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Nicotinamide Riboside [Curated]

nicotinamide riboside nicotinamide nad boosting charles brenner david sinclair leonard guarente niagen niacinamide nicotinamide mononucleotide

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#1651 bluemoon

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 07:18 PM

I thought Dr. Brenner gave a very good talk. I assume it will be put up soon and want to watch the second half again as he covers quite a bit. During the first half I grinned thinking "this is why I didn't go into biochemistry..." although wish I knew more basics. 

 

Anyway...

 

1) Brenner told his story about how he was the subject of a small n=1 study that he wrote where he analyzed the effects of him taking 1 g of NR for a week. During the Q&A I asked if he still takes a gram, and he said no, 250mg. I didn't ask about taking a break from NR because I assumed he would mention that if he was taking breaks and also mentioned that we will know more after Chromadex's and Elysium's separate results are released.

 

2) I did ask toward the end about any concerns he might have with respect to increased levels of NAD+ accelerating brain tumor growth. He replied that there was the one study out of the U of Washington that showed that but that there are other studies that show increased NAD+ may inhibit tumor growth and that he wasn't sure at this point.

 

3) In the first part of the talk Brenner pretty much stated that resveratol wasn't effective and that it wasn't very bioavailable. Toward the end he mentioned the Elysium study and how it includes pterostilbine, "an analog to resveratrol" but was skeptical that it did anything.

 

4) He also pointed out that the study included only healthy adults (60 to 80) who had a BMI below 30, some [something] might show up or might not in those results. I was sitting in the back and missed the word he used.

 

5) He thinks it will be shown that NR will make more difference for those who are out of shape than those who are very fit.

 

6) He said glucose levels and weight were better maintained in mice who took NR than the control group. Overall cholestrol was reduced but Brenner said the mouse model doesn't translate well to humans if I heard that correctly.

 

7) Brenner said more about heart failure in mice and that NR seemed to help prevent the onset as well as improve heart failure once it occurred. He said EF (ejection fraction) improved but not by how much. He added that he wasn't an expert in cardiology but that several indicators improved.

 

8) Brenner mentioned that he has heard of people saying they have more energy taking 250 mg of NR, but he hasnt experienced that. However, he said that he used to have gastric problems when eating certain food but that went away after he began taking NR and wasn't sure why.

 

 

 

 


Edited by bluemoon, 15 December 2016 - 07:44 PM.

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#1652 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 08:35 PM

Excellent report.  Thanks.

 

 

 


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#1653 prophets

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 06:00 AM

This cell study by Mills/Imai suggests 8 mg/kg of nmn for human dose. What's the conversion of nmn to equivalent NR?

#1654 hoonto8

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 05:36 PM

This cell study by Mills/Imai suggests 8 mg/kg of nmn for human dose. What's the conversion of nmn to equivalent NR?

 

255.25 g/mol for nicotinamide riboside, 334.22 g/mol for nicotinamide mononucleotide (haven't verified, just pulled off of wikipedia). If those numbers are correct then 8mg/kg of NMN would be ~6.11mg/kg of NR.


Edited by hoonto, 19 December 2016 - 05:43 PM.

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#1655 prophets

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:33 PM

Thx.  IDK why I didn't just wikipedia it.  The only difference is a phosphate group (PO3).  Appreciate it.


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#1656 VP.

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:45 PM

Potential treatment for pregnant women who suffer from preeclampsia found in a vitamin

Vitamin B3 nicotinamide may help treat pregnant women who suffer from preeclampsia by preventing strokes and in some cases, even stimulating the growth of their fetus, research indicates.

Up to 8% of pregnant women suffer from preeclampsia, a deadly disease characterized by high blood pressure, blood vessel damage, high levels of protein in the urine and fluid retention that causes swelling in the legs and feet. In some cases, preeclampsia is also believed to restrict a fetus' growth.

Blood pressure-lowering drugs do not improve blood vessel damage. In fact, they reduce blood supply to the babies, which could lead to fetal death.

Until now, the only treatment for preeclampsia-affected pregnant women has been delivery of the baby. Now, researchers at Tohoku University, in collaboration with US scientists, have found that nicotinamide -- also referred to as Vitamin B3 -- relieves preeclampsia in mouse models. Moreover, they have also discovered that nicotinamide can even improve fetal growth in mothers with preeclampsia.

"We had previously shown that endothelin, a strong vessel narrowing hormone, worsens preeclampsia. But inhibiting the hormone is harmful to the babies," says Associate Professor Nobuyuki Takahashi of Tohoku University's Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, who co-led the study.

"In contrast, nicotinamide is generally safe to mothers and babies, corrects the blood vessel narrowing effect of endothelin, and reduces stress to the babies. Accordingly, we evaluated the effects of nicotinamide using two mouse models of preeclampsia caused by different mechanisms."

The researchers concluded that nicotinamide is the first safe drug that lowers blood pressure, reduces urine protein and alleviates blood vessel damage in preeclampsia-affected mice. The researchers went on to show that in many cases, nicotinamide also prevents miscarriage, prolongs pregnancy period and improves the growth of the babies in mice with preeclampsia.

https://www.scienced...61219100556.htm


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#1657 Harkijn

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:58 PM

Hi Velopismo, this is interesting  research and the thing we are hoping for, but it is not about NR. It's about nicotinamde which is a different thing.


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#1658 Bryan_S

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 04:29 PM

Potential treatment for pregnant women who suffer from preeclampsia found in a vitamin

Vitamin B3 nicotinamide

https://www.scienced...61219100556.htm

 

 

Good find, you know NR will become NAM in the end so this is relevant and could be a secondary effect. We posted about "Nicotinamide Riboside Delivery Generates NAD+ Reserves to Protect Vascular Cells Against Oxidative Damage" So the study you found is consistent with others we've read.


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#1659 Bryan_S

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 04:37 PM

Correcting NAD+ depletion may improve muscular degeneration in Duchenne muscular dystrophy [PreClinical]

 

cellmitochondria.jpg

http://www.2minuteme...hy-preclinical/

 

1. Dietary supplementation with nicotinamide riboside (NR), a form of vitamin B3 that acts as a precursor to nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+), increased levels of NAD+ and reduced deterioration of muscle structure in mouse models of Duchenne muscular dystrophy (DMD).

 
2. Concomitantly, NR treatment led to improved mitochondrial energetics and function of cardiac and skeletal muscle.
 
Evidence Rating Level: 2 (Good)
 
Study Rundown: Neuromuscular diseases like DMD are marked by severe muscle weakness and degeneration and often cause death by heart or respiratory failure. Though research has focused on correcting genetic mutations that cause the disease, there are currently no therapeutic treatments for DMD. In this work, researchers demonstrated the efficacy of a member of the vitamin B3 family, NR, in preventing the progression of DMD.

 

We posted this topic awhile ago and its making its rounds again and is worth mention.

http://www.longecity...-47#entry793039

http://stm.sciencema.../8/361/361ra139


Edited by Bryan_S, 22 December 2016 - 04:38 PM.

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#1660 Iporuru

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:42 AM

SELECTIVE SOLVENT FREE PHOSPHORYLATION

A synthetic process is provided for the preparation of phosphorylated analogs of nicotinamide riboside (“NR”) having the formula (I), or salts thereof, and reduced or modified derivatives thereof, having the formula (II), wherein X, Y1, Y2, Z1, Z2, n, R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, and R7 are as defined herein. The present disclosure also relates to the preparation of phosphorylated analogs of nicotinic acid riboside (“NAR”) having the formula (I), or salts thereof, and reduced or modified derivatives thereof, having the formula (II). Generally solvent-free conditions are employed using appropriate mechano-chemical techniques as described.

 

http://www.freepaten...16/0355539.html


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#1661 Bryan_S

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:20 PM

Happy holidays to everyone.

 

Bryan


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#1662 Supierce

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:51 PM

Happy holidays to everyone.
 
Bryan


And a wonderful 2017 to you, Bryan. Thank you so much for all you do here!
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#1663 markkhicks

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 04:03 AM

Was there a followup response on the thread on the possible cancer promotion?


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#1664 Bryan_S

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:15 AM

Role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ depletion: implication for age-related metabolic dysfunction and NAD+ replacement therapy.

 

http://www.sbbq.org....os/R08029-1.pdf

 

Juliana Camacho-Pereira 1,2 , Veronica Nin 2 , Claudia Chini2 , Mariana Tarrago 2 , Antonio Galina 1 , Eduardo Chini2

 

1Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, UFRJ, Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brazil; 2Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Kogod Aging Center and Anesthesiology Department, Rochester, MN, EUA

 

A decrease in intracellular levels of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) has been shown to occur during the aging process. This decrease in NAD+ levels has a causal role on the development of age-related mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic decline. To date, the mechanisms responsible for the age-related NAD+ decline have not been identified. It has been proposed that accumulation of DNA damage driven PARP activation may be involved. However, we identify that PARP levels and activity decline with aging. In contrast, we demonstrate for the first time that the expression and activity of the enzyme CD38 increases with aging and plays an active role in the age-related NAD+ decline in vivo and the subsequent development of age related mitochondrial dysfunction. In addition, we also identify CD38 as the main enzyme involved in the degradation of NAD+ precursors such as nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) in vivo and to have a role in the modulation of the response to NAD+ replacement therapy in aging. These data demonstrates the key role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ and metabolic decline, and highlights the potential role of CD38 inhibition for the development of an effective ìNAD+ replacement therapy" for aging and other metabolic diseases.

 

Keywords: Age-related metabolic diseases, mitochondrial dysfunction, NAD+ replacement therapy

 

Published (Fri, 23 Dec 2016) 

Synthesis and Evaluation of Thiazoloquinolinones with Linkers To Enable Targeting of CD38

http://pubs.acs.org/...hemlett.6b00409

 

ml-2016-00409h_0009.gif

 

Some of you will remember the " Why NAD+ Declines during AgingIt's Destroyed"

http://www.longecity...-47#entry793317


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#1665 Harkijn

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 12:23 PM

 

Role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ depletion: implication for age-related metabolic dysfunction and NAD+ replacement therapy.

 

http://www.sbbq.org....os/R08029-1.pdf

 

Juliana Camacho-Pereira 1,2 , Veronica Nin 2 , Claudia Chini2 , Mariana Tarrago 2 , Antonio Galina 1 , Eduardo Chini2

 

1Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, UFRJ, Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brazil; 2Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Kogod Aging Center and Anesthesiology Department, Rochester, MN, EUA

 

A decrease in intracellular levels of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) has been shown to occur during the aging process. This decrease in NAD+ levels has a causal role on the development of age-related mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic decline. To date, the mechanisms responsible for the age-related NAD+ decline have not been identified. It has been proposed that accumulation of DNA damage driven PARP activation may be involved. However, we identify that PARP levels and activity decline with aging. In contrast, we demonstrate for the first time that the expression and activity of the enzyme CD38 increases with aging and plays an active role in the age-related NAD+ decline in vivo and the subsequent development of age related mitochondrial dysfunction. In addition, we also identify CD38 as the main enzyme involved in the degradation of NAD+ precursors such as nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) in vivo and to have a role in the modulation of the response to NAD+ replacement therapy in aging. These data demonstrates the key role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ and metabolic decline, and highlights the potential role of CD38 inhibition for the development of an effective ìNAD+ replacement therapy" for aging and other metabolic diseases.

 

Keywords: Age-related metabolic diseases, mitochondrial dysfunction, NAD+ replacement therapy

 

Published (Fri, 23 Dec 2016) 

Synthesis and Evaluation of Thiazoloquinolinones with Linkers To Enable Targeting of CD38

http://pubs.acs.org/...hemlett.6b00409

 

ml-2016-00409h_0009.gif

 

Some of you will remember the " Why NAD+ Declines during AgingIt's Destroyed"

http://www.longecity...-47#entry793317

 

Reading through the  article I am mainly frustrated about how much I can't even begin to understand. On CD38 my takeaway is that the authors see it as a total 'bad guy' while previous researchers had a more balanced view of it's actions . Then again this new study is about cancerous cells and in cancer all norms are subverted. So I am still unsure about permanent anti CD38 supplementation in healthy people.



#1666 Bryan_S

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:54 PM

 

 

Role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ depletion: implication for age-related metabolic dysfunction and NAD+ replacement therapy.

 

http://www.sbbq.org....os/R08029-1.pdf

 

Juliana Camacho-Pereira 1,2 , Veronica Nin 2 , Claudia Chini2 , Mariana Tarrago 2 , Antonio Galina 1 , Eduardo Chini2

 

1Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, UFRJ, Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brazil; 2Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Kogod Aging Center and Anesthesiology Department, Rochester, MN, EUA

 

A decrease in intracellular levels of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) has been shown to occur during the aging process. This decrease in NAD+ levels has a causal role on the development of age-related mitochondrial dysfunction and metabolic decline. To date, the mechanisms responsible for the age-related NAD+ decline have not been identified. It has been proposed that accumulation of DNA damage driven PARP activation may be involved. However, we identify that PARP levels and activity decline with aging. In contrast, we demonstrate for the first time that the expression and activity of the enzyme CD38 increases with aging and plays an active role in the age-related NAD+ decline in vivo and the subsequent development of age related mitochondrial dysfunction. In addition, we also identify CD38 as the main enzyme involved in the degradation of NAD+ precursors such as nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) in vivo and to have a role in the modulation of the response to NAD+ replacement therapy in aging. These data demonstrates the key role of CD38 in age-related NAD+ and metabolic decline, and highlights the potential role of CD38 inhibition for the development of an effective ìNAD+ replacement therapy" for aging and other metabolic diseases.

 

Keywords: Age-related metabolic diseases, mitochondrial dysfunction, NAD+ replacement therapy

 

Published (Fri, 23 Dec 2016) 

Synthesis and Evaluation of Thiazoloquinolinones with Linkers To Enable Targeting of CD38

http://pubs.acs.org/...hemlett.6b00409

 

ml-2016-00409h_0009.gif

 

Some of you will remember the " Why NAD+ Declines during AgingIt's Destroyed"

http://www.longecity...-47#entry793317

 

Reading through the  article I am mainly frustrated about how much I can't even begin to understand. On CD38 my takeaway is that the authors see it as a total 'bad guy' while previous researchers had a more balanced view of it's actions . Then again this new study is about cancerous cells and in cancer all norms are subverted. So I am still unsure about permanent anti CD38 supplementation in healthy people.

 

 

My takeaway is now that they've learned how to target it maybe they can use that ability to selectively kill cells that have become bad apples is one thought. Maybe to help deliver drugs to specific sites.

 

"Our interests in targeted nanomedicines have led us to evaluate molecules that bind CD38 as potential targeting ligands to enhance the delivery of polymeric nanoparticles termed ACCURINS11,12 containing drug payloads to diseased tissues."

 

So lets say our target is senescent cells and these cells have a specific sensitivity to a specific compound. CD38 provides a selective marker that can attract the nanoparticles and they carry a substance that only senescent cells are sensitive too.

 

I think its fascinating, so here is an enzyme we know eats our NAD and eventually runs rampant in old age. Now a way has been developed to send medicine straight to the problem. What that medicine does is up to the imagination.

 

As always JMHO


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#1667 trakker

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:44 PM

Chromadex says filed complaint in U.S. court naming Elysium Health Inc as defendant - SEC filing

 

I find this quite curious.  Anyone have insight into this?

 

Seems like if it was simply a matter of Elysium not living up to their purchase quota, it wouldn't make it to level of lawsuit so quickly, which is likely to affect confidence in one or both companies.


Edited by trakker, 07 January 2017 - 07:46 PM.

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#1668 Michael

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:41 PM

Chromadex says filed complaint in U.S. court naming Elysium Health Inc as defendant - SEC filing
 
I find this quite curious.  Anyone have insight into this?
 
Seems like if it was simply a matter of Elysium not living up to their purchase quota, it wouldn't make it to level of lawsuit so quickly, which is likely to affect confidence in one or both companies.

 

See Chromadex's 01/06/17 SEC 8-K filing, Report of unscheduled material events or corporate event, whose Exhibit includes their court filing, and which contains a mixture of reputed facts and allegations (whose underlying factuality or legal probity I am in no way asserting or passing judgement of course):
 

4.    Beginning in 2015, Mark Morris, who was the Vice President of Business Development of ChromaDex at the time, but is now the Head of Scientific Technology at Elysium [my emphasis], was the primary manager of Elysium's account at ChromaDex.

5.    In all of 2015, Elysium ordered 900 kg of NIAGEN NR from ChromaDex. In the first quarter of 2016, Elysium ordered 1590 kg of NIAGEN NR  and  …. raised concerns about pricing under the NIAGEN Supply Agreement directly with Frank Jalcsch, co-founder and CEO of ChromaDex, and Will Black, ChromaDex's Vice President of Sales and Marketing. Mr. Jaksch reached out to Elysium in an effort to open a  dialogue about their concerns and ultimately resolve them. Elysium, however, refused  or ignored these offers to talk.  

On June 28. 2016, without any prior discussion or advance notification,  Elysium submitted extraordinarily large purchase orders for 6600 kg of NIAGEN NR  and 1260 kg of pTeroPure pterostilbene (the "June 28 Purchase Orders"). These amounts were approximately four times larger than any previous order from Elysium,  and more than double the sum of all Elysium's prior orders. The June 28 Purchase  Orders included a demand for pricing at $400/kg, far below the parties' agreed price of S1000/kg for NIAGEN NR, even though Elysium never discussed the proposed pricing changes with ChromaDex. Elysium knew or should have know that ChromaDex would not accept the June 28 Purchase Orders at that price.

Because the June 28 Purchase Orders were wildly inconsistent with the parties' Supply Agreements and past dealings, and in light of Elysium's subsequent failure to pay for NIAGEN NR and pTeroPure pterostilbene supplied by ChromaDex, ChromaDex alleges on information and belief that Elysium intended to induce ChromaDex to inadvertently supply large amounts of NIAGEN NR and pTeroPure pterostilbene to Elysium at grossly discounted prices .

 ChromaDex noticed the grossly discounted prices on the June 28 Purchase Orders and did not Mill them. Instead, ChromaDex reached out to Elysium to discuss [them] …   After Elysium again showed an unwillingness to engage with ChromaDex's senior management to discuss the June 28 Purchase Orders, Morris— who was the one person at ChromaDex whom Elysium would respond to in a  productive manner—helped schedule a call between ChromaDex and Elysium …

10.    On June 30, 2016, Mr. Jaksch and Mr. Black of ChromaDex, joined a call with Elysium's CEO, Eric Marcotulli, and COO, Dan Alminana (the "June 30 Call").

11.    On the June 30 Call, the parties discussed Elysium's concerns and the appropriate pricing of NIAGEN NR for the orders Elysium wished to place. Alminana and Marcotulli stated that Elysium intended to be a good business partner to ChromaDex and explained that Elysium was ramping up, which was the reason the June 28 Purchase Orders were far larger than their past orders. Though Elysium was not entirely satisfied with the price of $800 per kg of NIAGEN NR, which is what ChromaDex offered, Marcotulli represented that Elysium would accept that price now, place an order so that their supply was not interrupted, and work to resolve Elysium's remaining concerns another day.

12.    Later that day, June 30, 2016, Elysium submitted two purchase orders to ChromaDex for 580 kg of pTeroPure pterostilbene and 3000 kg of NIAGEN NR (the "June 30 Purchase Orders"). As agreed upon during the June 30 Call, the June 30 Purchase Orders superceded the (in retrospect, disingenuous) June 28 Purchase Orders. And although smaller than the June 28 Purchase Orders, the June 30 Purchase Orders were still two times the size of any of Elysium's previous fulfilled orders.

13.    Around the middle of July, Morris left ChromaDex to work for Elysium. …

14.    According to the terms of the Supply Agreements, and in reliance on the representations Alminana and Marcotulli made on the June 30 Call, ChromaDex filled the June 30 Purchase Orders  … [and]  provided Elysium with invoices for the shipments …

15.    The total amount Elysium owes ChromaDex for the Past Due Invoices is $2,983,350.

16.    At the time Marcotulli and Alminana spoke on the June 30 Call, Elysium had no intention of (1) ever working with ChromaDex to resolve Elysium's concerns about the NIAGEN Supply Agreement, (2) paying for the … June 30 Purchase Orders, or (3) ramping up their sales to the degree they represented.

17.    Instead, having failed to induce ChromaDex to supply NIAGEN NR and pTeroPure pterostilbene at grossly discounted prices … Marcotulli and Alminana made their false representations on the June 30 Call with the intent of inducing ChromaDex to provide it with large supplies of NIAGEN NR and pTeroPure pterostilbene and to exert financial pressure on ChromaDex by refusing to pay for the orders.

18.    Marcotulli and Alminana's false promises were further motivated by the fact that Elysium, which was seeking financing during the middle of 2016 and into November, has been able to improve its balance sheet by continuing to sell its product for millions of dollars in revenue without paying ChromaDex for its supply.

19.    On August 10, 2016—the day after ChromaDex shipped the last portion of pTeroPure pterostilbene—Alminana wrote an email to ChromaDex stating that Elysium would not pay the Past Due Invoices until the concerns raised on the June 30 Call were fixed according to terms set by Elysium. However, over the next several weeks, Alminana refused ChromaDex's sincere offers to meet and resolve his and Elysium's concerns, all the while maintaining that Elysium would not pay until its concerns were resolved.

20.    Elysium breached the Supply Agreements by failing to pay the Past Due Invoices  … [and] also breached the License Agreement by failing to deliver to ChromaDex (1) a report accounting for its net sales and royalties due (a "Royalty Report") for the quarter ended June 30. 2016 (l:)2 2016") and (2) payment


Edited by Michael, 07 January 2017 - 09:47 PM.

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#1669 Oakman

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 11:30 PM

Chromadex says filed complaint in U.S. court naming Elysium Health Inc as defendant - SEC filing

 

I find this quite curious.  Anyone have insight into this?

 

Seems like if it was simply a matter of Elysium not living up to their purchase quota, it wouldn't make it to level of lawsuit so quickly, which is likely to affect confidence in one or both companies.

 

If that is what happened >  A company soon to hire supplier's product purchasing agent, orders product (with pricing a controversy), and with said product delivered, withholds payment as leverage against pricing and payment. Also, we're talking >10% of suppliers' revenue. Not good.



#1670 bluemoon

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 12:16 AM

 

 

If that is what happened >  A company soon to hire supplier's product purchasing agent, orders product (with pricing a controversy), and with said product delivered, withholds payment as leverage against pricing and payment. Also, we're talking >10% of suppliers' revenue. Not good.

 

 

There seems to be some very good news (for us) in this mess.

 

Notice that Elysium's larger than ever purchases were in June, which happened to be at the midway point of their two month study. It looks like they knew they had good results after the trial had been going on a month to where they also thought they could knock the cost down by more than half. Admittedly, they seem to be playing hard ball, and I'm not saying "right" -- we don't know Elysium's side at all here -- but this is a case where a company with the seven Nobel laureates can at least test pricing demands against a monopoly supplier.

 

Check out how much Elysium stands to make on each 250 mg dose of NR if they get the $400/kilo price. This looks to me like they are going large scale in 2017 and will start charging more like $30 per month (with pterostilbine) instead of $50 per month.


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#1671 midas

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:17 AM

 

 

 

If that is what happened >  A company soon to hire supplier's product purchasing agent, orders product (with pricing a controversy), and with said product delivered, withholds payment as leverage against pricing and payment. Also, we're talking >10% of suppliers' revenue. Not good.

 

 

There seems to be some very good news (for us) in this mess.

 

Notice that Elysium's larger than ever purchases were in June, which happened to be at the midway point of their two month study. It looks like they knew they had good results after the trial had been going on a month to where they also thought they could knock the cost down by more than half. Admittedly, they seem to be playing hard ball, and I'm not saying "right" -- we don't know Elysium's side at all here -- but this is a case where a company with the seven Nobel laureates can at least test pricing demands against a monopoly supplier.

 

Check out how much Elysium stands to make on each 250 mg dose of NR if they get the $400/kilo price. This looks to me like they are going large scale in 2017 and will start charging more like $30 per month (with pterostilbine) instead of $50 per month.

 

 

I like your thinking here, but I cant quite understand why a company that is "possibly" reacting to good study results would rock the boat with the ONE AND ONLY supplier of the raw product by not paying their bills.......!

Sort of sounds like you are poisoning your only water supply.. :|?


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#1672 stefan_001

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:30 AM

 

 

 

 

If that is what happened >  A company soon to hire supplier's product purchasing agent, orders product (with pricing a controversy), and with said product delivered, withholds payment as leverage against pricing and payment. Also, we're talking >10% of suppliers' revenue. Not good.

 

 

There seems to be some very good news (for us) in this mess.

 

Notice that Elysium's larger than ever purchases were in June, which happened to be at the midway point of their two month study. It looks like they knew they had good results after the trial had been going on a month to where they also thought they could knock the cost down by more than half. Admittedly, they seem to be playing hard ball, and I'm not saying "right" -- we don't know Elysium's side at all here -- but this is a case where a company with the seven Nobel laureates can at least test pricing demands against a monopoly supplier.

 

Check out how much Elysium stands to make on each 250 mg dose of NR if they get the $400/kilo price. This looks to me like they are going large scale in 2017 and will start charging more like $30 per month (with pterostilbine) instead of $50 per month.

 

 

I like your thinking here, but I cant quite understand why a company that is "possibly" reacting to good study results would rock the boat with the ONE AND ONLY supplier of the raw product by not paying their bills.......!

Sort of sounds like you are poisoning your only water supply.. :|?

 

 

its shocking how much money is "lost" in packing the NR into pills by companies like Elysium. Chromadex should open a direct supply to consumers:

- 1000USD / kg would translate into 7.5USD for a  month supply.

Elysium burns the consumer cash on marketing like paying for fancy names and themselves.
 


Edited by stefan_001, 08 January 2017 - 08:32 AM.

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#1673 bluemoon

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 03:02 PM

 

 

its shocking how much money is "lost" in packing the NR into pills by companies like Elysium. Chromadex should open a direct supply to consumers:

- 1000USD / kg would translate into 7.5USD for a  month supply.

Elysium burns the consumer cash on marketing like paying for fancy names and themselves.
 

 

 

 

But Elysium doesn't have a monopoly on NR at the retail level. Chromadex gets to set the wholesale price based on how much it can think it can sell and Elysium, HPN, etc can take it or leave it.  I wonder what Elysium's side of the story is. 



#1674 stefan_001

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:05 PM

 

 

 

its shocking how much money is "lost" in packing the NR into pills by companies like Elysium. Chromadex should open a direct supply to consumers:

- 1000USD / kg would translate into 7.5USD for a  month supply.

Elysium burns the consumer cash on marketing like paying for fancy names and themselves.
 

 

 

 

But Elysium doesn't have a monopoly on NR at the retail level. Chromadex gets to set the wholesale price based on how much it can think it can sell and Elysium, HPN, etc can take it or leave it.  I wonder what Elysium's side of the story is. 

 

 

well at least it appears they play with fire. This article shows a snapshot stating the elisium contract with chromadex ends in February and will not be extended:

http://www.timelessl...t-paying-bills/


 



#1675 Nate-2004

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 09:47 PM

 

 

 

 

its shocking how much money is "lost" in packing the NR into pills by companies like Elysium. Chromadex should open a direct supply to consumers:

- 1000USD / kg would translate into 7.5USD for a  month supply.

Elysium burns the consumer cash on marketing like paying for fancy names and themselves.
 

 

 

 

But Elysium doesn't have a monopoly on NR at the retail level. Chromadex gets to set the wholesale price based on how much it can think it can sell and Elysium, HPN, etc can take it or leave it.  I wonder what Elysium's side of the story is. 

 

 

well at least it appears they play with fire. This article shows a snapshot stating the elisium contract with chromadex ends in February and will not be extended:

http://www.timelessl...t-paying-bills/

 

 

 

That's totally messed up that they would do this, risking all the credibility they were espousing with their team of nobel scientists. Really odd.


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#1676 TaiChiKid

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 10:24 PM

But NR is a natural substance, and Chromadex only has an exclusive for producing NR by a particular method.  Could it be that a second, unique process to produce NR has surfaced?  The latter is another possibility.  I do not think that with all the positive research reviewed on this forum that Elysium would cut off their foot..


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#1677 bluemoon

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 10:29 PM

 

 

That's totally messed up that they would do this, risking all the credibility they were espousing with their team of nobel scientists. Really odd.

 

 

This looks odd because we don't know important pieces to the story. 

 

I think Elysium, which keeps expanding its advisory board with big names, brought an important Chromadex employee to its company,  recently raised $20 million and is holding onto potentially very good news about its summer trial, knows what it's doing. 

 

The first trial results showed that 500 mg of NR with 100 mg of pterostilbine raised NAD+ levels 90 percent as opposed to 45 percent at 250 mg NR and 50 mg of pterostilbine. It's possible that the trial results showed clear health benefits at the higher dose but knows most will be reluctant to pay $3.30 a day for this and so are trying to force down their costs.

 

Leonard Guarente said the trial results will be published in a peer reviewed journal, but Elysium can put them up on its homepage at any time as it said it would do three years ago. My guess is that they are waiting to do so until it can figure out its dose recommendation and possible change in pricing. 

 

Isn't it also possible Elysium could start to sell NMN if those production costs were lowered?



#1678 stefan_001

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 10:54 PM



That's totally messed up that they would do this, risking all the credibility they were espousing with their team of nobel scientists. Really odd.


This looks odd because we don't know important pieces to the story.

I think Elysium, which keeps expanding its advisory board with big names, brought an important Chromadex employee to its company, recently raised $20 million and is holding onto potentially very good news about its summer trial, knows what it's doing.

The first trial results showed that 500 mg of NR with 100 mg of pterostilbine raised NAD+ levels 90 percent as opposed to 45 percent at 250 mg NR and 50 mg of pterostilbine. It's possible that the trial results showed clear health benefits at the higher dose but knows most will be reluctant to pay $3.30 a day for this and so are trying to force down their costs.

Leonard Guarente said the trial results will be published in a peer reviewed journal, but Elysium can put them up on its homepage at any time as it said it would do three years ago. My guess is that they are waiting to do so until it can figure out its dose recommendation and possible change in pricing.

Isn't it also possible Elysium could start to sell NMN if those production costs were lowered?

Or they have a cash management problem and simply cannot pay
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#1679 bluemoon

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 11:03 PM

 


Or they have a cash management problem and simply cannot pay

 

 

Unlikely. Elysium couldn't keep attracting top talent, even a guy from Chromadex, if its financial situation was that bad.  



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#1680 stefan_001

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 11:07 PM


Or they have a cash management problem and simply cannot pay


Unlikely. Elysium couldn't keep attracting top talent, even a guy from Chromadex, if its financial situation was that bad.

My guess is that they expected the recent financing deal to be done much earlier so they overspend. Probably the actual cash from the deal is still not in. That what companies do, first you screw your suppliers to conserve cash, then employees. Simply poor management, makes you wonder what they spend the income on.





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