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How can I get someone that I care about interested in cryonics?

cryonics interest

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#1 HealthyLiving

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 03:11 PM


Hi.

 

I need help with this. How can I get someone that I care about interested in cryonics?

 

Thank you for answering.

 



#2 Antonio2014

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 07:56 AM

It depends on the person (does he has a terminal disease? is he interested in science? is he open to new ideas? has he a high education?).


Edited by Antonio2014, 30 July 2015 - 07:57 AM.


#3 elfanjo

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 08:19 AM

I find ci faq helpfull:
http://www.cryonics.org/about-us/faqs

#4 HealthyLiving

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 03:22 PM

It depends on the person (does he has a terminal disease? is he interested in science? is he open to new ideas? has he a high education?).

 

Terminal discease = no

Science = yes, to some extent.

To some degree open to new ideas.

 

Yes, he has a couple of years of high education.

 

I showed him a  description of cryonics  (this one:

http://alcor.org/Abo...nics/index.html "What is Cryonics?")

 

However, we seemed a bit sceptical and claimed that it was some people that just wanted to make

some money.

 

Again, thanks for answering guys :)


I find ci faq helpfull:
http://www.cryonics.org/about-us/faqs

 

Thanks for the link.

 

However, I didnt find how to increase interest there.



#5 Danail

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 07:14 PM

Tell him to believe in things, that can be build and developed.



#6 YOLF

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 02:13 AM

Well I disagree that one needs to have a high degree of education to like cryonics... though most of us do, there are exceptions and everyone has a college degree of some sort these days. There are alot of reasons to be skeptical... I haven't seen anything more than dreaming coming out of the cryonics industry for a while and we really haven't had much in the way of advances... we're just waiting for someone else to fix things. We need to develop the tech more continuously and give more education and opportunities for future cryonicists who will carry the torch. We're making a fairly bad example about how people develop the tech of the future. It's something we definitely need to fix. Getting active and demanding further and faster development and proof that we can make this work may help your friend accept the possibility. Otherwise it's a lot of money being left in the care of people who haven't shown much in way of advancing the technology in the last few decades. We need to show regular results on the schedule of a pharmaceutical company and do fundraisers calling attention to what we're doing and getting people passionate about it before anyone is going to accept it. The best option is to live for as long as possible and to get as smart as possible so you can make as much of this happen as possible. No one is going to do this for us, the leadership is dependent on your contributions to the science and those in power tend to be pretty old. We all need to be working towards the solution if we can. Motivation is what you need the most to get your friend on board. Without that we aren't going anywhere... there just aren't enough people raising a hand to develop new tech. It seems like just a few people getting involved and those that do start getting involved always get distracted by magic tricks that never take us anywhere. We need to become the scientists and makers of a new cryonics that is more attractive and can show regular success and development. 

 

 

 


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#7 Antonio2014

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:01 AM

Here is a good summary of why cryonics will work: http://www.benbest.c...stification.pdf (PDF)

 

And here is a discussion of the more common objections to cryonics: http://www.benbest.c...cs/debates.html

 

And here (at the bottom of the page) are pointers to the seminal papers that demonstrated that some aspect of cryonics works: http://www.evidenceb...er-on-cryonics/


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#8 elfanjo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 06:44 PM

I am in the process of doing pretty much the same thing.
Cryonics is something weird to most people. I'd try to overcome the main objections one might have beforehand
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#9 HealthyLiving

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 08:10 PM

Thanks a bunch guys.

 

It seems like the biggest obstacle for him to sign up is that he thinks that cryonics is just another way for people to make money.

 

Any tips on how to overcome this one? :)



#10 elfanjo

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 08:16 PM

I might be mistaken but I think alcor and cryonics institute are both non-profits.

If thats all thats pulling him back now you must have done fine :)
I hope I'll do as well as you did!

Out of curiosity where are you guys planning to sign up?
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#11 Antonio2014

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:30 PM

Thanks a bunch guys.

 

It seems like the biggest obstacle for him to sign up is that he thinks that cryonics is just another way for people to make money.

 

Any tips on how to overcome this one? :)

 

http://www.benbest.c...FAQ.html#_IIIG_

 

III-G. Are people in the cryonics business making lots of money ?

No, most staff are volunteers or are poorly/modestly paid. Directors on the Boards of cryonics organizations receive no pay at all. Most people working for cryonics organizations do so because they want to be cryopreserved themselves. Cryonicists are building their own lifeboats. Although large amounts of money are received when a person is cryopreserved, some of the money must be used for cryopreservation expenses and most of the money must be held in trust for the cryonics patient so that income from principal can pay for long-term storage.

 

Also, although Alcor and the Cryonics Institute only admit payment by insurance, Kriorus admits direct payment. So, he doesn't need to sign a contract now, he can wait until he has a terminal disease or he is old.


Edited by Antonio2014, 31 July 2015 - 11:40 PM.


#12 HealthyLiving

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 02:13 PM

Talked to him again now.

 

This time his two obstacles form trying it were the following:

 

1) This looks like some fantasi that doesnt seem to work.

 

2) If cryonics did work then when waking up, the person that woke up would feel like the person didnt belong and feel alinated. Because nothing was the same after waking up 70 years after.

 

 



#13 Antonio2014

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:03 PM

1) Is already answered above.

 

2) Does he really think that the alternative is better? (being dead)


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#14 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 06:17 AM

I have the same problem of "getting" my parents "to care" about cryonics. I don't think, that it is possible to get some one, who has decided, that this is a crap and a fraud. I tried everything, no result. 



#15 YOLF

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 07:53 AM

The technology just has to be advanced... we need more frequent results.


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#16 Antonio2014

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 08:48 AM

The technology just has to be advanced... we need more frequent results.

 

You can contribute to the Brain Preservation Technology Prize with some bucks.



#17 HealthyLiving

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:32 AM

1) Is already answered above.

 

2) Does he really think that the alternative is better? (being dead)

 

Thank you.

 

Anymore suggestions on how to overcome the followoing obstacles:

 

1) This looks like some fantasi that doesnt seem to work.

 

2) If cryonics did work then when waking up, the person that woke up would feel like the person didnt belong and feel alinated. Because nothing was the same after waking up 70 years after.



#18 YOLF

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:37 AM

 

 

The technology just has to be advanced... we need more frequent results.

 

You can contribute to the Brain Preservation Technology Prize with some bucks.

 

 

 

Sounds interesting. Is brain copying for AIs a part of their philosophy? That's something I think is a morally wrong idea as it creates a new person saddled with the memories, experience etc or original who is really just dead.


Edited by YOLF, 02 August 2015 - 09:39 AM.


#19 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:09 AM

 

1) Is already answered above.

 

2) Does he really think that the alternative is better? (being dead)

 

Thank you.

 

Anymore suggestions on how to overcome the followoing obstacles:

 

1) This looks like some fantasi that doesnt seem to work.

 

2) If cryonics did work then when waking up, the person that woke up would feel like the person didnt belong and feel alinated. Because nothing was the same after waking up 70 years after.

 

 

For the cryonics so far, there are no experimental evidences, that it will work out. Purely scientifically, this means, that cryonics (differing from cryobiology) is not a science at this stage of its development. The ordinary people know that, as "so far no one has been frozen and unfrozen alive". So, in order someone to be keen of the cryonics, that person certainly has to have a dose of belief. The only way to tackle the unbelief is to increase the belief :) As in previous answer, tell them to believe in things, that can be developed. And in the science specifically. Tell them, that science developes, one thing goeas after another, and more and more things become possible. This is why sooner or later everything will be possible via the science, including will be possible for them to be refrozen, revived and immortalized in the distant future. The key is they to stay cryopreserved long enough. 

 


Edited by seivtcho, 02 August 2015 - 11:11 AM.

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#20 elfanjo

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 01:36 PM

Belief and hope. Once burried or cremated all hope is gone

#21 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:01 AM

Sounds interesting. Is brain copying for AIs a part of their philosophy?

 

AFAIK, no. The prize is as they describe it in that link.

 

It seems that current cryonics organizations aren't much interested in the prize, because they think (rightly) that you don't need perfect preservation for cryonics to work, only information-theoretical preservation (that is, that no information is lost, even if neurons are mangled, distorted, shrunk, etc.; if the connections are preserved, all is ok, because nanomachines can repair the mess). I think they are right, but nevertheless, I think that perfect preservation is better for marketing, and it will make thawing easier, perhaps making reanimation possible in this century instead of XXII or XXIII century.



#22 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:03 AM

For the cryonics so far, there are no experimental evidences, that it will work out.

 

 

Surely there are! Read the papers linked above.



#23 YOLF

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 10:37 AM

 

For the cryonics so far, there are no experimental evidences, that it will work out.

 

 

Surely there are! Read the papers linked above.

 

 

There are some papers, but the evidence is limited, and no whole mammals as far AFAIAA. More needs to be shown, starting with more details on what is and isn't preserved so we can come up with better preservation strategies... We really need to discover what the current processes do and don't so we can improve it. We know a little bit about what it does, but nothing either way on what it doesn't. 



#24 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 12:29 PM

That and "there are no experimental evidences" or "cryonics is not a science" are very different things.

 

A mouse kidney has been cryonized, thawed and transplanted without problems. What separates this from human reanimation is engineering, not science. Likewise, manned Mars missions don't need to be scientifically demonstrated, they are clearly scientifically possible. What is needed is to develop the related engineering.



#25 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:26 PM

Even though, yet, there are no people successfully cryopreserved and thawed alive. 



#26 Ark

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:04 PM

Last resort you can freeze yourself in front of their eyes.

In all seriousness you should mention it and test the interest level, if interested tell them in increments. If they aren't I'd just back off and forget about it.

#27 YOLF

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 12:02 PM

That and "there are no experimental evidences" or "cryonics is not a science" are very different things.

 

A mouse kidney has been cryonized, thawed and transplanted without problems. What separates this from human reanimation is engineering, not science. Likewise, manned Mars missions don't need to be scientifically demonstrated, they are clearly scientifically possible. What is needed is to develop the related engineering.

 

They did the procedure a bunch of times and one of them succeeded. Not all of them.. it's still not known what made this one work and all the rest of them fail. That rabbit might have had some mutation the rest didn't. It's hard to tell. Maybe they put the same kidney back in that they took back out without knowing it... too much can be wrong with a one off result like this... we need more and this isn't nearly enough. More will need to be done.



#28 Antonio2014

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:31 PM

They did the procedure a bunch of times and one of them succeeded.

False. They did the procedure with different perfusion pressures, to see which one works better. Only one additional rabbit was perfused with the same pressure as the successful one. That is a 50% success rate, not one on a buch.

 

 

it's still not known what made this one work and all the rest of them fail.

 

False again. It's pressure. Read the paper before critizicing the experiment. They said it on the 2nd page.

 

 

That rabbit might have had some mutation the rest didn't. It's hard to tell.

 

Yeah, it's hard to tell when you don't read the paper.

 

 

Maybe they put the same kidney back in that they took back out without knowing it...

 

Or maybe you didn't read the part when they say that all the trasplants were autotrasplants. It's the same page and paragraph as above.

 

Also, two points:

 

(1) The failure of the kidneys were due to imperfect devitrification, not vitrification. Ice appeared in some zones while warming the kidney. So, this doesn't mean that current vitrification procedures in humans are wrong and thus cryonics is useless. They only mean that we can't safely devitrify a human yet (but all the people in cryonics organizations know that).

 

(2) Even if devitrification failure rate were high in this paper, you don't really expect the first stages of a new technology development to be perfect, don't you?


Edited by Antonio2014, 06 August 2015 - 06:33 PM.

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#29 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 05:29 PM

Antonio, I think, that you are simply a big believer :) Which is not bad. Simply as YOLF wrote, a lot of work is still needed :( Lets hope, that when our time comes, cryonics will be standart and possible... 


Edited by seivtcho, 07 August 2015 - 05:30 PM.


#30 Antonio2014

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 07:00 AM

Wow, I put a lot of arguments and scientific papers to refute plain lies, and your conclusion is that I'm a believer.

 

What a waste of time.


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