17 replies to this topic

[tfor]

In one of his latest videos on youtube vegangains quotes a leading cardiologist who says that in nature animals which eat plants

cannot get heart attacks or arteriosclerosis and also carnivores do not get arteriosclerosis, but humans do when they eat meats and animal

fats. He also said that you cannot make animals get a heart attack by exposing them to smoke for years any years.

 

What do you say about this? I mean if this cardiologist is right then doesn't this settle the whole thing? These quotes really made me think

I mean if it's really true that heart attacks are all based on cholesterol and animal fats then eating meats and animal products would be totally

stupid it would be as stupid as smoking.

 

 

[pamojja]

 

...leading cardiologist who says that in nature animals which eat plants cannot get heart attacks or arteriosclerosis and also carnivores do not get arteriosclerosis, but humans do when they eat meats and animal fats...

 

Really wished it would be true and that easy.

 

Have been vegetarian since age 10 - no eggs, fish too, or alcohol - and got serious arteriosclerosis at age 42: a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta bifurcation, restricting my pain-free walking distance due to claudatio intermittens of a PAD to mere 3-400 meter, at worst.

 

I started Pauling's Therapy (high dose Vitamin C, Lysine and comprehensive Nutrient supplementation), fish and eggs daily, a glass of wine with dinner and within a year could walk an hour again. Now 7 years later claudatio intermittens symptoms are completely gone.

 

Most animals, carnivores too, endogenously produce vitamin C and don't get arteriosclerosis. Some animals, like humans, primates, fruit-bats and guinea pig, lost the activity of their gulo-gene and get it no matter what food they eat.

 

Considering the complexity in life, I'm not a fan of such simplistic theories about arteriosclerosis. However, pragmatically vegetarianism proved a hoax and Vitamin C the cure in my particular case until now.

Edited by pamojja, 14 September 2015 - 11:03 PM.

[pamojja]

I started Pauling's Therapy ...

 

Was late last night. Forget to add that I did stop sugar and wheat. And reduced processed foods and grains as much as possible.
 

[misterE]

It all depends on what a vegan diet really is. Is a vegan diet a diet high in soda, margarine, chips and vegetables fried in soybean-oil? Or is it high in steamed-vegetables, green-tea, whole-grains and beans? Huge, huge, huge difference... In fact I think the foods causeing most of the heart-disease nowadays is actually completely vegan; processed vegetable-oil, high in omega-6 fats. Animal-fat is bad because it accumulates the omega-6 essential-fatty-acids, found in vegetable-oils, but animals turn them into a more harmful substance called arachidonic-acid. These fats are also present in many "vegan health foods" like nuts, seeds, avocadoes, olives, soybeans, corn, and chickpeas.

 

Weird concept I know, but if you want to prevent and reverse full-blown heart-disease, just stick to proven diets like Ornish or Esselstyn.

 

 

 

 

[Application]

 

 

...leading cardiologist who says that in nature animals which eat plants cannot get heart attacks or arteriosclerosis and also carnivores do not get arteriosclerosis, but humans do when they eat meats and animal fats...

 

Really wished it would be true and that easy.

 

Have been vegetarian since age 10 - no eggs, fish too, or alcohol - and got serious arteriosclerosis at age 42: a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta bifurcation, restricting my pain-free walking distance due to claudatio intermittens of a PAD to mere 3-400 meter, at worst.

 

I started Pauling's Therapy (high dose Vitamin C, Lysine and comprehensive Nutrient supplementation), fish and eggs daily, a glass of wine with dinner and within a year could walk an hour again. Now 7 years later claudatio intermittens symptoms are completely gone.

 

Most animals, carnivores too, endogenously produce vitamin C and don't get arteriosclerosis. Some animals, like humans, primates, fruit-bats and guinea pig, lost the activity of their gulo-gene and get it no matter what food they eat.

 

Considering the complexity in life, I'm not a fan of such simplistic theories about arteriosclerosis. However, pragmatically vegetarianism proved a hoax and Vitamin C the cure in my particular case until now.

 

 

We should assume lacto vegetarian was your diet? Meaning you ate milk, cheese and cream? If so your experience doesn't really speak to the original post which posits humans don't get heart disease eating the correct diet which is entirely free from animal fats and cholesterol. 

[pamojja]

 

Considering the complexity in life, I'm not a fan of such simplistic theories about arteriosclerosis. However, pragmatically vegetarianism proved a hoax and Vitamin C the cure in my particular case until now.

 

We should assume lacto vegetarian was your diet? Meaning you ate milk, cheese and cream? If so your experience doesn't really speak to the original post which posits humans don't get heart disease eating the correct diet which is entirely free from animal fats and cholesterol. 

 

Good point. Though I shunned everything fatty like cream, butter or oils, I did have long times with cheeses and milk. Therefore, you're right that my experience doesn't speak about preventing CVD.

 

But how by adding fatty butter, eggs, healthy oils and fatty fish back in my diet (up to 70% of calories from fats), along with comprehensive supplementation, didn't prevent from recovering from my most debilitating claudatio intermittent pains.

 

Something all my cardiologist thought impossible, unless I would surgically replace my whole Y-shaped abdominal aorta with a goretex kind of tube. ..good enough for me.

[pamojja]

In respect to managing CVD there doesn't seem much a contradiction once we leave ideologies behind. It rather seems there are different constitutions which need different approaches.

 

 

 

Twelve Year Followup for Managing Coronary Artery Diease Using a Nutrigenomics Based Diet and Supplement Program With Quarterly Assessment of Biomarkers

Steven R Gundry

Abstract

Introduction: Coronary Artery Disease (CAD) is thought to be progressive; standard protocols call for a low fat/low cholesterol diet, exercise, and lipid lowering agents in an effort to slow the onset of recurrent MI’s, stents, CABG’s, stroke, or death. This results in an approximate 30-40% new event rate in 5 yrs.

Methods: Based upon our experience using a Nutrigenomic-based, Lectin-limited diet to prevent/reverse Metabolic Syndrome and CAD, we have enrolled and followed 978 pts (aged 42-89 yrs) with known CAD, defined as previous MI, stent, CABG, or positive stress test/angiogram, positive Corus score greater than 30, into a diet and supplement based, physician coached program, which emphasizes large amts of leafy green vegetables, olive oil, radical reduction of grain, legumes, nightshades, and fruits; and 4 oz amts of animal proteins, emphasizing shellfish, wild fish, and grass fed meats, while avoiding commercial poultry (Matrix Protocol). All Apo E 4 genotypes ate large amts of shellfish and avoided animal fats and cheeses. All pts were instructed to take 2-4,000 mg of high DHA fish oil, 200mg of Grape Seed Extract, and 50 mg of Pycnogenol per day. Supplements were individualized based on results of Advanced Cardiovascular Risk Markers, which were sent to three core labs, (Berkeley Heart Labs, and Singulex, Alameda, CA, Health Diagnostics Labs, Richmond,VA) q 3 months and followed to measure compliance and to change supplement/eating regimens.

Results: Pts have been followed for 1.5 to 12 years (mean 9 yrs). While enrolled, 13/978 pts (1.3%) have received a new stent, two that were predicted by a rising Lp-PLA2, two required CABG, based on a rising Corus score, despite HDL’s of 110-120 mg/dl. There have been no MI’s, unstable angina. One pt underwent carotid endarterectomy ; one pt suffered a CVA and died, while in atrial fibrillation, A second pt expired from a ruptured cerebral berry aneurysm. Total CV events over 12 years is 16/978 (1.6%).

Conclusions: We conclude that simple Nutrigenomic-based dietary interventions, emphasizing lectin avoidance, with compliance and supplement choices based upon q 3 month assessment of biomarkers, represents a quantum leap forward in preventing/modifying Cardiovascular events in known CAD patients.

Author Disclosures: S.R. Gundry: Consultant/Advisory Board; Modest; SINGULEX.

© 2015 by American Heart Association, Inc.

(emphasis added by me)

[tfor]

@ pamojja

 

Can you describe a bit more what your protocol looks like? Do you do this under the supervision of a doctor or on your own?

I'd assume it's hard to find many doctors which are into nutrition and actually think that vitamins can help.

 

I also wonder what happened to your stenosis? I mean is it still at 80% or could you reverse it? Reversing it would be pretty phenomental.

 

[pamojja]

I also wonder what happened to your stenosis? I mean is it still at 80% or could you reverse it? Reversing it would be pretty phenomental.

 

80% is my approximation of what was reported from ultra-sonic examinations over years: first I was told it's up to 80%, almost 2 years later that with a at least 70% blockage it would have 'substantially worsened' (same doc), and just last year (different doc) - where I put closer attention to the images and the method - a 85% blockage. However, at least the latest measurement was done at the moment of strongest contraction of the abdominal aorta. And for the first time I could see distinct collaterals pulsating along with it. Therefore my vast improvement is better explained with extensive revascularisation through angiogenesis.

 

At least for my personal life, that and a halting of the narrowing, is just as phenomenal. Since pathological calcification, for example as measured in a coronary artery score, is usually progressing exponentially at 30% each year.

 

Can you describe a bit more what your protocol looks like? Do you do this under the supervision of a doctor or on your own?

I'd assume it's hard to find many doctors which are into nutrition and actually think that vitamins can help.

 

Pretty much by many trials, error and learning along the way (Linus Pauling's therapy recommendations, Dr. Davis 'Track your plaque', etc.). This post mentions a selection of the supplements used. Specialists consulted till now were pretty useless for following up. But I've got a good heart of a GP with which in the beginning I had to negotiate like on an oriental market to get at least half of blood tests I considered necessary done. With my improvement this got much better and now mostly he goes along with my suggestions.

 

I do regular hair tissue mineral analysis and at times do pay specialty blood test out of my own pocket. So when it comes to supplementation I'm pretty alone together with all those others following a similar approach on the world-wide-web.

 

However starting with diet - what to eat or not do - I find it pretty easy by just following the guidance of a cheaply available on the spot blood glucose meter and measuring after each meal.

[tfor]

I'm glad that this is working out for you.

 

Do you also keep check of your cholesterol levels? Do you take statins or any other conventional drugs for the heart?

I think most cardiologist will not support or advise people who want to take supplements besides their blood pressure and cholesterol pills.

I recently read in a cardiology magazine how a professor answered a reader's question about taking magnesium and he advised against it

and really made it look like taking magnesium can be very dangerous and throw your mag/pot ratio out of balance and then you can get heart

rhythm disorders.

It's really weird cause on the other hand there are also doctors who write whole books about magnesium and they say that most people are deficient

and that measuring magnesium in the blood isn't reliable.

[pamojja]

Do you also keep check of your cholesterol levels? Do you take statins or any other conventional drugs for the heart?

 

Many, many more than just standard cholesterols. I don't take conventional drugs, but experimented with metformin and aspirin. Both gave me bad side-effects, so it's not worth it for me.

 

.. and that measuring magnesium in the blood isn't reliable.

 

Magnesium in serum is tightly regulated and totally unreliable. Best would be a RBC (red blood cell) Mg test, since this isn't available here I use inexpensive whole blood Mg test along with HTMA to confirm what I anyway already know: that I need at least 1.8 g elemental Magnesium daily for avoiding painful muscle cramps (by the way, I supplement that much Potassium too), and that still doesn't seem enough to replete my body store. I keep on searching for a doc who would consider Mg deficiency a worthwhile condition to start with IVs.

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 22 September 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[aza]

I recently read in a cardiology magazine how a professor answered a reader's question about taking magnesium and he advised against it

and really made it look like taking magnesium can be very dangerous and throw your mag/pot ratio out of balance and then you can get heart

rhythm disorders.

 

How odd, i've heard of a sodium/potassium and magnesium/calcium ratio, but never a magnesium/potassium ratio.
 

[tfor]

The problem is if you cannot really measure magnesium saturating/depletion in the cells then how do you know how much you need and when to stop taking high doses?

I'd be worried about overdoing it and then getting side effects.

 

Are you magnesium and potassium levels in the normal range, pamojja? Not that they go too high and you rhythm disorders.

 

From what this professor wrote it really sounded like it's totally dangerous to take any minerals for the heart. Really weird.

 

 

[pamojja]

The problem is if you cannot really measure magnesium saturating/depletion in the cells then how do you know how much you need and when to stop taking high doses?
I'd be worried about overdoing it and then getting side effects.
 
Are you magnesium and potassium levels in the normal range, pamojja? Not that they go too high and you rhythm disorders.

 
Up-thread I wrote:
 

Magnesium in serum is tightly regulated and totally unreliable. Best would be a RBC (red blood cell) Mg test, since this isn't available here I use inexpensive whole blood Mg test along with HTMA to confirm what I anyway already know: that I need at least 1.8 g elemental Magnesium daily for avoiding painful muscle cramps (by the way, I supplement that much Potassium too), and that still doesn't seem enough to replete my body store. I keep on searching for a doc who would consider Mg deficiency a worthwhile condition to start with IVs.

 

As long I have repeated lab markers (whole blood and hair) along with severe symptoms Mg deficiency with such a high Mg intake now for 3 years - again - my worry is rather where to get IVs. I'm tired of years of the many ramifications of low Mg.

 

By the way, serum Magnesium isn't totally useless: Once it shows below normal it means you already have depleted 30% of your whole bodies stores, and > 0,73 mmol/mol (0.66 - 1.07 normal range) is associated with lower mortality.

 

 

From what this professor wrote it really sounded like it's totally dangerous to take any minerals for the heart. Really weird.

 

On the Internet you'll find many such warnings, opposite to the usual recommendations. You'll have to verify each claim for yourself, unless you want to follow any of those out of mere blind believe and take the risk of possibly unwanted health consequences.

Edited by pamojja, 01 October 2015 - 11:25 AM.

[tfor]

Pamojja, have you looked into magnesium oil? This is supposedly effective in delivering magnesium.

There is also a book called "the magnesium miracle". It's all about magnesium. Maybe this might interest you.

 

Btw, what kind of magnesium do you use and where do you buy it? Magnesium is usually pretty expensive and

you take very high doses. How much does this cost you?

[scottknl]

Most vegans that have heart attacks also have vitamin B12 deficiency along with folate deficiency which leads to high homocystine levels.  They are called junk food vegans because they don't really pay attention to nutrition;  rather just "save the animals" types.  Vegans that have adequate diets complete in all nutrients don't get heart attacks except as a result of injury.  People following a CRON diet just melt away their artery plaque.  There are studies of the carotid artery intima-media thickness of CRON followers find that their amount of blockage is much less than age/weight matched controls.  In my own case I went from being able to run for about 40 minutes before CRON (w/ high cholesterol ~260 in 2007) to completing a full marathon in 4 hrs 24 minutes after CRON for 6 years recently.  IMHO it's all about the balance of the diet and keeping the calories low.  Balance of the diet meaning all vitamins, minerals, and essential fatty acids accounted for and cholesterol intake very low, saturated fat intake < 10g per day, and Omega ratio 5:1 or less.  My typical macronutrients are P/F/C of 15%/34%/51%.

Edited by scottknl, 04 October 2015 - 12:31 AM.

[pamojja]

Btw, what kind of magnesium do you use and where do you buy it? Magnesium is usually pretty expensive and

you take very high doses. How much does this cost you?

 

I tried many (oxide, citrate, malate, glycinate, taurinate, ascorbate, threonate) but after years of supplementing I found that the kind doesn't matter as much as the elemental content of a compound - and whenever adjusted to the same amount they have the same effect in preventing at least muscle cramps. So nowadays I settled with cheap Mg oxide and a big part from Mg sulfate in a rather expensive mineral water (Rogaska Donat Mg, EUR 1.39/l). Which does contain some other goodies like 3mg lithium per liter, and of which I drink about 1l spread throughout the day.
 

[zorba990]

Consumption of high vitamin k foods and intestinal flora may play a role
http://www.k-vitamin...rdiac_Manifesto