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What sort of timespan does it take to increase dopamine receptor densities?

dopamine receptor density depression

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#1 Wingless

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 02:17 AM


I have reason to suspect my near life-long depression is due to low levels of dopamine.

 

I have historically noticed consistent signs of low dopamine activity (ie apathy, adhd, dulled pleasure response). I think the strongest sign, however, is that I've always relished in stimulating, high-risk or high-sensation activities (ie dangerous driving, fights, rollar coasters, horror movies)

 

As I practice I've been constantly avoiding sugary foods, porn, any dopaminergic substances, while also meditating, lifting weights, and eating clean.

 

My question is what sort of timeline are we looking at in regards to long-term changes in receptor densities?


Edited by Wingless, 14 August 2015 - 02:21 AM.


#2 gamesguru

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 03:41 AM

Well if the depression is genetic in origin and you're doing nothing to address the core of the issue, then it will never resolve itself.  Just a regular, healthy lifestyle won't necessarily correct a genetic receptor imbalance/dysfunction.  Especially if you've been on this lifestyle for years, all the while hoping for improvement; I wouldn't expect more ROI after decades.  If it's only been a few months, keep it up for at least a year, you will notice a balancing/tonic effect from meditation, exercise&good diet, and abstaining from much of the bad.  Though increased D2/D3 striatal availability may not always be a good thing ([1][2]).

 

The dopamine D2 receptor gene and depressive and anxious symptoms in childhood

In vivo evidence for the involvement of dopamine-D2 receptors in striatum and anterior cingulate gyrus in major depression

 

One could go about finding safe substances which increase dopamine receptor availability ...

 

Bacopa improves alterations in D1, D2 receptor expression

Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb 761) modulates the expression of dopamine-related genes in MPTP-treated mice

      in higher doses it may be a dopaminergic agonist, and something to avoid: decreases induced-increase in D2 density

Caffeine increases striatal dopamine D2/D3 receptor availability in the human brain

Water Extract of Fructus Hordei Germinatus Shows Antihyperprolactinemia Activity via Dopamine D2 Receptor
significantly increased the expression of D2 receptors and DAT in PC12 cells

 

Dopamine D2 Receptor Expression Is Altered by Changes in Cellular Iron Levels

Retinoic Acid Regulates the Developmental Expression of Dopamine D2 Receptor in Rat Striatal Primary Cultures

 

pharms ...

Selective increase of dopamine D3 receptor gene expression as a common effect of chronic antidepressant treatments
Effect of antidepressant drugs on D2 receptor expression and dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens of the rat
 

 

some to avoid ...

Rimonabant increases striatal dopamine D2 receptor availability [but not risk of suicide]

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats

the behavioral effect was blocked by a selective DA D2 receptor (D2R) antagonist (eticlopride)

 

Effect of ginseng saponins on enhanced dopaminergic transmission and locomotor hyperactivity induced by nicotine

binding to DA D2 receptors


Edited by gamesguru, 14 August 2015 - 03:44 AM.

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#3 Baten

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 04:18 PM

So ginseng is to be avoided..?


Edited by Baten, 14 August 2015 - 04:18 PM.


#4 gamesguru

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 05:58 PM

One of ginsenosides in question was found to be a D2 agonist, so:

In hypodopaminergic people, chronic use is likely to worsen the problem.

In healthy people, I don't think it will be too much of a problem, unless used in large doses every day.

In cases of mental illness, reduced dopamine activity/receptor density could be desirable ([1][2]).

 

The study in my above post did find it prevented an induced dopamine release, but that's not a model that occurs in a healthy/normal person.

The results of the present study suggest that GTS acts not only on dopaminergic neurons directly or indirectly to prevent nicotine-induced DA release but also postsynaptically by binding to DA D2 receptors

 

It is like a double-edged sword, useful in the unhealthy: known to restore receptor supersensitivity to baseline ...

 

Modulatory effect of ginseng total saponin on dopamine release and tyrosine hydroxylase gene expression induced by nicotine in the rat

no effect on resting levels of extracelluar DA ... increase in accumbens DA release produced by systemic nicotine was completely blocked by systemic pre-treatment with GTS ... did not affect the basal TH mRNA expression, attenuated nicotine-induced TH mRNA expression

 

Inhibition by ginseng total saponin of the development of morphine reverse tolerance and dopamine receptor supersensitivity in mice

prevented the development of dopamine receptor supersensitivity induced by the chronic administration of morphine

 

Blockade by ginseng total saponin of the development of cocaine induced reverse tolerance and dopamine receptor supersensitivity in mice

reverse tolerance to the ambulation-accelerating effect of cocaine may be associated with the enhanced dopamine receptor sensitivity because both phenomena were blocked by GTS

 

Things are rarely simple.  For example cannabis reduces receptors in the striatum [1], but increases them in the nigrostriatal bundle and mesoaccumbens [2].  These areas are adjacent to the striatum, and probably try to compensate for the striatum's reduced input by increasing their own receptor expression, in other words the receptors in these two regions become supersensitized, which is not at all good.  It's forcing your body to adapt to a hyperexcited state, to find a new equilibrium/homeostasis.

The nigrostriatal bundle is involved in locomotion, and so receptor hypersensitivity in that region makes one particularly sensitive to the locomotion-enhancing effects of stimulants.

Chronic (−)-Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol treatment induces sensitization to the psychomotor effects of amphetamine in rats


Edited by gamesguru, 14 August 2015 - 06:00 PM.

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#5 NeuroNootropic

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 03:19 PM

 

So ginseng is to be avoided..?

 

 

In my experience Ginseng is a really good dopamine modulator. Taking Ginseng alone I feel somewhat more motivated and have a better mood, but taken with dopaminergic substances and whatever benefits I would normally get from that substance are gone. An example is Modafinil, taken with Ginseng I no longer feel the wakefulness, increased focus, better mood, nor increased cognition I usually get when taken alone.



#6 gamesguru

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 03:35 PM

For how many consecutive weeks were you taking it and feeling motivated and upbeat?

 

"increase in accumbens DA release produced by systemic nicotine was completely blocked"

dopamine release was blocked

 

"prevent nicotine-induced DA release but also postsynaptically by binding to DA D2 receptors"

prevents presynaptic induced dopamine release but also binds to postsynaptic D2 receptors

My question is relevant, of how many weeks you had taken ginseng, because it may take months for D2 tolerance/downregulation to set in.  So basically you could have just enjoyed a honeymoon phase.

Ginseng blunting modafinil is somewhat intuitive, because modafinil is is DRI [1] ...

 

Although, although the same was not true for cocaine, which is similarly a DRI ...

Effects of ginseng saponin on acute cocaine-induced alterations in evoked dopamine release and uptake in rat brain nucleus accumbens

Co-application of GTS with cocaine inhibited the release enhancement and subsequently prevented the rebound increase during acute withdrawal. The effect of GTS was concentration-dependent. In contrast, GTS had no significant effects on the cocaine-mediated DA uptake inhibition. These results suggest that the attenuation of the cocaine-induced enhancement of impulse-dependent DA release, rather than uptake inhibition, might be one of the pharmacological bases for attenuation of behavioral effects of cocaine and amelioration of acute withdrawal symptoms by ginseng.

Edited by gamesguru, 16 August 2015 - 03:43 PM.


#7 Major Legend

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 05:12 PM

Ginseng is complicated because it's active ingredients all have different effects, and the effect of ginseng is dependent on the year of harvest as well as the location of the extract, as well as the breed.

 

 I think timespan of something like it occurring only about 2 months after cessation of the agonist, and then very slowly over 2-3 years, it happens it bursts, you will hit these

plateaus and then seemingly not get better for a long time and then one day you will get better. I don't think it ever recovers 100% though. I do think some effects

of synaptic plasticity seems to be for life. I mean it makes sense if you think of the brain as photographic plastic, if you bend it enough it won't bend back completely. (This is a complete guess

from personal experience by the way)

 

If the cause is genetic then I don't think withdrawal from stimuli will fix the problem. Also dopamine isn't the only feel good and focusing chemical. It's possible that you have totally normal

dopamine levels with a genetic predisposition to risky behaviour and there is something else thats making you unable to easily feel happy or satisfied. E.g. hormones, other neurotransmitters,

metabolism etc.


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#8 Baten

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 06:06 PM

It sucks 'cause I love to take Korean ginseng. One thing it does: whenever I exercise I always start to yawn after a while, some people just can't stop yawning when they exercise. When I take ginseng however that tendency is completely gone! And I was under the impression that it had aphrodisiac properties according to some sources.

 

Oh well. Using it very sparingly shouldn't be too bad.



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#9 gamesguru

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 07:32 PM

Ginseng has many interesting qualities ...

 

a relationship to keep in mind ...

striatal BDNF expression may be altered by activation of dopamine receptors DR1 and DR2.142

---------

Effect of Panax ginseng on age-related changes in the spontaneous motor activity and dopaminergic nervous system in the rat

Concentrations of striatal dopamine D-2 receptors in old rats were significantly lower than that in young rats, although subchronic Panax ginseng did not affect the striatal D-1 and D-2 receptors of old rats. These results suggest that subchronic intake of ginseng extract inhibits the activity of nigro-striatal dopamine neurons in the daytime and activates spontaneous motor activity during the dark period in old rats, while it produces opposite effects in young rats.

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior

inhibited anxiety-like behavior and the over secretion of plasma CORT during EW. Furthermore, the behavioral effect was blocked by a selective DA D2 receptor (D2R) antagonist (eticlopride) but not by a selective DA D1 receptor (D1R) antagonist (SCH23390). HPLC analyses showed KRGE reversed EW-induced decreases of DA and DOPAC in a dose-dependent way. Additionally, Western blotting and real-time polymerase chain reaction (PCR) assays showed that KRGE prevented the EW-induced reductions in tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) protein expression in the CeA and TH mRNA expression in the ventral tegmental area (VTA)

---------

Ginseng (Rg5) up-regulates BDNF in rat cerebral cortex

https://books.google...actors"&f=false

 







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