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Counter-acting the side-effects of Atomoxetine?

strattera anxiety depression cognition

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#1 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 08:08 PM


All right, I've been reviewing the evidence for NSRI's and ADHD-PI, and there definitely seems to be a case to be made for Strattera.

 

I'm still trying to get Viloxazine instead, but if I fail to do so, and end up getting the traditional option, I need to be prepared.

 

 

I have had stimulant-triggered anxiety, and even SUICIDAL IDEATION (and no, I had never had that prior to stimulant-treatment, so YES, it's related to the methylphenidate), when the negative effects were at their worst.

 

This is obviously a huge problem, because even if I use the very careful titration-schedule I have made, I'm still in the potential dangerzone - SI is a fairly common side-effect on Strattera, so changes are, I will get it - and get it in spades.

 

That is unacceptable - I don't have time for such nonsense.

 

 

So - how do I avoid the psychological side-effects that are so common on Strattera? I hear that apparently Buspirone have some benefficial effects when combined with Atomoxetine, but I must say that I'm scratching my head as to why that is...

 

 

Any suggestions lads? How do I stop myself from blowing my brains out, when I start taking Strattera?



#2 gamesguru

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 08:54 PM

How quickly and severely did the effects develop?  Did the effects quickly and completely abate or resolve, or is there some residue?

If they abated and weren't severe, do you fear strattera will induce a more severe and permanent dysregulation, if so why?

 

If they develop slowly, just keep an eye out, and discontinue when you notice any signs.

Possible mechanisms behind the increased SI, to which you are apparently susceptible:
 

1) unbearable akathisia: restlessness, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, agitation etc contribute to patient's suicidal tendencies

movement disorder, usually associated with antipsychotic medications, has been reported as a rare side effect of SSRIs. This intense restlessness can be so dysphoric for patients that they might consider suicide rather than endure the restlessness. This is something that practitioners should warn patients about, and look for closely, as it is quite treatable with adjunctive medication.

 

2) The second mechanism involves the natural history of recovery from depression. Depression is a disorder with numerous symptoms, and when the disorder is treated effectively, the symptoms do not resolve all at the same time. Classically, the physical symptoms of depression (including lack of energy, difficulty concentrating, and sleeping and eating disturbances) resolve first and the subjective depressed mood resolves last. As a result, patients who are being treated for depression can have increased energy and increased functionality as they recover, while still struggling with subjectively depressed mood. This increases their suicide risk; they may have lacked the energy or the ability to attempt suicide prior to starting treatment, but as they begin to recover they regain ability and motivation before they have a subjective sense of improvement. As a result, patients are usually at greatest risk a week to 10 days after starting medication, and by 2–3 weeks later, that risk is resolved. Experienced clinicians understand this as a function of the disease, not the specific treatment, and are careful to watch for it and to instruct family and friends to also be aware of it. The problem may be exacerbated by the trend of primary care physicians treating depression. They usually see patients for 10- or 15-minute periods of time and very rarely more frequently than once a month.



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#3 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 09:23 PM

Cheers for the reply, mate.

 

1. The effects took approximately one month to develop. They were related to an increase in dosage.

 

2. The side-effects abated quickly upon cessation, approximately 2-3 days after ceasing Methylphenidate.

There doesn't seem to be residual effects per say, more that whenever I restart some of the higher doses of Methylphenidate, or simply go on it again, the increased anxiety and the SI seems to come much quicker - it doesn't take more than a few days on the higher doses (which I use when there is more work - note also that I am on a very low dose usually, because of the Side-effects - the efficiency is quite limited at this dose tho'. 18+5+5 mg's.)

 

3. I fear that Strattera will induce a stronger dysregulation, since the SI side-effect seems to be more pronounced, and common, among those treated.

 

 

Discontinuing when I feel it coming on is of course a good idea - I did not know that Strattera doesn't need to be tapered like SSRI's, actually. I thought I'd be stuck with SI and anxiety for WEEKS, while trying to get off the med'. Apparently not so. An interesting list btw, I think I actually knew most of it already tho'.

 

Is there something I can do, pharmacologically, to BLOCK the negative effects of Strattera tho'? Usually one goes to SSRI's when it comes to the anxiety and SI from Methylphenidate, and I did notice some improvements there, while being prescribed Sertraline to counteract the emotional side-effects of Methylphenidate.

(once I got up in dosage however, it worsened my insomnia however, so I had to cease it, as the insomnia-effect was causing burn-out. I noticed very accute and severe cognitive decline upon tapering out Sertraline however - I seem to be fairly sensitive to discontinuation-syndrome, it seems.)

 

 

 

1. How quickly and severely did the effects develop? 

2. Did the effects quickly and completely abate or resolve, or is there some residue?

3. If they abated and weren't severe, do you fear strattera will induce a more severe and permanent dysregulation, if so why?

 

If they develop slowly, just keep an eye out, and discontinue when you notice any signs.

Possible mechanisms behind the increased SI, to which you are apparently susceptible:
 

1) unbearable akathisia: restlessness, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, agitation etc contribute to patient's suicidal tendencies

movement disorder, usually associated with antipsychotic medications, has been reported as a rare side effect of SSRIs. This intense restlessness can be so dysphoric for patients that they might consider suicide rather than endure the restlessness. This is something that practitioners should warn patients about, and look for closely, as it is quite treatable with adjunctive medication.

 

2) The second mechanism involves the natural history of recovery from depression. Depression is a disorder with numerous symptoms, and when the disorder is treated effectively, the symptoms do not resolve all at the same time. Classically, the physical symptoms of depression (including lack of energy, difficulty concentrating, and sleeping and eating disturbances) resolve first and the subjective depressed mood resolves last. As a result, patients who are being treated for depression can have increased energy and increased functionality as they recover, while still struggling with subjectively depressed mood. This increases their suicide risk; they may have lacked the energy or the ability to attempt suicide prior to starting treatment, but as they begin to recover they regain ability and motivation before they have a subjective sense of improvement. As a result, patients are usually at greatest risk a week to 10 days after starting medication, and by 2–3 weeks later, that risk is resolved. Experienced clinicians understand this as a function of the disease, not the specific treatment, and are careful to watch for it and to instruct family and friends to also be aware of it. The problem may be exacerbated by the trend of primary care physicians treating depression. They usually see patients for 10- or 15-minute periods of time and very rarely more frequently than once a month.

 

 

 



#4 gamesguru

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 12:56 AM

Methylphenidate. (which I use ... 18+5+5 mg's.)

 

Strattera will induce a stronger dysregulation

I did not know that Strattera doesn't need to be tapered

 

Is there something I can do, pharmacologically, to BLOCK the negative effects of Strattera tho

 

My opinion (and Flex's) is not favorable on methylphenidate.  But it is your affair, so no forcing comment.  And Area-1255 (THE pharmaceutical MAN) declined to assent to or comment on Flex's position, so it's kind of speculation (no offense to Flex).

I´ve read that Methylphenidate alters 306 genes in the striatum and 252 of them were downregulated.

http://www.behaviora...content/10/1/17

http://www.longecity...e-3#entry680963

What would You think about it ?

 

I didnt look into the differences and the reports on Vyvanse Adderall  and Dextroamphetamine in particular,

but If You ask me Amphetamine seems to be even more problematic.

There are several threads where people report detrimental after a few months even within a moderate dose

like:

http://www.longecity...st/#entry666396

 

I dont want to scare You, but rather to warn. You have You own will and know whether You need it or not.

Basically I just want to prevent a bad awakening

 

The good news is that even if you were on Strattera for a relatively long period of time, the withdrawal symptoms are pretty minimal compared to other medications. In fact, there are no documented discontinuation effects from having taken Strattera. With that said, there are still some individuals that experience various withdrawal symptoms after quitting this medication “cold turkey” or from coming off of a high dosage.[1]

anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania and mania.

 

 

AFAIK, the transient SI is thought to be a result of the primary mechanism and the course of treatment.  eg) to stop the SI from developing, one would have to block all or most of Strattera's effects.

Besides, if this theory is true, the SI would dissipate after the first 10-20 days, hence transience.  That's been the theory quoted under  "2)",  in my previous post.

I haven't identified an inhibitable mechanism which actuates the SI, or to which the SI is attributable.  If you can attribute the SI effects to non-primary mechanism(s), perhaps there are ways to inhibit.



#5 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 07:21 AM

 

My opinion (and Flex's) is not favorable on methylphenidate.  But it is your affair, so no forcing comment.  And Area-1255 (THE pharmaceutical MAN) declined to assent to or comment on Flex's position, so it's kind of speculation (no offense to Flex).

 

.

 

 

AFAIK, the transient SI is thought to be a result of the primary mechanism and the course of treatment.  eg) to stop the SI from developing, one would have to block all or most of Strattera's effects.

Besides, if this theory is true, the SI would dissipate after the first 10-20 days, hence transience.  That's been the theory quoted under  "2)",  in my previous post.

I haven't identified an inhibitable mechanism which actuates the SI, or to which the SI is attributable.  If you can attribute the SI effects to non-primary mechanism(s), perhaps there are ways to inhibit.

 

 

I'm not a fan of Methylphenidate either, actually - that's why I'm looking to go another route. My experience have been mostly negative indeed.
 



#6 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 04:20 PM

AFAIK, the transient SI is thought to be a result of the primary mechanism and the course of treatment.  eg) to stop the SI from developing, one would have to block all or most of Strattera's effects.

Besides, if this theory is true, the SI would dissipate after the first 10-20 days, hence transience.  That's been the theory quoted under  "2)",  in my previous post.

I haven't identified an inhibitable mechanism which actuates the SI, or to which the SI is attributable.  If you can attribute the SI effects to non-primary mechanism(s), perhaps there are ways to inhibit.

 

 

Interesting - the SI mostly being related to the norepinephrine-reuptake inhibition is a fairly likely reason - NE is a stress-hormone as well, after all.

 

However, I'm not entirely sure as to why this is so definitive...

 

There is something that might give me some clues tho' - Viloxazine - which is also an NSRI, does NOT have this side-effect. In fact, it's far less commonly reported to cause anxiety and depression as well. What's the difference then? Well, the molecular structure is completely different, for one thing. But, the effects are similar... So what do they do differently?

 

Viloxazine is a GABA-upregulator as well as an NSRI.

 

Atomoxetine is an NMDA antagonist as well as an NSRI.

 

So... could it be the combination of NE and NMDA-antagonism that causes the SI? Or, is it simply the GABA-upregulation that prevents the NE from making you go suicidal?

 

Anybody have any ideas on how to increase GABA-receptor-density - fairly dramatically?

 

EDIT:

Well, look at that - my old friend: Fasoracetam.

 

https://www.reddit.c...gaba_receptors/

 

Seems like it's time to start work on a GABA-stack!


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 04 September 2015 - 04:28 PM.


#7 gamesguru

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 05:12 PM

Healthful NMDA antagonists, such as memantine and magnesium, tend to be anxiolytic [long-term].  Nor am I convinced it is the role of NE as stressor.  Refer back to " 2)  The second mechanism involves the natural history of recovery from depression...",  for my best guess.

---------

Upregulation of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) B binding sites in rat frontal cortex: a common action of repeated administration of different classes of antidepressants and electroshock

 

Neuregulin Induces GABAA Receptor Subunit Expression and Neurite Outgrowth in Cerebellar Granule Cells

Exercise training and return to a well-balanced diet activate the neuregulin 1/ErbB pathway in skeletal muscle of obese rats.

 

Magnolol of Lemon Balm enhances pentobarbital-induced sleeping behaviors and increases GABA(A) alpha receptor subunit density
Anxiolytic-like effects of 4-O-methylhonokiol of Lemon Balm via enhancement of GABAergic transmission and chloride influx

Rosmarinic acid of Lemon Balm inhibits GABA transaminase [an enzyme which breaks down GABA, so may downregulate receptors with repeated use!]

 

Terpene trilactones from Ginkgo biloba are antagonists of cortical glycine and GABA(A) receptors

---------

Bacopa Increases GABA Receptor Functionality in the Hippocampus
http://www.wellnessr..._functionality/

GABA receptor density in the cerebral cortex: effect of Bacoside-A
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3306740/

GABA receptor functional regulation in the hippocampus of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821261


Edited by gamesguru, 04 September 2015 - 05:15 PM.


#8 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 05:56 PM

Very useful GABA-upregulation references, mate - cheers! =)

 

I am not convinced about your guess from 2) tho'.

Strattera has a terrible reputation among both the treatment-population and prescribing Dr's. Negative episodes are more frequently reported than on SSRI's, for instance. And let's not forget that the anti-depressant effect of Strattera was proven to be only slightly, slightly better than placebo - hence why the FDA didn't allow it to be used in the treatment of depression. Hence, why it was rebranded and re-evaluated as a treatment-option for ADHD instead.

 

Viloxazine however, is actually proven to be more effective in treating depression - hence why it's used as such in France. And even tho' Viloxazine is more effective at treating depression than Atomoxetine, it isn't associated with SI at all, and much less with increased depressive thinking and anxiety, than Atomoxetine.

 

In short, when held up against Viloxazine, to corroborate this, it just doesn't hold up.

 

 

On another note - would this be a efficient GABA-upregulation stack, to be used with Atomoxetine?

 

Gaba-B upregulation

Fasoracetam (25 mg)

 

Gaba-A upregulation

Bacopa (? mg)

Kava Kava (? mg)

Lemon Balm (? mg)

 

Any suggestion on dosages and schedule of dosing? (i.e what time of day to take them - morning? Evening? Night?)


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 04 September 2015 - 05:59 PM.


#9 gamesguru

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 09:27 PM

Concerning Viloxazine, it was withdrawn in France, and not many studies on it.  With time there may be suicide reports, most likely either when beginning treatment or after withdrawing from it.

 

Concerning 2), it was just a theory, a somewhat promising, good one, I hoped.

 

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that GABA upregulation/NE activity/etc is THE distinguishing and peculiour mechanism which makes viloxazine never induce SI (assuming it never does).  If you really want to get to the bottom of it, must get your hands dirty.  I mean with google scholar and your dusty keyboard.  First off, look at yourself, because this reaction is not common; it may be due to some polymorphism or mutation not carried by the average person, so your unique biochemistry reacts unfavorably to certain classes of medicines.  Otherwise you gotta tolerate the SI effects (which are hopefully only at the beginning), or just not take the meds.

 

Altered gene expression in the prefrontal cortex of young rats induced by the ADHD drug atomoxetine

we confirmed a significant increase in the expression of GABA A receptor subunits

Edited by gamesguru, 04 September 2015 - 09:32 PM.


#10 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 02:47 PM

By the way, Gamesguru - I'd like to apologize for the tone in my reply there - I seem to have somewhat "fallen in love" with Viloxazine, so that post came out of a rather illogical mind-set, where I was trying to "defend" my beloved new compound. It was illogical and somewhat infactual.

 

Very interesting find regarding the GABA-A expression increase! So, this implies that Atomoxetine actually upregulates GABA as well, yeah? But most likely through a different mechanism.

 

Btw, I've decided that the easiest solution here, might just be to simply stack low-dose Escitalopram with Atomoxetine and call it a day. It seems to be quite potent, it upregulates GABA, and it's far more selective for Serotonin than other SSRI's. What do you think?

 

Btw, I had severe discontinuation-syndrome from Sertraline - is Escitalopram known for any greater discontinuation-syndrome?


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 05 September 2015 - 02:50 PM.

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#11 gamesguru

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 01:06 PM

Btw, I've decided that the easiest solution here, might just be to simply stack low-dose Escitalopram with Atomoxetine and call it a day. It seems to be quite potent, it upregulates GABA, and it's far more selective for Serotonin than other SSRI's. What do you think?

 

Btw, I had severe discontinuation-syndrome from Sertraline - is Escitalopram known for any greater discontinuation-syndrome?

 

Just did a quick check on contraindications, and seems serotonin syndrome is the common one:
Serious - Use AlternativePotential for serious interaction; regular monitoring by your doctor required
escitalopram oral and sertraline oral

escitalopram oral and sertraline oral both increase affecting serotonin levels in the blood. Too much serotonin is a potentially life-threatening situation. Severe signs and symptoms include high blood pressure and increased heart rate that lead to shock.

scitalopram oral brand names and other generic formulations include:

Lexapro Oral

All generic drug interactions for escitalopram oral (lists will include brand and generic names):

sertraline oral brand names and other generic formulations include:

Zoloft Oral

All generic drug interactions for sertraline oral (lists will include brand and generic names):

 

Besides the risk of death, it sounds OK.  I'm wanting to be constructive, so instead of saying do more research on the mechanisms before you decide on your combination, I'll just say, try that combination for a month or so and if you don't like it/feel problems, taper off one or both.

 

Why drop faso for escitalo now?  Faso upregulates GABA-B, escitalo doesn't?  Maybe faso+sertra is too much?

They're probably about the same in terms of discontinuation syndrome severity.


Edited by gamesguru, 06 September 2015 - 01:16 PM.


#12 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 01:31 PM

Actually, I've already discontinued Sertraline completely, so there wouldn't be any risk of serotonine-syndrome at the time - I should probably have made that clearer.

But yeah, you're right - Faso + Atomoxetine (at least during the titration-phase - I intend to titrate Atomoxetine very slowly - apparently the SI and anxiety side-effects seems to be connected to a too high start-dose. Basically, if you start much lower than the prescribed starter-dose, you won't get SI - and once you reach the correct dose, the SI-period has passed, harmlessly. However, that means weeks, if not months, of Atomoxetine being nearly useless - hence supplementation with Faso in the meantime.) is most likely a much better combo - Faso doesn't need to be tapered off after the supplementation-period either.

 

(I've actually used Faso in the past, so at least regarding myself I know this to be true - no discontinuation-symptoms to speak of.)


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 06 September 2015 - 01:33 PM.


#13 gamesguru

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 09:52 PM

I wasn't worried about Faso discontinuation, i was worried about its interaction with lexapro/zoloft.  I mean I googled for interactions and couldn't find any easy ones, but it's not like millions of people have tried this combination, so just be extra vigilant and ready to taper off the ssri if something feels off.



#14 gamesguru

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 04:29 PM

Gaba-B upregulation

Fasoracetam (25 mg)

 

Interactions of ginsenosides with ligand-bindings of GABAA and GABAB receptors
    1. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [3H]muscimol binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenoside Rb1 Rb2, Rc, Re, Rf and Rg1 inhibited the specific [3H]muscimol binding to the high-affinity site.
    2. Total saponin fraction increased the affinity of specific [3H]flunitrazepam binding. Ginsenoside Re and Rf enhanced specific [3H]flunitrazepam binding.
    3. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [35S]TBPS binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenosides did not affect specific or non-specific [35S]TBPS binding.
    4. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [3H]baclofen binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenoside Rc inhibited specific [3H]baclofen binding.

 

Baclofen, an agonist at peripheral GABAB receptors, induces antinociception via activation of TEA-sensitive potassium channels



#15 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 04:59 PM

 

Gaba-B upregulation

Fasoracetam (25 mg)

 

Interactions of ginsenosides with ligand-bindings of GABAA and GABAB receptors
    1. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [3H]muscimol binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenoside Rb1 Rb2, Rc, Re, Rf and Rg1 inhibited the specific [3H]muscimol binding to the high-affinity site.
    2. Total saponin fraction increased the affinity of specific [3H]flunitrazepam binding. Ginsenoside Re and Rf enhanced specific [3H]flunitrazepam binding.
    3. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [35S]TBPS binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenosides did not affect specific or non-specific [35S]TBPS binding.
    4. Total saponin fraction decreased the affinity of specific [3H]baclofen binding without changes in Bmax. Ginsenoside Rc inhibited specific [3H]baclofen binding.

 

Baclofen, an agonist at peripheral GABAB receptors, induces antinociception via activation of TEA-sensitive potassium channels

 

 

Fascinating.

Reading up on Baclofen it actually sounds like a really good drug! =) Not as dependency-creating as Phenibut, and a lot cleaner than most drugs.

The Withdrawal and discontinuation-syptoms are disheartening however... Quite the laundry-list!

 

What do we vaguer would be the cut-off point for addiction or withdrawal? It says prolonged use, but HOW long? I'm guessing, like with benzos and Z-drugs, we're talking a few days per week and then a break?

 

Or can you actually stay on Baclofen for 2-3 weeks, before you take a break? If so, then this might be it... the perfect med' to counteract the initial SI and anxiety caused by Atomoxetine! :=)

 

 



#16 Area-1255

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 05:46 PM

NMDAR antagonists never felt right to me, so I will say that it is possible due to diverse interactions of atomoxetine that stuff gets distorted along the way; leading to the given symptoms you describe OP.

 

Hippocampal NMDA receptors and anxiety: At the interface between cognition and emotion

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#17 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 12:52 PM

How interesting that, now, 1 year later, I finally know what the SI side-effect is... OPIOID-RECEPTOR KAPPA AGONISM!

 

One of Atomoxetine's active metabolites is a Kappa-agonist - hence why it leads to more depression and anxiety than Reboxetine or Viloxazine.

 

CERC-501 should neutralize the negative effects of Atomoxetine NEARLY COMPLETELY.

 

Man...! I can't wait to get friggin' better from burnout so I can help Tolerant with the Cerc-501 group buy...!







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