32 replies to this topic

[birthdaysuit]

This is the brand that I bought previously, they claim 35% polysaccharides, not sure the percentage of starch this includes. 

 

The CoA is forwarded from the the manufacture in China to the supplier, so it has not been third party tested, which is a little upsetting. 

 

http://www.herbal-is...ct-10-1-powder/

 

 

Real Mushrooms includes the percentage of Beta-Glucans!

 

http://www.realmushrooms.com/#reishi

 

 

 

Here’s some other brands,

 

https://www.mountain...shrooms/profile

 

http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=B00D2Z5X02

 

https://www.hyperion...i-extract-4-oz/

 

http://www.shamansha...ted-red-reishi/

 

 

I’m looking to find a quality reishi powder extract that is dual extracted and is certified organic. 

[CoconutDi]

Jing Herbs is a good brand.  If you order from their website it is cheaper than the amazon link posted above.  I have personally used their products and can attest to the quality.  

[Real Mushrooms]

Thanks for the shoutout. 

 

Our recommendation for reishi:

• 100% fruiting bodies
• certified organic = low levels of pesticides
• dual extracted (water/alcohol) to get all the active compounds out. some products are only water extracted so you lose out on the triterpenes which are mainly alcohol soluble.
• measured beta-glucans (polysaccharides include starch)
• optional but good to have: measured starch to show purity. it should be less than 5%.

Edited by Real Mushrooms, 03 November 2015 - 01:50 AM.

[birthdaysuit]

 

Thanks for the shoutout. 

 

Our recommendation for reishi:

• 100% fruiting bodies
• certified organic = low levels of pesticides
• dual extracted (water/alcohol) to get all the active compounds out. some products are only water extracted so you lose out on the triterpenes which are mainly alcohol soluble.
• measured beta-glucans (polysaccharides include starch)
• optional but good to have: measured starch to show purity. it should be less than 5%.

 

Where are your reishi mushrooms sourced and could you provide a CoA? I’ve heard good things about real mushrooms . com, so I might start buying from you!

[Real Mushrooms]

Where are your reishi mushrooms sourced and could you provide a CoA? I’ve heard good things about real mushrooms . com, so I might start buying from you!

Sourced from China. We'll be putting up CoA's soon.

 

They're all certified organic, certified kosher and screened for heavy metals in accordance with the American Health Products Association (AHPA) guidelines for heavy metals which is in compliance with CA Prop 65.

 

Independently tested in North America. Measured beta-glucans, triterpenes and starch. 

[birthdaysuit]

 

Where are your reishi mushrooms sourced and could you provide a CoA? I’ve heard good things about real mushrooms . com, so I might start buying from you!

Sourced from China. We'll be putting up CoA's soon.

 

They're all certified organic, certified kosher and screened for heavy metals in accordance with the American Health Products Association (AHPA) guidelines for heavy metals which is in compliance with CA Prop 65.

 

Independently tested in North America. Measured beta-glucans, triterpenes and starch. 

 

When you put them up, I’ll be buying, unless of course the results aren’t up to my standards but I know your company would never sell a crap product. No sarcasm here, I’m just very picky.

Edited by birthdaysuit, 11 November 2015 - 05:39 AM.

[birthdaysuit]

 

Where are your reishi mushrooms sourced and could you provide a CoA? I’ve heard good things about real mushrooms . com, so I might start buying from you!

Sourced from China. We'll be putting up CoA's soon.

 

They're all certified organic, certified kosher and screened for heavy metals in accordance with the American Health Products Association (AHPA) guidelines for heavy metals which is in compliance with CA Prop 65.

 

Independently tested in North America. Measured beta-glucans, triterpenes and starch. 

 

 

Also, is a carrier added to your extract like the 20% maltodextrin added in Herbal Island’s Reishi? 

[Real Mushrooms]

Also, is a carrier added to your extract like the 20% maltodextrin added in Herbal Island’s Reishi? 

 

Nope. It's pure mushroom. That's why we measure starch on our labels. To show purity. I believe we're the first company to do this. 

[birthdaysuit]

Also, is a carrier added to your extract like the 20% maltodextrin added in Herbal Island’s Reishi?

Nope. It's pure mushroom. That's why we measure starch on our labels. To show purity. I believe we're the first company to do this.

Awesome, I have yet to find any other mushroom company that does this. When do you think you'll be putting up the CoA's? I really appreciate the feedback.

[Skyguy2005]

What about using the actual dried mushrooms? You can boil them, and make a tea or even eat them (a bit chewy/woody).

 

I find Red Reishi is the perfect Yang (sedating) to my Ginkgo Biloba Yin (stimulating).

[Real Mushrooms]

Yes that's basically a water extract. You won't get as much of the triterpenes compounds as you would with an alcohol extract. You can put the dried pieces into alcohol after you're getting no more color out of your tea mixture. 

 

I wouldn't recommend eating them. That will be uncomfortable and not likely to get very of much of the active compounds.

[EFTANG]

What about using the actual dried mushrooms? You can boil them, and make a tea or even eat them (a bit chewy/woody).

 

I find Red Reishi is the perfect Yang (sedating) to my Ginkgo Biloba Yin (stimulating).

 

Making your own Reishi tea is time consuming, ineffective and relatively expensive. I quote from this article:

 

"The HongKong Consumer Council put this traditional method to the test (Choice magazine #286, August 15, 2000). They compared a home-made Reishi tea with a professionally produced extract.

The study team used 15 grams of red Reishi slices and boiled them in 300 cc (about one bowl) of water for an hour. Their lab analysis showed that the amount of polysaccharides extracted was about 0.076 grams ( ± 0.5%), so the study concluded that this boiling method by the consumer is not only labor intensive, but also much more expensive and clearly less effective than consuming ready-made industrially processed Reishi products.

One reason for the low percentage of polysaccharides in the tea is this: polysaccharides are large strings of molecules, which will disintegrate under continuous high temperatures, thus losing their bioactivity. Research found that when performing the boiling of the dried mushroom under pressure this disintegration does not take place and a much higher yield of bioactive polysaccharides is achieved.

Low-pressure or no-pressure hot water extraction (like when making mushroom tea) is inefficient."

[normalizing]

how about just grind the the dried mushroom into powder yourself and consume with a drink? this way, you dont heat it, make your own powder so you know whats in there, and you can get all the stuff without need for hot water or alcohol to extract specifics

[Real Mushrooms]

how about just grind the the dried mushroom into powder yourself and consume with a drink? this way, you dont heat it, make your own powder so you know whats in there, and you can get all the stuff without need for hot water or alcohol to extract specifics

 

you won't get the same level of benefits without extracting it. 

 

mushroom cell walls are very tough and hard to digest hence why extractions are done, to break down the cell walls. the majority of medicinal compounds are in the cell walls. 

[normalizing]

^ does that also mean culinary mushrooms are not very healthy because they have to be specifically extracted to get the most benefits from breaking down their cell walls most effectively?

[EFTANG]

^ does that also mean culinary mushrooms are not very healthy because they have to be specifically extracted to get the most benefits from breaking down their cell walls most effectively?

 

No, because you usually cook or stir fry them, which you can compare to low level extraction.

 

Raw mushrooms are not useless though, because they are loaded with dietary fibers (chitin is the main structural element in mushroom cell walls, and chitin is a dieatry fiber). Good for the gut health!

 

See this graph from a recent research paper comparing the effect of extracted and non-extracted mushroom supplements on 2 specific immunological parameters:

[Real Mushrooms]

See this graph from a recent research paper comparing the effect of extracted and non-extracted mushroom supplements on 2 specific immunological parameters:

 

That paper is misleading because the products tested are mislabelled. 

 

The following mushrooms and mushroom extracts were used in this study: PSK from Kureha Corp. (Japan); Trametes versicolor, G. lucidum, Inonotus obliquus, G. frondosa, Agaricus brasiliensis (=A. blazei sensu Heinem.), L. edodes, Hericium eri- naceus, Ophiocordyceps sinensis, and Tremella fuciformis hot water extracts from Mushroom Science (Eugene, OR); T. versicolor, L. edodes, A. brasiliensis, and G. lucidum hot water extracts ground mushroom products from Aloha Medicinals Inc. (Carson City, NV); T. versicolor, G. lucidum, G. frondosa, I. obliquus, H. erinaceus, A. brasiliensis, O. sinensis, and Phellinus linteus ground mushroom products from Fungi Perfecti (Olympia, WA); G. lucidum and O. sinensis ground mushroom products from Vitamin Shoppe (North Bergen, NJ); G. frondosa ground mushroom prod- uct from Maitake Products Inc. (Paramus, NJ); G. frondosa ground mushroom product from Oregon’s Wild Harvest (Sandy, OR); O. sinen- sis and L. edodes ground mushroom products from Eclectic Institute (Sandy, OR); O. sinensis ground mushroom product from Paradise Herbs & Essentials (Huntington Beach, CA); G. lucidum and O. sinensis ground mushroom products from New Chapter Inc. (Brattleboro, VT); G. lucidum hot water extract from BioMed Balance (Seattle, WA); O. sinensis ground mushroom product from Solaray (Park City, UT); O. sinensis ground mush- room product from Jarrow Formulas (Los Angeles, CA); and hot water extracts of a G. lucidum, L. edodes, G. frondosa, P. ostreatus, and A. brasil- iensis blend (Agarikon.1) and of a G. lucidum and L. edodes blend (Mykoprotect.1) from Dr. Myko San (Zagreb, Croatia). 

 

 

What they are referring to as "ground mushrooms" are primarily mycelium on grain (ie.not mushroom). PSK is a drug, much more than a hot water extract of turkey tail. None of the products are characterized according to any active compounds (eg. beta-glucans). All products are not created equally. 

 

So the paper is flawed but it does show how easily people (and scientists) are confused by what is actually in a "mushroom" product.

 

It also shows, according to TNF-alpha and TLR2 tests, a lack of activity in the mycelium on grain products. 

 

Full paper: https://www.dropbox....5 copy.pdf?dl=0

Edited by Real Mushrooms, 17 January 2016 - 09:01 PM.

[normalizing]

realmushrooms, i did the experiment you were discussing before about checking quality extracts with iodine solution and i tried it on the fungi perfecti brand and it seems legit even though the label states mycelia grown on grain. interestingly, it did not turn purple/black so i guess its good quality and lacks overabundance of starch.

[Real Mushrooms]

realmushrooms, i did the experiment you were discussing before about checking quality extracts with iodine solution and i tried it on the fungi perfecti brand and it seems legit even though the label states mycelia grown on grain. interestingly, it did not turn purple/black so i guess its good quality and lacks overabundance of starch.

Can you elaborate on the steps you took to do the test? Which product? 

[normalizing]

i tried it with this one; http://www.fungi.com...sules-30ct.html

 

i didnt have tubes so i did it with plastic water bottles but i believe it works the same. i used iodine i got from whole foods and initially i put little but i thought perhaps i need to put as much as possible because maybe i had a bit too much material and water in the bottle so i actually kept sipping and sipping and still, the color was not changing it was basic brownish powdery as it looks in capsules. i was always suspicious fungi perfecti has too much starch in their products because they grow their mushrooms on grain, but i believe now they are genuine. even though, suspiciously yet, i still dont find much positive effect from consuming their products... :s

[Real Mushrooms]

How much water and how many capsules? Do you have any flour you can test the iodine with?

 

It should definitely go black with the brown rice in there. 

[normalizing]

ill test other starchy powders whatever i can find see if iodine is good quality at all or maybe i didnt do it right first time but from your opinion fungi perfecti is not good quality? it seems to be the most prominent mushroom supplement out there with long time good reputation being owned by paul stamets. i think of all people he must know what he is doing right?

[EFTANG]

ill test other starchy powders whatever i can find see if iodine is good quality at all or maybe i didnt do it right first time but from your opinion fungi perfecti is not good quality? it seems to be the most prominent mushroom supplement out there with long time good reputation being owned by paul stamets. i think of all people he must know what he is doing right?

 

Stamets has a great reputation because of his TED apperances and he's also a contributor to The Huffington Post. He wrote several books and is not too shy to make media appearances as often as possible. Many people automatically think that everything he does or says is great. That's just not true. Stay critical!

 

His two lines of mushroom products are definitely not the best, at least in my opinion. But judge for yourself!

The main problem with his Host Defense products is that these are not extracted. Mycelium on grain does not need to be a problem in itself, as long as the cultivator allows the mycelium to completely 'eat' the substrate, so the end product will be low on undigested substrate (grains or rice). The real problem is that the majority of people will experience little health benefits because the bioavailability of these products is very low. They can't digest raw mushrooms properly. Traditional use and scientific research always uses some form of extraction, for exactly this reason!

His line of liquid extracts is also not the best option IMO. No guaranteed levels of active ingredients and a very poor value for money.

See this link for a great explanation.

[EFTANG]

 

See this graph from a recent research paper comparing the effect of extracted and non-extracted mushroom supplements on 2 specific immunological parameters:

 

That paper is misleading because the products tested are mislabelled.

 

 

What they are referring to as "ground mushrooms" are primarily mycelium on grain (ie.not mushroom). PSK is a drug, much more than a hot water extract of turkey tail. None of the products are characterized according to any active compounds (eg. beta-glucans). All products are not created equally. 

 

So the paper is flawed but it does show how easily people (and scientists) are confused by what is actually in a "mushroom" product.

 

It also shows, according to TNF-alpha and TLR2 tests, a lack of activity in the mycelium on grain products. 

 

Full paper: https://www.dropbox....5 copy.pdf?dl=0

 

 

I agree that the paper is flawed in several ways, but the main issue is not the mislabeling of mycelium-based products. The paper in mainly flawed in that they do not verify the potency of the extracts and the non-extracted products by testing for e.g. glucans and by doing so, determine the purity. If they would have done that the outcome would have much more weight IMO.

 

PSK is a Japanese mycellium-based supplement, not a prescription drug. It is currently not more than a run-of-the-mill hot water extract. The patent expired many years ago and the procedure described in that patent is too cumbersome and too expensive to use for commercial products. I remember John Seleen of Mushroom Science giving a great and well-referenced description when I asked him about it, but I can't trace his email anymore on my computer. If you want the details I suggest you contact him - he's very knowledgeable and likes to share.

 

Though flawed I think the paper still shows there is a great difference in immunological potential between extracted and non-extracted products.
 

[normalizing]

how should those host defense products be extracted for best results you think? i dont think they actually put the whole grown mycelium into capsules as that would take hundreds of caps. i assume they are indeed extracted by some method maybe it just doesnt specify what the extraction method is.

[Real Mushrooms]

how should those host defense products be extracted for best results you think? i dont think they actually put the whole grown mycelium into capsules as that would take hundreds of caps. i assume they are indeed extracted by some method maybe it just doesnt specify what the extraction method is.

 

The main issue with mycelium on grain products is the residual starch from growing medium. The Nammex study shows how the mycelium does not fully consume the growth medium, leaving it behind in the finished product.

 

I agree that the paper is flawed in several ways, but the main issue is not the mislabeling of mycelium-based products. The paper in mainly flawed in that they do not verify the potency of the extracts and the non-extracted products by testing for e.g. glucans and by doing so, determine the purity. If they would have done that the outcome would have much more weight IMO.

 

PSK is a Japanese mycellium-based supplement, not a prescription drug. It is currently not more than a run-of-the-mill hot water extract. The patent expired many years ago and the procedure described in that patent is too cumbersome and too expensive to use for commercial products. I remember John Seleen of Mushroom Science giving a great and well-referenced description when I asked him about it, but I can't trace his email anymore on my computer. If you want the details I suggest you contact him - he's very knowledgeable and likes to share.

 

Though flawed I think the paper still shows there is a great difference in immunological potential between extracted and non-extracted products.
 

 

 

Yes. None of the products are characterized for active compounds. Another flaw. Labelling mycelium on grain products as mushroom is a serious issue that faces the current industry. Many products are mislabelled and misrepresented which deceived customers into thinking they are taking mushroom when in fact they are not. Even scientists are being confused. 

 

I'll review PSK but it is a concentration of protein bound polysaccharides. As far as I'm aware, it's not comparable to a turkey tail extract.

 

If it is just a standard water extract, then how is the procedure too expensive for commercial use?

 

I'd be interested to know how John describes it.

Edited by Real Mushrooms, 19 January 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[EFTANG]

[...]

 

I'll review PSK but it is a concentration of protein bound polysaccharides. As far as I'm aware, it's not comparable to a turkey tail extract.

 

If it is just a standard water extract, then how is the procedure too expensive for commercial use?

 

I'd be interested to know how John describes it.

 

 

Yo I traced the message from John about PSK - I quote (it's apparently taken from an interview) :

 

 “Even the pharmaceutical company making "PSK" is running a scam.  If you read the manufacturing patent, the basis for getting the patent is that their extraction process can get more PSK out of the raw material than a straight forward hot water extract.  However, in the patent they clearly state that hot water extraction alone does produce PSK.
 
PSK stands for the following;  "Polysaccharide" = the PS.  The K is "Kureha" or "Kawaratake" (the Japanese name for the mushroom) or "Krestin", the drug name in Japan for PSK that never really caught on.  I have seen all three words used to stand for the K in PSK.
 
Kureha has sold billions of dollars worth of PSK to the national insurance program in Japan.
 
However, Kureha does not even use the patented process to make their product for the Japanese market.  They grow mycelium in liquid and use that as the raw material to extract from.  They grow it in large stainless steel bio-=reactors.  However, you do not need to save money on the mycelium, it is the cheapest part of the entire process.  You sterilize broth in the bio-reactor (grain and water), introduce a live culture, and 48 hours later and you have metric tons of mycelium. It is almost free.  To use their process, of increasing alkalinity which then forces you to salt it out would be hundreds if not thousands of times more expensive that just making a straight hot water extract (dehydrated) at 42% - 46% polysaccharide.
 
That is the potency of PSK sold in Japan, so obviously they are not using the patented process if the patented process doubles and triples recovery of actives.  In fact 10% of the PSK sold on the Japanese market is made in China and extracted from mushroom fruit bodies.
 
"PSK" has been part of various scams since its inception.  All PSK really is, according to the manufacturing patent, is a cell wall extract from the fruit bodies or mycelium Coriolus versicolor.

 

Food for thought, right

[normalizing]

wow! i was just reading how expensive PSK is, like in the $1000 and to figure its scam, those people should be shot. imagine how many people spent their savings for this in belief their health will get better and having being lied to!

 

speaking of scammers, this is another one i will mention. mushroom wisdom! their product Amyloban® 3399 from Lion's Mane  is $80, but its absolute turd! of course i didnt pay that damn much for it, it was long time ago on sale so i paid half that BUT regardless the usual price is damn high for something that doesnt work! i chugged shitload of those caps and no effect.

here is what it states to have; Amyloban® 3399 is made from a unique and innovative extract concentrating active compounds from the Lion's Mane mushroom. This extract, called Amycenone® contains amyloban and hericenones shown to support healthy brain function

 

here are the label ingredients; Ingredients
Lion's Mane (Hericium erinaceus) Fruiting Body Extract, Amycenone®, Standardized to contain 6% amyloban including hericenones 1,950 mg†

 

 

realmushrooms, from your recommendation to check labels for % bio-active constituents and extraction methods, this supplement will seem reliable in the case but it did not work at all and im questioning few things in here, LIKE, what the hell is amycenone? i checked and i couldnt find any such patent. the fuck is this bullshit? 6% amyloban?? WTF IS AMYLOBAN? i checked all studies done on lion's mane, using NCBI, there is no existence of amyloban anywhere! wtf is amyloban? someone help me, maybe im just stupid!? does amyloban exist???

Edited by normalizing, 20 January 2016 - 02:48 AM.

[EFTANG]

[...] mushroom wisdom! their product Amyloban® 3399 from Lion's Mane  is $80, but its absolute turd! of course i didnt pay that damn much for it, it was long time ago on sale so i paid half that BUT regardless the usual price is damn high for something that doesnt work! i chugged shitload of those caps and no effect.

here is what it states to have; Amyloban® 3399 is made from a unique and innovative extract concentrating active compounds from the Lion's Mane mushroom. This extract, called Amycenone® contains amyloban and hericenones shown to support healthy brain function

 

here are the label ingredients; Ingredients
Lion's Mane (Hericium erinaceus) Fruiting Body Extract, Amycenone®, Standardized to contain 6% amyloban including hericenones 1,950 mg†

 

 

realmushrooms, from your recommendation to check labels for % bio-active constituents and extraction methods, this supplement will seem reliable in the case but it did not work at all and im questioning few things in here, LIKE, what the hell is amycenone? i checked and i couldnt find any such patent. the fuck is this bullshit? 6% amyloban?? WTF IS AMYLOBAN? i checked all studies done on lion's mane, using NCBI, there is no existence of amyloban anywhere! wtf is amyloban? someone help me, maybe im just stupid!? does amyloban exist???

 

Mushroom Wisdom is run by some very smart people. Their products are without exception mixes of a bit of extract and a lot of unprocessed powder. Cheap to produce and sold for a high price.

 

Their main product was and is the Maitake D-Fraction. Check the latest newsletter by oriveda (jump to the 'Commercial Maitake Extracts' paragraph) and read about Mushroom Wisdom and how they apparently manipulate their D-Fraction customers (many of which are probably battling cancer).

 

It's all legal but morally speaking pretty questionable. Their Amyloban product is something similar I guess. They cannot specify hericones (because no reference material exists and it cannot be synthesized yet, at least AFAIK) but suggest the product is full of it. They will not show you a COA.

 

Amyloban is their own invention and no trace in scientific literature exists. The name is probably based on 'amyloid beta-peptide' a substance linked to Alzheimer's disease. They have several pending patents (which have not been granted, even after 7 years of pending ??) which are also used smartly in their marketing. Most people assume that a patent stands for 'scientifically validated', which is not the case at all. It is just locking down a unique way of doing something.

 

Often, companies don't even use the patented process when producing their products, because these processes are too expensive (like in the case of PSK or the Maitake D-Fraction / MD-Fraction) and their customers don't know the difference anyway. The high price is another clever trick - it makes people assume the product is valuable (expensive is often associated with 'better quality', LOL).

 

In short, there are many rats out there... always be critical and do your own research.

[Real Mushrooms]

regardless the usual price is damn high for something that doesnt work! i chugged shitload of those caps and no effect.

What effect are you expecting?

 

How are you measuring such effects?

 

The thing with mushrooms, as adaptogens, is that the effect are very hard to quantify. It's not like "i have a headache. i take an aspirin. my headache goes away".

 

I remember looking up Amyloban before. Only thing I found was:

 

http://www.townsendl...eneuro1014.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....?term=Amycenone

 

Not much.