11 replies to this topic

[Dichotohmy]

I've posted before about a debilitating nexus of symptoms I experience every day that seems to be inexerably linked, if not caused by, accompanying poor quality, unrefreshing, and fragmented sleep.

 

In an effort to throw more things at a wall to see what sticks, I've been trying biphasic sleep this week. That is to say, after I awaken for the 2nd or 3rd time, after around 4-5 hours of sleep, I get up and go do something quiet and relaxing for an hour or so, then go back to sleep. However, when I go back to sleep, I have been experiencing some wierd stuff for hours at a time that is reminding me that these wierd phenomena are not new for me, and might explain part of what is wrong with my sleep.

 

It first starts with me slipping into stage-1 sleep after about 5-10 minutes, where my mind goes totally blank, and my body and breathing are both quite relaxed. However, instead of slipping into unconcious, stage 2 sleep, my "vision" fills with random imagery such as faces I don't recognize, fractal shapes, and strange maze-like landscapes that I view from above -- all with an artificial, blue-green hue to them. This is also accompanied with disembodied voices and random sentences filling my awareness that sort of surprise me into a slightly more aware state. This sounds like hypnagogic hallucinations so far, although a different sort than full-blown sleep-paralysis, which I have experienced before in the past, in that I don't feel any sort of dread, massive body weight, or presence in the room. Sometimes this is accompanied by myoclonic jerks, which are much more common when I'm sleep deprived, but I'd say that hypnagogic hallucinations are a nightly thing.

 

After a while, if I can't pass beyond this stage-1 sleep, I fall into a psuedo-dreaming state where I vaguely know I'm not asleep, and am slightly conscious of the fan in my room, but am dreaming none-the less. I almost feel like I'm lucid dreaming and can indeed, interact with my dreams in a way that's hard to describe. However, in this psuedo-dreaming state, the back of my head (I'm laying on my side) fills with a pressure of sorts, as though its inflating, I feel my eardrums fill with a sensation one would get when yawning, and after a few seconds of these head sensations, some impulse, similar to a violent involuntary shiver, with sensation of coldness shoots from the back of my head down my spine. This doesn't really shock me awake, though, and I continue in the psuedo dreaming state with the pressure in the back of my head eventually shooting back down my spine. The things I describe in this paragraph can go on for hours, or can fade away into a very restless REM-filled sleep where I am actually asleep and know I am asleep. My body also feels uncomfortably warm when these things are happening, even if the room is not, which is interesting because my body temperature is always 1-2-degrees below normal and otherwise, I always feel cold. I usually wake up with a headache and musculoskeletal pain that makes me joke to myself that I got hit by a truck while I was sleep walking. Often the experiences in this paragraph also happen to me when I'm in the process of falling back asleep without having gotten out of bed, but I transition into sleep much more quickly if I don't get out of bed.

 

Sometimes the hypnagogic hallucinations can be accompanied by the electrical sensations originating from my spine, along with spatial hallucinations similar to being pulled through the air, in such a way that isn't filled with any of the musular paralysis or dread of sleep paralysis. Sometimes, the disembodied voice hallucinations actually communicate coherent ideas to me and I respond with my inner voice, to which the disembodied voice continues the "conversation" for an indeterminate time that "feels" like quite 15-20 minutes. This is the kind of bizarre shit that is associated with OBE experiences and psychic phenomena, but could all of these wierd things I describe be a form of nocturnal epilepsy?

 

It's worth noting that this stuff happens when I'm trying to fall asleep and sleep isn't coming easy for me. All or some combination of these things happen to me every time I try to take a nap outside of my normal circadian rhythm. I say "try" to take a nap because I can't remember the last time I have ever actually fallen asleep in a nap - despite being exhuasted enough to want to. In the past, sleeping in an uncomfortable place, indigestion, or being on tramadol, amphetamines or caffeine and trying to sleep are sure ways to experience some or all of this strange phenomena. In particular, stimulants have a way of inducing the pseudo-dreaming state that is heavy on disembodied voice "conversations" and that state of sleep-borne altered consciousness that is free of the electrical impulses. In the past, alcohol withdrawal has made for hours of hypnic jerks, but I'm not on any medications, nor am I withdrawaling from anything.

 

When I had a polysomnogram, I had a spontaneous arousal index of 12 - which is also interesting in that I feel like there's some endogenous source that pulls me out of deeper stages of sleep and also shocks me awake, sometimes just seconds into REM sleep. I can recall this stuff going back to childhood. I used to think the electical discharge down my spine was some sort of wierd talent I had, or that my house(s) were always just haunted. Later on, I thought the psuedo-dreaming state was just restless REM sleep and that I was perhaps dreaming the nocturnal-seizure like things. However, like I said, it's been happening to me this week, and remarkably so last night where the seizure-like activity went on, over and over again, for what felt like over an hour. The experiences used to scare me, but now I just view them as a curious nuisance and am not troubled. Instead, I'm wondering if this could be a valuable clue as to what is happening in brain.

 

 

Edited by Dichotohmy, 21 May 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[jroseland]

[fairy]

Can you work to get rid of the pressure and the other unpleasant sensations?

 

with an artificial, blue-green hue to them

Have you red lights in your room?

[Dichotohmy]

Can you work to get rid of the pressure and the other unpleasant sensations?

 

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

Have you red lights in your room?

 

Yes, my alarm clock. However, I never notice any trace of it because I also always sleep with an eye mask on.

[Dichotohmy]

I'm revisiting trying to solve these particular sleep issues and remembered I made this thread. The hypnagogic issues I describe still remain. Unfortunately, I'm also expereincing a bizzare and protracted hypnopompic state, every night, after awakening from 2-3 hours of sleep.

 

The worst part about this is that it makes it absolutely impossible to take a nap. I haven't taken a nap in over 5 years. When I get through the hallucinations and I'm on the verge of slipping into stage-2 sleep, totally blank minded and serene, its like relaxed theta brain waves flood in and I'm suddenly more aware of my surroundings and awake with an extremely subdued start. Never is this experience related to an adrenaline rush, but I do feel I have heightened adrenaline 24/7/365. I don't stop breathing. The theta wave intrusions are coming from inside my brain. I call this "theta wave intrusion" and haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else before.

 

Worse yet, my sleep is starting to get even worse due to what I estimate is a nightly hypnopompic state. Sometime during or after my second sleep cycle, I slip into state where I'm vaguely aware of my surroundings, and experiencing dream loops and/or a single repetitive thought. The dream loops are very similar to the "Tetris effect" I would say and are often patterns that build and develope over the space of what feels like a minute, only to reset and begin again. Sometimes I have dream loops about, say, watching a car being reassembled; or perhaps a landscape fully coming into focus. I always feel like an observer in these dream loops and never a participant. The vantage point never seems to shift and I observe from a single perspective. Usually these dream loops are repetitive and oddly focused in that the subject matter doesn't change during the entirety of the experience. Sometimes the loops can go on for up to an hour before I snap out of it. Sometimes, over the kalaidescopic dream scape, I get a repeating thought like a name, or a math problem, but the thought never seems to reach a resolution and I always promptly forget shortly after I wake up. Never does this state evolve into sleep paralysis or waking nightmares, and it always feels oddly comfortable and never scary to be in the hypnopompia - likely why it can go on for a while. Another way I can describe this is that its strikingly similar to the dreams I can recall having when I had a fever. I haven't had a fever for over 8 years.

 

The only shred of a relation I can relate to what causes the protracted hypnagogic or hypnopompic states is gut disturbance. Experimenting with probiotics has left me in a hypnagogic limbo between stage 1 and stage 2 sleep literally all night in the past. Eating very spicy chili has done the same. Being in a fasting state  almost always seems to do it. In the past, binge drinking has also done it. Unfortunately, I have found nothing (specific dietary interventions, serotonergics, anti-histamines, anti-cholinergics, or gabaergics or any other drug) that works to help prevent any of these parasomnias besides complete and utter physical exhaustion.

[fairy]

I don't understand what you mean.

 

Some people escape from nightmares becoming lucid. Your problem seems a bit more complex though. You said: I almost feel like I'm lucid dreaming and can indeed, interact with my dreams in a way that's hard to describe. However, in this psuedo-dreaming state [...]. LDing can be shockingly real like. Have you tried involving all your senses to enter full lucidity and stop feeling your body? Rubbing your dream hands, trying to clear up things, tasting foods, etc...

[metabrain]

Sounds like a sleep disorder, I used to get the same symptoms before starting CPAP,  did your sleep study rule out Sleep Apneoa? I would also recommend getting an EKG and full blood panels to rule out another cause.

[bijao~]

What you describe is eerily similar to what I experience after years of taking various ADD / anxiety / depression medications. The only difference being that after years of "mental conditioning" (I guess you call it?), I can now control these symptoms. To elaborate, I am able to intentionally enter a dream like state without actually sleeping, and am entirely aware of the world around me.

 

Also, I experience the same electrical discharge sensation down my spine that you mention, and have done so for as long as I can remember. I find that the sensation is similar to that of getting the shivers, but not shivering. (if that makes sense.) 

 

Sorry I don't have any recommendations for you, my knowledge is quite limited aside from my own experiences. 

 

 

[LongingCity]

Interestingly enough, what you describe as "bi-phasic sleeping" is also a method in the "Astral Projection" community for having out-of-body experiences. Not that I believe in them, but let me expand on that.

 

Basically, one of the most effective rookie methods that people who are trying to AP for the first time, is to go to sleep at 11 p.m, sleep until 4 a.m (or 6 a.m., the method has a few variations) then be awake for an hour, and go back to sleep. This is considered one of the most effective techniques for not only APing, but also Lucid Dreaming in the community.

People who do the method often describe sensations of "floating," "electricity running down my spine," "being spoken to by disembodied voices," and "strange visions." Obviously, there is is all under a veil of esotericism, whilst here you've described the very same things as the AP community, except in a scientific manner.

 

My advice? The state you're achieving is not unusual for what you're doing. In fact, it seems to be common to all, or the vast majority of humans. There is no scientific research on this, so I can not yet come up with an explenation.

 

For a few years now, I've been trying to privately study the effects of the 4 a.m. method (what you call bi-phasic sleeping, also known as the 6 a.m. method), and have wanted to figure out where the effects come from, and what causes them. Unfortunately, despite the fact I have noted many of my experiences, I have no access to a brain scanner, so I can't say what happens for sure when someone attempts this technique.

[Dichotohmy]

Sounds like a sleep disorder, I used to get the same symptoms before starting CPAP,  did your sleep study rule out Sleep Apneoa? I would also recommend getting an EKG and full blood panels to rule out another cause.

 

Apnea is ruled out and even though the polysomnogram was nowhere close to representative of my usual sleep, I don't suspect CSA or OSA either. What I do suspect is UARS due to trouble nose breathing after some time laying down. My hypopnea index was reported around 9.0, but this lab isn't equipped to check for UARS even though they said they were - IE no esophageal pressure monitor or RERA statistics.

 

What you describe is eerily similar to what I experience after years of taking various ADD / anxiety / depression medications. The only difference being that after years of "mental conditioning" (I guess you call it?), I can now control these symptoms. To elaborate, I am able to intentionally enter a dream like state without actually sleeping, and am entirely aware of the world around me.

 

I've had parasomnias like this since childhood, well before psychiatric meds. I don't take any psychiatric meds these days and haven't for the last six months. Methylphenidate and amphetamines both have a way of inducing a parasomnia-heavy sleep if I go to bed still medicated.

 

Interestingly enough, what you describe as "bi-phasic sleeping" is also a method in the "Astral Projection" community for having out-of-body experiences. Not that I believe in them, but let me expand on that.

 

I like this explanation even though its somehow unsatisfying. I can't believe how many websites there are devoted to acheiving a brain state that I can't help but experience and want to avoid. See: the scores of pages on how to "dream like Edison."

 

There is no scientific research on this, so I can not yet come up with an explenation.

 

I agree, I've curiously searched and found extremely little beyond a page of anecdotal experiences at medhelp - and those trash medical issue sites never have anything but people replying "me too" instead of anyone posting an explanation.

 

 

As I said, I highly suspect this problem is related to gut disturbance for me, as we know the vagus nerve can cause some weird feedback in the brain and I definitely notice the problem gets much worse when my gut is revolting while I sleep.

[metabrain]

 

Sounds like a sleep disorder, I used to get the same symptoms before starting CPAP,  did your sleep study rule out Sleep Apneoa? I would also recommend getting an EKG and full blood panels to rule out another cause.

 

Apnea is ruled out and even though the polysomnogram was nowhere close to representative of my usual sleep, I don't suspect CSA or OSA either. What I do suspect is UARS due to trouble nose breathing after some time laying down. My hypopnea index was reported around 9.0, but this lab isn't equipped to check for UARS even though they said they were - IE no esophageal pressure monitor or RERA statistics.

 

If your hypopnea index was above 5 than that is indicative of sleep apnoea, did they specifically say that you did not have sleep apnoea? I would retake the sleep study in a fully equipped lab and also if the option is available to you try an auto set CPAP until you can get to the sleep lab again, give it a try and see how you feel.

[resveratrol_guy]

I've had these "phantom thought" or "brain chatter" experiences myself, and there's near perfect correlation in my case with the use of antibiotics, especially early in the course when they kill most of your gut bacteria, releasing bacterial endotoxins into the plasma, some of which presumably cross the BBB. It's happened with a wide variety of antibiotics, so this is not a straightforward drug response for me. I just happen to be on some at the moment, and the effect has been the same as before.

 

Now in your case, it's clear from your history that this is not caused by antibiotics, although it's possible that a similar gut bacteria route is involved. So here are some suggested approaches, which obviously require some research on your part before merely taking my advice:

 

1. Slam your gut bacteria population with antibiotics, causing a reset. Don't eat any rotten or cultured foods. A few days after the full antibiotic course is done, repopulate with high quality probiotic sources, e.g. organic unsweetened Greek yoghurt. First off, see if the mass dieoff causes any changes in the phenomena, then see what you notice during the rebuild phase. I recommend mixing the yoghurt with chewed up raw vegetable fiber, so you evolve a gut bacteria population which learns to produce a lot of butyric acid but which is not particularly addicated to sugar. Remember that these guys have astonishing collective intelligence; they can learn, in due course, to pull your hormone levers to consume what they crave as opposed to what's good for you. So better to make them addicted to rotting veggies.

 

2. Try honokiol, for example the 90% standardized stuff from Swanson. Don't use a higher purity than 90%, because in my personal experience, it's the magnolol contamination that provides most of the sleep assist benefit. There's a lot that honokiol will do, for its part, so please read the aforelinked thread. But the essence of my reasoning, subjectively validated by personal experience, is that this supplement will shut down the phantom thoughts within digestive time, then push you further into high quality sleep. GABA is heavily involved, but not in the same manner as with benzodiazepine drugs, which may be prodementia and should be avoided. You might also experiment with magnolia bark extract which is less than 90% purity, sold by Swanson and others.