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Low-Dose Chronic Phenibut and/or Baclofen

phenibut baclofen

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#1 AlmostEasy

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:28 PM


Before the avalanche of advice coming in to dissuade me from such an abomination of an idea let me just say that yes, I understand Phenibut. Yes I've used it with the 1-2 times weekly recommendation in the 1.0 - 1.5 gram mark. It worked very well for that and helped me in many situations without withdrawal symptoms or tolerance. Then I'd also like to say that YES, I've read the horror stories, they scare the shit out of me. I'd like to say that I've read the success stories too. Responsible users can dabble in this, it takes a lot of self diligence and many years of proving yourself capable, but if that's you, this is an incredible tool.

 

Now I've also read success stories of people using this chronically. The verdict is obviously not out on the efficacy of doing this, and this is why I'm here.

Why would I want to use low dose chronic phenibut? Well, I'm in a very particular situation. I've been suffering for 7+ years from an unknown cause. If you want the details, you'll find them Here and Here.

 

Every time I took Phenibut in a reasonable dose (never 2+ grams, that scared me a bit with how much inhibition was removed) I felt almost cured of my condition. I looked at the Russian literature that suggests 250 mg 3 times daily for 2-3 weeks at a time and decided I'd experiment with it and see how it felt. I feel like a normal human being for the first time in 7+ years (except obviously when I experimented with the weekly dose). I can socialize, I can think, I can feel, I can enjoy, I can contemplate, I can express, I can be. I'm fairly convinced I have PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome) and I believe my GABA-B receptors are totally shot. I binge drink on the weekends only (or did, sometimes still) and I had NO idea that alcohol could ever cause something so severe. I've seen friends drink 5x my amount for even longer and be completely fine (at least on the surface, liver, I don't know). I spent years looking at everything else possible. Ritalin is also huge to me as well. Everything is in the documents I shared.

 

I know certain diseases use Baclofen (Almost identical structure to Phenibut) as a lifetime treatment and it is well tolerated. I realize GABA-B healing actually takes years of complete absence of agonism but at the moment I just can't deal with it anymore. I need this, so bad. I can't keep going on like this. I'm seeing Dr's, neurologists, psychologists, and they don't have a fucking clue. I've had a full MRI to no avail. Again check my Google doc for all the info. I understand the pro's/con's. This is a very long thought out risk benefit analysis so please don't treat me like a child that cannot understand something on his own and through his own diligent research. I get it, the withdrawal can be hell on earth.

 

I would like to know if anyone else has experience with regimens such as this and how it turned out for them, even if it turned out poorly (maybe especially - remember, this is low dose. I'm currently taking 250 mg in the morning and night, so 500 mg daily). I know some people take it nightly for sleep without troubles, but I suppose I just want to compile some experiences all in one place to generate some discussion on this specific idea. Also for those that did cycle this, what was your schedule / regimen like? Did you ween, if so, by how much and for how long?

 

I want this to be as temporary as possible but I want to do it as informed as possible. I plan on doing P21 ASAP, whenever Ceretropic gets it in. I've heard Cerebrolysin can help significantly with PAWS.  I also have memantine on the way as I've heard it can help with this kind of thing as well, we'll see.  Hopefully it can replace this.

 

If you still feel the need to ream me out for even thinking this please do, but also understand where I'm coming from, I know this is a very personal unique decision but guidance would be appreciated.

 

Thanks guys



#2 The Brain

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:16 PM

Gotta agree with you on your unfortunate expectation of the avalanche of pseudo doctors that normally crawl out of the woodwork when someone mentions Phenibut. I swear that most of them haven't even touched the stuff but just regurgitate the ill informed and uneducated snippets of posts they see around the internet. I'm sure their motives are well meant but the hysteria and paranoia surrounding Phenibut sometimes ruins any real discussion with people at times even forcing THEIR rule of use of the substance. The recommendations are so wide and varied and the advice so obviously personal preference it tends to take the conversation off course.

Now my post could be seen as taking your thread off course but I'll come back and offer you my own long term sometimes sporadic, sometimes heavy daily use of Phenibut. I'm just rushed for time right now and needed to vent and recognise your expectations of admonishment first.

Edited by The Brain, 06 May 2015 - 11:21 PM.


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#3 AlmostEasy

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 03:03 AM

Alright awesome wasn't expecting a real response. Looking forward to it

#4 The Brain

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 05:48 AM

I came back..

My positive experiences are very similar to your own in how the effects are felt, I've done the once every few days thing and that was ok but the benefits are something I want all the time not just every other day, that's too taxing as an emotional and mental roller coaster, so have now adopted a daily use of around four to five grams Monday to Friday then the weekend off. Phenibut allows me to positively interact with people and look forward to being around them, without it, I'm not trusting of their motives and really view others in a negative light and it causes me to withdraw from being social or interested. I guess phenibut allows me to put the bad thoughts and worries aside and just focus on the moment and the possibilities it could bring.

I've been dosing this heavily on a five day cycle for about a year and a half now and haven't noticed any longterm differences in results or personality changes. I've occasionally overdone it and had some days where I've been drained and wiped out both mentally and emotionally but this normally corrects itself with a reduction in dose the next day. I have also had some days were I can get angry and very short tempered when minor frustrations compound and I react out of character and can't seem to be able to calm down and emotions are magnified beyond proportion to the experience.

My own personal problem with phenibut comes from the dose I need to take to feel the way I want brings some at times strong side effects, drowsy moments where I find myself physically nodding off only to awake startled. Once this even happened while driving and am very aware of the first signs of it now and recognise when it's about to happen so as to know that I need to be more vigilant in different circumstances. Also at times an itchiness in the hands after about ten hours after dosing which is an intense sensation in my fingers that will not go away with itching, that usually makes it worse and causes me to focus more on the itch. At times it sounds scary but it's like I forget to or just stop breathing momentarily, kind of like a switch being turned on then off quickly. As phenibut is a cns depressant I guess this means I'm pushing my doses too high sometimes.

I have taken time off phenibut for two weeks at the odd occasion and the only symptoms I felt were an actual void of internal chatter, the first time in my life when I can honestly say there were no intrusive thoughts and there was literally nothing going on in there that wasn't a conscious choice I made. I'm picking this might be what sucessful meditation may be like.

Other than that I find phenibut to be a substance that allows me to be the person I think I really am, minus the worries of day to day life and without social hangups.

#5 AlmostEasy

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:16 AM

Well that doesn't sound as rosy as I was hoping but useful none the less.

Do you have a long term game plan? Like what are you going to do in the future, withdrawal is going to happen at some point. Without phenibut I am dead inside and social interaction is soul destroying. With it, I'm just myself again.

I'm so conflicted. I want to be smart but I've spent 7 years looking for a real cure and nothing helps. This is it. Do I have PAWS? I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with me but I've wasted precious years of my existence malfunctioning.

I'm taking 500 mg to 750 mg a day and it's literally life changing. I'm contemplating baclofen as I know some people take it permanently with little issue but I have to order it in a shady manner.

I guess I just want someone to tell me its ok to dive in and do this according to my unique situation. People don't understand the extent to which human suffering is possible. I'm experiencing it fully. The looks, the freaked out looks. What's wrong with this guy on a deep level. I used to be so social and functional and now I have trouble remembering what I need to do every day. My life is forfeit. Hopefully that's not too intense but that's my every day existence and all I want is to get better, I'll do whatever it takes and this seems to be an unfortunate solution

#6 The Brain

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:56 AM

Yep I can relate to some of what you say, I'm not too worried about the future in terms of my use, what does worry me is the appearent horror stories that crop up on the net from people who come off and don't taper and cry about withdrawl even when it seems they are only experiencing minor discomfort. Phenibut seems to bring a strong reaction from most posters all wanting to demonise it for it's withdrawl issues but don't demonise the user for not tapering. I've already started stockpiling it in case it's removed from sale. Already in the last couple of months ebay withdrew it and advised some sellers it was a prescription only medication, this has since been reversed but nonetheless it is showing there is a growing negative awareness of it. I also am not able to access Baclofen without a prescription where I am and because of a minor indescretion with the custom dept here over a small amount of melatonin, also prescription here, my parcels are routinely checked and opened before being sent on.

I think it's the dopamine effects that are to praise for the positive experience I get from it but unfortunately most strong dopamengeric products here other than herbal compounds are also restricted and the herbal stuff is too weak to even notice.

#7 AlmostEasy

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 08:19 AM

I agree. There's a pattern with cold turkey. I don't know why. This is a good discussion. Have you tapered before? I mean I've been on anti depressants and tapered so slowly that I didn't even notice. I understand that very well. I just can't afford to be non functional. I honestly have read so many stories of people successfully using it long term though. You hit a peak and it remains effective for years. I don't think you can deny the truth of that. It's therapeutic long term. It's cheap.

I don't know why I struggle with this decision. I guess because it's undocumented territory. We're on our own ya know? If it was a standardized medical regimen I'd be like ok I can mimic that. I think I just want the cure too and I don't understand it. I wish I could just figure out the cure but maybe I need to accept life long treatment. I maybe think too long term.

Thanks for the replies though they're extremely helpful.

#8 The Brain

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 09:09 AM

I've tapered once, went well but only to start in another two weeks after I ran out because of a lost shipment. I've also gone cold turkey and it's hard to distinguish withdrawal from the normal feelings I have without phenibut. There are a lot if sucessful users out there but I think they just get in with it and can't be bothered trying to argue against the many pseudo Dr's that phenibut posts bring out. This forum seems ok with phenibut, however the Reddit nootropics board brings out the worst opponents of phenibut I've seen. Every thread started with the word in it carries an automatic "high risk" label attached to it.
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#9 AlmostEasy

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 01:12 AM

Alright, it's the night of my first day off Phenibut after 500 mg / day (250 morn, 250 night) and I've got to say it isn't that bad.  There were a few unenjoyable moments but honestly they were not much worse than my normal suffering, and I got a full 7 days of semi normal life enjoyment.  One downside is the same thing you are experiencing, my emotions are a little out of balance.  I get much more angry than I really should at some situations, but at least I can address the issue where as my anger would have no life at all and I would be left feeling unable to express myself at all, and situations that would take only a little pushback to correct would steamroll over me and I'd just have to live with it.  I didn't have the ability to respond.  It is something I need to consider though, the rage gets fairly high.

 

I have a close eye on R-Phenibut as it's supposed to be a much cleaner experience (as every vendor I'm aware of sells the racemic mixture) so hopefully that can help with the situation.  I'm probably going to order Baclofen soon here as well so there's a possibility that that could make the difference.  Several opportunities to explore here.

 

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to determine if I think there's additional withdrawal to experience, I want to know totally what I'm in for for a weeks worth of use, but if I feel I'm back to baseline I'll just start dosing again.  I've heard the worst can come at up to 40+ hours after cessation so I'll make the judgment call tomorrow.  I'll update with my results.



#10 AlmostEasy

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:17 AM

Working very well still but the anger issue is getting to be a little much.  It lingers for a really long time.  I have a very legitimate reason to be angry (roommate issue) but I'm almost afraid to talk to him because I don't want to freak out on him in an uncharacteristic fashion.

 

Is this similar to your issue with it?  I'm wondering if this maybe is just how people normally feel and I'm not used to it, my emotions were basically absent for about 5 years straight so this is new again and all the sudden I'm mega pissed about something, not sure where the Phenibut ends and the normalcy starts.



#11 The Brain

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:53 AM

Yeah. I find because I'm uninhibited with the phenibut then most emotions can become amplified and whereas I'm normally angry on the inside with someone or an event and will cover it up now I'm prone to just venting and saying just whatever is on my mind. Road rage is considerably more acute. My own pet hate in life is machines or devices that don't work or operate as they should when they should and these problems can send me into a seething rage. It feels good at the time to let rip but it's also embarrassing if someone else witnesses this scene.

Edited by The Brain, 12 May 2015 - 02:54 AM.


#12 AlmostEasy

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 05:04 AM

Right.  I was always fairly good with confrontation as long as I knew physical violence wasn't a possibility but this seems a bit different like you're experiencing as well.  I was enraged for like 3 hours straight, it was terrible lol.

 

I'm going to try out R-Phenibut and Baclofen as soon as I'm able to and if I notice that they mitigate this side effect in any way I'll be sure to inform you.  If I could weed this out I'd be fairly content with where I'm at.  There is some lingering mental fatigue at times but Semax has been very helpful with that, though expensive.



#13 123apk

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:58 PM

Yep I can relate to some of what you say, I'm not too worried about the future in terms of my use, what does worry me is the appearent horror stories that crop up on the net from people who come off and don't taper and cry about withdrawl even when it seems they are only experiencing minor discomfort. Phenibut seems to bring a strong reaction from most posters all wanting to demonise it for it's withdrawl issues but don't demonise the user for not tapering. I've already started stockpiling it in case it's removed from sale. Already in the last couple of months ebay withdrew it and advised some sellers it was a prescription only medication, this has since been reversed but nonetheless it is showing there is a growing negative awareness of it. I also am not able to access Baclofen without a prescription where I am and because of a minor indescretion with the custom dept here over a small amount of melatonin, also prescription here, my parcels are routinely checked and opened before being sent on.

I think it's the dopamine effects that are to praise for the positive experience I get from it but unfortunately most strong dopamengeric products here other than herbal compounds are also restricted and the herbal stuff is too weak to even notice.


Doesn't it go bad after a while though? Every time I buy it it says "use before x".

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#14 Junk Master

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 05:06 AM

Just curious, is R-Phenibut available from any domestic nootropic company yet?





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