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Safely Boosting Dopamine/glutamate/norepinephrine?

dopamine neurotransmitter fatigue norephinephrine tyrosine 5htp

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#1 illuminatus104

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 06:29 PM


Recently got back reuslts from a neurotransmitter (urine) test, along with cortisol and DHEA. I've been experiencing significant fatigue and things that come with it for about 15 months now. Started really trying to heal about 3 months ago. This specific test was taken 3 weeks ago. Here are some of the notable results (had 12 different NTs tested)

 

Glutamate was low (14.4 uMol/gCr) ref range 10.3 - 78.1

Dopamine was low (85.0 ug/gCr) ref range 72 - 297.2

Norepinephrine was low (18.0 ug/gCr) ref range 15-74.8

 

Some other NTs on the low end were GABA, Histamine, PEA. These were not as low as the other 3, but still low in the range in my opinion.

DHEA was 50.5 pg/mL, ref range 23.8 - 308.8

Cortisol is within normal range throughout the day, but spikes around bedtime

Testosterone has been low (around 220 nG/dL)

Thyroid has been functioning poorly (taking half a grain of Armour and 6.25 mg Iodine daily). Last blood work showed TSH at 3.5 (just bumped up the iodine dose from 3 to 6.25), T3 112, T4 87, and RT3 was a reasonable number that I don't remember. Autoimmune tests came back negative the one time I had them done.

 

I have done some experimentation and the most noticable improvement came with 3g of L-Tyrosine (taken with a bioactive B complex, empty stomach). I feel normal for 3-4 hours with this dose of Tyrosine. It's great; socializing is easy, work is easy, confidence is through the roof. I can do anything, I feel the best I've felt in my life. However, there is enough debate about long term L-Tyrosine usage to deter me from furthur experimentation (I've been doing it for 4 days so I'm not worried about any serious damage at this point). The irritability isn't nice and I'm not sure about the safety of using 5htp or tryptophan for long periods either.

So, how can I safetly increase the levels of these NTs? Like I said, 3g of Tyrosine made me feel normal but I'm not comfortable with this. I'm not sure where to start. Fix hormones first? Or fix NTs first? Am I missing something essential in my diet? I eat very good (in my opinion). The nurse I saw (functional medicine) said I need to take in more tyrosine from foods. I'm not sure this will be enough.

 

 

I can pay for good help. The nurse I see is way too expensive for the relatively little information she offers. PM for this

 

 

 

Almost forgot...any thoughts on Mucuna Pruriens + Stinging nettle?


Edited by illuminatus104, 09 August 2015 - 06:30 PM.


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Posted 11 August 2015 - 06:17 AM

some info on "debate about long term L-Tyrosine usage"?



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#3 gamesguru

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 02:18 PM

 Ginkgo, green tea, ginseng, and bacopa have interesting properties ...

In vitro Effect of Ginkgo biloba Extract (EGb 761) on the Activity of Presynaptic Cholinergic Nerve Terminals in Rat Hippocampus

http://www.karger.co...Abstract/106599

 

Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb761®) influences monoaminergic neurotransmission via inhibition of NE uptake, but not MAO activity after chronic treatment

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1043661809000619

 

Effects of an extract of Ginkgo Biloba on noradrenergic systems of rat cerebral cortex

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031698985901122

 

The Ginkgo biloba extract EGb 761® and its main constituent flavonoids and ginkgolides increase extracellular dopamine levels in the rat prefrontal cortex

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1043661809000619

 

Effects of green tea polyphenols on dopamine uptake and on MPP+ -induced dopamine neuron injury.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12495785

 

The effect of panax ginseng on norepinephrine levels of whole brain and hypothalamus during stress [lowers elevated levels, perhaps also heightens suppressed levels]

http://www.ijp-onlin...acharyya;type=0

------

Neuroprotective potential of Bacoside A against dopamine receptor dysfunction in the cerebral cortex

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23975094

 

Bacopa Monniera: anti-dopaminergic effect in frontal cortex [P.S. improves male performance, but it isn't all good: causes lethargy in the healthy, blunts effects of cannabis and alcohol]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24497742

Glutamate ...

Epigallocatechin gallate, the most active polyphenolic catechin in green tea, presynaptically facilitates Ca2+-dependent glutamate release via activation of protein kinase C in rat cerebral cortex.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17663453

 

Epicatechin gallate increases glutamate uptake

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18066651

 

Epicatechin up-regulates GluR2 in cortical neurons

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17298385

 

Ginseng derivative ocotillol enhances neuronal activity through increased glutamate release: a possible mechanism underlying increased spontaneous locomotor activity of mice

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21864652

 

Ginkgo extract EGb761 confers neuroprotection by reduction of glutamate release in ischemic brain

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22365091

 

Grape seed proanthocyanidin extract inhibits glutamate-induced cell death through inhibition of calcium signals and nitric oxide formation

www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/12/78

 

Antagonistic effects of extract from leaves of ginkgo biloba on glutamate neurotoxicity

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10072919

 

Extract of Ginkgo biloba induces glutamate cysteine ligase catalytic subunit (GCLC)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18167050

 

Effects of gingko biloba extract on glutamate-induced [Ca2+]i changes in cultured cortical astrocytes after hypoxia/reoxygenation, H2O2 or L-glutamate injury

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15952591

 

Curcumin inhibits glutamate release in nerve terminals from rat prefrontal cortex: possible relevance to its antidepressant mechanism

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21741425

 

Curcumin inhibits glutamate release from rat prefrontal nerve endings by affecting vesicle mobilization

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22942754

 

GABA helps regulate glutamate ...

Bacopa Increases GABA Receptor Functionality in the Hippocampus
http://www.wellnessr..._functionality/

GABA receptor density in the cerebral cortex: effect of Bacoside-A
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3306740/

GABA receptor functional regulation in the hippocampus of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821261

------

Zinc Inhibits Miniature GABAergic Currents by Allosteric Modulation of GABAA Receptor Gating
http://www.jneurosci...3/8618.full.pdf

Zinc-mediated inhibition of GABA(A) receptors: discrete binding sites underlie subtype specificity
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12640458

Magnesium-induced anxiolytic-like effects involve benzodiazepine/GABA(A) receptors
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18799816

Ionic Glutamate Modulators in Depression (Zinc, Magnesium)
http://link.springer...3-0346-0241-9_2

Magnesium attenuates regional cerebral edema following brain injury: roles of glutamate release inhibitor and sodium channel blocker
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7830074

NMDA/glutamate mechanism of magnesium-induced anxiolytic-like effect
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19066411

------

Magnolol of Lemon Balm enhances pentobarbital-induced sleeping behaviors and increases GABA(A) alpha receptor subunit density
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19165750

Anxiolytic-like effects of 4-O-methylhonokiol of Lemon Balm via enhancement of GABAergic transmission and chloride influx
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21501091

 

The NMDA receptor may have some relevance to glutamate/GABA, and exercise contributes to balanced NMDARs ...

Effects of exercise on NMDA receptor subunit contributions to bidirectional synaptic plasticity in the mouse dentate gyrus

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17879376

 

Effect of exercise training on long-term potentiation and NMDA receptor channels in rats with cerebral infarction

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3829711/

 

Treadmill exercise enhances NMDA receptor expression in mice

http://www.e-jer.org...mber=2013600095


Edited by gamesguru, 11 August 2015 - 02:39 PM.

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#4 illuminatus104

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 02:31 PM

some info on "debate about long term L-Tyrosine usage"?

 

 

 

Long term use of L-Tyrosine and/or Phenylalanine is not recommended, since these items can increase the risk of skin cancer (Melanoma) if used regularly and in high doses. If you have many moles, then you are at increased risk of Melanoma, and should probably cool it with L-Tyrosine/Phenylalanine. Another item that increases Melanoma risk is Sulfites. These increase Tyrosine by inhibiting Tyrosinase. Increased ACTH also increases Melanoma risk, since it upregulates Melanin Stimulating Hormone (MSH), which simulates Melanoma growth.

If you do take L-Tyrosine/Phenylalanine regularly because you need a little boost, it is recommended that you count the number of moles on your body (e.g. stomach area) and place this data in your notebook, and update at 1 to 3mth intervals. If you see your mole count go up, you should consider cooling it with the L-Tyrosine/Phenylalanine. Things that decrease Tyrosine, and therefore decrease Melanoma risk, are P5P, vitamin E, vitamin C, and low dose NAC (e.g. 50 to 300mg/day).

 

 

 

also, user biofreak posted this http://www.longecity...tp/#entry585715

maybe someone could debunk if it isn't the case. but I hear what he is saying. 5htp and tyrosine are not exact mirrors. It helps with dopamine/serotonin balancing, but they have other unique effects which are not negated by the other. so high dosing either would have an imbalancing effect somewhere.

 

 


Been there, done that. Don't worry about 5-htp with b6, its theoretical and there is no actual evidence that it is problematic (but there should be cause many products combine b6 with 5-htp).

BUT...

You are going a dangerous route there.

5-htp will deplete catecholamines.
so you add tyrosine.
tyrosine will deplete sulfur. (VERY bad. not only will it deplete enzymes needed for catecholamine synthesis, it will also deplete glutathione which means increased risk for alzheimers, parkinson, cancer,...)
so you need to add l-cysteine (not nac, but you can take that in addition).
cysteine binds to heavy metals, which is a good thing, but those new formed molecules are able to penetrate the bbb, which is a bad thing.
so you need to add selenium and zinc(my addition) to chelate possible heavy metal accumulation in the brain.
you can also deplete cofactors, so you have to take them too. (b6, b12, folate)
if you don't, you will most likely elevate homocysteine. not good.

So basically, to be successful with 5-htp, you need whole stack of supplements so you don't deplete and/or wreck your body.

Sources:
Studies:
http://www.neurosupport.com/
Look at the studies on the left.
Anectodal:
Been there, done that, needed all of that to migrate side effects of 5-htp.

And since 5-htp does nothing else then elevate serotonin in the brain, it is similar to any ssri that increases serotonin in the brain by the same amount, while it does that (ssris may deplete serotonin long term, then, effects and side effects will drecrease too). Meaning if you increase serotonin as much with 5-htp as you did with an ssri, the side effects should be the same. Some of these come because of depletion of catecholamines(i.e. loss of focus, impotence, loss of libido(partly), others will stay, no matter what you do, because they are simply a direct effect of increased serotonin.

EDIT: Just saw you are linking to one of the studies mentioned above anyways. Still, you need to be very careful and follow their protocol. Unfortunately, their guide for practitioners is no longer online, it showed exactly how the standard procedure is (before taking urine samples and adjusting dosage, if the first 3 stages were not successful).

Let me repeat again. Unless you add everything in proper dosage, not only 5-htp, tyrosine, and a b complex, you will suffer the consequences long term.

 


Edited by illuminatus104, 11 August 2015 - 02:34 PM.

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#5 illuminatus104

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 02:35 PM

 

 Ginkgo, green tea, ginseng, and bacopa have interesting properties ...

 

 

 

The ginko looks interesting. I'll look into that one more, thanks!



#6 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 07:40 AM

A urine test for the vast majority of these NTs is useless. It's like measuring serotonin in the blood. It represents nothing, as it does not cross the BBB. The exception is a metanephrine urine test. Metanephrines are the breakdown products of norepinephrine and epinephrine, and can give you some insight into the actual levels of these NTs. But it seems like, unfortunately, you did not get this test. I would not base anything on this urine test.

Instead, what symptoms are you dealing with?


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#7 illuminatus104

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:41 PM

A urine test for the vast majority of these NTs is useless. It's like measuring serotonin in the blood. It represents nothing, as it does not cross the BBB. The exception is a metanephrine urine test. Metanephrines are the breakdown products of norepinephrine and epinephrine, and can give you some insight into the actual levels of these NTs. But it seems like, unfortunately, you did not get this test. I would not base anything on this urine test.

Instead, what symptoms are you dealing with?

 

Fatigue and all things with it. Difficulty sleeping, poor memory, weakness, ect...3g of Tyrosine makes me feel normal



#8 Junk Master

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 03:21 PM

That late night Cortisol spike is what needs to be dealt with IMO.  Stay away from any strong artificial light.  You could try the adaptogen route-- Ash etc...but I'd be a little concerned with those types of herbs at night as well.  Long term, meditation and CBT are great, but that's long term.  I'm not familiar with any short acting Cortisol reducing medications, prescription, or "research" chem, so maybe someone else could chime in.

 

Good Luck!

 

 



#9 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 03:53 PM

 

A urine test for the vast majority of these NTs is useless. It's like measuring serotonin in the blood. It represents nothing, as it does not cross the BBB. The exception is a metanephrine urine test. Metanephrines are the breakdown products of norepinephrine and epinephrine, and can give you some insight into the actual levels of these NTs. But it seems like, unfortunately, you did not get this test. I would not base anything on this urine test.

Instead, what symptoms are you dealing with?

 

Fatigue and all things with it. Difficulty sleeping, poor memory, weakness, ect...3g of Tyrosine makes me feel normal

 

That may well be the case. But that would be a coincidence, not a result of acting upon, sorry to say, mostly useless information. Where did you get these tests done?

If Tyrosine helps, L-DOPA + EGCG might help even more.



#10 illuminatus104

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 04:06 PM

 

 

A urine test for the vast majority of these NTs is useless. It's like measuring serotonin in the blood. It represents nothing, as it does not cross the BBB. The exception is a metanephrine urine test. Metanephrines are the breakdown products of norepinephrine and epinephrine, and can give you some insight into the actual levels of these NTs. But it seems like, unfortunately, you did not get this test. I would not base anything on this urine test.

Instead, what symptoms are you dealing with?

 

Fatigue and all things with it. Difficulty sleeping, poor memory, weakness, ect...3g of Tyrosine makes me feel normal

 

That may well be the case. But that would be a coincidence, not a result of acting upon, sorry to say, mostly useless information. Where did you get these tests done?

If Tyrosine helps, L-DOPA + EGCG might help even more.

 

 

Pharmasan Labs, the recommendation came by way of a functional medicine nurse. I'll have to look into the validity of the tests. It was quite expensive, and that's not including what I paid to see the nurse. I suppose this is my tuition; I plan on working in the health field for a long time.

 

 

I'm waiting for a trusted site to restock mucuna pruriens for the LDopa. Have an opinion on MP? I'll see if there is any egcg at work and look into it.

 

 

Thanks for the thoughts
 


Edited by illuminatus104, 13 August 2015 - 04:08 PM.


#11 illuminatus104

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 04:08 PM

That late night Cortisol spike is what needs to be dealt with IMO.  Stay away from any strong artificial light.  You could try the adaptogen route-- Ash etc...but I'd be a little concerned with those types of herbs at night as well.  Long term, meditation and CBT are great, but that's long term.  I'm not familiar with any short acting Cortisol reducing medications, prescription, or "research" chem, so maybe someone else could chime in.

 

Good Luck!

 

Already doing plenty of adaptogens. I'm using magnolia bark and phosphatidylserine for cortisol reduction. Not in a huge habit of meditating, but it's always improving.

 

Thank you sir


Edited by illuminatus104, 13 August 2015 - 04:08 PM.


#12 Junk Master

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:08 PM

Do you have a "normal" Cortisol spike in the morning?

 

I'm always interested in the relationship between Cortisol levels and the type of symptoms you describe because I have an older teenage son on the Austic (used to be Asperger's) Spectrum, and teen males with ASD lack a Cortisol surge upon awakening.  I've always suspected they (myself included) instead have a Cortisol spike at night, which, especially over time contributes to poor sleep architecture and exacerbates symptoms.

 

I really wonder if low dose hydrocortisone, no more than 5-10mg, in the morning would provide you with significant relief.

 

I take Magnolia Bark now, and have used high doses of phosphatidylserine in the past (while bodybuilding).  The jury is still out on the Magnolia Bark but it's thumbs down for the phosphatidylserine for me.



#13 zorba990

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 09:26 PM

3g Tyrosine with 3g arginine (now as AKG) on 12 weeks workout days only, or more and off for a month at a time for over 30yrs n=1 here. Still very good gh and igf levels which is why I take it. Occasionally I have noticed some increase in anger on 'on' days but no bad long term effects I can notice. I have some concern it might precipitate melanoma but I have not seen any increase in dark pigmented spots.

Edited by zorba990, 13 August 2015 - 09:27 PM.


#14 illuminatus104

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 01:49 PM

Do you have a "normal" Cortisol spike in the morning?

 

I'm always interested in the relationship between Cortisol levels and the type of symptoms you describe because I have an older teenage son on the Austic (used to be Asperger's) Spectrum, and teen males with ASD lack a Cortisol surge upon awakening.  I've always suspected they (myself included) instead have a Cortisol spike at night, which, especially over time contributes to poor sleep architecture and exacerbates symptoms.

 

I really wonder if low dose hydrocortisone, no more than 5-10mg, in the morning would provide you with significant relief.

 

I take Magnolia Bark now, and have used high doses of phosphatidylserine in the past (while bodybuilding).  The jury is still out on the Magnolia Bark but it's thumbs down for the phosphatidylserine for me.

 

Cortisol is normal in AM.

 

What would hydrocortisone do?



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#15 kurdishfella

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 02:55 AM

dopamine and b vitamins made my skin light. cortisol n igf did opposite





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