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Ten common neurotoxins that are probably wreaking havoc on your brain

neurotoxicity

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#1 axonopathy

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 03:19 AM


1. Floride (fluoridated water)

2. acetaldehyde (ethanol)

3. Aluminum (ubiquitous)

4. Acrylamide (potato chips, coffee, french fries) 

5. Mercury (seafood) 

6. Lead (old pipes, old paint)

7. 6-OHDA (L-dopa, dopaminergic drugs)

8. n-propylbromide (common degreaser / cleaning agent)

9. organophosphates

10. domoic acid

 

I wonder which one of these neurotoxins poses the greatest risk? 

 

Source: [LR]


Edited by YOLF, 31 May 2015 - 03:17 AM.

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#2 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 03:29 AM

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.


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#3 axonopathy

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 03:40 AM

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.

 

I'm curious why you say that about fluoride. What about this paper from Harvard? http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3491930/


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#4 Ark

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:54 AM

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.

fluoride dodestroys the penal gland and plays havoc on your body's molecular processes a little at a time.
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#5 Kalliste

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 12:17 PM

Fluoride is like everything else. Too much and you get damage, even death at grand dosages. Too little and you get deficiency problems.

 

Right now I support Fluoride in dental health products but not adding it to foods, water.

 

It probably does a net good to society by inhibiting millions of pulp-reaching cavities that would otherwise have produced a negative health effects by introducing bacteria into the jaw-bone. It inhibits the use of synthetic filling materials that may or may not contain stuff like Bisphenol A, mercury etc.

It saves people a lot of money and suffering from occuring.

 

In the future we can stop fluoride when we can effectively banish S.Mutans from the oral cavity.

 


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#6 Bateau

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 04:41 PM

 

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.

 

I'm curious why you say that about fluoride. What about this paper from Harvard? http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3491930/

 

 

This paper is an epidemiological observational study that showed that children drinking water heavily contaminated with fluoride (at levels significantly above whats accepted by fluoridation practices in the U.S.) had cognitive impairment

 

Although most reports were fairly brief and complete information on covariates was not available, the results tended to support the potential for fluoride-mediated developmental neurotoxicity at relatively high levels of exposure in some studies...The exposed groups had access to drinking water with fluoride concentrations up to 11.5 mg/L (Wang SX et al. 2007); thus, in many cases concentrations were above recommended levels (0.7–1.2 mg/L; DHHS) or allowed in public drinking water (4.0 mg/L; U.S. EPA) in the United States (U.S. EPA 2011).

→ source (external link)

 

 

Essentiallu it proved that levels of fluoride above levels in acceptable drinking water in the U.S. are toxic, but did not prove levels found in drinking water in the U.S. are toxic.

 

It did however mention two other studies that were much more relevant r.e. potential toxicity of fluoride in U.S. water:

 

A recent cross-sectional study based on individual-level measure of exposures suggested that low levels of water fluoride (range, 0.24–2.84 mg/L) had significant negative associations with children’s intelligence (Ding et al. 2011). This study was not included in our meta-analysis, which focused only on studies with exposed and reference groups, thereby precluding estimation of dose-related effects....

...rats exposed to 1 ppm (50 µmol/L) of water fluoride for 1 year showed morphological alterations in the brain and increased levels of aluminum in brain tissue compared with controls (Varner et al. 1998).

→ source (external link)

 


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#7 sunshinefrost

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 06:19 PM

You forgot MOLD
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#8 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 07:30 PM

A recent cross-sectional study based on individual-level measure of exposures suggested that low levels of water fluoride (range, 0.24–2.84 mg/L) had significant negative associations with children’s intelligence (Ding et al. 2011). This study was not included in our meta-analysis, which focused only on studies with exposed and reference groups, thereby precluding estimation of dose-related effects....


What's bolded is extremely important. There is not a single, reputable meta-analysis in a journal with an impact factor above 2 that standard levels of fluoride in drinking water is harmful. Now, if the water gets contaminated, that is a very different story.

Remember:

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…"
—Paracelsus

Apple seeds have cyanide in them, but if the apples tastes good, I eat the whole thing, core, seeds and all. I'm still fine.
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#9 axonopathy

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 09:39 PM

 

A recent cross-sectional study based on individual-level measure of exposures suggested that low levels of water fluoride (range, 0.24–2.84 mg/L) had significant negative associations with children’s intelligence (Ding et al. 2011). This study was not included in our meta-analysis, which focused only on studies with exposed and reference groups, thereby precluding estimation of dose-related effects....


What's bolded is extremely important. There is not a single, reputable meta-analysis in a journal with an impact factor above 2 that standard levels of fluoride in drinking water is harmful. Now, if the water gets contaminated, that is a very different story.

Remember:

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…"
—Paracelsus

Apple seeds have cyanide in them, but if the apples tastes good, I eat the whole thing, core, seeds and all. I'm still fine.

 

 

You make a really good point. It is certainly important to acknowledge that the dose makes the poison. I think the point of the list is just a  rough outline of things it might be good to avoid. A few neurotoxins on that list are virtually toxic at any dose, e.g., domoic acid, 6-OHDA and lead. 


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#10 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:14 PM

Lead is a good example of something that's more and more recently shown to not be safe for humans at any exposure level, ao I agree with you there. Also, check out this fascinating study linking lead to crime waves:

http://www.forbes.co...crime-epidemic/

It's till only a hypothesis, but IMO, quite a strong one, and explains many variables that other hypothesis leave behind.

What does 6-OHDA have to do with dopamenergic drugs? It seems to be its own synthetic compound.

Do I have any real chances of being exposed to Domoic acid aside from eating bad shellfish? Seems like it should not be on the list.

I like the idea of the list, I just think we can do a lot to improve it!

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 04 May 2015 - 10:16 PM.

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#11 Ark

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:50 PM

The Lancet Neurology, Volume 13, Issue 3, Pages 330 - 338, March 2014 <Previous Article
doi:10.1016/S1474-4422(13)70278-3Cite or Link Using DOI
Copyright © 2014 Elsevier Ltd All rights reserved.
Neurobehavioural effects of developmental toxicity

Dr Philippe Grandjean MD a b Corresponding AuthorEmail Address, Philip J Landrigan MD c
Summary

Neurodevelopmental disabilities, including autism, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, dyslexia, and other cognitive impairments, affect millions of children worldwide, and some diagnoses seem to be increasing in frequency. Industrial chemicals that injure the developing brain are among the known causes for this rise in prevalence. In 2006, we did a systematic review and identified five industrial chemicals as developmental neurotoxicants: lead, methylmercury, polychlorinated biphenyls, arsenic, and toluene. Since 2006, epidemiological studies have documented six additional developmental neurotoxicants—manganese, fluoride, chlorpyrifos, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and the polybrominated diphenyl ethers. We postulate that even more neurotoxicants remain undiscovered. To control the pandemic of developmental neurotoxicity, we propose a global prevention strategy. Untested chemicals should not be presumed to be safe to brain development, and chemicals in existing use and all new chemicals must therefore be tested for developmental neurotoxicity. To coordinate these efforts and to accelerate translation of science into prevention, we propose the urgent formation of a new international clearinghouse.
a Department of Environmental Medicine, University of Southern Denmark, Odense, Denmark
b Department of Environmental Health, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA, USA
c Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, New York, NY, USA
Corresponding Author Information Correspondence to: Dr Philippe Grandjean, Environmental and Occupational Medicine and Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, 401 Park Drive E-110, Boston, MA 02215, USA
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#12 Kalliste

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 07:40 AM

Something that worries me far more than any single substance is the cocktail effect of many different substances. I don't think Fluoride is bad when you use it in toothpaste and rinse, and then spit most of it out.

But it's possible that many chemicals act in synergy in both positive ways (why we eat lots of different vegetables) and in negative ways. Maybe fluoride can be dangerous even at lower levels if you also live in an area with lots of <insert name of toxic substance>.

It's going to be a real mess to figure this out, we probably will need to wait for the further automatization and miniaturization of biological equipment before this issue can be hammered out.


Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 13 May 2015 - 07:41 AM.

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#13 gamesguru

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:31 PM

Fluoridated toothpaste crew will never learn, they will forever label the learned as paranoid.

The natural stuff is cheaper, you can spit it out and immediately eat a delectable meal without tasting SLS and other BS, it's healthier, and believe it or not, it's more effective against plaque.

 

And watch out for dat dere domoic acid, it's everywhere. (not rly)


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#14 NeuroNootropic

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 09:38 AM

 

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.

fluoride dodestroys the penal gland and plays havoc on your body's molecular processes a little at a time.

 

 

The pineal gland? It produces melatonin and regulates the circadian rhythm. Ever since I was a child I've had a messed up sleep cycle. I would always stay up late till around 3 am and sleep 12 hours. Now, I'm staying up till 4 to 5 am and I can't seem to fix my sleep. I had severe dental fluororsis and my two incisor teeth got treated. Oh man, could this be the reason why I'm so messed up?

 

What are the symptoms of fluoride toxicity? Any way to cure this? If not, any treatment options for the symptoms?


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#15 axonopathy

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 05:43 AM

 

 

Fluoridated water? LOL, it looks like this thread will not be very evidence-based.

Mercury from seafood, however, is quite a real and serious issue.

fluoride dodestroys the penal gland and plays havoc on your body's molecular processes a little at a time.

 

 

The pineal gland? It produces melatonin and regulates the circadian rhythm. Ever since I was a child I've had a messed up sleep cycle. I would always stay up late till around 3 am and sleep 12 hours. Now, I'm staying up till 4 to 5 am and I can't seem to fix my sleep. I had severe dental fluororsis and my two incisor teeth got treated. Oh man, could this be the reason why I'm so messed up?

 

What are the symptoms of fluoride toxicity? Any way to cure this? If not, any treatment options for the symptoms?

 

 

It sounds like you might have delayed sleep phase syndrome.  One way to contend with possible fluoride toxicity is simply to use non-fluoridated toothpaste. I think the company Tom's make toothpaste that is fluoride-free. 


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#16 Kalliste

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 08:07 AM

No fluoride is a great thing if you never had a single cavity, maintain excellent oral hygiene and have a good diet.

If you don't have these things checked chances are you will end up with a ton of plastic in your mouth.

I have personally met several anti-fluoride types and I did not like the look on their face when they had the opportunity to choose between extraction-therapy or synthetic materials emdedded into their biological tissue.

Switching to non-fluoride dental products is probably not going to do you a lot of good.

At least start with buying a water-filter instead, if the problem is actually caused by lousy tap water. In many rural areas you can literally have dozens of pesiticides, metals content and god knows what else your farmer neighbor is spraying onto his field and I do suspect this combo is often the real health killer.

 

Fluoride is a simplistic explanation and as such is is very alluring for people who don't want to over-think and who want to have the warm fuzzy feeling of "doing something good" when they pick up their non fluoride toothpaste and then drink a glass of poison water, stress to work, eat some non organic vegetables...  :ph34r:

  th_663574849_fmx_122_392lo.jpg
   

 

Are there are good studies (not done with n=10 self selected fluoride haters, study done by person who previously lambasted fluoride) showing that the amount you get from swallowing some toothpaste + whatever sublingual administration gets done is actually seriously causing biomolecular havoc?


Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 15 May 2015 - 08:09 AM.

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#17 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 09:38 PM

The Fluoride Conspriacists

 

Can we turn this into a thread about real possible toxins, like Lead and methylmercury in seafood? 


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#18 axonopathy

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 10:39 PM

The Fluoride Conspriacists

 

Can we turn this into a thread about real possible toxins, like Lead and methylmercury in seafood? 

 

It's possible that the fluoride fears are overblown.

 

In connection with lead, the mechanism of neurotoxicity seems to be related to the fact that Pb is an NMDA antagonist. This is perplexing because the Alzheimer's drug memantine is also an NMDA antagonist yet is neuroprotective. Moreover, other potent NMDA antagonists like dextromethorphan aren't characterized as neurotoxins. For example, dextromethorphan is currently approved for the treatment of pseudobulbar affect.

 

Any clues as to why NMDA antagonism can be neurotoxic or neuroprotective, and also why NMDA activation can also be neurotoxic or neuroprotective? For example glycine is a positively allosteric modulator of NMDA and is procognitive, but quinolinic acid (which is an agonist at the NMDAR) is a potent endogenous neurotoxin.

 

I hope what I just wrote is vaguely coherent. 


Edited by rnapolymerase, 16 May 2015 - 10:40 PM.

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#19 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 10:46 PM

It seems to do that and so much more.


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#20 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 10:57 PM

Fun!

 

I'm trying to find an article I read a while back. A high school athlete, a baseball player, ate 3 cans of solid albacore for four years for protein. He ended up with severe and irreversible brain damage. :(

For the record, the kind of mercury you find in tuna is called methylmercury, which is the most toxic. A different form is ethylmercury, which is much less severe. It's what they used to use in vaccines until the anti-vaxx people showed up with their crazy. You got less mercury in a dose of a vaccine than 1 can of tuna.


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#21 gamesguru

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 01:15 AM

Eat a teaspoon of toothpaste a day for four years, see if you come out any better.


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#22 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 01:37 AM

Yes, just like rinsing your mouth out and igesting peroxide is the same thing.  :laugh:


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#23 gamesguru

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:11 PM

Some fluoride is absorbed sublingually.   Just like it's better to exercise moderation with tuna consumption, it's better to use fluoridated toothpaste moderately, say once or twice a week.  I haven't had a cavity in 10 years, and have not used fluoride more than twice a week for 6 years.  i think tooth decay has more to do with calcium in the diet, acidic or sugary foods, and oral flora (bacteria/plaque) than it does with a lack of fluoride.  Control your plaque and you shouldn't have issues.


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#24 Kalliste

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:28 PM

It has mostly with S.mutans to do. Knock Mutans and maybe some specie of Lactobacillus out of there (like several teams are trying to do) and you can chew sugar all day long and only worry about the eventual dental erosion without a single cavity.

 

Whats that thing about Tuna by the way?


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#25 gamesguru

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:44 PM

If you are chewing sugar all day, you're mouth is literally an incubation chamber.  Soon after your first brushing your dirty hand might re-inoculate your mouth with the mutant bacteria, and before lunch, you have acid-forming colonies all over your teeth.  So either brush with xylitol toothpaste 3-4 times daily to kill the biofilm, or go fructose only (no table sugar/corn syrup) to starve the biofilm.

 

Tuna has less mercury today than twenty years ago, but still I'm afraid the harms of the mercury outweigh the benefits of the omega-3s, it's a very dirty/impure source of omega-3; the less often you eat it, the better.  Sardines are a different story, that's where the domoic acid comes in.

So the argument goes with fluoridated toothpaste, even if you never accidentally swallow; the less the better, from a pure neurology perspective.


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#26 axonopathy

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 11:50 PM

If you are chewing sugar all day, you're mouth is literally an incubation chamber.  Soon after your first brushing your dirty hand might re-inoculate your mouth with the mutant bacteria, and before lunch, you have acid-forming colonies all over your teeth.  So either brush with xylitol toothpaste 3-4 times daily to kill the biofilm, or go fructose only (no table sugar/corn syrup) to starve the biofilm.

 

Tuna has less mercury today than twenty years ago, but still I'm afraid the harms of the mercury outweigh the benefits of the omega-3s, it's a very dirty/impure source of omega-3; the less often you eat it, the better.  Sardines are a different story, that's where the domoic acid comes in.

So the argument goes with fluoridated toothpaste, even if you never accidentally swallow; the less the better, from a pure neurology perspective.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what to think about eating wild salmon. Many studies suggest that salmon is beneficial for the brain (presumably because it contains DHA/EPA/astaxanthin), but I don't know how to reconcile this information with the methylmercury risks. 


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#27 gamesguru

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 01:37 AM

Flax oil.

 

And sardines, the chances of domoic acid + amnesic shellfish poisoning are slim-to-none.  Might as well take your life into a bunker for fear of meteoroids.

 

They don't give as much vitamin D as salmon, but more calcium & selenium

http://www.whfoods.c...dspice&dbid=147


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#28 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 01:23 PM

Some fluoride is absorbed sublingually[citation needed].   Just like it's better to exercise moderation with tuna consumption, it's better to use fluoridated toothpaste moderately, say once or twice a week[citation needed].  I haven't had a cavity in 10 years, and have not used fluoride more than twice a week for 6 years.  i think tooth decay has more to do with calcium in the diet[citation needed], acidic or sugary foods, and oral flora (bacteria/plaque) than it does with a lack of fluoride.  Control your plaque and you shouldn't have issues.


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#29 timar

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 02:08 PM

What tin foil hat wearing fluorophobics don't realize is that fluorides are ubiquitous minerals naturally present not only in drinking water at varying levels (so water fluoridation only "standardizes" the fluoride content to naturally occuring levels associated with dental health benefits) but also in some fluoride-accumulating plants like - hold your breath - camellia sinensis. The fluoride level in freshly brewed loose leaf black and green tea made with fluoride-free water is generally between 1 and 2 mg/L (putting it in the same range as fluoridated water), cheap bagged tea made from mature leaves can even leech up to 10 mg of fluoride into a liter of infusion. The evidence for health benefits of green tea, however, particularly concerning its neuroprotective effects, is of such cogency that it alone refutes all the fearmongering about fluoride in drinking water, salt or dental health products.


Edited by timar, 19 May 2015 - 02:10 PM.

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#30 Kalliste

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:05 PM

What tin foil hat wearing fluorophobics don't realize is that fluorides are ubiquitous minerals naturally present not only in drinking water at varying levels (so water fluoridation only "standardizes" the fluoride content to naturally occuring levels associated with dental health benefits) but also in some fluoride-accumulating plants like - hold your breath - camellia sinensis. The fluoride level in freshly brewed loose leaf black and green tea made with fluoride-free water is generally between 1 and 2 mg/L (putting it in the same range as fluoridated water), cheap bagged tea made from mature leaves can even leech up to 10 mg of fluoride into a liter of infusion. The evidence for health benefits of green tea, however, particularly concerning its neuroprotective effects, is of such cogency that it alone refutes all the fearmongering about fluoride in drinking water, salt or dental health products.

 

There has been some confusing results coming from tea-investigations though. I expect those results to be caused by content of Al, Pb and so on, especially from tea produced by our Asian Brown Cloud friends in China. I think Fluoride is very attractive to blame things on in general for some reason, I'm a lot more worried by mercury in fish and lead in tea.


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