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Nerve Regeneration


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#1 ibond1

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 04:49 AM


Dear Friends,

This forum is one of the most inspiring and respectable forums that I enjoy reading. My last post was almost 2 years ago. During this time I was first diagnosed with Scheuermann's (deformity in the spine) and degenerative disc disease. The reason took me to the hospital was immobilizing back pain which was developed following a leg workout routine. Recovery took 3-4 months. I stopped my martial arts (kick-boxing), and continued jogging and a tailored weightlifting. However, the problem came back while I was pulling the old carpeting out of the house. This time I ended up a slipped and fragmented lumbar (L1-L2) disc compressing to the cauda equina, which is formed by nerve roots caudal to the level of spinal cord termination. I had to go surgery due to Cauda Equida Syndrome (low back pain, unilateral sciatica, saddle sensory disturbances, bladder and bowel dysfunction, and variable lower extremity motor and sensory loss). [CES information: http://answers.googl...dview?id=391912]

The surgery was consisting of laminectomy, facetectomy and discectomy. It has been little over 3 weeks and I have a significant improvement. However, due to anesthetic feeling my bowel and bladder functions are not 100%. According to my surgeon, following the acute phase healing due to decompression, the recovery will take time, and will be depend on the nerve regeneration power of the Mother Nature. I want to help my Mother Nature. I have read variety of trials; electric stimulation, magnetic stimulation, laser exposure, etc. It seems like the most important factor for nerve regeneration is the augmentation of NGF. I am planning to follow the below outlined supplement plan. Could anyone advise me if I am planning to do anything wrong. Additionally, I am open to any recommendation. How can we induce the natural nerve regeneration?

Deprenyl 2.5 mg x 2/day (I used to use Cyprenil 2 mg/day)
Hydergine (just ordered and planning to use 4.5 mg/day at breakfast)
Piracetam (1600 mg with breakfast + 800 mg at dinner) (Sherwyns)
Multivitamin+minaral (LEF 2x/day)
Mg (500mg/before bed) (Swanson)
Fish oil (180 mg EPA + 120 mg DHA) x 6/day (Puritan)
Borage oil (240 mg GLA + 380 mg LA) x 3/day (Puritan)
[ALCAR (1.4g) + Arginocarn (750mg)] x2/day on empty stomach (Beyond A Century)
[ALA (300mg) + Biotin (300mg)] x 2/day (Beyond A Century)
[Idebenone (100mg) + CoQ10 (100mg)] x2/day (Beyond A Century)
DMAE 350mg (supplying 130mg) (Beyond A Century) x 2/day
B12 (methylcobalamine) (Sublingual) x 5 mg x2/day (Wonder Labs)
Inosine (Sublingual) 600 mg x 4-6/day
VitD (400-800 IU/day) (Puritan)
N-acetyl cysteine (Beyond A Century) 700 mg x2/day
Taurine (Beyond A Century) 1g x 2/day
Bacopa ext. 100 mg (Beyond A Century) x2/day
Curcumin ext. 300 mg (Beyond A Century) x 2/day
Silymarin ext. (Beyond A Century) 200 mg x 2/day
Ashawaganda ext. (Beyond A Century) 280 mg x 2/day
Cranberry concentrate 2x/day
Creatine malate (5g) + Whey Protein 20 g (following a w.o. which is only walking on a treadmill lately)
Cozaar 25 mg/day (My HBP med.)
Policosanol 20 mg/day (I have type IIa HC) (Swanson)
Arginine and Citrulline (Planning to add on ALCAR+Arginocarn and/or before bed and w.o.; Is there any NO neurotoxicity ???)

#2 outsider

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 06:01 AM

I heard that when someone rubed pregnenolone after spine injuries it greatly enhanced nerve restoration.

Link

"Conversely, application of 100 µg of either progesterone or its precursor pregnenolone close to lesioned nerves significantly enhances the thickness of the myelin sheaths. An important role of progesterone in myelination could also be demonstrated in co-cultures of sensory neurons and Schwann cells, where the myelination of axons was increased by a low concentration of the steroid (20 nM).

Progesterone may promote the formation of new myelin sheaths by autocrine actions: Schwann cells not only synthesize progesterone, they also express an intracellular receptor for the steroid as demonstrated by RT-PCR, immunocytochemistry and binding studies using the selective ligand [3H]ORG 2058. The presence of progesterone receptor mRNA was also demonstrated in vivo in both intact and regenerating sciatic nerves of adult male rats."

Link

"Spinal cord injuries may be minimized with pregnenolone according to a number of rat studies. Dr. Eugene Roberts would like to see a pregnenolone cream placed in first aid kits for use on the spine following earthquakes or accidents. 4"

And maybe Forskolin might help

Link

"Like primary rat Schwann cells, SpL201 cells upregulate Oct-6 and myelin gene expression in response to forskolin treatment. "

"The Journal of Cell Biology, Vol 102, 821-829, Copyright © 1986 by The Rockefeller University Press

ARTICLES
The role of cAMP in nerve growth factor-promoted neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells
C Richter-Landsberg and B Jastorff
Nerve growth factor (NGF)-mediated neurite outgrowth in rat pheochromocytoma PC12 cells has been described to be synergistically potentiated by the simultaneous addition of dibutyryl cAMP. To elucidate further the role of cAMP in NGF-induced neurite outgrowth we have used the adenylate cyclase activator forskolin, cAMP, and a set of chemically modified cAMP analogues, including the adenosine cyclic 3',5'-phosphorothioates (cAMPS) (Rp)-cAMPS and (Sp)-cAMPS. These diastereomers have differential effects on the activation of cAMP- dependent protein kinases, i.e., (Sp)-cAMPS behaves as a cAMP agonist and (Rp)-cAMPS behaves as a cAMP antagonist. Our data show that the establishment of a neuritic network, as observed from PC12 cells treated with NGF alone, could not be induced by either forskolin, cAMP, or cAMP analogues alone. The presence of NGF in combination with forskolin or cAMP or its agonistic analogues potentiated the initiation of neurite outgrowth from PC12 cells. The (Sp)-cAMPS-induced stimulation of NGF-mediated process formation was successfully blocked by the (Rp)-cAMPS diastereomer. On the other hand, NGF-stimulated neurite outgrowth was not inhibited by the presence of the cAMP antagonist (Rp)-cAMPS. We conclude that the morphological differentiation of PC12 cells stimulated by NGF does not require cAMP as a second messenger. The constant increase of intracellular cAMP, caused by either forskolin or cAMP and the analogues, in combination with NGF, not only rapidly stimulated early neurite outgrowth but also exerted a maintaining effect on the neuronal network established by NGF. "

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#3 liorrh

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 06:29 AM

very good info.

more things
most important
behavioral strategy - use will help with regeneration. lots of it. consider taking some form of dopaminergic to go through it. also, anyunderlying depression or mood disorder will impede recovery

supps:
acetyl-l-carnitine - . numerous studies have demonstrated that it significantly enhances peripheral nerve generation (by 2000% in one study).
IGF-1 and nerve growth synergisticly enhance neurite outgrowth in sensory neurons. IGF-1 isn't hard to obtain, but NGF is a different story.
massage improves blood flow to the are.
reducing cortisol is important as cortisol supresses cytokines which mediate growth factors.

The drug Topiramate (Topamax) has been shown in some cases to increase peroneal nerve amplitute and dendrite length. Topiramate possibly may aid in the re-growth of intraepidermal nerve fibers. This effect has been noticed in diabetics suffering from neuropathy after use of low-dose topiramate for only 2 months.

there is also infrared light therpay approved for neuropathy by the FDA, you could look into that.

#4 scottl

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 09:16 AM

There is a thread on nereveregeneration over at avant labs which is worth reading:

http://forum.avantla...ve regeneration

acetyl-l-carnitine and...not sure but ? newer one...??acetyl carnitine arginate....may be relevant.

#5 xanadu

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 04:49 PM

If you are planning to use all those things at once for the first time, you may be in for a surprise. My results may not be typical but I found that piracetam tends to keep me awake. I was able to overcome it by using things like theanine and gaba. I also did not use much, about 1.25gm per day. I see you plan to use 100mg of idebenone per day. May be fine for you but I just had to quit taking it myself. I started on 50mg per day and found it way too stimulating. I started taking bacopa and more theanine to counteract the problem but my sleep went to crap and I'm done with it for now.

I start one thing at a time so I know what's doing what. I'd recommend you do the same. I don't know much about some of the other things you are taking. I believe I heard alcar is stimulating but I'm not sure. I have some, just haven't tried it yet. Slowly trying things out is working for me. If I had started out with a big stack like the one you are talking about, I would have to stop the whole course when I couldn't sleep or had other problems. I would have no idea what was causing what. When you try one thing at a time, you know what's doing it and can reduce the dose or do something else. Other side effects I've heard about are headache, stiff neck, nausea and a few other symptoms.

#6 Pablo M

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 09:03 PM

Here is a link to an AOR article that may be of some use to you. Click on "methylcobalamin."
AOR Advances magazine

#7 eternaltraveler

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Posted 13 September 2005 - 11:53 PM

My only specific recomendation that I can think of off the top of my head would be hydergine, and you seem to have picked up on that already. It may work along the same lines as NGF in terms of stimulating neuronal growth.

#8 liorrh

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Posted 14 September 2005 - 11:17 PM

My only specific recomendation that I can think of off the top of my head would be hydergine, and you seem to have picked up on that already. It may work along the same lines as NGF in terms of stimulating neuronal growth.


interesting. any reccomended reading on the subject?

#9 ibond1

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 02:46 AM

Hi Friends,

I would like to thank you all for the information input.

Outsider- It seems like pregnenolone is definitely a good supplement to add in this regiment. However, I found out that it has side effects if there is an irregular heart beat conditions. I have 1st degree AV-1 and RBB block. Thus I decided to be cautious at this moment.

Liorrh- Thank you very much. Before trying Topiramate, first, I decided to use Long R3 IGF-1 (more effective form of IGF; Long R3 IGF-1 is an 83 amino acid analog of IGF-1 comprising the complete human IGF-1 sequence with the substitution of an Arg® for the Glu(E) at position three, hence R3, and a 13 amino acid extension peptide at the N terminus. This analog of IGF-1 has been produced with the purpose of increasing the biological activity of the IGF peptide and it has a much longer half-life).
However, my problem is finding a receptor grade product with a reasonable price. Most of the marketed products are media grade which has lower efficacy and has more % antibody response by the host. Please send me an e-mail if you know a source that sells the receptor grade.

Also, I received my Hydergine from IAS last week. I found out that there is a bradicardia side effect. I started with half tab before breakfast. I am planning to increase to 1 tab (4.5 mg).

Information about CES and related to:
http://answers.googl...dview?id=391912
http://www.caudaequi...definition.html
http://www.spine-hea...august2003.html
http://www.oldcity.o...k/cauda_equina/
http://www.lowbackpain.com/ http://www.lef.org/L...px?CmsID=113139
http://www.alternati...a/Sciatica.html
http://www.maturespine.com
http://www.myBackSolution.com
http://www.swarminteractive.com/
http://www.spineonline.com/index.html
www.accucarepainmedicine.com
http://www.incontact.org
The Permanente Journal/ Fall 2003/ Volume 7 No. 4 (pg. 1-5)
Journal of Stroke and Cerebrovascular Diseases, Vol. 9, No. 6, Suppl 2 (November-December), 2000: pp 24-31

Scottl- Thank you for the forum address. It was very informative. Acetylcarnitine and Arginocarnitine are in my regiment.

Xanadu- Thank you for the warning for Piracetam. I was awake until 3-4 am almost every day after starting the regiment that I post. Now I take my last dose of Pira around 4 PM. And I can sleep around midnight.

Dantecubit- Thank you very much for the B12 information. I amam using 10 mg Methycobalamin sublinguals now.

#10 LifeMirage

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 03:32 AM

Dear Friends,

This forum is one of the most inspiring and respectable forums that I enjoy reading. My last post was almost 2 years ago. During this time I was first diagnosed with Scheuermann's (deformity in the spine) and degenerative disc disease. The reason took me to the hospital was immobilizing back pain which was developed following a leg workout routine. Recovery took 3-4 months. I stopped my martial arts (kick-boxing), and continued jogging and a tailored weightlifting. However, the problem came back while I was pulling the old carpeting out of the house. This time I ended up a slipped and fragmented lumbar (L1-L2) disc compressing to the cauda equina, which is formed by nerve roots caudal to the level of spinal cord termination. I had to go surgery due to Cauda Equida Syndrome (low back pain, unilateral sciatica, saddle sensory disturbances, bladder and bowel dysfunction, and variable lower extremity motor and sensory loss). [CES information: http://answers.googl...dview?id=391912]

The surgery was consisting of laminectomy, facetectomy and discectomy. It has been little over 3 weeks and I have a significant improvement. However, due to anesthetic feeling my bowel and bladder functions are not 100%. According to my surgeon, following the acute phase healing due to decompression, the recovery will take time, and will be depend on the nerve regeneration power of the Mother Nature. I want to help my Mother Nature. I have read variety of trials; electric stimulation, magnetic stimulation, laser exposure, etc. It seems like the most important factor for nerve regeneration is the augmentation of NGF. I am planning to follow the below outlined supplement plan. Could anyone advise me if I am planning to do anything wrong. Additionally, I am open to any recommendation. How can we induce the natural nerve regeneration?

Dantecubit- Thank you very much for the B12 information. I amam using 10 mg Methycobalamin sublinguals now.


There is some research showing Lion's Mane may be of some benefit. I would recommend having your doctor contact a compounding pharmacy for methylcobalamin injections (or using 60 mg sublingual daily Kirkman Labs makes a cost effective powder form or AOR's tablets)...I have had good success with those afflicted with Bell's Palsy.

Also I would drop the

[ALA (300mg) + Biotin (300mg)] x 2/day (Beyond A Century)

R-Lipoic acid is far more effective for nerve repair….or you may consider a blend of R-Lipoic acid & R-DiHydroLipoic acid.

#11 krillin

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:42 PM

there is also infrared light therpay approved for neuropathy by the FDA, you could look into that.


Here's something neat I read about in Business Week.

Stroke. 2007 Jun;38(6):1843-9.
Infrared laser therapy for ischemic stroke: a new treatment strategy: results of the NeuroThera Effectiveness and Safety Trial-1 (NEST-1).
Lampl Y, Zivin JA, Fisher M, Lew R, Welin L, Dahlof B, Borenstein P, Andersson B, Perez J, Caparo C, Ilic S, Oron U.
Wolfson Medical Center, Department of Neurology, Holon, Israel.

BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: The NeuroThera Effectiveness and Safety Trial-1 (NEST-1) study evaluated the safety and preliminary effectiveness of the NeuroThera Laser System in the ability to improve 90-day outcomes in ischemic stroke patients treated within 24 hours from stroke onset. The NeuroThera Laser System therapeutic approach involves use of infrared laser technology and has shown significant and sustained beneficial effects in animal models of ischemic stroke. METHODS: This was a prospective, intention-to-treat, multicenter, international, double-blind, trial involving 120 ischemic stroke patients treated, randomized 2:1 ratio, with 79 patients in the active treatment group and 41 in the sham (placebo) control group. Only patients with baseline stroke severity measured by National Institutes of Health Stroke Scale (NIHSS) scores of 7 to 22 were included. Patients who received tissue plasminogen activator were excluded. Outcome measures were the patients' scores on the NIHSS, modified Rankin Scale (mRS), Barthel Index, and Glasgow Outcome Scale at 90 days after treatment. The primary outcome measure, prospectively identified, was successful treatment, documented by NIHSS. This was defined as a complete recovery at day 90 (NIHSS 0 to 1), or a decrease in NIHSS score of at least 9 points (day 90 versus baseline), and was tested as a binary measure (bNIH). Secondary outcome measures included mRS, Barthel Index, and Glasgow Outcome Scale. Primary statistical analyses were performed with the Cochran-Mantel-Haenszel rank test, stratified by baseline NIHSS score or by time to treatment for the bNIH and mRS. Logistic regression analyses were conducted to confirm the results. RESULTS: Mean time to treatment was >16 hours (median time to treatment 18 hours for active and 17 hours for control). Time to treatment ranged from 2 to 24 hours. More patients (70%) in the active treatment group had successful outcomes than did controls (51%), as measured prospectively on the bNIH (P=0.035 stratified by severity and time to treatment; P=0.048 stratified only by severity). Similarly, more patients (59%) had successful outcomes than did controls (44%) as measured at 90 days as a binary mRS score of 0 to 2 (P=0.034 stratified by severity and time to treatment; P=0.043 stratified only by severity). Also, more patients in the active treatment group had successful outcomes than controls as measured by the change in mean NIHSS score from baseline to 90 days (P=0.021 stratified by time to treatment) and the full mRS ("shift in Rankin") score (P=0.020 stratified by severity and time to treatment; P=0.026 stratified only by severity). The prevalence odds ratio for bNIH was 1.40 (95% CI, 1.01 to 1.93) and for binary mRS was 1.38 (95% CI, 1.03 to 1.83), controlling for baseline severity. Similar results held for the Barthel Index and Glasgow Outcome Scale. Mortality rates and serious adverse events (SAEs) did not differ significantly (8.9% and 25.3% for active 9.8% and 36.6% for control, respectively, for mortality and SAEs). CONCLUSIONS: The NEST-1 study indicates that infrared laser therapy has shown initial safety and effectiveness for the treatment of ischemic stroke in humans when initiated within 24 hours of stroke onset. A larger confirmatory trial to demonstrate safety and effectiveness is warranted.

PMID: 17463313

#12 ortcloud

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 11:21 PM

Looks like your on the right track. I especially agree with the

methylcobalamin- as much as possible as mentioned above.
inosine
r-lipoic

The only thing I would add is benfotiamine

Edited by ortcloud, 16 November 2007 - 12:54 AM.


#13 bridgebuilder

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 10:11 PM

Inosine has also shown to be helpful in some cases of nerve injury.

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#14 bridgebuilder

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 10:14 PM

Oops, sorry, did not read the last post.

There's quite a bit of research validating inosines' utility in treating nerve trauma.

Inosine has also shown to be helpful in some cases of nerve injury.






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