31 replies to this topic

[ImmortalSpace]

This is something i haven't seen mentioned.. but bone loss is practically as important as collagen loss. Collagenase destroyes collagen and osteoclasts destroy and reduce bone density over time.. the question is obviously what are some good Osteoclast inhibitors to prevent premature bone loss.. obviously wherever there is bone loss. My main point with this topic is, Osteoclast inhibitors are just as important as Collagenase & Elastace inhibitors though some collagen is also important in the formation of bones as a side note. 

 

 

Here's a visual refreence of bone loss with age:

 

Edited by ImmortalSpace, 06 July 2015 - 01:08 AM.

[mustardseed41]

It's been talked about here before. Better threads on it at the forum on essentialdayspa.com

 

I'd say the best you can do is the same thing you do for the rest of your bodies bones.

 

Good diet (that's a loaded comment)

Vitamin K2, both MK4 and MK7. Seems MK4 is the most critical.

D3

Boron

Magnesium

Calcium mainly thru diet

 

Flexeffect facial exercise program has something called "Jolting Reps" that claim help with facial bones but who the hail really knows.

Edited by mustardseed41, 06 July 2015 - 02:14 AM.

[StephCThomp]

Interesting topic and photos.  However I'm not sure I can see meaningful difference in these photos, given that they are (of course) of different people with quite different bone structures. 

 

It would be very interesting to see images like these for a true 'before and after' case study, but we may have to wait many years before such images are available!

[StephCThomp]

Mustardseed, do you have links to those threads at essentialdayspa.com please?  Their forum does not permit searching without being logged in.  Thanks.

[nowayout]

Is that a longitudinal comparison of the same woman?  If not, it's meaningless.  You can find plenty of young woman who look like the photo on the right, and vice versa. 

Edited by nowayout, 12 July 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[mustardseed41]

Mustardseed, do you have links to those threads at essentialdayspa.com please?  Their forum does not permit searching without being logged in.  Thanks.

 

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=49705

 

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=51571

 

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=38033

 

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=45496

Edited by mustardseed41, 12 July 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[ImmortalSpace]

You can easily tell which one is younger bones and youthful bones. The one on the right clearly has volume loss and weakened structure.

[bosharpe]

Anyone recommend a good Boron supplement to prevent loss of bone density? I'm a male in his 30s.

[niner]

Anyone recommend a good Boron supplement to prevent loss of bone density? I'm a male in his 30s.

 

I wouldn't take a boron supplement as a first choice.  I think everyone interested in their health should get a Dexa Scan at least once.  This will tell you your bone mineral density, and is safe and accurate.  If you're lucky, your bones are very healthy and you won't really need to do anything.  Or maybe you will be surprised to discover that you are osteopenic, like I was.  There is a lot you can do without resorting to pharmaceuticals, but in my case, all the supplements were still not enough.  At the moment I'm using an anti-resorptive drug called Prolia, which is injected once every six months.  Previously I used an oral bisphosponate (also an anti-resorptive therapy) which worked great, but dosing was a hassle. 

 

Some osteopenia risk factors are being thin, using corticosteroids, or using SSRIs. 

 

Some dietary sources of boron are almonds, walnuts, avocados, broccoli, potatoes, pears, prunes, honey, oranges, onions, chick peas, carrots, beans, bananas, red grapes, red apples and raisins.  (list from first convenient google hit, livestrong.com)  Vitamins D and K, and calcium, magnesium, silicon, and copper, among others, are also important.

[maxwatt]

Flexing of the long bones, as from running or jumping, has been shown to prevent bone loss (tho excessive running can lead to other problems.)  I think the recommendation in the New York Times writeup on the study suggested jumpine up and down 30 times a day would do the trick.  Whether the effect carried over to other skeletal parts than the legs is moot, but it's possible, even likely,

[motorcitykid]

 

Anyone recommend a good Boron supplement to prevent loss of bone density? I'm a male in his 30s.

 

I wouldn't take a boron supplement as a first choice.  I think everyone interested in their health should get a Dexa Scan at least once.  This will tell you your bone mineral density, and is safe and accurate.  If you're lucky, your bones are very healthy and you won't really need to do anything.  Or maybe you will be surprised to discover that you are osteopenic, like I was.  There is a lot you can do without resorting to pharmaceuticals, but in my case, all the supplements were still not enough.  At the moment I'm using an anti-resorptive drug called Prolia, which is injected once every six months.  Previously I used an oral bisphosponate (also an anti-resorptive therapy) which worked great, but dosing was a hassle. 

 

Some osteopenia risk factors are being thin, using corticosteroids, or using SSRIs. 

 

Some dietary sources of boron are almonds, walnuts, avocados, broccoli, potatoes, pears, prunes, honey, oranges, onions, chick peas, carrots, beans, bananas, red grapes, red apples and raisins.  (list from first convenient google hit, livestrong.com)  Vitamins D and K, and calcium, magnesium, silicon, and copper, among others, are also important.

 

 

Some pretty well-known anti-aging doctors(Dr.Braverman, to name one) are pushing Forteo to treat osteopena.

 

IYO, what is the main advantage of using Prolia instead of Forteo?

 

[bosharpe]

 

Anyone recommend a good Boron supplement to prevent loss of bone density? I'm a male in his 30s.

 

I wouldn't take a boron supplement as a first choice.  I think everyone interested in their health should get a Dexa Scan at least once.  This will tell you your bone mineral density, and is safe and accurate.  If you're lucky, your bones are very healthy and you won't really need to do anything.  Or maybe you will be surprised to discover that you are osteopenic, like I was.  There is a lot you can do without resorting to pharmaceuticals, but in my case, all the supplements were still not enough.  At the moment I'm using an anti-resorptive drug called Prolia, which is injected once every six months.  Previously I used an oral bisphosponate (also an anti-resorptive therapy) which worked great, but dosing was a hassle. 

 

Some osteopenia risk factors are being thin, using corticosteroids, or using SSRIs. 

 

Some dietary sources of boron are almonds, walnuts, avocados, broccoli, potatoes, pears, prunes, honey, oranges, onions, chick peas, carrots, beans, bananas, red grapes, red apples and raisins.  (list from first convenient google hit, livestrong.com)  Vitamins D and K, and calcium, magnesium, silicon, and copper, among others, are also important.

 

 

Ah, thanks for the advice Niner! Osteo never really even occurred to me. 

 

I was thinking more preventative measure, even to strengthen bones. 

[aconita]

Load bearing bones get denser and stronger, weight lifting will work nicely and safely.

 

Impacts on bones causing micro fractures lead to thicker bones, the tibial bone of muay thai professional fighters is usually DOUBLE the average size due to the constant impacts in training, it might lead to bone benign cancer as shown by its much higher than average incidence in that kind of population.

 

If the above will effect other bones, like the facial bones, might be possible to a certain degree but I am not sure it would make sense to relay too heavily on it.

 

The alternative could be to get punched in the face often, many professional boxers do have double the average thickness in the frontal face bone, it would likely make you not much prettier and smarter, unfortunately.

[bosharpe]

I found some relevant articles on building bone that some may find useful. Nothing massively new. I did come across an article that mentioned ipriflavone which I'd not come across before. 

 

This is one from Quora: https://www.quora.co...as-they-are-hit

It's a response to the question 'Do bones get harder as they hit'. The guy talks about bone 'remodeling' etc.

 

This one is one on 'Osteo Tapping', inspired by bone strengthening methods from the far east etc: http://osteotapping.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Others: 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.nutrition...px?articleid=96

https://www.youtube....h?v=I0B05IG6hqs

http://foreverhealth...nes-change.html

http://www.bellemoch...eat-facial.html

http://www.ehow.com/...u-massages.html

 

Fracture calluses or remodelling seem to build bone but whether or not you can apply these notions when thinking about facial bone, I don't know. Neither would I know the right amount of pressure to apply or whether it would cause potential harm. I may give it ago though, after I look into it some more.

Edited by bosharpe, 06 August 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[aconita]

Interesting articles, that was my point: there are two ways to build bones and those are or weight bearing or micro traumas,

 

What is a bit tricky is to apply it to face bones for obvious reasons...

 

I read somewhere that massaging applying kind of heavy pressure might work on face bones, not sure it actually works.

 

A feasible way would be piezoelectric shock waves since the device can be finely tuned to any intensity, including one light enough to be applied to facial bones, I don't know if shock waves on facial bones are allowed by the medical protocol and anyway the treatment would be a bit expensive (with no good reason to be so).

[bosharpe]

Low-magnitude high-frequency vibration (LMHFV) enhances bone remodeling in osteoporotic rat femoral fracture healing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21437955

 

Maybe a ultrasonic device or electronic massager with 'tapping', at 35hz would cause remodelling? The guy in that Quora article mentioned that over the age of 30 remodelling is less beneficial (I may have misunderstood that).

 

Also been reading a lot of people who don't eat dairy (Like myself) are at risk of not getting enough calcium. Supplements are not ideal but can help. Typically out of 100mg you absorb 300gm but an adult male needs 1000mgs per day.

 

http://www.webmd.com...ion-diet?page=3

 

 

[aconita]

The guy in that Quora article mentioned that over the age of 30 remodelling is less beneficial (I may have misunderstood that).

 

You did in fact misunderstood, he states that below 30 years old you don't need to exercise in order to get a positive balance in remodelling bones (I don't fully agree with that, in my view is better said that normal active lifestyle SHOULD be enough to ensure not a great deal of bone loss), after 30 if don't exercise bone loss is inevitable and one has to to exercise in order to slow down to hinder the process.

 

Here the point is that in a young person all the biological processes are working more efficiently and with little effort everything stays more or less in balance, as one gets older those processes slow down if not stimulated and negative outcomes start happening.

 

What I don't agree with is that hitting is the way to go,since it is impossible to hit every single bone in the body in an efficient way and a chain is only as strong as its weaker link, of course.

 

Calcium itself is rarely an issue and dairy is not even the best source for it, vitamin D and K are by far more critical factors for calcium utilization, likely boron too. 

 

In tapping the frequency is unlikely to play a role, intensity is more a factor.

 

 

 

 

 

[bosharpe]

Good points. Boron is very cheap too. LE do a bottle for very little.

[bosharpe]

How about using this? 

 

 

[DoghouseReilly]

The key is to chew hard foods and gum, like chios mastic, until your facial muscles are burning. The pull and strain and tension the muscles exert on the bone will prevent facial bone loss, just as exercising the other muscles in the body prevents bone loss in the bones they are attached to. I chew mastic for 1-3 hours per day, and every single muscle in my face, including those covering the cheekbones, brow, and forehead,not to mention the obvious ones such as the masseters, are exhausted and burning by the time I am through. We must do this if we wish to prevent facial bone atrophy. Typical face exercises are a joke compared to this. We evolved to chew hard, fibrous, rough, tough foods but our modern diets are soft and provide almost no exercise for our facial bones and muscles. We must take appropriate measures to compensate. As the muscles exert stimulus and force on the facial bones, the entire angle of the jaw will slowly (over years) improve, and chin projection will become more aesthetic. Instead of drooping and lengthening with age, the face will become more vertically compact and the maxilla will project, duplicating the superior facial structure of models and other attractive people. A projected maxilla means more undereye support and reduced nasolabial folds. At the very least, aging and atrophy due to facial/jaw bone loss will be prevented. Anyone concerned with facial aging who is not chewing hard gum and food daily is missing out on one of the most significant ane important tools and factors.

Bone remodels, slowly but surely.

[DoghouseReilly]

I can send photos of my own transformation to anyone who is interested. My personal experience with chewing for a few years has led me to believe that this is THE key to preserving facial structure. Our faces literally waste away as we age just the way our hands, arms, legs, or feer would if we never used them. Our faces were made to be exercised every single day and yet we use them not at all, as our modern foods provide almost no resistance. I am not talking about chewing all day long until one gets TMJ, I am talking about intelligent application of stimulus and force for 30 minutes up to 3 hours each day. Regular gum will not work half as well, although it is better than nothing. Chios mastic, which is pure plant sap, is the best thing I have found.

[Lady4T]

Very interesting, DogHouseRilley.

I'm looking for ways to "rescue" my face after decades of not doing anything and hoping that the youthful look would last forever. Obviously I was wrong, because after 50 things began to change rapidly. Everything needs help -- skin, muscles and bones. I just didn't think there was anything I could do about the bone.

 

I have never chewed gum in my life (well, maybe a couple of times when I was a teenager), but your post made sense to me.  I'll be buying some gum.

Thanks  for posting. 

Edited by Lady4T, 15 February 2018 - 11:11 AM.

[Lady4T]

It's been talked about here before. Better threads on it at the forum on essentialdayspa.com

 

I'd say the best you can do is the same thing you do for the rest of your bodies bones.

 

Good diet (that's a loaded comment)

Vitamin K2, both MK4 and MK7. Seems MK4 is the most critical.

D3

Boron

Magnesium

Calcium mainly thru diet

 

Flexeffect facial exercise program has something called "Jolting Reps" that claim help with facial bones but who the hail really knows.

I agree with your diet and supplement recommendation. Especially, lots of magnesium either via foods or magnesium chloride. And no calcium supplement in any form!

[Artificiality]

I can send photos of my own transformation to anyone who is interested. My personal experience with chewing for a few years has led me to believe that this is THE key to preserving facial structure. Our faces literally waste away as we age just the way our hands, arms, legs, or feer would if we never used them. Our faces were made to be exercised every single day and yet we use them not at all, as our modern foods provide almost no resistance. I am not talking about chewing all day long until one gets TMJ, I am talking about intelligent application of stimulus and force for 30 minutes up to 3 hours each day. Regular gum will not work half as well, although it is better than nothing. Chios mastic, which is pure plant sap, is the best thing I have found.

The pictures definitely would be of interest to me. I have been considering chewing gum for a while, but always thought that the results would be negligible. 

[bosharpe]

The key is to chew hard foods and gum, like chios mastic, until your facial muscles are burning. The pull and strain and tension the muscles exert on the bone will prevent facial bone loss, just as exercising the other muscles in the body prevents bone loss in the bones they are attached to. I chew mastic for 1-3 hours per day, and every single muscle in my face, including those covering the cheekbones, brow, and forehead,not to mention the obvious ones such as the masseters, are exhausted and burning by the time I am through. We must do this if we wish to prevent facial bone atrophy. Typical face exercises are a joke compared to this. We evolved to chew hard, fibrous, rough, tough foods but our modern diets are soft and provide almost no exercise for our facial bones and muscles. We must take appropriate measures to compensate. As the muscles exert stimulus and force on the facial bones, the entire angle of the jaw will slowly (over years) improve, and chin projection will become more aesthetic. Instead of drooping and lengthening with age, the face will become more vertically compact and the maxilla will project, duplicating the superior facial structure of models and other attractive people. A projected maxilla means more undereye support and reduced nasolabial folds. At the very least, aging and atrophy due to facial/jaw bone loss will be prevented. Anyone concerned with facial aging who is not chewing hard gum and food daily is missing out on one of the most significant ane important tools and factors.

Bone remodels, slowly but surely.

 

 

Yes I'd be interested in seeing some examples, please. Are you sure you aren't just strengthening the muscles in your face?

 

Also do you have any references or further reading on this?

[bosharpe]

So various options I've heard so far seem to be: Osteo Tapping, Chewing Mastic, Whole Body Vibration?.., Sups (Boron, D3, Magnesium, MK4), Shiatsu Jaw Bone Massage and getting punched in the face...

[Lady4T]

I can send photos of my own transformation to anyone who is interested. My personal experience with chewing for a few years has led me to believe that this is THE key to preserving facial structure.

< snip >

 

I too would be interested in seeing the extent of your facial changes. Please send me t\photos. I bought some gum (natural chicle) yesterday and started chewing, but I'd like to see your results (or others?) before I continue to buy the stuff.

Thanks in advance.
 

[Artificiality]

Pictures yet to be received ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JR7]

I would love to see some pictures as well please.

[Lady4T]

I guess the poster changed his mind about sending photos...

 

Anyway, I started chewing gum (Simply Gum) about three weeks ago. I chew it for about 30~40 minutes after dinner. 

I guess it's too early to really tell, but I feel that my cheeks are a little firmer. No idea if the chewing is doing anything for my facial bones, but it seems to be toning my cheek muscles. I'll continue and re-evaluate in about a month.