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Why Physical Immortality? - by Bruce Klein


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#61 rhparker

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 09:49 PM

I don't see why religion and the quest for immortality always seem to oppose each other. I'm agnostic, but I think that even if I were religious, I'd still want research on immortality. Even if successful, such research wouldn't force people to live forever, it would simply provide them with a way to control when and how they left this world. And it's not like we'd be invulnerable--if God doesn't want us living forever, a few well-placed lightning bolts would do the trick!
Personally, even if I was sure there was a Heaven in the Judeo-Christian understanding, I'd still rather remain in this universe. I determine what is 'pleasant' by previous knowledge of what is 'unpleasant'--eternal bliss would get boring really quickly. I need challenges to keep existence interesting--don't get me wrong, Heaven would be a good place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!

--Richard

#62 boundlesslife

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 06:32 PM

I don't see why religion and the quest for immortality always seem to oppose each other. I'm agnostic, but I think that even if I were religious, I'd still want research on immortality.
--Richard

If you were religious, and had at least a sneaking suspicion that after you "gasped your last", you might possibly be transported into some kind of heaven such as Robin Williams was portrayed to have experienced in "What Dreams May Come", then you would wait a long time, I think, before taking out an insurance policy for cryonic suspension and (even further) attempting to organize some kind of local group response capability, recognizing all of the contingencies where things could "go wrong" anyway. Religion would be, by that standard, far more free of "things that could go wrong".

The statement, "I'd still want research on immortality," seems to project the mentality of someone who would be more inclined to "wait in the grandstands to see what might happen", rather than an inclination to engage in active pro-life actions. And, religion and the quest for immortality do not oppose each other at all. It's simply that pursuit of immortality by way of religion requires the belief in conjectural "heavens" for which absolutely no evidence of any kind exists.

To push the point, even if creationists were to establish beyond any doubt that some kind of "God" created the universe, and even humans, how much good would that do you as to your conviction that this "God" would snatch the essence of your personality out of your body as it fell apart, due to aging or being crushed in the collapse of the World Trade Center?

boundlesslife

#63 alexjohnc3

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 04:35 AM

I wonder is religious people will accept immortality? Hmm... well this is good for me since I might live long enough to see this happen (hopefully).

I can't imagine someone wanting death. How could someone want everything they've worked so hard for to just vanish and be lost? They might as well go into an insane asylum. How could someone put no value on everything? I just can't begin to comprehend that...

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#64 manspeaker

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 10:55 PM

I MYSELF HAVE SUFFERED FROM MADNESS. I HAVE NEVER FORGOTTEN THE CONCEPT OF BIOLOGICAL HUMAN IMMORTALITY.. EVEN DURING MADNESS I KEPT GOING ON LIVING KNOWING THAT I WANTED TO LIVE FOREVER. I HAVE TRIED SUICIDE WHEN I SAW, TO MY MIND, THAT THERE WAS NO HOPE. BUT, I HAVE CONTINUED TO LIVE AND WANT TO LIVE EVEN MORE NOW. MY WHOLE LIFE AS A WHOLE NOW IS MUCH MORE PROMISING. I WANT TO LIVE FOREVER.

#65 boundlesslife

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:46 AM

I can't imagine someone wanting death. How could someone want everything they've worked so hard for to just vanish and be lost? They might as well go into an insane asylum. How could someone put no value on everything? I just can't begin to comprehend that...

Perhaps it's not so much "wanting it" as seeing that the way things (presently) work, we're going to "get it" (death) whether we want it or not.

The only remaining question, then, is how to interpret it, and what (if anything) to do about it?

The religious person "invents" a reality scenario in which death is a "doorway" to another life, perhaps one offering "eternal happiness".

The cryonicist pursues a destiny in which he or she "awakens" at a later time and has some level of confidence that "it is really he, or she". These people (and I am one of them) set aside the perceived odds against, the uncertainties of, it "working", on the basis of a perceived "non-zero" chance of survival by a technological approach.

The Buddhist who accepts "nirvana as nothingness", along with stoics, secular humanists, and many others, "takes what he/she can get from life in the way of positive happiness", and (in that pursuit) elects to refuse to focus on the onrushing approach of oblivion.

The person who places hopes in the near-term perfection of anti-aging technology hopes for the best, of a technology which advances slowly toward what will almost surely, ultimately, be available, but who knows how soon?

Finally, the person in the agonal stages of a terminal illness who elects to inhale helium, and thereby end his/her life, rather than endure the pain and/or virtually unbearable discomfort of the condition, accepts death as the alternative to an existence in which every moment is a "living hell".

None of these people, even the one who inhales helium as an alternative to enduring virtually unbearable suffering, is exactly "seeking death" in the way of "wanting oblivion", but the challenges are large, and our abilities to respond are finite.

I'm grateful for the existence of this forum, on which concerns of this kind can be explored in depth, among those who are able to face up to these realities, and share their concerns, hopes, and ideas about possible pathways around what others blindly accept as inevitable, giving it no thought at all.

boundlesslife

#66 anael444

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 01:40 AM

How about immortality through the process of Alchemy?

#67 Live Forever

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 01:44 AM

How about immortality through the process of Alchemy?

How about you figure out what the heck you are talking about before posting here?

#68 arvind

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 07:15 PM

there are many ways to find goal. i want to be happy in any way which may be offered to me by yourgoodself or by time. dr arvind near iti nahan india 173001

#69 williamhessian

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Posted 14 September 2007 - 01:58 AM

steven wright = genius

#70 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 04:39 AM

I don't see why religion and the quest for immortality always seem to oppose each other. I'm agnostic, but I think that even if I were religious, I'd still want research on immortality. Even if successful, such research wouldn't force people to live forever, it would simply provide them with a way to control when and how they left this world. And it's not like we'd be invulnerable--if God doesn't want us living forever, a few well-placed lightning bolts would do the trick!
Personally, even if I was sure there was a Heaven in the Judeo-Christian understanding, I'd still rather remain in this universe. I determine what is 'pleasant' by previous knowledge of what is 'unpleasant'--eternal bliss would get boring really quickly. I need challenges to keep existence interesting--don't get me wrong, Heaven would be a good place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!

--Richard


If I knew there was an afterlife and decided on my own terms that it was desirable, then I might be okay about dying. However, as this isn't the case, I say our best chance is to do what we can to engineer heaven on Earth. [thumb]

#71 dannov

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:52 PM

I don't see why religion and the quest for immortality always seem to oppose each other. I'm agnostic, but I think that even if I were religious, I'd still want research on immortality. Even if successful, such research wouldn't force people to live forever, it would simply provide them with a way to control when and how they left this world. And it's not like we'd be invulnerable--if God doesn't want us living forever, a few well-placed lightning bolts would do the trick!
Personally, even if I was sure there was a Heaven in the Judeo-Christian understanding, I'd still rather remain in this universe. I determine what is 'pleasant' by previous knowledge of what is 'unpleasant'--eternal bliss would get boring really quickly. I need challenges to keep existence interesting--don't get me wrong, Heaven would be a good place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!

--Richard


If I knew there was an afterlife and decided on my own terms that it was desirable, then I might be okay about dying. However, as this isn't the case, I say our best chance is to do what we can to engineer heaven on Earth. [thumb]


The concept of getting bored is from the ego, not the consciousness. Everyone that has crossed the barrier and returned here from stories that I've heard both on the internet and in personal accounts said that, at the time, they felt completely happy and didn't even think twice about their Earthly lives. I have the same attitude as you too, and have even thought what you just said about eternal bliss getting boring really quickly, but I think that it is a notion from the ego--the same thing that drives us to lie, cheat, kill, lust, get "bored", and all of those sort of things.

#72 simple

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 01:19 AM

RHPARKER

Religion does not oppose inmortality, people of faith will attain inmortality (among other things) through their beliefs and their faith, and religion does not oppose that. The rest of your post is too inmature to be answered.

Edited by simple, 20 September 2007 - 02:03 AM.


#73 dannov

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:31 PM

Beliefs and faith don't really get anyone anything. You can believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy all that you want, but that's not going to wish them into existence. Knowing, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal and there are many methods that people have been using since the earliest civilizations to both know and experience.

#74 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 07:55 PM

I don't see why religion and the quest for immortality always seem to oppose each other. I'm agnostic, but I think that even if I were religious, I'd still want research on immortality. Even if successful, such research wouldn't force people to live forever, it would simply provide them with a way to control when and how they left this world. And it's not like we'd be invulnerable--if God doesn't want us living forever, a few well-placed lightning bolts would do the trick!
Personally, even if I was sure there was a Heaven in the Judeo-Christian understanding, I'd still rather remain in this universe. I determine what is 'pleasant' by previous knowledge of what is 'unpleasant'--eternal bliss would get boring really quickly. I need challenges to keep existence interesting--don't get me wrong, Heaven would be a good place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there!

--Richard


If I knew there was an afterlife and decided on my own terms that it was desirable, then I might be okay about dying. However, as this isn't the case, I say our best chance is to do what we can to engineer heaven on Earth. [thumb]


The concept of getting bored is from the ego, not the consciousness. Everyone that has crossed the barrier and returned here from stories that I've heard both on the internet and in personal accounts said that, at the time, they felt completely happy and didn't even think twice about their Earthly lives. I have the same attitude as you too, and have even thought what you just said about eternal bliss getting boring really quickly, but I think that it is a notion from the ego--the same thing that drives us to lie, cheat, kill, lust, get "bored", and all of those sort of things.


I agree that the concept of being bored with happiness is flawed. However, there are ways of being happy that (in my present state of mind) I find undesirable. For example, I would sooner choose to be unhappy than to be unconditionally happy and lose touch with who I am.

#75 dannov

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 02:52 PM

It's tough to say; wish I could experience both and get to choose afterwards. *grin*

#76 simple

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:35 PM

[quote]DANNOV
Beliefs and faith don't really get anyone anything. You can believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy all that you want, but that's not going to wish them into existence. Knowing, on the other hand, is an entirely different animal and there are many methods that people have been using since the earliest civilizations to both know and experience.

Under that label we could also put watching tv, listening to music, playing chess, mountain climbing, etc

there is a number of things , that us, as humans practice for enjoyment, enligthment, to aquire knowledge or to gain experience, etc...

faith on an afterlife, will provide you with morals, if you are aware that you present actions will have something to do with the outcome of your "afterlife", you would be extremely carefull of your actions, (there is a payback at the end of the line, see?) but the lack of beliefs, or faith usually, not always, but usually will lead you to actions that are reprimendable and amoral

#77 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 11:35 PM

faith on an afterlife, will provide you with morals, if you are aware that you present actions will have something to do with the outcome of your "afterlife", you would be extremely carefull of your actions, (there is a payback at the end of the line, see?) but the lack of beliefs, or faith usually, not always, but usually will lead you to actions that are reprimendable and amoral


Most people (religious or otherwise) who do nice things because they genuinely care about the happiness of others. Even if the religious expect a reward, I'm sure that isn't the sole reason they show kindness.

Also, I take issue with the idea of a God who deliberately keeps people out of heaven. If I had the power, I'd let everyone live forever in paradise. So that means that God, the all benevolent father of all mankind, is less forgiving than me, a lowly human? Or could it be that the idea of a spiteful God was created by spiteful people who want their enemies to suffer in hell?

#78 simple

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:20 PM

CYBORGDREAMER

I respect your opinion on that point, I assume that if you had the power , you will see for everyone to be kind and provide happiness to others, but do remember , God gave everyone freedom of choice, you have on your hands the tools to make people happy or unhappy, it is based on your actions and thougths, that will give you or not the means to obtain a spiritual reward.

If you were to decide to give everyone the same reward, then no one will try to better up to, since regardless of our actions you will be ever forgiving.

You would be a bad, bad god

#79 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 24 September 2007 - 10:14 PM

CYBORGDREAMER

I respect your opinion on that point, I assume that if you had the power , you will see for everyone to be kind and provide happiness to others, but do remember , God gave everyone freedom of choice, you have on your hands the tools to make people happy or unhappy, it is based on your actions and thougths, that will give you or not the means to obtain a spiritual reward.

If you were to decide to give everyone the same reward, then no one will try to better up to, since regardless of our actions you will be ever forgiving.

You would be a bad, bad god


If I understand correctly, you're saying that God locks people out of heaven as a deterrent to keep us from doing evil on Earth. However God could prevent all evil, not by removing humankind's free will (if we even have such a thing), but by making us less vulnerable to the evil actions of others. For example, if we were immortal, there would be no murders. Someone could still choose evil and try to kill someone, but it would be impossible for them to succeed.

#80 dannov

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 02:00 PM

Who says we can't be? If you follow ancient Eastern religions, and even the truer interpretations of Scripture, Koran, Torah, etc. you'll find that we are very much God and have the ability to create and destroy. The thing is, that's only something that you can achieve with spiritual purity, something that unfortunately few practice (myself included at the time). Then again, imagine if we had the ability to create and destroy without being cleansed of our egos--that'd spell trouble. There are monks in the Himalayas that walk around scantily clad, as if it were a 100 degree day. Where they walk, snow melts--they create their own environment around them. Look up Robert Bruce and the work he does--amazing man. He recognizes spiritual immortality, but believes that the true goal of a master is physical immortality as well, and that is what he is currently working towards.

God doesn't lock anyone out of heaven--that's just Church psychobabble.

#81 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 12:43 AM

Who says we can't be?  If you follow ancient Eastern religions, and even the truer interpretations of Scripture, Koran, Torah, etc. you'll find that we are very much God and have the ability to create and destroy.  The thing is, that's only something that you can achieve with spiritual purity, something that unfortunately few practice (myself included at the time).  Then again, imagine if we had the ability to create and destroy without being cleansed of our egos--that'd spell trouble.  There are monks in the Himalayas that walk around scantily clad, as if it were a 100 degree day.  Where they walk, snow melts--they create their own environment around them.  Look up Robert Bruce and the work he does--amazing man.  He recognizes spiritual immortality, but believes that the true goal of a master is physical immortality as well, and that is what he is currently working towards.

God doesn't lock anyone out of heaven--that's just Church psychobabble.


To be honest, I find eastern mysticism to be no more rational than western religious constructs. Of course, if you can show me rigorous scientific studies on these show-melting monks, I'd be more than happy to reconsider. ;)

#82 erzebet

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 11:45 AM

Why physical immortality? Because i didn't find any person to come back from an afterlife.

still to me physical immortality is more about the mental immortality - it is about the preserving of information not the hardware per se. some aspects of this kind of immortality were achieved- just think of Leonardo da Vinci, his thoughts survived though his sketches for so long. of course a brain's ability to still take decisions and move muscles or sense is lost, this is a task for these generations to accomplish.




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