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How harmful is bodybuilding and high-protein diet?

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#1 Maecenas

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:59 PM


I wonder what long term effect will a high-protein diet (2g of protein per kg of bodymass) have on longevity. As far as I know animal protein in the diet is strongly associated with longevity in many studies. What protein intake can be considered critical to shortening a lifespan?


Edited by Maecenas, 31 October 2015 - 05:00 PM.

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#2 gamesguru

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 09:34 PM

Depends on the source, if it's hemp and grass fed whey protein, it's certainly not as bad as if it's from regular ground beef or pizza and milkshakes.  Obviously keep cholesterol in check[1].

 

Heart disease

...though this study is slightly flawed in that it replaces refined carbs with protein, when healthy controls should be eating unrefined carbs...
Protein, body weight, and cardiovascular health
Widespread popularity of high-protein diets has drawn controversy as well as scientific interest. By reducing intake of carbohydrates and increasing consumption of fats and proteins, such diets are thought to increase satiety, facilitate weight loss, and improve cardiovascular risk factors. In recent years, many randomized controlled studies have compared the effects of higher-protein diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors with those of lower-protein diets. The aim of this review was to provide an overview of experimental and epidemiologic evidence regarding the role of protein in weight loss and cardiovascular risk. Emerging evidence from clinical trials indicates that higher-protein diets increase short-term weight loss and improve blood lipids, but long-term data are lacking. Findings from epidemiologic studies show a significant relationship between increased protein intake and lower risk of hypertension and coronary heart disease. However, different sources of protein appear to have different effects on cardiovascular disease. Although optimal amounts and sources of protein cannot be determined at this time, evidence suggests a potential benefit of partially replace refined carbohydrates with protein sources low in saturated fats.
Hu et al (50) found that exchange of poultry or fish for red meat was associated with a significantly decreased risk of CHD.
...but they also have good things to say about animal protein...
Clinical trials suggest that the exchange of protein (either animal or plant) for carbohydrates improves blood lipid profiles. Epidemiologic studies have linked high-protein intake with lower risk of hypertension and CHD. In addition, very low levels of animal protein intake have been associated with a significantly increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke.

Associations of Dietary Protein with Disease and Mortality in a Prospective Study of Postmenopausal Women
Some weight loss diets promote protein intake; however, the association of protein with disease is unclear. In 1986, 29,017 postmenopausal Iowa women without cancer, coronary heart disease (CHD), or diabetes were followed prospectively for 15 years for cancer incidence and mortality from CHD, cancer, and all causes. Mailed questionnaires assessed dietary, lifestyle, and medical information. Nutrient density models estimated risk ratios from a simulated substitution of total and type of dietary protein for carbohydrate and of vegetable for animal protein. The authors identified 4,843 new cancers, 739 CHD deaths, 1,676 cancer deaths, and 3,978 total deaths. Among women in the highest intake quintile, CHD mortality decreased by 30% from an isoenergetic substitution of vegetable protein for carbohydrate (95% confidence interval (CI): 0.49, 0.99) and of vegetable for animal protein (95% CI: 0.51, 0.98), following multivariable adjustment. Although no association was observed with any outcome when animal protein was substituted for carbohydrate, CHD mortality was associated with red meats (risk ratio = 1.44, 95% CI: 1.06, 1.94) and dairy products (risk ratio = 1.41, 95% CI: 1.07, 1.86) when substituted for servings per 1,000 kcal (4.2 MJ) of carbohydrate foods. Long-term adherence to high-protein diets, without discrimination toward protein source, may have potentially adverse health consequences.

 

Cancer

It is now eight years since the famous Ornish study was published, suggesting that 12 months on a strictly plant-based diet could reverse the progression of prostate cancer. For those unfamiliar with that landmark Ornish study, see Cancer Reversal Through Diet?, which the Pritikin Foundation followed up on with Ex Vivo Cancer Proliferation Bioassay.

Wait a second. How were they able to get a group of older men to go vegan for a year? They home delivered prepared meals to their doors, I guess figuring men are so lazy they’ll just eat whatever is put in front of them.

But what about out in the real world? Realizing that we can’t even get most men with cancer to eat a measly five servings of fruits and veggies, in a study profiled in my video, Prostate Cancer Survival: The A/V Ratio, researchers settled on just trying to change their A to V ratio—the ratio of animal to vegetable proteins—and indeed were successful in cutting this ratio by at least half, from about two to one animal to plant, to kind of half vegan, one to one.

How’d the men do? Their cancer appeared to slow down. The average PSA doubling time (an estimate of how fast the tumor may be doubling in size) in the “half vegan” group slowed from 21 months to 58 months. So the cancer kept growing, but with a part-time plant-based diet they were able to slow down the tumor’s expansion. What Ornish got, though, was an apparent reversal in cancer growth—the PSA didn’t just rise slower, it trended down, which could be an indication of tumor shrinkage. So the ideal A to V ratio may be closer to zero.

If there’s just no way grandpa’s going vegan, and we just have half-measures, which might be the worst A and the best V? Eggs and poultry may be the worst, respectively doubling and potentially quadrupling the risk of cancer progression in a study out of Harvard. Twice the risk eating less than a single egg a day and up to quadruple the risk eating less than a single daily serving of chicken or turkey.

And if we could only add one thing to our diet, what would it be? Cruciferous vegetables. Less than a single serving a day of either broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, or kale may cut the risk of cancer progression (defined as the cancer coming back, spreading to the bone, or death) by more than half.

The animal to plant ratio might be useful for cancer prevention as well. For example, in the largest study ever performed on diet and bladder cancer, just a 3% increase in the consumption of animal protein was associated with a 15% higher risk of bladder cancer, whereas a 2% increase in plant protein intake was associated with a 23% lower risk. Even little changes in our diets can have significant effects.

What else might help men with prostate cancer? See Flaxseed vs. Prostate Cancer and Saturated Fat & Cancer Progression.

 

Incongruent findings as regards cognitive health

Effect of a high protein meat diet on muscle and cognitive functions: A randomised controlled dietary intervention trial in healthy men☆
Background
Recommendations to use other criteria than N-balance for defining protein requirements have been proposed. However, little evidence to support other measures such as physiological functions is available.
Objective
To investigate the effects of a usual (UP) versus a high protein (HP) diet on muscle function, cognitive function, quality of life and biochemical regulators of protein metabolism.
Design
A randomised intervention study was conducted with 23 healthy males (aged 19–31 yrs). All subjects consumed a Usual Protein (UP) diet (1.5 g protein/kg BW) for a 1-wk run-in period before the intervention period where they were assigned to either a UP or a High Protein (HP) diet (3.0 g protein/kg BW) for 3-wks with controlled intake of food and beverages. Blood and urine samples were taken along with measurements of physiological functions at baseline and at the end of the intervention period.
Results
The HP group improved their reaction time significantly compared with the UP group. Branched chain amino acids and phenylalanine in plasma were significantly increased following the HP diet, which may explain the improved reaction time.
Conclusion
Healthy young males fed a HP diet improved reaction time. No adverse effects of the HP diet were observed.

Dietary composition modulates brain mass and solubilizable Aβ levels in a mouse model of aggressive Alzheimer's amyloid pathology
Objective
Alzheimer's disease (AD) is a progressive neurodegenerative disease of the central nervous system (CNS). Recently, an increased interest in the role diet plays in the pathology of AD has resulted in a focus on the detrimental effects of diets high in cholesterol and fat and the beneficial effects of caloric restriction. The current study examines how dietary composition modulates cerebral amyloidosis and neuronal integrity in the TgCRND8 mouse model of AD.
Methods
From 4 wks until 18 wks of age, male and female TgCRND8 mice were maintained on one of four diets: (1) reference (regular) commercial chow; (2) high fat/low carbohydrate custom chow (60 kcal% fat/30 kcal% protein/10 kcal% carbohydrate); (3) high protein/low carbohydrate custom chow (60 kcal% protein/30 kcal% fat/10 kcal% carbohydrate); or (4) high carbohydrate/low fat custom chow (60 kcal% carbohydrate/30 kcal% protein/10 kcal% fat). At age 18 wks, mice were sacrificed, and brains studied for (a) wet weight; (b) solubilizable Aβ content by ELISA; © amyloid plaque burden; (d) stereologic analysis of selected hippocampal subregions.
Results
Animals receiving a high fat diet showed increased brain levels of solubilizable Aβ, although we detected no effect on plaque burden. Unexpectedly, brains of mice fed a high protein/low carbohydrate diet were 5% lower in weight than brains from all other mice. In an effort to identify regions that might link loss of brain mass to cognitive function, we studied neuronal density and volume in hippocampal subregions. Neuronal density and volume in the hippocampal CA3 region of TgCRND8 mice tended to be lower in TgCRND8 mice receiving the high protein/low carbohydrate diet than in those receiving the regular chow. Neuronal density and volume were preserved in CA1 and in the dentate gyrus.
Interpretation
Dissociation of Aβ changes from brain mass changes raises the possibility that diet plays a role not only in modulating amyloidosis but also in modulating neuronal vulnerability. However, in the absence of a study of the effects of a high protein/low carbohydrate diet on nontransgenic mice, one cannot be certain how much, if any, of the loss of brain mass exhibited by high protein/low carbohydrate diet-fed TgCRND8 mice was due to an interaction between cerebral amyloidosis and diet. Given the recent evidence that certain factors favor the maintenance of cognitive function in the face of substantial structural neuropathology, we propose that there might also exist factors that sensitize brain neurons to some forms of neurotoxicity, including, perhaps, amyloid neurotoxicity. Identification of these factors could help reconcile the poor clinicopathological correlation between cognitive status and structural neuropathology, including amyloid pathology.


Edited by gamesguru, 31 October 2015 - 09:41 PM.


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#3 proileri

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 03:38 PM

In general, exercise and good-quality protein supplements seem to benefit longevity, especially when it comes to elderly where frailty and inactivity are significant risk factors. Supplements like whey protein are mostly seen as beneficial, as they have other health benefits in addition to muscle upkeep, for example with cardiological markers and immunity. Of course some protein sources like red meat are less healthy.   

 

I think the worst health effects when it comes to bodybuilding are caused by PED abuse, but this is rarely an issue for the average gym member. Second 'risk' is focusing purely on resistance exercise and ignoring cardio, as cardio brings most system-wide health benefits. The way I see it, resistance exercise keeps your muscles in shape, which enables you to reap greater cardio benefits.      


Edited by proileri, 01 November 2015 - 03:39 PM.

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#4 niner

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 08:22 PM

If you eat a low protein diet, then your body will get the amino acids it needs by disassembling existing proteins.  This process is called autophagy, and autophagy is very good.  Over time, proteins get damaged.  They get oxidized, glycated, and crosslinked, and these things make them work poorly or not at all.  Damaged proteins are a particular problem in long-lived nerve cells, which leads to neurodegeneration, but they are a general problem everywhere.   A low protein diet is associated with longer lifespans.  There's a problem, though-- at very old age, sarcopenia becomes a bigger problem, so you need more protein to fend it off.  The best plan seems to be eating a low protein diet until the age of 65, then raising protein levels in order to maintain muscle mass.  OK, that's great, but what if you want to have big muscles while you're young enough for them to do you some good?  This is a bit of a problem-- it looks like giant muscles are not very compatible with a very long life.   There might be a partial way to get around this, though.  One of the major negative aspects of a high protein diet comes from the high methionine that goes along with it.  Glycine is involved in methionine metabolism, and glycine tends to be low in a lot of diets.  If you supplement glycine, it can act like a methionine-restriction mimetic.  This might help on the longevity front even though you have a relatively high protein diet.  It would still be a good idea to not try to get enormous. 


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#5 gamesguru

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 08:55 PM

Role of autophagy in heart failure associated with aging.
Heart failure is a progressive disease, leading to reduced quality of life and premature death. Adverse ventricular remodeling involves changes in the balance between cardiomyocyte protein synthesis and degradation, forcing these myocytes in equilibrium between life and death. In this context, autophagy has been recognized to play a role in the pathophysiology of heart failure. At basal levels, autophagy performs housekeeping functions, maintaining cardiomyocyte function and ventricular mass. Autophagy also occurs in the failing human heart, and upregulation has been reported in animal models of pressure overload-induced heart failure. Although the factors that determine whether autophagy will be protective or detrimental are not well known, the level and duration of autophagy seem important. Autophagy may antagonize ventricular hypertrophy by increasing protein degradation, which decreases tissue mass. However, the rate of protective autophagy declines with age. The inability to remove damaged structures results in the progressive accumulation of 'garbage', including abnormal intracellular proteins aggregates and undigested materials such as lipofuscin. Eventually, the progress of these changes results in enhanced oxidative stress, decreased ATP production, collapse of the cellular catabolic machinery, and cell death. By contrast, in load-induced heart failure, the extent of autophagic flux can rise to maladaptive levels. Excessive autophagy induction leads to autophagic cell death and loss of cardiomyocytes and may contribute to the worsening of heart failure. Accordingly, the development of therapies that up-regulate the repair qualities of the autophagic process and down-regulate the cell death aspects would be of great value in the treatment of heart failure.

The role of autophagy in cancer development and response to therapy
Autophagy is a process in which subcellular membranes undergo dynamic morphological changes that lead to the degradation of cellular proteins and cytoplasmic organelles. This process is an important cellular response to stress or starvation. Many studies have shed light on the importance of autophagy in cancer, but it is still unclear whether autophagy suppresses tumorigenesis or provides cancer cells with a rescue mechanism under unfavourable conditions. What is the present state of our knowledge about the role of autophagy in cancer development, and in response to therapy? And how can the autophagic process be manipulated to improve anticancer therapeutics?

Protein glycation, diabetes, and aging.
Biological amines react with reducing sugars to form a complex family of rearranged and dehydrated covalent adducts that are often yellow-brown and/or fluorescent and include many cross-linked structures. Food chemists have long studied this process as a source of flavor, color, and texture changes in cooked, processed, and stored foods. During the 1970s and 1980s, it was realized that this process, called the Maillard reaction or advanced glycation, also occurs slowly in vivo. Advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs) that form are implicated, causing the complications of diabetes and aging, primarily via adventitious and crosslinking of proteins. Long-lived proteins such as structural collagen and lens crystallins particularly are implicated as pathogenic targets of AGE processes. AGE formation in vascular wall collagen appears to be an especially deleterious event, causing crosslinking of collagen molecules to each other and to circulating proteins. This leads to plaque formation, basement membrane thickening, and loss of vascular elasticity. The chemistry of these later-stage, glycation-derived crosslinks is still incompletely understood but, based on the hypothesis that AGE formation involves reactive carbonyl groups, the authors introduced the carbonyl reagent aminoguanidine hydrochloride as an inhibitor of AGE formation in vivo in the mid 1980s. Subsequent studies by many researchers have shown the effectiveness of aminoguanidine in slowing or preventing a wide range of complications of diabetes and aging in animals and, recently, in humans. Since, the authors have developed a new class of agents, exemplified by 4,5-dimethyl-3-phenacylthiazolium chloride (DPTC), which can chemically break already-formed AGE protein-protein crosslinks. These agents are based on a new theory of AGE crosslinking that postulates that alpha-dicarbonyl structures are present in AGE protein-protein crosslinks. In studies in aged animals, DPTC has been shown to be capable of reverting indices of vascular compliance to levels seen in younger animals. Human clinical trials are underway.

 

 

not sure of the methionine, but there are positive effects on glutathione

Effect of whey protein isolate on intracellular glutathione and oxidant-induced cell death in human prostate epithelial cells.
Cysteine is the rate-limiting amino acid for synthesis of the ubiquitous antioxidant glutathione (GSH). Bovine whey proteins are rich in cystine, the disulfide form of the amino acid cysteine. The objective of this study was to determine whether enzymatically hydrolyzed whey protein isolate (WPI) could increase intracellular GSH concentrations and protect against oxidant-induced cell death in a human prostate epithelial cell line (designated RWPE-1). Treatment of RWPE-1 cells with hydrolyzed WPI (500 microg/ml) significantly increased intracellular GSH by 64%, compared with control cells receiving no hydrolyzed WPI (P<0.05). A similar increase in GSH was observed with N-acetylcysteine (500 microM), a cysteine-donating compound known to elevate intracellular GSH. In contrast, treatment with hydrolyzed sodium caseinate (500 microg/ml), a cystine-poor protein source, did not significantly elevate intracellular GSH. Hydrolyzed WPI (500 microg/ml) significantly protected RWPE-1 cells from oxidant-induced cell death, compared with controls receiving no WPI (P<0.05). The results of this study indicate that WPI can increase GSH synthesis and protect against oxidant-induced cell death in human prostate cells.

 

 

various sources raising various concerns, for both prolonged high and low protein

WebMD

The Risks of High-Protein, Low-Carb Diets
Some experts have raised concern about high-protein, low-carb diets.

  • High cholesterol. Some protein sources -- like fatty cuts of meat, whole dairy products, and other high-fat foods      can raise cholesterol, increasing your chance of heart disease. However, studies showed that people on the Atkins diet for up to 2 years actually had decreased “bad” cholesterol levels.
  • Kidney problems. If you have any kidney problems, eating too much protein puts added strain on your kidneys. This could worsen kidney function.
  • Osteoporosis and kidney stones. When you're on a high-protein diet, you may urinate more calcium than normal. There are conflicting reports, but some experts think this could make osteoporosis and kidney stones more likely.

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MayoClinic

For most healthy people, a high-protein diet generally isn't harmful, particularly when followed for a short time. Such diets may help with weight loss by making you feel fuller [protein promotes satiety, and burns 1 calorie for every 4 processed]

However, the risks of using a high-protein diet with carbohydrate restriction for the long term are still being studied. Several health problems may result if a high-protein diet is followed for an extended time:

  • Some high-protein diets restrict carbohydrate intake so much that they can result in nutritional deficiencies or insufficient fiber, which can cause problems such as bad breath, headache and constipation.
  • Some high-protein diets include foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products, which may increase your risk of heart disease.
  • A high-protein diet may worsen kidney function in people with kidney disease because your body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.

If you want to follow a high-protein diet, choose your protein wisely. Good choices include soy protein, beans, nuts, fish, skinless poultry, lean beef, pork and low-fat dairy products. Avoid processed meats.

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Diet high in protein, processed meat raises risk of diabetes
Lisbon, Portugal - Results of a large population-based study show that a high protein intake is associated with an increased incidence of type 2 diabetes. In presenting their results here at the European Association for the Study of Diabetes (EASD) 2011 Meeting, Swedish researchers suggest that replacing protein with carbohydrates, especially breads and cereals rich in fiber, may be preferable for avoiding incident diabetes.

Diets low in carbohydrates but high in protein and fat have shown positive effects on weight reduction and glycemic control, but other studies have shown that a high protein intake, especially animal protein such as processed meats, is associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes.

Lead author Ulrika Ericson (Lund University, Malmö, Sweden) told meeting attendees that the study included 27 140 individuals (10 550 men) 45 to 73 years old who participated in the Malm ö Diet and Cancer Cohort and did not have diabetes at baseline. The researchers gathered information on weight, height, lifestyle, and socioeconomic factors. Dietary data were obtained through a seven-day registration of cooked meals, a detailed 168-item questionnaire covering other meals, and a 45-minute interview.

Between 1991 and 2006, 1709 incident cases of type 2 diabetes were identified. Using a Cox proportional hazards model with adjustment for several potential confounders, researchers found that, for both genders, participants with the highest intakes of protein were at increased risk of developing diabetes, Ericson told the audience. The highest quintile of protein intake was associated with a 37% increased risk of type 2 diabetes compared with the lowest quintile (hazard ratio  =1.37; p for trend <0.001).

High intake of processed meat was also associated with an elevated risk of diabetes (p=0.01), as was intake of poultry and eggs. There was no association of diabetes risk with intake of fish or red meat, but when all animal sources of dietary protein were considered together, an increased risk was seen. "So this indicates that protein per se may be of importance," Ericson concluded.

"For carbohydrate intake, we did not find any overall association with type 2 diabetes," she said. "However, we found significant interaction with sex (p=0.02). In men, high carbohydrate intake tended to be protective," reducing the risk of type 2 diabetes by about 23%. There was no significant effect of carbohydrate intake for women. Overall, fat intake was not associated with the risk of incident diabetes, but there was trend toward protection for women in the highest quintile of fat intake.

For both men and women, fiber intake was not associated with any change in risk, but the intake of fiber-rich breads and cereals showed a significant association with reduced risk of type 2 diabetes, with the highest quintile of intake having an HR of approximately 0.71 (p=0.002).

In summary, Ericson said a protective association exists with a high intake of fiber-rich breads and cereals. And although high protein intake has been shown to be effective for short-term weight loss and glycemic control, it is associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes. So the results of this trial suggest caution when considering high-protein diets. However, she said it is too early to make dietary recommendations based merely on the observed associations.

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GoAskAlice

Dear SMS,

Beans, seafood, poultry, meat, and eggs. These are just a few sources for protein. Our bodies need protein for numerous functions. Hemoglobin, which carries oxygen, is an essential protein that gives blood its red color when oxygenated. Antibodies, which act as defenders against disease, are composed of proteins. Hormones, some of which are made from amino acids (the building blocks of protein), regulate many systems in our bodies. These include the regulation of metabolism, digestion, and nutrient absorption, and the concentration of blood glucose. Proteins are also used by our cells to regulate the distribution of water and the movement of nutrients in and out of cells, particularly since proteins are one of the components of cell membranes. Furthermore, proteins are involved in blood clotting, acid-base balance, and visual pigmentation.

 

Considering we need protein to help our bodies carry out and sustain essential physiological functions, a diet very low in protein is obviously not a good idea. The good news is that it is not difficult to obtain sufficient protein from our diet and most Americans have no trouble doing so. Dietary protein can be obtained from animal and vegetable sources. If your diet is insufficient in protein, you could also be deficient in many important vitamins and minerals found in protein-rich foods. Deficiencies could occur in niacin, thiamin, riboflavin, B-12, B-6, iron, zinc, and calcium, among others, depending on what foods are missing from your diet. The effects of prolonged low protein in the diet would eventually manifest themselves as impaired immune function, and irregularities in other bodily functions and systems described above.



#6 gamesguru

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 03:58 PM

Second 'risk' is focusing purely on resistance exercise and ignoring cardio, as cardio brings most system-wide health benefits. The way I see it, resistance exercise keeps your muscles in shape, which enables you to reap greater cardio benefits.      

 

Effects of resistance training on arterial stiffness: a meta-analysis [weight training stiffens arteries, cardio relaxes them]

Resistance Training Is Associated With Lower Arterial Compliance and Higher Blood Pressure [a case for cardio and mindful eating]

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Effects of age and aerobic capacity on arterial stiffness in healthy adults.
Aerobic exercise training reduces arterial stiffness in metabolic syndrome

 

So almost a 1:1 ratio of strength training:cardio is recommended.

But strength training appears helpful in arthritis, degenerative disc disease, and some autoimmune diseases or cancers of the connective tissue [basically physical therapy, sources: MayoClinic, webMD].



#7 platypus

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 04:19 PM

Carrying muscle-tissue is very good for one's health and ergo weight-training is very very important:

The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease

 

http://ajcn.nutritio.../84/3/475.short

 

My take is that 2*30 minutes of HIIT per week is plenty as far as cardio is concerned. 


Edited by platypus, 05 November 2015 - 04:20 PM.

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#8 nowayout

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 04:32 PM

For muscle you need less protein than bro-science claims - the typical sources for those claims are heavily supported by supplement advertisers.  I have come to the conclusion that the idea that you need lots of protein intake to build muscle is a myth.  I think you really have to go out of your way NOT to get enough protein in your diet. 

 

I have always done weightlifting.  I have been on high-protein diets (lots of whey, etc.) in the past.  Now I have been on a much lower protein diet for a couple of years where many days all I'll have for protein specifically is maybe one or two servings of greek yoghurt or some eggs, besides vegetables.  I don't even eat beans or other pulses except occasionally. 

 

Neither high- nor low-protein diets have made the slightest difference to my muscle mass, which is good enough that I often get complimented on my body.  The only difference is that high protein diets tend to bloat my face (and my GI system), so I am well rid of that. 


Edited by nowayout, 05 November 2015 - 04:38 PM.

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#9 platypus

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 04:51 PM

Well, adding 2*20 grams of high quality whey on training days and the following day made a large difference in results for me personally. There is evidence that eating 20+ grams of protein and creatine after training plus drinking a slow-release protein blend before going to bed increases gains. 


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#10 nowayout

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 05:32 PM

Well, adding 2*20 grams of high quality whey on training days and the following day made a large difference in results for me personally.

 

But was it the protein or the training?  I think a lot of guys increase training and protein at the same time, so maybe it is not the protein.  I also think there is a large placebo effect - people think they are stronger and train harder (therefore growing more) because they think the protein helps, even if it is really the positive attitude and resulting training that is doing the trick.   Also, a lot of people increase calories overall while they increase protein, so the effect of protein on its own is hard to disentangle. 

 

I am not saying you are wrong, just that I am not convinced you are right. :)

 


Edited by nowayout, 05 November 2015 - 05:33 PM.

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#11 platypus

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 06:25 PM

 

Well, adding 2*20 grams of high quality whey on training days and the following day made a large difference in results for me personally.

 

But was it the protein or the training? 

I think it was the protein. Ask yourself: Am I becoming stronger and building muscle? If the answer is no, the problem could easily be your diet. 



#12 proileri

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:30 PM

 

Yes, although it should be noted that this is for high-intensity resistance exercise, which I take to be training with near-max. loads to failure.

 

Moderate intensity resistance exercise is not associated with stiffening of arteries. IIRC, high-intensity resistance exercise can send your blood pressure so high that it's actually slightly harmful to blood vessels, which explains why it tends to increase arterial stiffness. This seems to be true when you push yourself to the limit - I have noticed that when I do the last set to failure, I certainly feel my BP spiking to slightly unpleasant levels, more so than during the sets before the last one. 

 

In any case, cardio is associated with most health gains, so that's why I consider cardio the primary form of exercise and resistance training the secondary, meaning that you should do at least as much cardio as resistance training, or somewhat more.

 

 

 

 

But was it the protein or the training?  I think a lot of guys increase training and protein at the same time, so maybe it is not the protein.  I also think there is a large placebo effect - people think they are stronger and train harder (therefore growing more) because they think the protein helps, even if it is really the positive attitude and resulting training that is doing the trick.   Also, a lot of people increase calories overall while they increase protein, so the effect of protein on its own is hard to disentangle. 

 

I am not saying you are wrong, just that I am not convinced you are right. :)

 

 

It seems that ingestion of 20 g of whey increases the protein synthesis for 3-4 hours, after which muscles are ready for next amino acid influx and the cycle can be repeated. Ingesting more protein than this doesn't cause any extra benefits. However, the 20 grams is for people around 20s, and the amino acid triggering seems to become somewhat less sensitive over age, so add +5 g for every 10 years of age. This is scaling from research that optimal whey dose seems to be 40 g for people in their 60s.

 

Protein dosing: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23459753/

 

Also, slow release protein seems to help keep protein synthesis slightly activated during sleep, which is somewhat beneficial. Normally during fasting for 8 hours or so, the protein synthesis stops and there's even a small amount of muscle breakdown going on, which slow release protein helps to prevent.

 

Night time protein: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25926415

 


Edited by proileri, 05 November 2015 - 07:34 PM.


#13 nowayout

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:00 PM

 

Also, slow release protein seems to help keep protein synthesis slightly activated during sleep, which is somewhat beneficial. Normally during fasting for 8 hours or so, the protein synthesis stops and there's even a small amount of muscle breakdown going on, which slow release protein helps to prevent.

 

Night time protein: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25926415

 

 

A possible problem with this study - they showed a difference in muscle mass gain by comparing a bedtime protein drink with a non-caloric placebo.

 

So the difference could have been simply due to bedtime calories, not specifically protein. Maybe the non-caloric placebo simply caused satiety and thereby caused the placebo group to reduce overall calories, for example, so the placebo group may effectively have been dieting as a result. 

 

The other study you quoted just looked at biopsied biomarkers over some hours after exercise, and didn't look at muscle mass gain over time, so one cannot conclude much from it.


Edited by nowayout, 06 November 2015 - 03:01 PM.


#14 proileri

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 11:46 PM

 

 

A possible problem with this study - they showed a difference in muscle mass gain by comparing a bedtime protein drink with a non-caloric placebo.

 

So the difference could have been simply due to bedtime calories, not specifically protein. Maybe the non-caloric placebo simply caused satiety and thereby caused the placebo group to reduce overall calories, for example, so the placebo group may effectively have been dieting as a result. 

 

The other study you quoted just looked at biopsied biomarkers over some hours after exercise, and didn't look at muscle mass gain over time, so one cannot conclude much from it.

 

 

Ah, I thought that was the study with the overnight synthesis rates. Here's one where protein was administered via nasal tube middle of sleep, which addresses the satiety question. Well, it could still be the calories, but at least you know that night time protein will increase MPS: http://www.ncbi.nlm....bmed/21917635/ 

 

For the other study, I'd say 12 h MPS rate is a decent indicator of dosing. It would be interesting to see the rates over 48 h etc., though.

 

I think both of these studies help to suggest a direction, but finding optimal approaches will take some more research.


Edited by proileri, 06 November 2015 - 11:48 PM.


#15 niner

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 09:17 PM

Here's a pretty good review on the nutritional aspects of muscle growth. Attached File  Nutrition-muscle-protein-synth-Koopman2007.pdf   215.35KB   20 downloads  Looking at it, I noticed something I didn't know-- The time dependence of protein consumption on muscle growth is different in the young and old.  The young have a wide window in which to consume protein, but in the old, if they don't get it soon after a workout, it won't help as much.


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#16 proileri

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 04:01 AM

Here's a pretty good review on the nutritional aspects of muscle growth. attachicon.gifNutrition-muscle-protein-synth-Koopman2007.pdf  Looking at it, I noticed something I didn't know-- The time dependence of protein consumption on muscle growth is different in the young and old.  The young have a wide window in which to consume protein, but in the old, if they don't get it soon after a workout, it won't help as much.

 

Consuming protein soon after exercise probably is beneficial, although in that study they seem to have used only 10 grams of protein. Recent research has shown that seniors benefit from higher amount of protein, current dosing recommendation being 35-40 grams for seniors and 20 g for young people. 

 

40 g of whey seems to boost muscle protein synthesis even without exercise, but effect with exercise is higher: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22698458


Edited by proileri, 08 November 2015 - 04:09 AM.

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#17 fntms

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 08:00 AM

On the heart issue, I think it was more or less admitted that mild cardio after heavy lifting was enough to reverse or at least limit the potential long term damage the lifting does to the heart.

#18 TheFountain

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:57 AM

Carrying muscle-tissue is very good for one's health and ergo weight-training is very very important:

The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease

 

http://ajcn.nutritio.../84/3/475.short

 

My take is that 2*30 minutes of HIIT per week is plenty as far as cardio is concerned. 

Or just do some damn Jump roping a couple times a week and ride a bike to work a couple times a week. 


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#19 TheFountain

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 07:21 PM

So should we start taking Trehalose (A known Autophagy inducer) or not? 



#20 proileri

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 01:07 PM

Carrying muscle-tissue is very good for one's health and ergo weight-training is very very important:

The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease

http://ajcn.nutritio.../84/3/475.short

 

My take is that 2*30 minutes of HIIT per week is plenty as far as cardio is concerned. 

 

 

My impression from reading some health benefits vs. dosing cardio studies was that the first 1-2 sessions per week were the ones with most health impact, and the benefits didn't improve with more than 3-4 sessions per week. Of course, resistance exercise could be counted as light cardio. Personally my HR tends to be around 90-110 during a gym session. 

 

BTW that article about muscle vs. health connection is interesting, I should read more about it. 


Edited by proileri, 11 November 2015 - 01:21 PM.

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#21 aza

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 10:35 AM

You dont necessarily need that much protein, here is a good article. http://bayesianbodyb...r-bodybuilders/

"There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee.

This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.".

 

Also niner, wouldn't intermittent fasting (along with glycine) be an easier alternative to eating a low protein diet until the age of 65?



#22 proileri

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 03:57 PM

Some new study that has been making the newspaper rounds.

 

 

Gerontology. 2015 Nov 10. [Epub ahead of print]

Kicking Back Cognitive Ageing: Leg Power Predicts Cognitive Ageing after Ten Years in Older Female Twins.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Many observational studies have shown a protective effect of physical activity on cognitive ageing, but interventional studies have been less convincing. This may be due to short time scales of interventions, suboptimal interventional regimes or lack of lasting effect. Confounding through common genetic and developmental causes is also possible.

OBJECTIVES:

We aimed to test whether muscle fitness (measured by leg power) could predict cognitive change in a healthy older population over a 10-year time interval, how this performed alongside other predictors of cognitive ageing, and whether this effect was confounded by factors shared by twins. In addition, we investigated whether differences in leg power were predictive of differences in brain structure and function after 12 years of follow-up in identical twin pairs.

METHODS:

A total of 324 healthy female twins (average age at baseline 55, range 43-73) performed the Cambridge Neuropsychological Test Automated Battery (CANTAB) at two time points 10 years apart. Linear regression modelling was used to assess the relationships between baseline leg power, physical activity and subsequent cognitive change, adjusting comprehensively for baseline covariates (including heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, fasting blood glucose, lipids, diet, body habitus, smoking and alcohol habits, reading IQ, socioeconomic status and birthweight). A discordant twin approach was used to adjust for factors shared by twins. A subset of monozygotic pairs then underwent magnetic resonance imaging. The relationship between muscle fitness and brain structure and function was assessed using linear regression modelling and paired t tests.

RESULTS:

A striking protective relationship was found between muscle fitness (leg power) and both 10-year cognitive change [fully adjusted model standardised β-coefficient (Stdβ) = 0.174, p = 0.002] and subsequent total grey matter (Stdβ = 0.362, p = 0.005). These effects were robust in discordant twin analyses, where within-pair difference in physical fitness was also predictive of within-pair difference in lateral ventricle size. There was a weak independent effect of self-reported physical activity.

CONCLUSION:

Leg power predicts both cognitive ageing and global brain structure, despite controlling for common genetics and early life environment shared by twins. Interventions targeted to improve leg power in the long term may help reach a universal goal of healthy cognitive ageing.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26551663


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#23 LaViidaLocaa

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 05:04 PM

 

Some new study that has been making the newspaper rounds.

 

 

Gerontology. 2015 Nov 10. [Epub ahead of print]

Kicking Back Cognitive Ageing: Leg Power Predicts Cognitive Ageing after Ten Years in Older Female Twins.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Many observational studies have shown a protective effect of physical activity on cognitive ageing, but interventional studies have been less convincing. This may be due to short time scales of interventions, suboptimal interventional regimes or lack of lasting effect. Confounding through common genetic and developmental causes is also possible.

OBJECTIVES:

We aimed to test whether muscle fitness (measured by leg power) could predict cognitive change in a healthy older population over a 10-year time interval, how this performed alongside other predictors of cognitive ageing, and whether this effect was confounded by factors shared by twins. In addition, we investigated whether differences in leg power were predictive of differences in brain structure and function after 12 years of follow-up in identical twin pairs.

METHODS:

A total of 324 healthy female twins (average age at baseline 55, range 43-73) performed the Cambridge Neuropsychological Test Automated Battery (CANTAB) at two time points 10 years apart. Linear regression modelling was used to assess the relationships between baseline leg power, physical activity and subsequent cognitive change, adjusting comprehensively for baseline covariates (including heart disease, diabetes, blood pressure, fasting blood glucose, lipids, diet, body habitus, smoking and alcohol habits, reading IQ, socioeconomic status and birthweight). A discordant twin approach was used to adjust for factors shared by twins. A subset of monozygotic pairs then underwent magnetic resonance imaging. The relationship between muscle fitness and brain structure and function was assessed using linear regression modelling and paired t tests.

RESULTS:

A striking protective relationship was found between muscle fitness (leg power) and both 10-year cognitive change [fully adjusted model standardised β-coefficient (Stdβ) = 0.174, p = 0.002] and subsequent total grey matter (Stdβ = 0.362, p = 0.005). These effects were robust in discordant twin analyses, where within-pair difference in physical fitness was also predictive of within-pair difference in lateral ventricle size. There was a weak independent effect of self-reported physical activity.

CONCLUSION:

Leg power predicts both cognitive ageing and global brain structure, despite controlling for common genetics and early life environment shared by twins. Interventions targeted to improve leg power in the long term may help reach a universal goal of healthy cognitive ageing.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26551663

 

 

Interesting, indeed. Unfortunately, it is not to the same extent as bodybuilding and high protein diets and also done as a basic strength test in females that are older than most bodybuilders. Strength is undoubtedly linked to benefits regarding aging (fighting off osteoporosis, preventing fractures, etc.), but I'm hoping the Glycine trick will cover the higher methionine contents of higher protein diets.



#24 proileri

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 06:29 PM

 


 

Interesting, indeed. Unfortunately, it is not to the same extent as bodybuilding and high protein diets and also done as a basic strength test in females that are older than most bodybuilders. Strength is undoubtedly linked to benefits regarding aging (fighting off osteoporosis, preventing fractures, etc.), but I'm hoping the Glycine trick will cover the higher methionine contents of higher protein diets.

 

 

I wonder if I should have posted it in the Aging+Exercise instead.

 

Anyways, they didn't seem to speculate on the cause too much, but it's most likely something like leg strength and regular exercise correlate, and exercise leads to better brain health through BDNF, blood flow etc. So quite possibly nothing directly muscle related, except that it's good to upkeep muscle condition.  


Edited by proileri, 20 November 2015 - 06:33 PM.


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#25 Multivitz

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 01:24 PM

80% of exercise results are diet dependent, some are lucky at thier progress.
You'll be suprised how little protien is required once a muscle has acclimatised.
I found Silica to be important, but the real way our bodies use the diet is found in anciet theories. Many find them woo woo, but there's a guy called Alex Putney that can explain transmutation very well. The body works fine if it's getting into balance after exercise, the triangle to life, work rest eat, rest is a time to reflect, work is the load we do, eat is taking onboard things we feel necessary.
If you feel you want to do more and rest ain't working, maybe the time your rest should be spent reflecting on improving what you eat? Most things like carbo loading, interval training, meal strategies are for someone who is at peak fitness already and has an adequate diet, so they believe!
Self improvement is good, there are many variables, some take time to realise(learn, discover), if realised in a lifetime as one knows it!

Edited by Multivitz, 16 December 2015 - 01:25 PM.

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