17 replies to this topic

[NeuroNootropic]

Whenever I try to learn something new it feels like I've only barely understood it. I can never get that feeling of something clicking in my head. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's like in school when you're trying to understand a certain concept and then it finally clicks for you and you get it; it's like a feeling of deep understanding.

 

When I first took Wellbutrin a few years ago I took it with piracetam and choline and when I read wikipedia articles I was able to grasp the information very easily. It just made sense when I read it. Everything clicked together and it felt like I understood it deeply.

 

I can never get that feeling now. Everything I read, no matter how simple, feels like it's difficult to understand. Nothing ever clicks and makes sense. I've even tried Wellbutrin several times again, but without piracetam and choline, and I didn't get the beneficial effects on learning. Actually, it seems to worsen my learning now. It also seems to worsen my short-term memory whereas before Wellbutrin had a very pronounced benefit on both short-term and long-term memory. Maybe it's because of the piracetam or choline or the combination of both? Wellbutrin is an antagonist of the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor and this receptor upregulates quickly so maybe the choline was working synergistically with Wellbutrin to enhance memory and learning?

 

Regardless, I've tried various other substances like Selegiline, Modafinil, Rasagiline, Modafinil + Rasagiline, Moclobemide, Moclobemide + Selegiline, Rhodiola, Maca, Ginseng, and others that I can't remember now, but none of these have had a positive impact on my learning ability. I still feel slow when learning new things.

 

What affects the clicking or understanding part of learning? That feeling of deep understanding?

[Blackkzeus]

I have the same problem as well. I barely understand things nowadays and never get that feeling of something clicking in my head. I think it has to do with working memory. Your working memory maybe damaged for whatever reason. Are you depressed, or recently been depressed? I know some types of depression takes a toll on working memory. 

 

The working memory issue is solved for me whenever I take a strong dopaminergic like Adderall, Vyvanse, modafinil, or cannabis sativa. I'm sure it has to do with dopamine. I think it's very hard to comprehend something fully in you're in a state of apathy or  have a low pleasure response. If you're brain isn't deriving pleasure from whatever information you're exposing yourself to it will be hard to really understand it. 

 

For a long term solution I'd suggest exercise. Exercise induces neurogenesis in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory and learning. Also, No Fap and engaging in low stimulating activities as to sensitize your dopamine receptors. 

[NeuroNootropic]

Yes, I'm depressed. I have dysthmia which presents itself as anhedonia, apathy, poor focus, fatigue, poor memory, poor learning, and low motivation.

 

I've been exercising consistently for more than 3 years now and I have yet to notice any benefits. I already don't engage in stimulating activities because of my anhedonia and nofap doesn't apply to me as porn doesn't turn me on.

 

That's an interesting theory that you only deeply understand something if you derived pleasure from it. It  makes sense and because of my anhedonia I haven't gotten any pleasure from any subject I read about.

[gamesguru]

Dysthmia: lithium^[1] and chromium^[2].

Learning: bacopa^{[3, 4]}, ginkgo^[5], green tea^{[6, 7, 8, 9]}.

[Blackkzeus]

Can lithium be bought over the counter ? And I'm shocked chromium would help with dysthymia since it's just a mineral.

If you're suffering from depression i suggest taking tianeptine, phenyl piracetam, and lavender oil. They all help to upregulate dopamine over time. And they also demonish anhedonia immediately when you take them.

[gamesguru]

Lithium orotate can be purchased over Amazon.  It's just a mineral with over 300 roles in metabolism, especially enzymes.  People with dysthmia may have issues with a rate-limiting step in synthesizing the enzyme, or with receptor imbalances on the neurotransmitter which the enzyme hydroxylates.  Not saying I wouldn't suggest tianpetine or phenylpiracetam, but they perhaps they wouldn't be my first suggestions for dysthmia.

[Area-1255]

Yes, I'm depressed. I have dysthmia which presents itself as anhedonia, apathy, poor focus, fatigue, poor memory, poor learning, and low motivation.

 

I've been exercising consistently for more than 3 years now and I have yet to notice any benefits. I already don't engage in stimulating activities because of my anhedonia and nofap doesn't apply to me as porn doesn't turn me on.

 

That's an interesting theory that you only deeply understand something if you derived pleasure from it. It  makes sense and because of my anhedonia I haven't gotten any pleasure from any subject I read about.

Shilajit might help you brother. 

Effects of Shilajit on memory, anxiety and brain monoamines in rats

 

Also combining that with Mucuna Pruriens extract with high L-DOPA concentration and then possibly a little Phenyl Piracetam might go a long way.

You could also try Alpha-GPC. That usually helps with retention. Also increase Omega-3 intake ; preferably from food.

[NeuroNootropic]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, but the problem is that a lot of herbs, medications, supplements, etc, can look good on paper but they end up not doing anything for me. Has anyone here had a similar problem and fixed it somehow? What substance(s) did you use?

[Mozes]

Bacopa - the best nootropic I tried so far. Just be patient and keep taking it more then 2-3 month... 

[Blackkzeus]

Bacopa - the best nootropic I tried so far. Just be patient and keep taking it more then 2-3 month...

Did it make you less motivated ?

[gamesguru]

Did [Bacopa] make you less motivated ?

 

Not nearly to the same degree as Cannabis.

I take Bacopa in the evening, usually 250mg.

[Mozes]

 

Bacopa - the best nootropic I tried so far. Just be patient and keep taking it more then 2-3 month...

Did it make you less motivated ?

 

 It make me to be more clear and focused. More relaxed and less stressed. And I like it.

[gamesguru]

 It make me to be more clear and focused. More relaxed and less stressed. And I like it.

 

Did you try taking it in the morning for any period of time?

[Mozes]

 

 It make me to be more clear and focused. More relaxed and less stressed. And I like it.

 

Did you try taking it in the morning for any period of time?

 

 

I take it(if I take it) twice daily. In the morning and the evening, for more than half year.

[Mozes]

Personally, I feel that ability to learn divided into two issues: 1) cognition. 2) motivation.

Bacopa can assist you in issue of cognition. Memory and focus.

Motivation - different issue. For motivation you can try good sleep/melatonin(important !), meditation, healthy food, D and C vitamins, MCT oil, Rhodiola etc.

In an extreme case, as a temporary solution, and under medical supervision only, you can try Pregnenolone /DHEA. Think twice.

[gamesguru]

I notice less of a fatigued/demotivated/drowsy feeling during the day when taking Bacopa at night, and I know this is recommended [nighttime dosing] with certain meds, eg) blood pressure.  Not causing this fatigued/demotivated/drowsy feeling anymore that I take it at night, and this hasn't greatly interfered with sleep (though for a few weeks, there was an adjustment. also above 500mg can have a stimulating/arousing aspect).  Just a thought.

 

Healthy food, vit D3, rhodiola are good suggestions.

Caffeine may compress productivity into a shorter window of time without increasing total expenditure.  Ginkgo may increase total expenditure.

Caffeine increases the motivation to obtain non-drug reinforcers in rats.
Caffeine is widely considered to be a reinforcer in humans, but this effect is difficult to measure in non-human animals. We hypothesized that caffeine may have dual reinforcing effects comparable to nicotine--limited primary reinforcing effects, but potent reinforcement enhancing effects. The present studies tested this hypothesis by investigating the effect of caffeine on responding for non-drug rewards.

• In two experiments, rats were shaped to respond on a progressive ratio (PR) schedule for sucrose solution (20%, w/v; experiment 1) or a fixed ratio 2 (FR2) schedule for a moderately reinforcing visual stimulus (VS; experiment 2). Pretreatment with various doses of caffeine (0-50 mg/kg, intraperitoneal injection) were administered prior to tests over successive week days (M-F).
• In experiment 1, acute administration of (6.25-25 mg/kg) low-moderate caffeine doses increased responding for sucrose under the PR schedule. This effect of caffeine declined over the initial 15 test days.
• In experiment 2, only acute pretreatment with 12.5mg/kg caffeine increased responding for the visual stimulus and complete tolerance to this effect of caffeine was observed over the 15 days of testing.

In follow up tests we found that abstinence periods of 4 and 8 days resulted in incomplete recovery of the enhancing effects of caffeine. The findings suggest that caffeine enhances the reinforcing effects of non-drug stimuli, but that the pharmacological profile of these effects may differ from other psychomotor stimulants.

Pharmacological and biochemical effects of Ginkgo biloba extract on learning, memory consolidation and motor activity in old rats.
Effect of administration of the standardized extract of Ginkgo biloba leaves (EGb 761) on learning, memory and exploratory behavior was estimated in water maze and hole-board tests. Rats (18-month old) received for three months EGb 761 at doses: 50, 100 and 150 mg/kg b.w. per day. After completion of the behavioral experiment, concentrations of neurotransmitters were estimated in selected brain regions. ANOVA demonstrated significant differences in the content of monoamines and metabolites between the treatment groups compared to the control. The increased level of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) in the hippocampus and 5-HIAA (5-HT metabolite) in the prefrontal cortex correlated positively with the retention of spatial memory. Positive correlation between platform crossings in SE during the probe trial and neurotransmitter turnover suggest improvement of spatial memory. Long-term administration of Ginkgo biloba extract can improve spatial memory and motivation with significant changes in the content and metabolism of monoamines in several brain regions.

Edited by gamesguru, 26 September 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[Mozes]

Overall, Ginkgo - good herb. Can be anxiogenic for people exhausted by long term stress. Caffeine can be useful in short term, but causes to burn out adrenal cortex and disrupt sleep. Very pricey I think. Healthy adrenal cortex and good sleep/rest - key to motivation. You can substitute caffeine by tyrosine MCT and creatine. But if you sleep good - no need for stimulants. IMHO.

[EFTANG]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, but the problem is that a lot of herbs, medications, supplements, etc, can look good on paper but they end up not doing anything for me. Has anyone here had a similar problem and fixed it somehow? What substance(s) did you use?

 

Supplements can vary in quality. Try the raw herbs if you can find them and make your own tincture with vodka. Rhodiola Quadrifida is excellent, even better than Rhodiola Rosea when it comes to achieving a clear mind. Despite that, because every person is different products will not always work as expected. Just try! Oriveda is selling some raw herbs for little.