7 replies to this topic

[Le Cafe]

ZMA seriously helps me get better rest. The magnesium helps me relax about an hour after I take it, I go peacefully to bed and wake up feeling awesome - as though I got noticeably deeper, better quality sleep. I've thought a lot about the ingredients and why these 3 particular supplements work so well together. I'd like to break down the recipe and see about redesigning the formula so it's more focused in its approach.

 

Ingredients:

- Zinc Monomethionine Aspartate

- Magnesium Aspartate

- Vitamin B6 - in the form of Pyridoxine hydrochloride

 

Biological Role:

Zinc - supports immune system, maintains testosterone levels (increased muscle growth), increases growth hormone (heal tissue faster)

Magnesium - relaxes muscles and lowers inflammation so tissues can repair, improves levels of slow-wave deep sleep - improving the efficiency of some sleep cycles

B6 - I'm not exactly sure why B6 is in there. From what I understand B6 gives you energy and I'm guessing it helps the body repair itself faster while you're sleeping or acts as a precursor to other things. Might help production of serotonin? 

 

Thoughts:

- Zinc and Magnesium are both in aspartate forms - is this intentional? Does the aspartic acid serve a specific purpose for repairing the body physically or for helping the brain go through its sleep cycles? I've read it can help increase testosterone, but it's also potentially neurotoxic. If you're not a body builder and you're primarily looking for the best quality sleep, staying away from aspartate might be healthier and could be replaced with something that's more beneficial.

- Some recipes add 5-HTP - Does this really help? Sometimes it left me feeling spacey in the morning and made it harder to fully wake up. I've taken l-tryptophan with better results but I don't think either are necessary.

 

Proposed Changes:

- Use Zinc L-MonoMethionine since it's the more bioavailable form of zinc and doesn't contain aspartate, which is potentially poisonous.

- Use Magnesium Glycinate because it's easily absorbed and the glycine molecule will also help with sleep. Glycine is even used as a prescription med for improving deep sleep. Glycine helps lower body temperature to relax the body into deeper sleep.

- Research the necessity of B6 and if it turns out to be beneficial use a better version, such as B6-P5P, in place of Pyridoxine HCl. 

 

Possible Additions:

- Agomelatine - Has been shown to resynchronize circadian rhythm through modulation of Melatonin 1A and 1B receptors. Has benefit of being a mild anti-depressant with barely any side effects. I take this and wake up feeling much more refreshed in a very natural, energetic, happy way. It's very subtle, but does the job. 

- Cordyceps - Increases the bloods capacity to store oxygen which generally relaxes people (same with yawning to take a deep breath and take in more oxygen). Good for people who have sleep apnea as it keeps more oxygen in your blood even if you aren't breathing as well. Makes sure muscles are getting generous amounts of oxygen and can clean out the lactic acid (or other waste products) and repair themselves. Proven to improve sleep in general.

- Phosphatidylserine - Blocks cortisol and other stress hormones allowing your body and mind to relax, protects the hippocampus - improving short term memory and spatial thinking.

 

 

Any thoughts? I know ZMA is something that a lot of people use and benefit from. I'm hoping we can re-examine it and tweak a few things and get something that's even better.

 

Cory

 

[Le Cafe]

I've been taking:

400mg magnesium glycinate

50mg of a zinc (generic combo of Zinc Gluconate, Oxide, and Aspartate)

500mg l-tryptophan

30mg agomelatine 

 

Changes I'm going to make:

Cut out the tryptophan because I wake up feeling too tired/foggy from the extra serotonin. (5-HTP did the same thing, l-tryptophan is more subtle though)

Get Zinc L-MonoMethionine and see how that compares

Get B6-P5P to see what affect the B6 has and see if it's synergetic with the zinc and magnesium. 

 

Overall I like the the magnesium glycinate better than the magnesium aspartate. When I wake up I feel more calm whereas the aspartate made me wake up feeling more tense and jittery, as though my brain was already being stimulated. I think some people confuse this with feeling rested and refreshed. The agomelatine helps a lot to keep my sleep cycles consistent and I think it's a good addition. 

 

The reason I'm looking further into this is because of how important quality sleep can be. I'm convinced that our bodies need different vitamins at night than they do in the morning or the middle of the day. I'd like to get the benefits of these vitamins/supplements without the potential toxicity of aspartame, especially when he glycine in place of it could end up being more beneficial. 

 

Cory

[Le Cafe]

Can someone explain why my posts are being labeled as "Pointless, Timewasting"? Should I go and label other posts that I don't think are as interesting with the same thing? Is this not a place to discuss supplements and research chemicals and the ways we use them to change the way our bodies and minds function? Other people who post about taking magnesium, glycine, agomelatine, or other supplements that alter their sleep don't receive the same marks. Just because I'm not shooting dihexa and NSI-189 into my brain using needles doesn't mean the experiments I'm doing are a waste and it doesn't mean they won't be of interest to other people in the future who have similar questions.

[Dolph]

It may be because the whole "idea" behind ZMA has been exposed as a scam a decade ago and there are still some people around who don't get that? If this isn't a waste of time I don't know what could be...

[Dolph]

What a prime example for the degree of foolishness that this forum stands for...

[Le Cafe]

So this is actually interesting to me. The reason I use ZMA is because I was constantly waking up feeling exhausted and terrible and a friend gave me a bottle to try and it had a strong and noticeable affect on my quality of sleep. So much so that I gave a few to my dad and now he uses it, and my ex-girlfriend tried it a few times and now she uses it too. I've given them to other friends and they've said they've gotten better sleep from ZMA. My average quality of sleep is so bad that I've been discussing it with doctors and am looking into getting a sleep study done to see if it's sleep apnea or some other issue with my brain not going through the proper sleep cycles.

 

It's also possible that my body doesn't properly absorb certain vitamins and the extra magnesium and zinc help, whereas a person who is able to better absorb vitamins in their diet might not get much of a benefit from it. Also, most of the studies done were in regards to athletes training, measuring muscle mass and endurance, which maybe it absolutely doesn't work for that, but I'm more interested in quality of sleep and how I feel in the morning after taking it versus mornings when I don't take anything. It's a different approach to what ZMA is and what its intended purpose is, which is why I named the thread "Reapproaching ZMA".

 

I'm interested in supplements or research chemicals that improve a persons quality of sleep so that they wake up feeling mentally and physically refreshed. If anyone has anything that they've tried that works for them, or that they've tried and found doesn't work, feel free to share. There are a lot of research chemicals that people discuss (tianeptine, dihexa, nsi-189) to help them function during the day, but we rarely talk about what we take to function better when we're sleeping. All I wanted to do was learn more about how we can improve the sleeping part of our life, since we spend about a third of our life in that state. And what's the point of spending hundreds of dollars on things that improve your mental capacity when you're awake if you're getting terrible sleep to being with. I feel like these are legitimate questions that maybe haven't been presented in this way before. 

[IWS]

B6 is for absorption and utilization of zinc and mag, 50mg of zinc is too much above all on the long run, you should keep it on 15~20, ornithine can help for the sleep issue, from 500mg up to 2gr, start low and see how you react, vit. C could help with the absorption

[Le Cafe]

I think you're right about the zinc, I'm going to bring that down. Magnesium glycinate makes me sleep too deep for too long - I've found I wake up feeling tired and too relaxed instead of refreshed. I don't think the zinc or magnesium are what give ZMA the refreshed feeling in the morning, making me think it's the aspartate that's causing that. I'm still cautious about aspartate, but maybe with the magnesium it isn't as excitotoxic. I'll look into ornithine.