1 reply to this topic

[twistednerve]

It's widely perceived that anticholinergics will reduce cognitive function during their use.

 

However, reduction in acethylcholine can improve mood and depression, including intrusive thoughts and ruminations, making a person able to think clearer and have better cognition than without anticholinergics. But it is believed chronic use of anticholinergics will cause dementia, so taking them for a long time might not be a good idea, and require cycling.

 

My problem is: I have experienced both aforementioned increase in cognition during use of anticholinergics, as I have experienced an increase from upping acethylcholine.

But eventually, while taking choline supplements, thoughts are invaded by anxiety/mood related issues and cognition takes a dive from it.

 

But, I stumbled upon this:

 

"Anticholinergics, over time, improve cognition. When one ingests anticholinergics frequently the body increases the number of ACh receptors and increases production of ACh to compensate. It's a facet of neural plasticity.
Case in point: Memantine.
'It can be noted that memantine is an antagonist at alpha-7 nAChR, which may contribute to initial worsening of cognitive function during early memantine treatment. Alpha-7 nAChR upregulates quickly in response to antagonism, which could explain the cognitive-enhancing effects of chronic memantine treatment.'"

 

 

Can anyone link studies or anectodal/personal experiences with this? Can you really achieve a better cognition with long term use of anticholinergics?

 

Because the way I see it, if you find a correct cycling schedule, it may be possible to reduce brain acethylcholine to improve mood, and then stay off meds and enjoy naturally increased acethylcholine from the lack of medication. Then, this should stabilize to whatever is your baselevel with time, I suppose. BUt this is not always the case, as chronic use of certain substances have made positive permanent changes on me.

 

Well, what do you think? I definetely get almost instant mood issues with choline sources, and noticed anticholinergics (be them muscle relaxants, antidepressants or antipsychotics) usually result in a brighter mood. But I would not like to use them and get dementia, and I would stil like to find some window where I could enjoy increased acethylcholine levels.

[xxxxxxxx]

Ah, this "reverse-withdrawal" approach has come up many times in noot forums. I'm sad to report I've seen it debunked many times.

 

Basically, your acetylcholine (ACh) activity won't upregulate past your normal baseline; you can have a gazillion new ACh receptors, but not enough excess endogenous ACh production to activate them. You need a direct agonist or something to somehow increase your endogenous production of ACh to go beyond baseline.

People feel better on memantine because of its main anti-NDMA action which upregulates neurotrophins like BDNF. The anti-ACh activity is a nasty side-effect which simply goes away with time, allowing you to feel the effects of the glutamatergic/neurotrophic stuff. 

 

Also, memantine is more of a "fixer of damaged brains" rather than enhancer of normal ones. People who use it usually have a reason to think their brains are damaged to below their natural baseline (ex. amphetamine tolerance, weird drug use, depression). 

 

However, people who mess around with cholinergics (increase ACh) often end up depressed, as it has a funny relationship with dopamine and sleep architecture. Depression is bad for thinking straight. Can confirm (although I personally never messed around with any substance)

Edited by MiaouMixe, 31 October 2015 - 10:39 PM.