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Memantine and cognitive flexibility

memantine cognitive flexibility autism adhd

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#1 Duchykins

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 06:10 PM


Hey guys.

 

I know there have been past threads on memantine but the ones I looked through didn't really cover the information I'm interested in.

 

I've decided to give memantine a trial run to see if it improves my quality of life as a migraineur and an autistic/Aspie with ADHD-inattentive features.  I have an obvious deficit in clearing extracellular glutamate in a timely fashion, as well as a few abnormal neurotransmitter systems and mitochondrial function. 

 

So I've read plenty about the benefits of memantine because that information is all over the place, but not too much about its adverse effects.  I read that memantine could impair cognitive flexibility.  I haven't seen much of an elaboration on the how or why.  Is it dose dependent?  Is it simply highly variable among individuals?  Is it even true at all?

 

My main concern about this is that I've seen a bunch of suspicious bullshit about memantine and autism.  I've seen articles that say it helps and others that warn away.  I believe I can see the reason for this due to glutamate.  Autistics more often than not seem to have a problem with abnormal glutamatergic systems and abnormal neuronal excitability.  It would follow that anything that results in a desensitization, inhibition or modulation of glutamate could hypothetically have applications in mitigated autistic symptoms. 

 

On the other hand, cognitive flexibility is well established as impaired in autistics across the spectrum, much more so than any connection to glutamate.  If memantine impairs cognitive flexibility in non-autistics then it could exacerbate this symptom in autistics.  That would be a serious problem for an autistic because that is one of the most significantly impairing aspects of being autistic (depending on circumstance), commonly referred to as problems with "task switching" "set shifting" "hyperfocus" "perseveration."

 

Does anyone have knowledge of this issue? 


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#2 sativa

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 08:51 AM

Hi,

I can only share with you my particular perspective of Memantine.

Its a very interesting compound. I mainly used it for its anti-addictive/tolerance reducing potential (NMDA antagonism) and its intelligence boosting effects (via alpha-7 NAChR antagonism, alpha-7 controls awareness and intelligence, and is responsible for the expanded logical processing from psychedelics.)

Antagonism of these receptors leads to upregulation. During the temporary antagonism phase, you will feel a bit of cognitive blunting.

I also use it out of pure scientific interest in exploring my receptors and their corresponding effects...its a D2 agonist too. D2 agonism tend to result/promote the following type of experience:

"Memantine produces a feeling of childlike wonder; it connects you with how you innocently viewed the world as a child. You don't take anything for granted anymore, you feel it all. You feel that curiosity and that "spark of life" that you remember from long ago but no longer feel."

I've only used it twice. I am saving them for when I really require its pharmacological aspects.

Edited by sativa, 09 July 2015 - 08:53 AM.


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#3 Major Legend

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 04:15 AM

Hi,

 

The clinical effects of Memantine only become useful after about a month or so, though some people notice effects immedietely, there are acute and chronic effects, the chemical seems to have an effect for 8 hours but has an half life of 100 hours. You have to start at 5mg, and only titrate up 5mg every 1-2 weeks (2 weeks if you can't stand the slip of the tongue syndrome).

 

"The key to memantine's therapeutic action lies in its uncompetitive binding to the NMDAR through which low affinity and rapid off-rate kinetics of memantine at the level of the NMDAR-channel preserves the physiological function of the receptor, underpinning memantine's tolerability and low adverse event profile."

 

This specific action of memantine is what makes it really interesting to me at the moment, it means memantine can provide the benefits of an NMDA antagonist without the disadvantages, memantine is also very specific on receptors but does not cause much side effects. The challenge of specific receptor ligands in the recent years has always been bad side effect profiles, because complete action on specific receptors turns out to be a really bad thing.

 

That said -

 

The idea is that the chronic effects eventually overtake the acute effects, Memantine actually impairs cognitive performance because it is a pretty potent A7 Nicotinic AcetyleCholine Inhibitor (http://jpet.aspetjou...312/3/1195.full) .

 

So I think the reason why Memantine was never revisited, was as I say in my other posts - that its as really hard substance to get started on because you have to get through the immediate effects, and most people were expecting way too much of its anti tolerance effects, especially in light of the fact that Amphetamine tolerance, rebound and side effects are not just purely due to receptor density change.

 

 

 

N-methyl D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonists and memantine treatment for Alzheimer's disease, vascular dementia and Parkinson's disease.
Abstract

Memantine, a partial antagonist of N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor (NMDAR), approved for moderate to severe Alzheimer's disease (AD) treatment within the U.S. and Europe under brand name Namenda (Forest), Axura and Akatinol (Merz), and Ebixa and Abixa (Lundbeck), may have potential in alleviating additional neurological conditions, such as vascular dementia (VD) and Parkinson's disease (PD). In various animal models, memantine has been reported to be a neuroprotective agent that positively impacts both neurodegenerative and vascular processes. While excessive levels of glutamate result in neurotoxicity, in part through the over-activation of NMDARs, memantine-as a partial NMDAR antagonist, blocks the NMDA glutamate receptors to normalize the glutamatergic system and ameliorate cognitive and memory deficits. The key to memantine's therapeutic action lies in its uncompetitive binding to the NMDAR through which low affinity and rapid off-rate kinetics of memantine at the level of the NMDAR-channel preserves the physiological function of the receptor, underpinning memantine's tolerability and low adverse event profile. As the biochemical pathways evoked by NMDAR antagonism also play a role in PD and since no other drug is sufficiently effective to substitute for the first-line treatment of L-dopa despite its side effects, memantine may be useful in PD treatment with possibly fewer side effects. In spite of the relative modest nature of its adverse effects, memantine has been shown to provide only a moderate decrease in clinical deterioration in AD and VD, and hence efforts are being undertaken in the design of new and more potent memantine-based drugs to hopefully provide greater efficacy.

PMID:   21875407   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

There is a great list of papers made by medievil and others some years ago when he was a frequent poster: 

 

http://www.longecity...e-does-it-work/

 

 

Also I believe autism is a very wide label, so its probably really individualistic hence why somethings work for some and some things work for others. I think most the comorbid disorders of all autistic traits probably come from developmental metamorphosis via inflammation in varying degrees, of which the spread is totally random, since that is the nature of inflammation. There are similarities but I think autistic people are all very different case by case, and there are varying levels of it that goes all the way from a touch autistic to fully unable to do normal activities,the different in severity means that the solution to autism for each case is probably different.


Edited by Major Legend, 10 July 2015 - 04:17 AM.

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#4 sativa

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:12 PM

In the domain of nmda antagonists, what about Agmatine? (A non-competitive antagonist) Granted, it does have quite a broad range of action...

-"Agmatine is also sometimes referred to as a neuromodulator. This is likely related to the observations that agmatine can positively modulate signalling through the NMDA receptor (via putrescine[84]), α2 adrenergic receptors,[85] and serotonergic receptors (5-HT1A/1B)[86] at low concentrations..."

-"Agmatine is a ligand for imidazoline receptors with most affinity towards the I1 receptor subset followed by I2b.[90] Its affinity is greater enough to displace idazoxan from the receptor, similar to how it can displace clonidine from the α2A receptor[91] and has been calculated (EC50 values) at 0.7µM and 1µM for I1 and I2 receptors, respectively."

-"Downstream of the imidazoline receptor lays an increase in β-endorphin secretion."

Edited by sativa, 10 July 2015 - 11:13 PM.


#5 Duchykins

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:38 PM

Thanks you guys, I have lots of reading to do!

 

I wish it weren't so but since my daughter was diagnosed with autism, her neurologist ordered some genetic tests, and when the results came back he did not want to discuss them with me because one came back that was not negative, and genetics was beyond his purview.  So he turned everything over to the Stanford genetics department and I had to wait a few more months to hear the news.  They said she had an abnormality on one of her X chromosomes (but they wouldn't say Fragile X) and that given my history, my family history, they wanted to test me next.  We're actually waiting for approval from the insurance for the additional testing right now... sucks...

 

BUT I would be so excited to find something that could help not just me but my daughter, who is in a way worse position than I am on the spectrum (she's speech delayed whereas I was an early and prolific reader)


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#6 Major Legend

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:38 AM

In the domain of nmda antagonists, what about Agmatine? (A non-competitive antagonist) Granted, it does have quite a broad range of action...

-"Agmatine is also sometimes referred to as a neuromodulator. This is likely related to the observations that agmatine can positively modulate signalling through the NMDA receptor (via putrescine[84]), α2 adrenergic receptors,[85] and serotonergic receptors (5-HT1A/1B)[86] at low concentrations..."

-"Agmatine is a ligand for imidazoline receptors with most affinity towards the I1 receptor subset followed by I2b.[90] Its affinity is greater enough to displace idazoxan from the receptor, similar to how it can displace clonidine from the α2A receptor[91] and has been calculated (EC50 values) at 0.7µM and 1µM for I1 and I2 receptors, respectively."

-"Downstream of the imidazoline receptor lays an increase in β-endorphin secretion."

 

Yeah agmatine sulphate is also a very good chemical, memantine seems to have more noticeable effects for better or worse, probably due to it being extremely specific. Agmatine acts on like 3 different mechanisms all together that can reduce tolerance indirectly. So its a for withdrawal/rebound its a great supplement to consider on together with rhodiola and ashwagandha.


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#7 sativa

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 07:41 AM

Yeah agmatine sulphate is also a very good chemical, memantine seems to have more noticeable effects for better or worse, probably due to it being extremely specific. Agmatine acts on like 3 different mechanisms all together that can reduce tolerance indirectly. So its a for withdrawal/rebound its a great supplement to consider on together with rhodiola and ashwagandha.

Indeed. Its effects are quite unique.

On the subject of reducing tolerances and improving general cognitive function, here is a quote from another forum which provides some interesting and unique perspectives:

"In either case the only detriment to NMDA antagonism is cognitive deficit. It dissociates you just like ketamine in a dose dependent way, limiting spacial coordination and complex thought. The benefits of it are worthwhile though: addiction control, tolerance control, antidepressant..."

I have a set of plants/supplements i use for revitalising/refreshing by neuronal system as well as increasing its cognitive potential. Notably NMDA antagonists, Prolactin Inhibitor (prolactin inhibits the dopamine system) and blue lotus (this resensitizes and balances the dopamine system)

We're actually waiting for approval from the insurance for the additional testing right now... sucks...

BUT I would be so excited to find something that could help not just me but my daughter, who is in a way worse position than I am on the spectrum (she's speech delayed whereas I was an early and prolific reader)

Sorry to hear. I'm from the UK by the way, I've heard many a tale about the American "Health Care" system...

I have a fair bit of exposure to and experience of autism & related "conditions" (eugh hate that word in this context...)

Have you explored all avenues for possible solutions/improvements of autism?

Notably diet (for example, avoidance of oxalic acid/gluten/lectins) as well as the removal of all toxic substances and heavy metals that can play an integral role in autism - for example:

Polyunsaturated fatty acids (omega 6 - they have the effect of signalling the body into a hibernating state thus slowing down metabolism which is not desirable. They also promote inflammation as they are converted to inflammatory substances)
Fluoride/Bromide/Chlorine
Mercury
Aluminium
PTFE (non stck Teflon coating)
BPA (synthetic estrogen mimicking endocrine disruptor found in plastic and lining the inside of the metal on canned goods.
Pesticides (are you familiar with the "dirty dozen" - a list of the non organic food items with the highest risk of containing pesticides)
Vaccines (tend to contain some notoriously toxic substances as well as the vaccine itself which can contribute to an imbalance the immune system response, ie th1 verses th2)
Antibiotics - can decimate ones gut flora population and diversity which, due to their symbiotic nature with our health, can contribute to overall health issues
Gluten (including other grains except white rice) & Dairy
Both the Caesin protein and proteins in gluten can be improperly digestsled into peptides with opioid properties. This can further destabilise a persons neuronal system.

Detoxing from the above is feasible and for the most part, cheap.

Liver support (master detoxification organ. Its function can be improved by the use of bitters which stimulate the vagus nerve, thus digestion - but also the liver)
Sodium thiosulphate (de chlorinates water)
Boron (as borax decahydrate, a natural antifungal, removes fluoride and provides much missing boron element to the body, a lack which is implicated in arthritis)
Lugols iodine solution (removes Fluoride and Mercury)
Source of sulphur in diet (sulphur used by the livers detox system)
Probiotic foods such as cultured (fermented) vegetables and drinks (eg water kefir)
A consideration of the condition of ones digestive tract - notably looking out for signs of leaky gut (which can include immune issues and inflammation)

Things such as electromagnetic radiation have a role to play as well, notably indoor WiFi signals. I am lucky to live on the very top floor which is the furthest room from the WiFi router that is on 24/7 (except when I turn it off whilst I am spending a large amount of time nearby

Related to the above, have you heard of the element called Indium? It appears to be critical in the proper fictioning of the bodies hormonal system, and most humans are significantly deficient/completely lacking in it by age 25. Since taking a drop evert few days, I have definitely felt an overall improvement; notably fluidity in all aspects!

Silica is another important element, i use food grade diatomaceous earth which I sprinkle a tiny amount into my water which sits for at least a day. The water turns the silica rich diatomaceous earth into a highly bioavailable form of silica. Silica is more important than calcium for bone health!

Ah...and lastly, Gelatin (collagen powder) is also very effective at detoxing, as a result of its ideal ratio and content of amino acids (lacking tryptophan, methionine and cysteine, but this is part of its appeal)
I use a brand in a green cylindrical container that is pure collagen hydroslate, which means the proteins have been hydrolysed to their component amino acids which improves absorption significantly!

(The glycine amongst other things, aids liver detoxification)

Edited by sativa, 11 July 2015 - 08:41 AM.


#8 Duchykins

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 02:32 PM

 

Sorry to hear. I'm from the UK by the way, I've heard many a tale about the American "Health Care" system...

I have a fair bit of exposure to and experience of autism & related "conditions" (eugh hate that word in this context...)

Have you explored all avenues for possible solutions/improvements of autism?

Notably diet (for example, avoidance of oxalic acid/gluten/lectins) as well as the removal of all toxic substances and heavy metals that can play an integral role in autism - for example:

Polyunsaturated fatty acids (omega 6 - they have the effect of signalling the body into a hibernating state thus slowing down metabolism which is not desirable. They also promote inflammation as they are converted to inflammatory substances)
Fluoride/Bromide/Chlorine
Mercury
Aluminium
PTFE (non stck Teflon coating)
BPA (synthetic estrogen mimicking endocrine disruptor found in plastic and lining the inside of the metal on canned goods.
Pesticides (are you familiar with the "dirty dozen" - a list of the non organic food items with the highest risk of containing pesticides)
Vaccines (tend to contain some notoriously toxic substances as well as the vaccine itself which can contribute to an imbalance the immune system response, ie th1 verses th2)
Antibiotics - can decimate ones gut flora population and diversity which, due to their symbiotic nature with our health, can contribute to overall health issues
Gluten (including other grains except white rice) & Dairy
Both the Caesin protein and proteins in gluten can be improperly digestsled into peptides with opioid properties. This can further destabilise a persons neuronal system.

Detoxing from the above is feasible and for the most part, cheap.

Liver support (master detoxification organ. Its function can be improved by the use of bitters which stimulate the vagus nerve, thus digestion - but also the liver)
Sodium thiosulphate (de chlorinates water)
Boron (as borax decahydrate, a natural antifungal, removes fluoride and provides much missing boron element to the body, a lack which is implicated in arthritis)
Lugols iodine solution (removes Fluoride and Mercury)
Source of sulphur in diet (sulphur used by the livers detox system)
Probiotic foods such as cultured (fermented) vegetables and drinks (eg water kefir)
A consideration of the condition of ones digestive tract - notably looking out for signs of leaky gut (which can include immune issues and inflammation)

Things such as electromagnetic radiation have a role to play as well, notably indoor WiFi signals. I am lucky to live on the very top floor which is the furthest room from the WiFi router that is on 24/7 (except when I turn it off whilst I am spending a large amount of time nearby

Related to the above, have you heard of the element called Indium? It appears to be critical in the proper fictioning of the bodies hormonal system, and most humans are significantly deficient/completely lacking in it by age 25. Since taking a drop evert few days, I have definitely felt an overall improvement; notably fluidity in all aspects!

Silica is another important element, i use food grade diatomaceous earth which I sprinkle a tiny amount into my water which sits for at least a day. The water turns the silica rich diatomaceous earth into a highly bioavailable form of silica. Silica is more important than calcium for bone health!

Ah...and lastly, Gelatin (collagen powder) is also very effective at detoxing, as a result of its ideal ratio and content of amino acids (lacking tryptophan, methionine and cysteine, but this is part of its appeal)
I use a brand in a green cylindrical container that is pure collagen hydroslate, which means the proteins have been hydrolysed to their component amino acids which improves absorption significantly!

(The glycine amongst other things, aids liver detoxification)

 

 

 

I've quite a bit about autism in the past 3 years but I'm not about to pretend I've about all possible causes.

 

There are some I know are bunk:  vaccines, antibiotics, gluten.  I am a very science-minded person and these kinds of claims have been proven wrong.

 

While I don't doubt the heavy metals can injure the brain and cause autistic-like behavior, there is no way that metal poisoning is responsible for even 10% of autism diagnoses.  

 

I used to try to hang out in forums for parents with autism but I couldn't handle it anymore because hysterical people are hurting their children with the following:

 

Chelation regimens.  I've never spoken to a parent that saw an improvement after therapy.  Nearly every last one of them either interrupted therapy because their child was worse or got very sick, or saw it all the way through and their poor child was so fucked up the parents are wallowing in guilt (some were suicidal), or the child needed urgent medical care.  There is no quick recovery from chelation injuries in these kids.  

 

Iodine solution.  Lugol's is NOT for human consumption AT ALL.  Especially not children.  Topical application only if used at all. 

 

"Detox" regimens.  I've never seen a "detox" regimen on the internet that was harmless or at least did a little more good than harm.  I'm now to the point where even seeing the word "detox" immediately reminds me of homeopathy.  There is also almost no scientific foundation for stuff like bowel cleanse, liver cleanse, etc.

 

Autism diets don't "work" aside from incidentally reducing junk food.  What I found really sad though, was that there are a few things one could do with the diet to mitigate symptoms and that is being mindful of substances that support mitochondrial energy production and transport, and prevent glutamatergic overstimulation (in those whose symptoms do not involve hypoglutamatergic neurotransmission but you can often tell who is who just by watching their behavior).   But you almost never see this when these douchebags are talking about autism diets!  It's always about gluten and casein, intestinal permeability blown way out of proportion, pH quackery, and other useless (but not harmless) voodoo science.

 

I have no use for any of that stuff aside from probiotics, because those are just useful for all kinds of stuff if you get the right kind and use it properly.  And we love kefir.

 

On the positive side, there is useful application in some nutritional supplements.  Minerals, vitamins, active Bs, certain amino acids.  Maybe a few choice noots.

 

 

In our case at least, the foundational cause is genetics.  There is a genetic and hereditary relationship between the following: autism, ADHD, dyslexia, sensory processing disorder, migraine, bipolar, so much so that there is often an overlap between them.  My father was manic depressive and dyslexic.  My little brother has ADHD.  My mom and a bunch of other people in her family are migraineurs.   I have all except dyslexia and bipolar.  Several of these share common problems like deficits in mitochondrial energy and glutamatergic, dopaminergic, GABAergic systems.  And histamine.  All of these things can actually be caused just by mitochondrial dysfunction alone.   I'm pretty sure this clusterfuck is the only reason Stanford is interested in running more tests on us, because they already told us it was not for the purpose of treatment.

 

 

I can't take collagen because it triggers migraines, which sucks because I take tryptophan sometimes and collagen should be taken with it.  We take glycine but not for detox purposes.  We also take taurine and methionine but not because of sulfur concerns.  We love spinach, soymilk and wheat bread.

 

EMF and WiFi?  I was just in this thread:

 

http://www.longecity...en-feel-it-yes/

 

Well, that's my general attitude on this kind of stuff.  I appreciate your help nonetheless.   :)


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#9 Major Legend

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:39 AM

On the "dirty" stuff there is no way you can possibily avoid pollution contaminants anyways, better accept it as part of life. It's not that big a deal, and if you want to live forever, your only chance is to take substances that mitigate the damage of those chemicals. I mean this stuff is in everything, from your food to the air, the only way to avoid industrial pollution contaminants is to live permanently in a floatation tank with a life support system.

 

Think of it this way, the life expectancy in China is higher than the life expectancy of the United States, everyone in China is probably poisoned by and consume heavy metals much more than any western developed country. I am also sure most people in the US get more "healthcare" than your average Chinese. Not saying this is a good thing, but if you live in the UK/US etc and are paranoid about heavy metals - you should probably be paranoid about other more lethal things such as high sugar, processed foods.

 

On the topic of autism. Oxytocin is well worth looking into.

 

 


Edited by Major Legend, 12 July 2015 - 04:50 AM.

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#10 sativa

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:45 AM

On the topic of autism. Oxytocin is well worth looking into.


Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.

#11 Duchykins

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 05:48 AM

On the "dirty" stuff there is no way you can possibily avoid pollution contaminants anyways, better accept it as part of life. It's not that big a deal, and if you want to live forever, your only chance is to take substances that mitigate the damage of those chemicals. I mean this stuff is in everything, from your food to the air, the only way to avoid industrial pollution contaminants is to live permanently in a floatation tank with a life support system.

 

Think of it this way, the life expectancy in China is higher than the life expectancy of the United States, everyone in China is probably poisoned by and consume heavy metals much more than any western developed country. I am also sure most people in the US get more "healthcare" than your average Chinese. Not saying this is a good thing, but if you live in the UK/US etc and are paranoid about heavy metals - you should probably be paranoid about other more lethal things such as high sugar, processed foods.

 

On the topic of autism. Oxytocin is well worth looking into.

 

Well said here.

 

And the oxytocin, I know!  I tried to get a script for a nasal spray from my pdoc but he wasn't familiar with it enough to be comfortable prescribing it. :wacko:   I looked at stuff on the internet but it's so iffy with the OTC stuff, and expensive.  I already promised myself to try to get it from another doc later.


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#12 Duchykins

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 05:57 AM

 

Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.

 

 

 

What about lemongrass?  I know they're from different plants but share a few similar properties.  I have a lot of calming herbal teas but two in particular are my absolute favorites, and both happen to have a good % of lemongrass (none of the others have lemongrass at all).


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#13 sativa

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 07:58 AM

Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.



What about lemongrass? I know they're from different plants but share a few similar properties. I have a lot of calming herbal teas but two in particular are my absolute favorites, and both happen to have a good % of lemongrass (none of the others have lemongrass at all).

It is the limonene substance (terpene) which releases oxytocin (via 5-HT1B). Lemon essential oil can contain up to 95% limonene, Lemongrass I think around 5%.

Lemongrass also contains mycrene (12-25%) which is what is causing relaxation. Mycrene also significantly contributes to the effects of cannabis.

These are interesting studies on myrcene of lemongrass oil showing it has sedating possibly analgesic properties.

If you are after some thorough relaxation and de-stress then Lavander oil is what you want - the constituent of interest here is called linalool and has effects on GABA. It basically calms you down etc significantly.

#14 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 02:39 AM

 

 

Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.



What about lemongrass? I know they're from different plants but share a few similar properties. I have a lot of calming herbal teas but two in particular are my absolute favorites, and both happen to have a good % of lemongrass (none of the others have lemongrass at all).

It is the limonene substance (terpene) which releases oxytocin (via 5-HT1B). Lemon essential oil can contain up to 95% limonene, Lemongrass I think around 5%.

Lemongrass also contains mycrene (12-25%) which is what is causing relaxation. Mycrene also significantly contributes to the effects of cannabis.

These are interesting studies on myrcene of lemongrass oil showing it has sedating possibly analgesic properties.

If you are after some thorough relaxation and de-stress then Lavander oil is what you want - the constituent of interest here is called linalool and has effects on GABA. It basically calms you down etc significantly.

 

 

 

Thanks for your help.  I went to pick up my sumatriptan prescription today and found some lemon essential oil to try.  

 

I hope the limonene doesn't bother me too much since I read it was an AChE inhibitor and I tend to be intolerant of all but the weakest cholinergics.  We'll see soon.

 

I also saw the lavender oil there but at the last minute some vague memory was triggered about lavender and estrogen, but I didn't remember any specifics beyond that association, so I wanted to get home and double check before buying.  I still have my teas though, and lavender is in some of my favorites so that will have to do for now.


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#15 sativa

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 02:46 AM

Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.

What about lemongrass? I know they're from different plants but share a few similar properties. I have a lot of calming herbal teas but two in particular are my absolute favorites, and both happen to have a good % of lemongrass (none of the others have lemongrass at all).
It is the limonene substance (terpene) which releases oxytocin (via 5-HT1B). Lemon essential oil can contain up to 95% limonene, Lemongrass I think around 5%.

Lemongrass also contains mycrene (12-25%) which is what is causing relaxation. Mycrene also significantly contributes to the effects of cannabis.

These are interesting studies on myrcene of lemongrass oil showing it has sedating possibly analgesic properties.

If you are after some thorough relaxation and de-stress then Lavander oil is what you want - the constituent of interest here is called linalool and has effects on GABA. It basically calms you down etc significantly.
Thanks for your help. I went to pick up my sumatriptan prescription today and found some lemon essential oil to try.

I hope the limonene doesn't bother me too much since I read it was an AChE inhibitor and I tend to be intolerant of all but the weakest cholinergics. We'll see soon.

I also saw the lavender oil there but at the last minute some vague memory was triggered about lavender and estrogen, but I didn't remember any specifics beyond that association, so I wanted to get home and double check before buying. I still have my teas though, and lavender is in some of my favorites so that will have to do for now.
I wouldn't worry about the possible lavander estrogen "issue"! For me its a non issue. (I keep my testosterone production optimal and counter estrogenic activity wherever possible)

Peppermint oil is effective for headaches. I've just put some at the base of my skull where it meets the spine. It provides cooling and calming relief from a slight inner head migraine that had just arisen (perhaps from my agmatine, theanine, blue lotus and magnesium combo plus tangerine oil on my torso...)

Slightly of topic but i just looked up Sumatriptan - "it is an analog of the naturally occurring neuro-active alkaloids dimethyltryptamine (DMT), bufotenine, and 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine."

Interesting! Magic Mushrooms (4-HO-DMT) also help with migraines.

Its a vasoconstrictor via 5-HT1D and 1B activity.

How long have you been using the triptan?

Maybe you are aware already but apparently - "There is a very strong connection between migraines and magnesium deficiency."

Here is where i found that http://www.chicvegan...ines-naturally/

Edited by sativa, 18 July 2015 - 03:10 AM.


#16 atrw55

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:41 PM

Is memantine with short time half-life?



#17 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 05:49 PM

 

Slightly of topic but i just looked up Sumatriptan - "it is an analog of the naturally occurring neuro-active alkaloids dimethyltryptamine (DMT), bufotenine, and 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine."

Interesting! Magic Mushrooms (4-HO-DMT) also help with migraines.

Its a vasoconstrictor via 5-HT1D and 1B activity.

How long have you been using the triptan?

Maybe you are aware already but apparently - "There is a very strong connection between migraines and magnesium deficiency."

Here is where i found that http://www.chicvegan...ines-naturally/

 

 

 

Mushrooms have been known to sometimes abort cluster headaches, which are different from classic, common, hemiplegic, and ocular migraines.  All of these have slightly different mechanisms in the brain and respond differently to various treatments.   Mushrooms tend not to be more effective than placebo in migraineurs.  Additionally, I am personally averse to messing with those kinds of substances.

 

I appreciate what you are trying to do but I have been a migraineur for 12 years and have had fantastic motivation to learn as much as I could about migraines in order to abort and prevent them.

 

I already do take magnesium, as well as a host of other supplements that work well together with my other prophylactics. 

 

There is nothing on the market right now that is a better migraine abortive than sumatriptan (it's even better than the other triptans) for me.  My first dose was a shot in the ER way back before there were any generics for Imitrex.  I couldn't afford to fill the brand name prescription so I had to keep going back for shots.  It went on like this (about 2 years) until I joined the Army and was able to get my own monthly prescription.  So ... yeah, sumatriptan for the better part of the last decade.


Edited by Duchykins, 18 July 2015 - 06:00 PM.

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#18 sativa

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 06:55 PM

So ... yeah, sumatriptan for the better part of the last decade.


I wasn't suggesting you take mushrooms (haha), just pondering on pharmacology et al.

I know very little about migraines!

Have you ever cone close to figuring the root cause of your migraines?

#19 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:21 PM

 

So ... yeah, sumatriptan for the better part of the last decade.


I wasn't suggesting you take mushrooms (haha), just pondering on pharmacology et al.

I know very little about migraines!

Have you ever cone close to figuring the root cause of your migraines?

 

 

It's genetic and neurological.  Something about mutations affecting mitochondrial and/or glutamatergic dysregulation.  Also possibly using tyrosine to make abnormal amounts of l-dopa (too little) and tyramine (too much) or general dopamine dysregulation.

 

In any case, the migraine brain is certainly easily overexcited and has little tolerance for change.


And incidentally, a lot of those things are also implicated in autism.   :unsure:


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#20 sativa

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:25 PM

Have you ever come close to figuring the root cause of your migraines?

It's genetic and neurological. Something about mutations affecting mitochondrial and/or glutamatergic dysregulation. Also possibly using tyrosine to make abnormal amounts of l-dopa (too little) and tyramine (too much) or general dopamine dysregulation.

In any case, the migraine brain is certainly easily overexcited and has little tolerance for change.

And incidentally, a lot of those things are also implicated in autism. :unsure:
I see! With that context, I understand how NMDA antagonists can help re the over excitement. Have you ever tried any NMDA antagonists?

Its a bit ironic, the "agmatine, theanine, blue lotus and magnesium glycinate" combo i took (and mentioned) a few posts earlier combines several NMDA antagonists which synergize. I also have some iboga full spectrum extract - (this is the ultimate NMDA antagonist amongst other beneficial cognitive modes of action...)

Edited by sativa, 18 July 2015 - 07:29 PM.


#21 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:28 PM

Not really.  Not counting magnesium.


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#22 sativa

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:33 PM

Not really. Not counting magnesium.


Oh wow, so you have never experienced NMDA antagonism?! Substance induced I mean. Its definitely an experience to be had. Memantine also improves cognition via alpha 7 nicotinic muscarinic receptor antagonism (which get upregulated)

By the by, have you ever had any vaccines? Being in the military i would assume so? Just curious.

#23 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:34 PM

 

Not really. Not counting magnesium.


Oh wow, so you have never experienced NMDA antagonism?! Substance induced I mean. Its definitely an experience to be had. Memantine also improves cognition via alpha 7 nicotinic muscarinic receptor antagonism (which get upregulated)

By the by, have you ever had any vaccines? Being in the military i would assume so? Just curious.

 

 

 

I have had vaccines, but why?


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#24 sativa

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:43 PM

I have had vaccines, but why?

Oh just the possibility of the adjuvants causing problems and the potential imbalancing of the immune systems overall response status (th1 response verses th2 response) of which is likely a root factor/cause of a plethora of health issues.

For NMDA antagonism I take several things which synergize: Zinc, Mg, Agmatine, Theanine, D2 agonists (NMDA antagonism downstream) and occasionally N.A.Cysteine.

If you have issues with to much glutamate, would the upregulation of your NMDA receptors (following NMDA antagonism) not increase the problem of over excitation? - as there would be more NMDA target sites for your abundant amount of glutamate to bind to?

Just a thought.

(My post limit is reached for today btw)

Edited by sativa, 18 July 2015 - 07:44 PM.


#25 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 07:48 PM

I take theanine 2 to 3 times a day.  I have no tolerance for even small doses of NAC because it triggers nonallergic systemic histamine release.

 

My problem with glutamate is clearing it in a timely fashion.  Extracellular glutamate.  But the glutamate is not the problem, it's just a symptom of the real problem.

 

Vaccines have nothing to do with true migraine whatsoever, which has been around for at least hundreds of years (going by historical records), probably longer.


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#26 Duchykins

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 06:43 AM

 

Lemon essential oil (GRAS) releases oxytocin via 5-HT1B agonism. The most I've taken orally in a capsule is ~60 drops. Its very safe and intact stimulates liver phase 2 detoxification.

 

 

So I'm on day 3, well technically day 4 now and I cannot believe I am about to tell you.   In the first day, I took my usual .5 ativan around noon, kept huffing the oil bottle, dripping onto cloth and putting it over my shoulder ...and felt awesome all day until later that night I realized that hadn't taken the other .5 mg I sometimes do, nor was I my usually frazzled and irritable mess at that time of day.  So the next day I take no ativan and how that goes (I'm fully expecting to be anxious and irritable with my tinnitus getting louder) with just huffing the cap of the bottle was enough for me for the while day, I didn't even have to bother trying to resist urges to take ativan because I honestly didn't think about it all. Third day woke up with louder tinnitus than usual so I took 1/4 of the ativan (so approx .25 mg) right in the morning and keep using the lemon oil all day.  I think I may have found an awesome way to cut back on benzos without so much hassle.

 

Negatives: putting the lemon oil on a cloth next to my pillow did not affect my sleep quality except in that I had crazy bad trip dreams that I remembered for most of the day (I never remember my dreams).   The next night I did the same thing with the cloth: more crazy dreams that I can remember for hours and hours after waking up.  


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#27 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:50 PM

Got the memantine today from Ceretropic.  As with most new drugs, I'm terrified of it because of my hypersensitivity.  I just finished sitting here for an hour reading about it to refresh my memory on it.

 

Took two drops, so I estimate I ingested no more than 2 mg.  20 drops roughly equals 1 mL depending on the kind of dropper it is, so assuming that, 1 drop = 0.05 mL,  0.125 mL memantine soln. =  2.5 mg memantine ... 2 drops = 0.1 mL ... I didn't write any of that down so hopefully I didn't bungle that too badly.

 

I didn't take any methylphenidate or lorazepam today.  Or yesterday.  Just the usual bupropion and my vitamins, aminos.   Still on this new essential oil kick, and I added lemongrass, rosemary to the mix.

 

I have to do some math soon; I have been procrastinating during summer break, so we'll see if I go full retard.



#28 Major Legend

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:59 PM

You probably won't feel anything on 2mg.



#29 Duchykins

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:24 AM

I'm a little sleepy right now.  Don't notice any change in mood or something like that. 

 

I put the calculator down, I'm just going to watch a movie and chill out now.



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#30 Duchykins

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:49 AM

Took two more drops a while ago.

 

Compressed feeling in chest, suppressed breathing, very temporary and intermittent brain fogginess from simply not breathing deeply enough, jaw tension ... feels like my usual reaction to cholinergics.  Except for a few brain zaps, which is rare for me.  

 

But this worsened a tiny bit after my evening bupropion dose, so it could simply be anxiety.  Yet at the same time, I am not getting the level of irritability and exacerbated vigilance I normally experience with anxiety.  I emphasized exacerbated because that was not to say my hypervigilance was banished, I am literally hypervigilant at baseline, always, and have been since at least my early teens (only say that because I don't remember much before that).  Still watchful for danger, unfortunately.  I'm 33 now and don't think I'll ever be cured of it.

 

My mind is actually being quiet during all of this, even though I am still aware of all this sensory information and my environment, which it the most unusual of all since it's never quiet when I'm mellowed by ativan or even ambien.  That's part of the reason I finally consented to taking ativan in the first place, because it won't slow me down at school.  

 

So there were brief periods where I stared at the wall and nothing crossed my mind, which I'm not sure I'm wholly comfortable with.  There also is a warmth in my head and chest that is reminiscent of how hydrocodone or tramadol feels (weird).

 

I still haven't taken any ativan today, so that's two days without any, which is not really advisable if you'd been taking .5 mg almost daily for a good while; even though it's a low dose, it's still enough to require a proper taper.  It's entirely probable that the memantine is not bothering me.  I'm still not going to take any ativan today because I'll be taking 10 mg ambien and off to sleep in a few hours.  Will take .25 mg ativan tomorrow.

 

 







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