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Study on Fluoroquinolone accelerated aging and disease

fluoroquinolone

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#31 YOLF

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 10:30 AM

 

We're on the verge of going in circles here first because all of these terms need to be defined, for example " normal aging." This is beyond the scope of both of us it seems because even science has not been able to define it entirely. Even this website, which has made an attempt to define the "problems" of aging is not definitive.

 

How many of the things on this list would Q's have to cause to create the overall effect of accelerated aging? They do cause cell loss, mitochondrial mutations, cancerous cells ( hypothetically), extracellular matrix stiffening, and the debris of cellular damage over a very short period of time. The issue isn't that these things occur because they do in all humans but that they happen at a rate that exceed our biomachinery's ability to fix them. That's aging, would you agree?

 

Radiation is analagous. We can't feel it, but it is creating disease states that certainly mimic accelerated aging. A little radiation we can deal with -- too much, over a shorter period of time, and we die.

 

What would FQ's have to be doing in addition to these biological events that would define "accelerated aging" to you?

 

I didn't see anything about ECM stiffening.  It looks like they can induce MMP expression resulting in ECM breakdown at a faster rate than it's repaired, but that's not what you see in typical aged tissue.  I don't think we need to define every possible aspect of "normal aging" to be able to talk about the differences between young and old tissue.  The various problems that SENS deals with don't seem to be in dispute.  I'd like to see a good model for aging reproduce many if not most of those.  FQs can, in at least a small percentage of people, cause some cell loss, but not the kind of loss seen in aging.  I don't think there's any evidence that they cause cancer, and the debris of cellular damage isn't that much of a problem in aging, in that it gets cleaned up reasonably quickly.  While I agree that aging is at least in large part caused by damage that accrues faster than we can repair it, FQs mostly cause a different kind of damage, which is why I think it's not a good model for aging.   If we were to propose a project aimed at repairing the damage found in people who were injured by FQs, that would be different.  Some of that technology might carry over to people who were injured in a variety of other ways.  Unfortunately, I think such a project would be well beyond our expertise and ability.  It's also outside of the remit of our organization, which is supporting the goal of curing aging.

 

 

FQS/GWS is certainly part of the landscape of one's aging, and I think you're shopping time points. I don't think there are long term studies on this. But if there is short term cell loss beyond the discontinuation of the drug, wouldn't that trend continue until the damage was cleaned up? In any case, aging means curing all of the things that are going to bring us closer to death. Everyone ages differently and through different pathologies. I'm lactose/galactose intolerant, drinking it or eating other things I'm sensitive to will give me skin problems and all sorts of things that will increase oxidative stress and hasten my aging.

 

I do like the idea of using our technology/expertise to repair the aging caused by FQs, that is interesting. But at the same time, if we find that FQs cause accelerated aging and hastens death (as I expect it will, it can't be good to have mitos not producing enough power, a slower metabolism is a symptom and cause of aging), then we've done our mission and brought another community to our forum who will sympathize/empathize with our mission. That's the real opportunity here. If you've been suffering from something like this, you're going to want to get younger and see an improvement in your health, not just resume life in a more aged and dull condition. People should understand that they can have higher expectations. I think this falls into the advocacy part of our mission. 


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#32 ceridwen

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 01:37 PM

Could I have high quinolinic acid and low serotonin?



#33 UraniumJane

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:53 PM

Yes. Do you have high q acid and low serotonin?



#34 ceridwen

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 09:20 PM

Yes I think so and other neurotransmitters



#35 UraniumJane

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 10:32 PM

Ceridwen

 

If you have high q acid and low serotonin what is happening is that something is breaking in the chain that takes the tryptophan from your food and transforms it into serotonin. It is being processed into q acid instead. What is missing is the interaction with niacinamide which would turn the tryptophan to serotonin -- another way of saying this is that your mitochondria are not active enough to make this transformation. So what I would do if I were you is to limit tryptophan in your diet( without tryptophan you can't make either one) and take niacinamide -- which is what the mitochondria needs to take the trypophan you eat and make it into serotonin.

 

Take bioidentical progesterone since it is neuroprotective, and glycine, since it is also neuroprotective. Gelatin has glycine in it, you could eat jello.

 

 



#36 ceridwen

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 10:41 PM

Thank you very much. I have tried various mitochondrial boosters. They did not make a difference. Will I have to avoid tryptophan for ever?


Would taking NR be helpful



#37 UraniumJane

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 11:01 PM

Unfortunately it's impossible to get away from tryptophan unless you want to try a no-protein diet. Or you could eat gelatin exclusively for protein. I think there is a protein powder on the internet that eliminates the tryptophan.

 

What is NR?



#38 ceridwen

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 11:45 PM

It's not so much that the mitochondria are weak its more as if they've died. Can I regrow them?



#39 UraniumJane

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 11:50 PM

There are a lot of scientists I suppose who would say no. But I believe emphatically yes.



#40 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 12:05 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20463399

 

http://raypeat.com/a...in-cancer.shtml

 

http://taurx.com/science/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25830138


Edited by UraniumJane, 07 July 2015 - 12:10 AM.


#41 niner

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 02:40 AM

There are a lot of scientists I suppose who would say no. But I believe emphatically yes.

 

I don't think that scientists would say that you couldn't regrow mitochondria.  It happens all the time.  The technical term for it is mitochondrial biogenesis.  Exercise induces it, as do a number of supplements.  PQQ is commonly mentioned as an inducer of mitochondrial biogenesis.



#42 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:24 AM

(i think she might have been talking about neural cells niner)



#43 niner

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:35 AM

(i think she might have been talking about neural cells niner)

 

Well, some neural cell regrowth is possible, but it would be easier to regrow mitochondria.   Ceridwen, if you're reading, which did you mean?



#44 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:34 AM

well obviously I'd like both but I meant mitochondria



#45 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:41 AM

Problem is I've tried PQQ and Ubiquinol and I still feel that I am decining



#46 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 06:04 AM

The asprin article doesn't mention the increased risk of macular degeneration and strokes associated with it. My Mother took a small dose of asprin a day and that's what happened to her


admitedly in her early 90s but she might have been a super centenarium otherwise



#47 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 06:18 AM

Mitochondria really are continuously regenerating pretty much all the time, so using any of those substances are helpful but much more helpful if your body has the rest of what it needs. Your body uses nutrition to regenerate -- macronutrients, sugars,  fats, hormones and vitamins. They all have a part to play in regenerating tissue. So if you are deficient in vitamins, even though you are encouraging your cells to regenerate there could be steps missing that discourage the outcome.

 

PQQ is kind of a souped up COQ10, which the body definitely needs to regenerate mitochondria. However if you are also deficient in any of the b vitamins, then COQ10 is not the problem and those things won't really help. Studies done that show success in reviving mitochondria assume that those cells have everything else they need to grow.

 

Re aspirin -- I'd be more likely to conclude that your mother lived that long *because* of the aspirin. I doubt my own genetics will allow me to see my 90's. But regardless, it really depends on the problem you're having. Special supplements recommended for this or that problem may not work for you personally simply because your physiology requires something different.



#48 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 06:38 AM

I eat pretty well except I've now realised I've been eating lots of tryptophan.I've been taking B Vitamins too. I have problems methylating so I've been taking B vitamins with that in mind. I've been wondering if it is a mitochondrial problem seeing as the supplements that are supposed to be for mitochondria don't seem to be doing anything. This morning I am having to put up with tinnitus a very loud hissing noise.



#49 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 07:43 AM

http://www.medical-h...0074-Z/abstract



#50 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 08:01 AM

I thought Huntingdons disease was hereditary
I thought Huntingdons disease was hereditary

#51 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 08:06 AM

It is both hereditary and incurable, though one characteristic of it is very high quinolinic acid. If it can be ameliorated with a low tryptophan diet then limiting tryptophan seems logical for other conditions with the same characteristic  :).



#52 ceridwen

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 08:52 AM

Does that mean I have Huntingdons Disease.

#53 UraniumJane

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:49 AM

An inherited disease would be one that is carried through a genetic ancestral line, such as a person's mother or father, or their siblings; or their mothers and fathers or their siblings.  Incurable means that there is no cure, because the condition has to do with a genetic fault in the way such a person's neurology works and can't at this point be modified.

 

It would be up to your physician to identify this as a potential explanation for your symptoms either through a historical clinical diagnosis or genetic testing.



#54 nabur

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:48 PM

Quinolones can (though they usually don't) cause a variety of characteristic pathologies, but I don't think there's any evidence that the damage involved is similar to the damage caused by aging.  This is a good paper on the musculoskeletal adverse reactions, which are the most common.  (Tendinopathies are the predominant adverse event.)

Please don't take this too personally.  But for someone,such as myself, who has done nothing night and day for almost a year but study the harmful effects of fluoroquinolines, your post came as a punch in the gut.

 

I don't know how long you've been studying fluoroquinolones, or how many hundreds of papers or studies you've read, printed out, and pasted all over your walls until it has obliterated your wallpaper, and I don't know how many fluoroquinolone sites you've been to, to read people's endless sad stories, or how many fluoroquinolone generated videos you've watched, but, from what you said, I'm guessing not a lot.  I'm also guessing that you don't have a huge vested interest in having done so.

 

 I do have a vested interest.  I've been trying to find a way to save what is left of my life.    

 

I'm sorry, but if you believe for even one minute that quinolones do NOT cause a variety of characteristic pathologies, and you don't think there's any evidence that the damage involved is similar to the damage caused by aging, and if you believe that 'tendinopathies are the predominant adverse event," you are SORELY mistaken, and you need to do MUCH more research.

 

The dysfunction of collagen is what causes the 'rapid aging effects.'  Collagen, as I'm sure you know, is the scaffold on which our cells depend for nourishment.  Without collagen, we very quickly move into senescence.

 

 I was in fantastic shape in every way; but after 14 pills of Ciprofloxacin over 7 days, the incredible deterioration began manifesting itself within just a couple of months - the damage to my heart ocurred in just 'one' month.  I was left with weakness, hair loss, major deterioration of muscle, nerve, heart, kidneys, (the kidney deterioration, after little less than a year, has progressed to kidney 'failure).  I suffer allover skin dryness, (an unbelievable dryness), age spots, furrows - not "wrinkles," but deep furrows to the point that I can barely see today. In addition, my skin has become incredibly thin, with cross linking and deep blue, enlarged veins that are obvious over my entire body...this last manifestation was very evident by the second month.

 

"Tendinopathies" I did NOT get, at least no tendon 'ruptures;' "Tendon ruptures" appear to be the only thing doctors, drug companies, the FDA, and anyone else for that matter, tend to focus on....as if it's the only thing about which to be concerned!  

 

I've now joined the throng of the incredibly slow moving, bent over, ancient-looking old men and women that I've always seen at the super market.  I swore I would never let that happen to "me."   And to that end, I exercised religiously, ate an exemplary diet at all times, and neither smoked nor drank. 

 

 I have no doubt that my lifestyle was the reason I was often asked my secret for looking so young - it wasn't just 'looking young' either.  I FELT young!.  

 

Over the years, looking at those poor, sad souls in the super market, I wondered what could possibly have gone wrong in their lives that resulted in their conditions.   

After all I have discovered, now I know.  Somehow, somewhere along the line they were given fluoroquinlones.

 

I'm sorry, but I think the paper you cite does a disservice to fluorquinolone sufferers everywhere.



#55 niner

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 12:06 AM

Nabur, I'm sorry that you were injured so badly by fluoroquinolones.   I suffer from permanent tendinopathy as a result of a combination of fluoroquinolones and steroids.  This is in fact the most common form of quinolone adverse event.  "Most common" doesn't mean that no other adverse events exist.  I'm well aware of the horrible reactions that people have had.  Peoples' lives have been ruined, and some have even died because of these reactions.   I think you're overestimating the frequency of these severe systemic reactions.  For example, there's no way that all those people in the supermarket were suffering from a quinolone reaction.  They were probably decrepit elderly people or suffered from any of a number of possible diseases.  I believe you when you say that quinolones made you feel old, and look old in some ways.  However, I've not seen any evidence that this condition is mechanistically the same as aging.   If you have any papers that talk about the molecular basis of severe quinolone reactions, I'd be happy to look at them, and perhaps they would lead to something to help you get better.  I'd like to help if I can.







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