

 

What does it look like when you try to solve all the problems?


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#22 DeadMeat

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 01:07 AM

 

 

If CAS doesn't produce amorphous ice (and it seems that their temperature isn't low enough for that), ice crystals will form and cells will be damaged. Also, how do you prevent nucleation on a human body (instead of pure water or some special animal species)?

 

Its a programmable freezer so you can set the temperature and stuff. And supercooling doesn't necessarily mean you can't get few ice crystals.

 

What do you mean by "get few ice crystals"? Do you refer to my first sentence (amorphous ice is formed) or the second one (there aren't crystals for nucleation)?

 

The first, but you probably can't have the first without the second. By "In the CAS-freezing technique, an alternating magnetic field is applied during the freezing process to produce vibration of water molecules and achieve a stable, super-cooled liquid phase. Upon further cooling, the temperature decreases further, achieving a uniform freezing of sample with minimal ice crystal formation." in that first abstract, I assume they mean mostly amorphous ice is formed. And that this was possible due to super cooling to that point(ideally Tglass I assume). And that super cooling was possible due to whatever the alternating magnetic field did to prevent/disrupt nucleation and keep it stable(or that seems to be what they claim there at least).



#23 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:28 AM

I tried to replicate the supercooled fast water freeze with an ordinary ice box freezer, but I failed. I know, that such a freezing is possible, but I am not sure if on the videos they say everything necessary, or there may be other important things for that, that they don't say. Why not we all try to replicate the fast water freeze with a plastic bottle of water and the home freezer.

 

 

No despair... thinks just aren't adding up for me. I think we all come to cryonics in despair and then it wears of or we realize just how speculative it is and begin to question the legitimacy of it all. This is what everyone else does and those who subscribe to cryonics most often think of others as stupid for not wanting it. That means it takes a certain kind of person to get interested in it and then you have the people who believe they are doing some form of good by creating a farce to distract people from actually accomplishing a goal. I think that's what most people understand of cryonics and I really want cryonics and believe in it and want to see it work. There is an entirely legitimate reason to have cryonics for all and I'm not sure if it's being given a chance to exist. There is always a reason not to try something, not to do something... 

 

 

 

Now let's take a look at the question you asked. "How is cryonics paid for now?"

 

Cryonics is most commonly paid for with something you pay for but never see and can rarely benefit from. Something that's made for someone else to benefit from. People buy life insurance to take care of their families if they die before doing everything they wanted to accomplish and to spare them from poverty. Yet  they make cryonics available to even the poor by saying you can just get life insurance. Can you see a sacrificial lamb (would be cryonicists and immortalists) being exploited here? Right now you either have to pay in advance or use life insurance and maybe a combination of other things. But I couldn't leave my house or annuity alone to a cryonics company... I can't pay for cryonics entirely with something I can benefit from or live off of in the mean time. In otherwords, I'm taking on a measure of austerity to buy into cryonics. The life insurance policy I was going to buy was going to cost me $161k in payments and pay out as much as $2.5M upon my death. But that's money I'd never see if I'm dead and rotting in a hole and money that could have amounted to much more had I invested it or bought something with relatively stable value. 

 

There is also the real possibility of bringing the cost down to $5k yet it's like a unicorn cause we'll never have 11 million people to get it set up that way and the companies don't seem to be interested in pursuing such a thing. Maybe it's because $5k won't go very far or maybe there aren't 11 million people b/c the mass majority is happy to have fake cryonics as a distraction and find living forever to be a moral hazard according to their way of life.

 

What does it look like when you try to solve all the problems?

 

 

You have understood very well the psychology of the cryonicists. Yes, we all go to cryonics from despair. How it was the word "It is the second bad thing, that may happen to us", right? And when we learn more, we start to question, correct. Maybe it is a part from our biology to do so. And also those who subscribe to cryonics most often think of others as stupid for not wanting it. I am an example :) lol.

 

Cryonics is really payed for something you don't see, but if it manages to bring you to the distant future, when you will be immortal,you will be able to benefit from it.

If you have $161 k for the life insurance, then you will have enough money for whole body cryopreservation in the Cryonics Institute, so the life insurance strategy really seems illogical in this case. I also want to make the cryonics cheaper, it simply is out of my power (at least at the moment).

If all things come together, it shows a despair driven strategy with an uncertain outcome. Really it is suspicious for a hoax.

 

I think, that the correct thing we should do is to start scientifically developing the cryonics, and to make it work. Fast, before we to die.



#24 Antonio2014

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 11:02 AM

All of these things have limitations and it's not that CAS is a problem, it's the responses from those I've talked to in the earlier part of the post.

 

Maybe they don't consider CAS serious science, or not useful for cryonics because ice crystals are formed, or simply too expensive to try due to patents. Anyway, that doesn't mean that the hundreds of people that work on cryonics in some way or another (most of them as volunteers) are scammers. I find your claims quite insulting to them and difficult to believe.

 

Also, all current medicine has limitations, and (almost all) people don't call it a scam.
 

It's not perfect and it's not getting better because it for some reason doesn't have mass appeal. So why doesn't it have mass appeal? Maybe everyone else knows something we don't.

 

Or maybe some people call it a scam, preventing other people from seriously considering funding it, even when there are a lot of papers supporting it. This possibility seems much more probable to me.

 

The masses do have some rather large scams which they are happy to perpetuate to weed out people who they disagree with on some matters. I don't see why cryonics couldn't be just the same.

 

http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance


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#25 Antonio2014

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 11:32 AM

I think we all come to cryonics in despair and then it wears of or we realize just how speculative it is and begin to question the legitimacy of it all.

 

 

Speak for yourself.

 


Cryonics is most commonly paid for with something you pay for but never see and can rarely benefit from.

 

Absolutely false. What cryonics contracts offer is cryopreservation, not rewarming. Cryonics organizations don't say they can rewarm cryopreserved people, only that probably the technology to do that will be available in the future. Only Alcor reserves some of the money paid by the client for the possible future rewarming, and they never say that they will do the rewarming themselves or that it will be possible for sure, they only reserve the money for when/if it's needed. Nobody can guarantee now that rewarming will be possible in the future, but anybody can guarantee that, if you don't get cryopreserved afeter death, certainly you will not be alive in the future. What cryonics organizations offer is the possibility to be resuscitated in the future, possibility that you will not have if you are buried or cremated. They offer nothing more.

 


Yet  they make cryonics available to even the poor by saying you can just get life insurance. Can you see a sacrificial lamb (would be cryonicists and immortalists) being exploited here? Right now you either have to pay in advance or use life insurance and maybe a combination of other things. But I couldn't leave my house or annuity alone to a cryonics company... I can't pay for cryonics entirely with something I can benefit from or live off of in the mean time. In otherwords, I'm taking on a measure of austerity to buy into cryonics. The life insurance policy I was going to buy was going to cost me $161k in payments and pay out as much as $2.5M upon my death. But that's money I'd never see if I'm dead and rotting in a hole and money that could have amounted to much more had I invested it or bought something with relatively stable value. 

 

There is also the real possibility of bringing the cost down to $5k yet it's like a unicorn cause we'll never have 11 million people to get it set up that way and the companies don't seem to be interested in pursuing such a thing. Maybe it's because $5k won't go very far or maybe there aren't 11 million people b/c the mass majority is happy to have fake cryonics as a distraction and find living forever to be a moral hazard according to their way of life.

 

What does it look like when you try to solve all the problems?

Oh, are you trying to solve them?

 

BTW, the cheaper cryonics contract now available is only $12k.


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#26 Antonio2014

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 11:49 AM

The first, but you probably can't have the first without the second. By "In the CAS-freezing technique, an alternating magnetic field is applied during the freezing process to produce vibration of water molecules and achieve a stable, super-cooled liquid phase. Upon further cooling, the temperature decreases further, achieving a uniform freezing of sample with minimal ice crystal formation." in that first abstract, I assume they mean mostly amorphous ice is formed. And that this was possible due to super cooling to that point(ideally Tglass I assume). And that super cooling was possible due to whatever the alternating magnetic field did to prevent/disrupt nucleation and keep it stable(or that seems to be what they claim there at least).

Thanks, I will have a look at the papers.


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#27 2525

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 01:57 PM

The tests should be performed on mice: to freeze them and then after few days unfreeze them,

and notice if they can continue life as usual.

 

What I found in wikipedia did not give more details about what hapenned afterwards, after the defreezing,

and that it is the most interesting, maybe anyone knows?

 


In June 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to place dogs in suspended animation and bring them back to life, most of them without brain damage, by draining the blood out of the dogs' bodies and injecting a low temperature solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After three hours of being clinically dead, the dogs' blood was returned to their circulatory systems, and the animals were revived by delivering anelectric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life.[98]

On 20 January 2006, doctors from the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston announced they had placed pigs in suspended animation with a similar technique. The pigs wereanaesthetized and major blood loss was induced, along with simulated - via scalpel - severe injuries (e.g. a punctured aorta as might happen in a car accident or shooting). After the pigs lost about half their blood the remaining blood was replaced with a chilled saline solution. As the body temperature reached 10 °C (50 °F) the damaged blood vessel was repaired and the blood was returned. The method was tested 200 times with a 90% success rate.[99]


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#28 Antonio2014

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 02:23 PM

That's not really cryonics. People are routinely maintained clinically dead for 2-3 hours for some cardiac surgeries with the head at low temperature (around 10ºC) and reanimated afterwards. Cryonics involves much lower temperatures (between -130ºC and -169ºC), when all metabolic reactions are stopped. See http://www.benbest.c...stification.pdf


Edited by Antonio2014, 09 April 2015 - 02:27 PM.

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#29 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 05:26 PM

The tests should be performed on mice: to freeze them and then after few days unfreeze them,

and notice if they can continue life as usual.

 

What I found in wikipedia did not give more details about what hapenned afterwards, after the defreezing,

and that it is the most interesting, maybe anyone knows?

 


In June 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to place dogs in suspended animation and bring them back to life, most of them without brain damage, by draining the blood out of the dogs' bodies and injecting a low temperature solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After three hours of being clinically dead, the dogs' blood was returned to their circulatory systems, and the animals were revived by delivering anelectric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life.[98]

On 20 January 2006, doctors from the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston announced they had placed pigs in suspended animation with a similar technique. The pigs wereanaesthetized and major blood loss was induced, along with simulated - via scalpel - severe injuries (e.g. a punctured aorta as might happen in a car accident or shooting). After the pigs lost about half their blood the remaining blood was replaced with a chilled saline solution. As the body temperature reached 10 °C (50 °F) the damaged blood vessel was repaired and the blood was returned. The method was tested 200 times with a 90% success rate.[99]

 

Hi, @2525  !

 

What exactly are you citing?

 

Unfortunately, to test the CAS on mice, the CAS itself will be needed, and it is extremely expensive.
 



#30 YOLF

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 05:30 PM

Well, $10k, if we could get about $7 from each of 1500 cryonicists, we could buy one. We'd still need to pay for shipping etc too, but an average of $7/cryonicist gets us the freezer.







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