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Noopept, phenylpiracetam, piracetam or other?

noopept phenylpiracetam piracetam

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#1 Smarticus

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:55 AM


Hi

 

I am experiencing a particularly intense time at the moment. I feel I've taken on too much. I am studying 2 courses at the same time and my work has gone very busy and I'm working long days. Some days I can be working 10 hours flat and then trying to study in the evening and I'm struggling to retain information and lacking mental clarity.

 

I am a fan of keeping things natural and my inner self is telling me the obvious simple approach would be to cut something out. I can't really cut my work out, I work for myself and I depend on my income. The only feasible solution is to drop one of my courses, which I don't want to do but may have to if things don't improve. I also meditate deeply and this helps short term, but sometimes it's catch 22 - the time I spend meditating I start to get anxious I'm not doing work or course work.

So, my question to anyone who has experience of nooptopics is: Do you think they would help in my situation, help mental clarity and memory? I'm sitting a couple exams for one of my courses in a month so I'll be grateful of any help. So far I've researched Noopept, Phenylpiracetam and Piracetam. Piracetam seems longest standing / most researched but I'm struggling finding a supplier in the UK. I've also read some good stuff about Phenylpiracetam. I thought rather than go back and forth I'd ask you lovely people here what are your recommendations based on:

1. My specific requirements (mental clarity and memory)
2. Reputable supply to the UK

3. Clean / minimal side effects

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and I look forward to your replies.

 



#2 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 09:54 AM

I can't find any good studies that elucidate the pharmacology of phenylpiracetam/phenotropil anywhere, so I have no opinion on that. I don't think Piracetam is going to help with your memory and clarity all that much if there is a huge anxiety compoenent that goes with it. If you do try it, make sure you take it with a choline source. If you have a lot of invasive thoughts, I honestly recommend a low dose of 5-HT2a antagonist. Unfortunately, I do not think there are any particularly potent natural ones. 5mg of Abilify (a potent 5HT2a antagonist, among other properties) would do you wonders, IMO. And I don't think you'd have to be on it long, it would be the training wheels to teach you how to keep out distracting thoughts, especially if you are meditating, and even more so since it will likely aid on centering your thoughts in the meditation. Abilify seems to have an extraordinarily wide potential of use: anxiolytic, antidepressant, anti-psychotic, mood stabilizers. In my personal opinion it's one of the most well designed drugs to come along recently.

And FYI, none of the racetams are natural. They are all drugs sold as supplements, just like Phenibut, Picamilon, and a ton of other drugs. The only difference between Abilify and Piracetam is that one requires a prescription; they are equally synthetic.

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#3 Astroid

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 04:55 AM

I recommend 750 mg1-2 times a day of Choline. Medical students take it to help them study. 



#4 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 07:19 AM

If your body already has an adequate amount of choline, I don't see how that will help. If you have a study, I'd love to read it. This only goes for standard Choline Bitartrate. Alpha-GPC and CDP Choline, on the other hand, can have profound cognitive effects in some.

To OP: If you don't think you'll go for the Abilify, let me know, and I'll come up with some other recommendations. I highly recommend it though.

#5 NG_F

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 11:28 PM

I can't find any good studies that elucidate the pharmacology of phenylpiracetam/phenotropil anywhere, so I have no opinion on that. I don't think Piracetam is going to help with your memory and clarity all that much if there is a huge anxiety compoenent that goes with it. If you do try it, make sure you take it with a choline source. If you have a lot of invasive thoughts, I honestly recommend a low dose of 5-HT2a antagonist. Unfortunately, I do not think there are any particularly potent natural ones. 5mg of Abilify (a potent 5HT2a antagonist, among other properties) would do you wonders, IMO. And I don't think you'd have to be on it long, it would be the training wheels to teach you how to keep out distracting thoughts, especially if you are meditating, and even more so since it will likely aid on centering your thoughts in the meditation. Abilify seems to have an extraordinarily wide potential of use: anxiolytic, antidepressant, anti-psychotic, mood stabilizers. In my personal opinion it's one of the most well designed drugs to come along recently.

And FYI, none of the racetams are natural. They are all drugs sold as supplements, just like Phenibut, Picamilon, and a ton of other drugs. The only difference between Abilify and Piracetam is that one requires a prescription; they are equally synthetic.

 

I'm starting on Abilify 2mgs and hope to get up to 5 if needed. I have Mild Aortic valve disease/stenosis with some mild regurgitation.

 It's my understanding that agonizing the 5HT2B receptor can wreak havoc with heart valves. I've read a few periodicals and to the best of my conclusions, Abilify seems to be an inverse agonist at this receptor, so that would work for me?

 I wanted to ask you as you seem to have good grasp of knowledge and some experience with different meds and Noots. I'll also be adding Memantine(Ebixa) at your recommended starting dose of 2mgs next week.  Thanks for any advice and info in advance.

 

My dysfunctional cerebral state is anxiety, OCD, Abulia and lack of motivation/fatigue. Prior history of small basal ganglia hemorrhage in the head of the Caudate nucleus, from hypertensive spikes in 2008.

 

http://www.nature.co...l/1300203a.html

 

 

Atypical antipsychotic drugs have revolutionized the treatment of schizophrenia and related disorders. The current clinically approved atypical antipsychotic drugs are characterized by having relatively low affinities for D2-dopamine receptors and relatively high affinities for 5-HT2Aserotonin receptors (5-HT, 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin)). Aripiprazole (OPC-14597) is a novel atypical antipsychotic drug that is reported to be a high-affinity D2-dopamine receptor partial agonist. We now provide a comprehensive pharmacological profile of aripiprazole at a large number of cloned G protein-coupled receptors, transporters, and ion channels. These data reveal a number of interesting and potentially important molecular targets for which aripiprazole has affinity. Aripiprazole has highest affinity for h5-HT2B-, hD2L-, and hD3-dopamine receptors, but also has significant affinity (5–30 nM) for several other 5-HT receptors (5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT7), as well as glyph.gif1A-adrenergic and hH1-histamine receptors. Aripiprazole has less affinity (30–200 nM) for other G protein-coupled receptors, including the 5-HT1D, 5-HT2Cglyph.gif1B-, glyph.gif2A-, glyph.gif2B-, glyph.gif2C-, glyph.gif1-, and glyph.gif2-adrenergic, and H3-histamine receptors. Functionally, aripiprazole is an inverse agonist at 5-HT2B receptors and displays partial agonist actions at 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, D3, and D4 receptors. Interestingly, we also discovered that the functional actions of aripiprazole at cloned human D2-dopamine receptors are cell-type selective, and that a range of actions (eg agonism, partial agonism, antagonism) at cloned D2-dopamine receptors are possible depending upon the cell type and function examined. This mixture of functional actions at D2-dopamine receptors is consistent with the hypothesis proposed byLawler et al (1999) that aripiprazole has 'functionally selective' actions. Taken together, our results support the hypothesis that the unique actions of aripiprazole in humans are likely a combination of 'functionally selective' activation of D2 (and possibly D3)-dopamine receptors, coupled with important interactions with selected other biogenic amine receptors—particularly 5-HT receptor subtypes (5-HT1A, 5-HT2A).



#6 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 04:09 AM

I looked into the heart thing for you. It would appear that antagonism and inverse agonism can actually help treat your problem, and may even be a future direct target for aortic valve diseases: 

 

Serotonin Receptors and Heart Valve Disease – it was meant 2B (I just had to put down the title. I bet the tried, and failed, to resist that pun).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3472096/

I feel that Abilify is one of the most brilliantly designed medications in a long time. That says a lot, as more often then not, it's just the same shit repatented and remarketed to us for exorbitant fees (Lexapro, Pristiq, Concerta, etc...) Let's talk about buprenorphine(BP) first. BP is a (quite) weak partial mu receptor (opioid/endorphin receptor) agonist. If you are not in anyone way addicted to opiates, it acts as an agonist and makes you a bit high. However, if you have become tolerant to opiates, it acts like an antagonist and can actually cause withdrawal. It's replaced, to a great deal, the use of methadone as maintenance therapy for opiate addiction, as once the body reaches some level of homeostasis post-opiate use, it gives a small opiate feeling without making the person high, to help them stay clean. As a weak partial agonist, it becomes an antagonist relative to stronger opiates like heroin, thus blocking their effects.

Abilify does this same thing at the D2 receptor. It's a weak partial agonist, and whether it displays agonistic or antagonist activity is highly dependant on what's happening in specific parts of the brain, dopamine levels, and receptor density. Theoretically, if your D2 activity is too low, it raises it, and if it's too high, it lowers it. That last part we don't know for sure, but nonetheless it's an incredible mechanism.

I've been on a lot of antipsychotics due to previous horrible insomnia. Until I found better solutions, I took 10mg of Olanzapine and 100-300mg of Seroquel just to get to sleep, both every night, and it only worked 50% of the time. It helped with anxiety as well, but that was not the main purpose. Of what I've taken, Abilify seemed to be the least numbing and the most agreeable with my chemistry. I feel that in general,, Abilify doesn't have the numbing effects of other medications like it, probably due to its role with D2 receptors I just mentioned.

Abilify also seems to be a relatively potent partial agonist (at least relative to its weak action at D2) at the 5HT1a receptor, stronger than even Buspar. This can help with anxiety quite a bit, and it's even one of the central mechanisms of the new atypical SSRIs: Viibryd and Brintellix. It can also aid in the release of oxytocin (this is how MDMA becomes the 'love drug'. The high amounts of 5HT hyperactivate most of your 5HT receptors, including 5HT1a, thereby releasing a metric shitton of oxytocin. It's not the serotonin itself that causes the feelings of love and connectedness), which can help with social anxiety.

Unlike other anti-psychotics, it doesn't seem to really block the H1 receptor, so it won't make you groggy or knock you out, which means you can take it any time of day.

Remember, they make doses in a single pill up to 30mg, and some take even more (though that's rare). 2 and 5mg are very little, and 10mg is moderate, so don't worry if you feel the need to go up a bit.

I'll get back to you about some OTC things that can be synergistic with all this as well. But you may want to try the Abilify first, since it only takes 1-2 weeks to reach full effect, and then the memantine, and then see where you are at. Try to change only one variable at a time, otherwise you can never really know what is causing what.

 

I hope this helps!


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 13 May 2015 - 04:17 AM.


#7 NG_F

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 07:43 AM

Thanks for the great article link and your info OSL !

 Do you have a medical or pharmacological background?  I think you recommended the usage of clonodine to help with sleep, as it blocks norepinephrine and activates orexin. I take (50mcg) .05 mgs at bedtime.

 What dosage of Abilify are you taking, if you're still on it ? Thanks for all your useful help   :cool:



#8 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 10:34 AM

The only relevant background is Cognitive Science, but we didn't really go into pharmacology all that much. It's mostly self-taught.

 

Clonidine lower orexin activity, not raises. But only if you are sleep-deprived. Orexin wakes you up. How's that dose going for you?

 

I'm no longer on Abilify.


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#9 NG_F

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:34 PM

I have a background in Medical lab technology and I have my certification in compounding pharmacy, but this was before my accident, I was active.

 Yes sorry, it was late. I know Modafainil and various analogues increase orexin activity lol. It's just an adjunct with my ace inhibitor- trandolapril. I could stand to go up a bit higher as I'm plagued with fragmented sleep and insomnia. Any other suggestions? I was considering Remeron , but was discouraged with the weight gain horror stories.

 

I'm also taking zoloft @ 50mgs and unfortunately Xanax @ 2mgs BID. I went to a detox facilty in 2008 which is where the botch up occurred and the hypertensive spike.

 Every time I take the zoloft, I get a tightness around my chest area and breathing problems. Do SSRI's activate the 5HT2B receptor by any chance? What's your opinion about Cymbalta ?

 

So are you just taking memantine @ 30mgs or are you adding any supps or noots?

 

Thanks again OSL  :-D



#10 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 11:13 AM

I have a background in Medical lab technology and I have my certification in compounding pharmacy, but this was before my accident, I was active.

 Yes sorry, it was late. I know Modafainil and various analogues increase orexin activity lol. It's just an adjunct with my ace inhibitor- trandolapril. I could stand to go up a bit higher as I'm plagued with fragmented sleep and insomnia. Any other suggestions? I was considering Remeron , but was discouraged with the weight gain horror stories.

 

I'm also taking zoloft @ 50mgs and unfortunately Xanax @ 2mgs BID. I went to a detox facilty in 2008 which is where the botch up occurred and the hypertensive spike.

 Every time I take the zoloft, I get a tightness around my chest area and breathing problems. Do SSRI's activate the 5HT2B receptor by any chance? What's your opinion about Cymbalta ?

 

So are you just taking memantine @ 30mgs or are you adding any supps or noots?

 

Thanks again OSL  :-D

Sorry I didn't get back to you. This post got lost.

I would recommend trying Clonidine for insomnia if everything else has failed. The lateral hypothalamus displays alpha 2 receptors in conditions of sleep deprivation, thus shutting down orexin activity when activated. Before Clonidine, I was on Zyprexa and Seroquel just to get to sleep. It only worked 50% of the time, and I slept for 12-14 hours. With clonidine, it worked 99% of the time and I slept for about 8 hours. After a couple years, I didn't even seem to need it anymore.

Zoloft at 50mg is a pretty low dose, the standard is 100mg (200mg for OCD). SSRIs do not specifically activate 5HT2B, other than the fact that increased serotonin activity can increase activity at that receptor. But the relationship between SRIs and 5HT receptor activity is extraordinarily complex and not something we understand very well at this point.

I would switch the Xanax to something like Klonopin. It hits you less hard and has a half-life of 18-50 hours. Xanax always seemed like the most addictive benzo to me.

IMO, Cymbalta should only be used for neuropathy and pain unless many other anti-depressants have failed. This is because stopping Cymbalta can be quite difficult: brain zaps, feelings of withdrawal, and twitches are all common. It's never given as a first-line treatment for depression for this reason, but it seems to help greatly for some people with neuropathy, fibromyalgia, and chronic pain.

I recommend one of the new, atypical SSRIs, vortioxetine or vilazodone. They both activate the 5HT1a receptor, which amongst other things, release oxytocin and reduce the common side effects from SSRIs.

Why are you on Trandolapril? Is it high blood pressure? There are so many better solutions for that then that particular drug. What do you mean modafinil being an adjunct to this?

I take the memantine with quite a few other things. It seems I have a significant problem with sensory gating, mine essentially being broken, and since figuring that out and tailoring what I am taking to it, I've gotten exponentially better.



#11 NG_F

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 11:48 AM

No worries  OSL   :-D It's always good to hear back  from you ie) worth the weight, as you never leave any stones unturned. Plus I dont feel neglected now after seeing you leaving a plethora of posts on the boards  in the last day or so lol..

  I must have not written propper. I meant the clonodine is an adjunct with my ace inhibitor, say if I'm feeling panic, or palp's, too much cofee etc...I'd love to hear the alternatives. Are we talking herbal and or lifestyle changes or another class of BP meds ?

 I'm still @ 5mgs/day of Ebixa(memantine ) and will go up to 10 tonight. I find it extremely helpful for OCD and slowing down the glutamatergic/norepi  stim from the locus coeruleus .It enables me to take Moda, Ritalin, coffee, Biotin etc without any spikes or palpitations or jitters. JUst a sustained energy which allows me to get some tasks completed finally ! Arghh  :wacko: Mind you I dont take all these stims at the same time.

  I find myself living in a phase of minor protracted withdrawal from the Xanax, as I refuse to go up any higher and have managed to come down slightly to 3mgs and one 0.5 mg tab of clonazepam. I dont want to do a full conversion, even though you're definitely correct, Xanax is very addictive and very difficult to come off of without switching over to an agent that's longer acting.ie) clonazepam or Diazepam. 

  I just seen some anectodal studies/reports how benzo's with a longer half life may contribute to early dementia/alzheimers  etc.. Of course cauasation vs. Old age and being prescribed these meds during later life has never been elucidated.

 

I was wondering if you believe that taking a racetam will mitigate the dumbing down via anti-cholinergic , muscaranic and nicotinic  down regulation before they up regulate again ? Once one is stable at 20 mgs/day is brain fog due to down regulation still a concern? I've seen a few reports here of users stopping due to the brain fog/memory issues. some question not sticking it out and giving a fair chance. This is why I chose to go with Ebixa brand name, so that there would be no external reaction that would cause me to think the memory loss was due to the memantine itself. I have slight memory problems , more of forgetfulness ( absent minded professor syndrome) lol..

 

I must say, I always look forward to reading your posts as you give many hope and quality detail and insight , so they can enjoy the best possible quality of life.

 

Thanks always for your efforts and concern  :)



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#12 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:50 PM

I'm still not sure why you take your ACE inhibitor. Is it as-need for spikes in blood pressure? Unfortunately, ACE inhibitors take time to build up as it prevents the conversion of angiotensin I to angiotensin II, something that doesn't change too drastically with a single dose. The Clonidine will change your BP immediately, however.

If you're doing it for anxiety and palpitations, I recommend Toprol XL. It lasts 24 hours, so you don't have to worry about dosing. It's a Beta-1 specific antagonist, which means it avoids a lot of the sides of beta blockers. You can't take this with clonidine, however. But it could replace both of them. Doses start at 50mg and go up to 200mg.

 

Can you show me the study(ies) linking benzo use with problems in old age?

If you want to lower your benzo need, a z-drug taken before bed, for a bit of time, might help. These include Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata. They work on the benzodiazapine site, but not as strongly.

I would not try to counteract the adjustment side-effect of memantine. This way you will know when you are ready to go up further. Why would the Ebixa brand name version make any difference at all?

Cannabidiol might also help you reduce your benzo use, as it can lower anxiety.

I think I covered everything. Did you have any more questions?







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