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Angry, irritable the next day after exercise

sleep exercise mood 5htp

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#1 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 01:26 AM


My doctor says that it is simply impossible. Also, even if I exercise before noon, it negatively affects my sleep. My sleep is superficial and I toss and turn the whole night.

 

And the next day I am very irritable and grumpy.

 

I've been taking Tryfonia (5-HTP) which supports serotonin biosynthesis and it is somewhat helpful but maybe there is something that can make me even less moody.

 

My exercise routine involves 15-20 minutes of light cardio and 20 minutes of light strength training. The more intense my routine, the stronger it impacts my sleep and mood.

 

Any advice would be appreciated!



#2 aconita

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 08:01 AM

You likely get very irritable and grumpy because your sleep is superficial and you toss and turn the whole night.

 

Ashwagandha, schisandra and theanine are some supplements may help to relax a bit.

 

In my experience a good meal which includes plenty of carbs immediately after training has a very calming effect, in alternative a protein shake (50 gr whey and 100gr maltodextrines or dextrose) should do.

 

By the way 20 minutes of light cardio is a waste of time as probably is 20 minutes of light strength training.

 

What is your age, body composition, nutrition, goal?

 


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#3 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 02:32 PM

Aconita, thank you for responding!

 

I am a 36 old female with slender body composition.

 

My goal is to maintain lean slender physique; and this 40 minute exercise routine 3 times per week perfectly fulfills the goal. I eat healthy (fruits, veggies, lean meat, dark chocolate, various supplements), no caffeine, no alcohol, etc. I can certainly do more than 40 minutes but then I get to the point when I start having nightmares and my sleep gets much worse. 

 

One a few occasions, I took Zopiclone (a strong hypnotic agent) in order to induce sleep. So although I had a sound sleep, the next day I was very irritable. Also, sometimes if I don't sleep because I accidentally drank caffeine, for example, my mood is quite stable despite not having ideal sleep. Hence, I don't think that I get moody because of lack of sleep.

 

I've tried Ashwagandha and theanine in the past but I didn't find them particularly helpful (maybe one brand is more helpful than another?). And I've tried eating carbs/protein after training. I also tried eating carbs before sleep, etc. In fact, it is easier to say what I haven't tried :) during all those years since I had this problem in early teenage times. Nothing really made a significant difference. The problem stops when I stop exercising but this is not an option.

 

 

 



#4 platypus

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 03:32 PM

Have you tried exercising early in the morning? Perhaps adding a walk to your exercise regime on the days that you exercise could help - usually if people have spent enough energy moving during the day they will have no trouble falling asleep. 



#5 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 05:10 PM

Have you tried exercising early in the morning? Perhaps adding a walk to your exercise regime on the days that you exercise could help - usually if people have spent enough energy moving during the day they will have no trouble falling asleep. 

 

 

Yes, I have tried exercising early in the morning. It does not change a thing. Walking disturbs my sleep as well.

 

Is it possible that adrenaline that is released during exercise stays longer in my system than in other people? 

 

Maybe my adrenaline rush from epinephrine is stimulating my body for hours...



#6 platypus

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:33 PM

Walking disturbs your sleep? Do you really sleep well every day you mainly sat around and did not exercise?



#7 aconita

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:23 PM

I can certainly do more than 40 minutes

 

I don't suggest to train longer but eventually smarter, like 4 minutes Tabatas instead of 20 minutes cardio which would be much more effective and less boring.

 

More intensity in the weight room would lead to more satisfying results too but right now we have got a major issue which rules out those changes because, as you say, your symptoms would probably worsen by much.

 

From what you say everything seems to point in the direction of a dopamine intolerance, since neurotransmitters are a bit tricky to test due to the many interactions they have I may suggest an easier approach to verify if what I suspect is true: try to take something like 500mg L-dopa (no tea or chocolate, please) in a non training day and see if the effects replicate those you do experience when training.

 

If the test is positive we know where the issue is and we may try to find a way to tackle it.

 

Grumpiness and mood swings next day at this point may well be due to low seratonine because of the dopamine peak caused by training.

 

Do you eat enough fats?

 

 

 

 



#8 Juangalt

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 01:55 AM

I definitely am affected by exercise as well. I believe it's somewhere low on the bipolar spectrum(my dad is bipolar). When I start exercising regularly I get extremely mild mania which can cause repetitive thoughts and affect my sleep particularly at night. Total caffeine and alcohol avoidance works best for me, along with high CBD indica and/or melatonin/diphenhydramine ONLY when I can feel that nighttime anxiety. Extreme exercise can cause a lot of inflammation which can also cause anxiety, but it doesn't sound like your routine is overly intense.

 

I also take, GABA, Theanine, Insistol, B-vitamins to help sleep problems I get from alcohol related delirium tremens (also a mild form), when I do drink (which is rare). But this is not important to you unless you drink alcohol.


Edited by Juangalt, 12 January 2016 - 01:58 AM.


#9 aconita

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:48 AM

Typical of dopamine!

 

You may try the same as suggested in my previous post: take 500mg L-dopa and see how it will effect you (likely very bad).

 

Actually your symptoms are even more clearly pointing in that direction than those of the tread author.

 

I am ready to bet I am right.:)



#10 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 04:16 PM

@aconita Thank you for the suggestion! I will definitely try it. I eat fats with every meal: nuts, seeds, oily fish, caviar, olive oil with salads, avocado, etc.

 

@Juangalt That is exactly how I would describe it as well: mild mania. Repetitive thoughts, restlessness, low concentration and nasty mood!

 

@platypus Yes, walking is like exercising for me. When I don't exercise my sleep is generally good.



#11 aconita

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 05:56 PM

At this point I am 99,99% sure its a dopamine issue.

 

Possibly a deficiency or anomaly of the enzyme monoamine oxidase (MAO), the enzyme responsible for breaking down dopamine in the synaptic cleft.

 

Both caffeine and alcohol affect dopamine increasing it (guess why you don't like those).

 

Since gluten contains a neuropeptide which enhances dopamine activity I suggest to avoid it at all.

 

https://en.wikipedia...noamine_oxidase

 

 

 

 

 

 



#12 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 05:59 PM

I have not found L-dopa online. Can I take L-tyrosine instead?



#13 aconita

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 06:11 PM

http://www.powdercit...s-powder-dosage


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#14 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 06:25 PM

I just ordered it.



#15 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:03 AM

Aconita, how would explain the effects opiates have on my system since opiates increase the amount of dopamine?

 

My doctor prescribed me a coughing syrup and it felt really good  :-D

 

Typical of dopamine!

 

You may try the same as suggested in my previous post: take 500mg L-dopa and see how it will effect you (likely very bad).

 

Actually your symptoms are even more clearly pointing in that direction than those of the tread author.

 

I am ready to bet I am right. :)

 



#16 aconita

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 11:28 AM

It is not easy....

 

High dopamine tends to induce psychosis up to very worrying levels.

 

Recreational drugs tend to enhance dopamine production and are enhanced by high dopamine.

 

For a subject suffering from high dopamine the use of recreational drugs leads generally to unpleasant outcomes because of psychotic behavior or insurgence of psychosis that may even trigger mental illness as schizophrenia and such.

 

Recreational drugs are not all the same, opiates are very calming in their effects and I may guess that very calming effect responsible to counteract the psychotic one (ever tried opiates with LSD, especially if the trip gets a bit "out of control"?).

 

Neurotransmitters anomalies are not all the same either.

 

For example a friend of mine is schizophrenic to the point is on constant medications, even a short walk may trigger unpleasant symptoms, smoking pot for him is a no no thing....but when a schizophrenia attack comes a couple of beers do have a very calming effect on him, even better than valium and he uses beer as a medicament in fact.

 

It should make no sense because alcohol is known to exacerbate dopamine far more than a short walk but for him it doesn't works that way (schizophrenia is not just high dopamine anyway).

 

Another friend of mine is a maniac depressive, neurotransmitters are involved here too, he smokes dope as there is no tomorrow and even beer is not an issue for him.

 

It's tricky.

 

Slightly higher than normal dopamine tends to push individuals towards recreational drugs because the reward is much greater than for "normal" individuals but higher dopamine levels will scare away from most recreational drugs because the psychotic effects they will trigger.

 

In other words I suspect anyone here has to find out what works and what doesn't for himself since we are all different.

 

The advise would be to not underestimate the psychotic effects of certain substances or behaviors (like exercising in your case) because there might be a possibility to not "come back" and having to deal with a mental condition for the rest or great part of life.

 

Another weird case: a friend of mine, a recreational drugs user (mainly pot) apparently without any issue, once took some LSD (it wasn't the first time by any means), everything as usual but he didn't come back.

 

He remained in a tripping status as under the LSD effect for years until one day he snorted some cocaine for the first time (I am talking about a long time ago, the '70s, when cocaine wasn't very common at all in the hippies communities, at least here).

 

Immediately after snorting cocaine he suddenly come back from that LSD trip that lasted maybe 10 years or so.

 

He became a cocaine addict for quite a few years after that but it is another story....  :) 


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#17 aconita

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 09:35 PM

I suggest to research a bit what supplementing Uridine Monophosphate, maybe stacked with GPC, B12 (or all B complex) and fish oil.

 

It seems to have a noticeable effect in normalizing dopamine receptors, a very possible cure for your issues.

 

This is a short overview :

 

http://methamphetami...receptor-repair

 

It mentions this tread too which is way more comprehensive:

 

http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

 


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#18 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:25 AM

I am taking fish oil, B complex and B12. I am still contemplating if the issue is really with dopamine or not. Because food high in amines (dark chocolate, avocado, lemons, walnuts) don't cause any digestive trouble or bad mood.

 

When I am not exercising and eating all those high in amines food, then, in theory, I should experience some of the following symptoms:

 

recurrent eczema and hives, headaches or migraines, sinus trouble, mouth ulcers, fatigue (frequently feeling rundown and tired for no apparent reason), nausea, stomach pains, joint pain that is undiagnosed and digestive issues.

 

But I don't. When I get L-dopa, I will be able to have a better idea if that is really an issue. Thanks for the suggestion!



#19 aconita

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 01:57 PM

Those are symptoms related to amines allergy, I doubt you are allergic to amines, in fact you don't experience those issues.

 

Food rich in amines constitute the building material for many neurotransmitters, dopamine included (everything ending with "amine" is obviously an amine/made of amine).

 

If you provide plenty of building material (amines) when dopamine production is triggered (by exercise, in your case) there will be no limit to it causing an overproduction (in your case, if the theory of dopamine causing your issues is right).

 

A diet low in amines may help at least limiting the amount of dopamine building material at disposition.

 

It may well be that the issue are the dopamine receptors and not dopamine itself but anyway less dopamine should mean less symptoms.



#20 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 03:38 PM

It looks like your hypothesis that this is a dopamine issue is not correct :(

 

I took 500 mg of L-dopa powder and it had no effect on me. I slept well and my mood is stable.

 

Maybe it is a cortisol issue....

 

Typical of dopamine!

 

You may try the same as suggested in my previous post: take 500mg L-dopa and see how it will effect you (likely very bad).

 

Actually your symptoms are even more clearly pointing in that direction than those of the tread author.

 

I am ready to bet I am right. :)

 



#21 aconita

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 04:36 PM

That is quite puzzling...

 

Try to take the levodopa before training and see if it makes thing worst or not.

 

 

 

 



#22 aconita

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:45 AM

By the way I don't think cortisol is the issue, for example because insulin is the direct antagonist of it and since your symptoms don't seem to improve with a high carbs post workout meal (which cause an insulin spike) it doesn't make much sense.

 

Cortisol will be high after a bad night sleep and may be responsible for moodiness the next day, but this is because the sleep deprivation not the training itself.



#23 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 05:57 AM

Well, my ND thinks it can be because of stress that I experience during exercise so she prescribed me Phosphatidylserine 100 mg before exercise and 100 mg before sleep. I'll see what it will do. But before that I'll try L-dopa before exercise.



#24 aconita

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 07:17 AM

Phosphatidylserine dosage for cortisol antagonism is usually about 400-500mg/day, if you don't have to pay for it will not do any harm.

 

Insulin is a much cheaper (carbs) and stronger antagonist.

 

I seriously doubt that the kind of exercise you perform itself is able to rise cortisol that much, low progesterone or its imbalance with estrogen may cause high cortisol, if your cortisol is already on the edge it may be possible that even the light training you do is enough to rise it that little bit further to cause what you experience, the classical straw that breaks the camel back.

 

If that is the case the solution is not phosphatidylserine but reestablish an healthy hormonal balance.   

 

I wonder why your MD didn't prescribe you an hormones test to see where you are about...



#25 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 06:37 PM

That's what my ND said as well is that I might have low progesterone.



#26 aconita

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 02:24 AM

What do you know about your thyroid?

 

Cold feet and hands?

 

Uncomfortable in the cold?

 

Tired, frail thin hairs, eyebrows, dry skin...?

 

Basal temperature?



#27 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 02:37 AM

I have hypothyroidism and I've been taking Synthroid for more than 10 years.


Edited by The Beauty of Peace, 25 January 2016 - 02:38 AM.


#28 aconita

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 03:34 AM

Well, the puzzle starts to get a little less puzzling, I guess....:)

 

You should get off that medication for your own good.

 

Probably Iodoral is all you need, a iodine loading test is very advisable (http://www.optimox.c...ne/loadTest.htm).

 

Once you get the test's result I suggest you to contact Dr. Brownstein (https://www.drbrownstein.com/).

 

With such a huge hormonal disruption any further consideration is just a waste of time, once that is fixed you'll see that all your issues would be part of the past.

 

 


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#29 The Beauty of Peace

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 03:51 PM

OMG, my MD will shoot me. What's wrong with taking a synthetic thyroid hormone?

 

My blood results are normal now... I am scared to get off Synthroid alone without anyone's supervision. Maybe I can talk to my ND about that...But NDs are not allowed to override MD's prescriptions...

 

Well, the puzzle starts to get a little less puzzling, I guess.... :)

 

You should get off that medication for your own good.

 

Probably Iodoral is all you need, a iodine loading test is very advisable (http://www.optimox.c...ne/loadTest.htm).

 

Once you get the test's result I suggest you to contact Dr. Brownstein (https://www.drbrownstein.com/).

 

With such a huge hormonal disruption any further consideration is just a waste of time, once that is fixed you'll see that all your issues would be part of the past.

 



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#30 aconita

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 06:03 PM

My blood results are normal now

 

Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily mean your thyroid is doing OK and actually YOU are not doing OK.

 

I am scared to get off Synthroid alone without anyone's supervision

 

In facts I suggest you to talk Dr. Brownstein about it or at least he may be able to direct you to a knowledgeable thyroid specialist near by.

 

Synthroid side effects and implications are not desirable, natural thyroid hormone (http://www.stoptheth...al-thyroid-101/) is way preferable but chances are you may not need that either and Iodoral will fix the issue.

 

Dr. Brownstein books and videos about thyroid (you may find some on youtube) are strongly recommended.

 

Ashamedly thyroid health is surrounded by huge deal of ignorance in the medical community.

 

 


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