27 replies to this topic

[Rib Jig]

Is it time for a well-planned, logical, civilized campaign-movement?

Involving professional lobbyists?

Do we owe it to future generations of human race

that will be pursuing deep space travel that MUST

employ suspended animation?

But for now on Earth, first efforts:

a. only after age ___? 80?

b. only when death is highly probable within ___ days? 100?

c. other?

 

Later, age can be lowered, death requirement extended...

Once revival is routinely successful, any age, no death requirement...

 

Personally know nothing about crowd funding websites;

can such a proposal as raising funds to lobby for

Legalizing Suspended Animation be posted???

 

The longer we delay legalization now, the longer we

delay future progress           

[YOLF]

I'm working on a plan that's a little bit different, but gets the technology moving towards where you want to go and has some other improvements. Interested in working together?

[Rib Jig]

IMO, legalization of suspended animation should disassociate from immortality fever.

The effort should seek support of NASA & other space exploration programs.

If eternal life seekers want to ride coattails once its legalized, so be it.

LegaSuspAnim has no chance of acceptance unless its

connected ONLY with future deep space exploration, IMO,

in which suspended animation is a NECESSITY!!!

 

Edited by Rib Jig, 29 January 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[YOLF]

I think there are more ways to make it happen from a QoL perspective. Imagine using near zero suspended animation a few months at a time and waking periodically to excercise and keep your body in shape if you're suffering from a debilitating disease or something you just don't want to live with. You'd age slower and have a greater chance of making it to aging escape velocity and the cure for your disease. Curing your disease would also become more profitable and you'd have a chance to catch up with a small digest of current events, so you wouldn't be missing out so much and transitioning away from the friends you'd be leaving behind if they didn't attempt to follow you. Then of course you'd be part of a community of patients with a similar experience and these people would become your new friends moving forward.

 

Space travel is cool though, and we do have scientists from NASA who were working on this and that. Not sure about cryonics specifically, but they seem to think if they put enough money into it as a government research program that it will progress. There would be more demand for this if we combine both ideas.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Wait for the results of the suspended animation clinical trail to come, and then fight for the best options with the results behind you.

 

If the suspended animation trail works out, start wanting suspended animation for all who desires it. If it doesnt work out, start wanting more development.

[Rib Jig]

Legalizing suspended animation testing for purposes of future

deep space travel so much more palatable to general populations,

but only if highly restricted at first, e.g., terminally ill.

After successful revivals are routine, anyone over, say, 80????

 

SuspAnim for purposes of eternal life so offensive to some that

it can only hope to be eventually lawful in ultra progressive spots,

e.g., Right to Die states, etc.

[YOLF]

In some areas it is legal, you just have to have a 6 months to live diagnosis. Oregon is one such place, and Oregon Cryonics is there.

[Rib Jig]

Euthanasia is legal in several US states:

https://en.wikipedia...e_United_States

 

Cryonically cooling a living terminally ill person is NOT!!!!!

Cryonic cooling is NOT assisted suicide.

 

That's why cryonics MUST be ripped away

from eternalists & associated with NASA...

Edited by Rib Jig, 01 February 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[YOLF]

If you have six months to live, you can be drugged to death and immediately cryopreserved. Maybe it's not exactly the same, but it is close. I will cede that we should a cool down, but it's always going to be death until we can reverse cryonics.

It's why we need to demonstrate something reversible and show progressive improvements.

[ceridwen]

The problem is my cryonics provider would call this suicide

[Rib Jig]

> Maybe it's not exactly the same, but it is close.

 

Its nowhere close to being same, naturally or otherwise.

Alive --> cryonics --> revived vs. Alive --> dead --> cryonics --> revived;

How many times must one say the latter

^{_{DOESN'T BLOODY EXIST IN NATURE!!!}}       

 

(laymen playing word games with "death" ignored)

Edited by Rib Jig, 01 February 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[YOLF]

Makes sense. So how will you get NASA to put people into suspended animation? It's several months to Mars iirc. Will they develop it for that? I think they'll have to. So who at NASA is working on it? Will going to Mars entail being cryopreserved in suspended animation? I would suddenly not mind going to Mars, in fact, free NASA grade preservation? Hell, yeah, sounds like a greater chance of being revived and rejuvenated. They might even spring for sending us free life extension gene therapy to keep us NASAing more! It sounds like a great idea to me now.

[corb]

Well the problems I see with this are:

1. You're estranging the main userbase for cryonics - you can try to sell it to "normal" people as much as you like, but they neither care about space travel nor are they particularly interested in cryonics.

2. NASA has alternatives - human hibernation is much closer to a working technology than reversible cryonics.

 

If you want to sell cryonics as an idea to the general public you have to go to a much more basic implementation - indefinite preservation of foodstuff - solving world hunger, preparing for disasters yada yada.

 

Space travel hasn't sold anything to anyone in the last 30 years.

[YOLF]

Well the problems I see with this are:

1. You're estranging the main userbase for cryonics - you can try to sell it to "normal" people as much as you like, but they neither care about space travel nor are they particularly interested in cryonics.

2. NASA has alternatives - human hibernation is much closer to a working technology than reversible cryonics.

 

If you want to sell cryonics as an idea to the general public you have to go to a much more basic implementation - indefinite preservation of foodstuff - solving world hunger, preparing for disasters yada yada.

 

Space travel hasn't sold anything to anyone in the last 30 years.

1. What userbase? There was less than 2000 of them last year and many might be signed up at a second provider or two as a show of support or cuz it's free. It's probably closer to 1500. 80% of the population wants to live longer healthier lives in the US.

 

2. Human hibernation is fine if makes you live long enough to reach AEV.

 

No need to solve world hunger, plenty of food, spike it with appetite suppressants and many would get healthier and would leave us with even more. Calorie restriction isn't the alternative to a 2000 calorie diet, it's what our diets should be. We're eating too much, engineering food for more optimal nutrition will also help us meet our food needs. When there are starving people, it's economic and political, not b/c there isn't enough food. North Korea didn't starve cuz there wasn't enough food on planet earth, they starved b/c they had a failure of politics with the rest of the world. It's the same anywhere you go. 

 

If you think about it though, wouldn't the promise of long term preservation after the mission (when you get old) on Mars be a nice benefit? 

[YOLF]

This topic could use a new title, any suggestions?

[corb]

2000 is more than 0.

 

And I didn't say we should use it to tackle "real" problems, I didn't propose food because it's a more real problem than anything else. I think the groups trying to use cryo for organ preservation of donated organs is already going after the most "real" problem usage you can expect for people to agree to with this tech in the foreseeable future.

 

What I'm saying is maybe before trying to push this for human use maybe it should be used for something more acceptable at the base level. If people know we can do this to food and meat, and eventually organs and it's widely used for those things they'll accept it for human use. Maybe. Eventually.

 

I just feel like the whole jumping over to human use and legalizing it is ... a stretch. Maybe I'm too much of a realist.

Edited by corb, 03 February 2016 - 03:30 PM.

[Rib Jig]

> Space travel hasn't sold anything to anyone in the last 30 years.

 

Get real.

Classrooms worldwide follow space travel in real time now.

Politicians budget tax dollars towards space travel.

Governments are NOT overthrown specifically for pursuing space travel.

 

Suspended animation, hibernation, cryonics, whatever,

will be required for deep space travel.

Not to Mars (~300 days one way), not to Jupiter (~6 years one way),

but to other solar systems / galaxies...  (?decades-centuries? one way)

 

As to how to "push" towards legalizing suspended animation wrt NASA,

OP suggested cloud effort, cloud funding of lobbyists, etc.

(1M supporters paypal $1 ea = $1M campaign fund)

(OP has no crowdfunding experience)

 

As to renaming thread,

how about "STAY ON OP TOPIC"

STOP THE APPROPRIATION OF THREAD TOPICS       

Edited by Rib Jig, 03 February 2016 - 04:59 PM.

[YOLF]

2000 is more than 0.

 

And I didn't say we should use it to tackle "real" problems, I didn't propose food because it's a more real problem than anything else. I think the groups trying to use cryo for organ preservation of donated organs is already going after the most "real" problem usage you can expect for people to agree to with this tech in the foreseeable future.

 

What I'm saying is maybe before trying to push this for human use maybe it should be used for something more acceptable at the base level. If people know we can do this to food and meat, and eventually organs and it's widely used for those things they'll accept it for human use. Maybe. Eventually.

 

I just feel like the whole jumping over to human use and legalizing it is ... a stretch. Maybe I'm too much of a realist.

Ok, you're going to have to explain the economics of food cryopreservation... 

[corb]

I think NASA's focus right now is to get people up to the Moon again after 50+ years downtime.

But if you think you can sell them a technology that could potentially be needed for something they don't even consider possible at the moment - do it.
 

I'm sure they'll be interested in it though. In about 200 years.

[mikeinnaples]

I think NASA's focus right now is to get people up to the Moon again after 50+ years downtime.

But if you think you can sell them a technology that could potentially be needed for something they don't even consider possible at the moment - do it.
 

I'm sure they'll be interested in it though. In about 200 years.

 

No, you are misinformed.

 

NASA's goal is putting boots on the ground on Mars and in turning over all routine space flight to the private sector. Not only that, we received funding above our requested budget. Also ...funding for a (non-manned) mission to Europa.

[corb]

 

2000 is more than 0.

 

And I didn't say we should use it to tackle "real" problems, I didn't propose food because it's a more real problem than anything else. I think the groups trying to use cryo for organ preservation of donated organs is already going after the most "real" problem usage you can expect for people to agree to with this tech in the foreseeable future.

 

What I'm saying is maybe before trying to push this for human use maybe it should be used for something more acceptable at the base level. If people know we can do this to food and meat, and eventually organs and it's widely used for those things they'll accept it for human use. Maybe. Eventually.

 

I just feel like the whole jumping over to human use and legalizing it is ... a stretch. Maybe I'm too much of a realist.

Ok, you're going to have to explain the economics of food cryopreservation... 

 

 

Every country has a food reserve that takes up some %  of local food production, typically wheat, rice, etc. Were talking about millions of tons of food in every country.
In the case of the United States you have more than one reserve.

At equal intervals the food in those reserves at least half of it is thrown away due to wastage and replaced. Needless to say that's a tremendous waste of food.

The food in those reserves are far from a "well rounded" diet or even a particularly healthy, but the foodstuffs are chosen for shelf life rather than anything else.

 

One popular use for a large cryo facility could be an improved food reserve. I'm not disregarding the financial side of course, the millions of tons of food you'd typically put in the reserve yearly could be sold instead.

 

This is just one use. Let's look at commerce. Lots of the fish consumed worldwide is deep frozen already. So that would've been a no brainier for the cryo industry to try and compete with existing cooling technologies. I'm surprised they've not tried to take a swing at that market already.

 

I have to make the clarification here - I'm not saying those technologies are not in use or don't exist.
There are cryogenic food freezers, but they've never become widespread, most people don't know they even exist.
They have become slightly more popular recently over some quite eccentric trends in cooking but they're still pretty much unknown to the general public.

 

The first step for people to accept a technology is for them to see it. If people knew they could put grapes in the fridge and take them out in 10 years and they're still edible and above all taste and have the same texture they would have had originally, then people would've been less skeptical.

[corb]

 

I think NASA's focus right now is to get people up to the Moon again after 50+ years downtime.

But if you think you can sell them a technology that could potentially be needed for something they don't even consider possible at the moment - do it.
 

I'm sure they'll be interested in it though. In about 200 years.

 

No, you are misinformed.

 

NASA's goal is putting boots on the ground on Mars and in turning over all routine space flight to the private sector. Not only that, we received funding above our requested budget. Also ...funding for a (non-manned) mission to Europa.

 

 

I thought you'd go to the Moon first and then Mars in the late 2030s. Still I don't see a big push to send a living person anywhere that would require cryo in the foreseeable and probably the unforeseeable future.

 

[Rib Jig]

I'm sure they'll be interested in it though. In about 200 years.

 

Guess again, because that's what you're doing, guessing:

 

"In 2012, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency announced the award of $500,000 to former astronaut Mae Jemison to fund a project with the goal of sending future astronauts out of the Solar System. Jemison aims to increase public interest in future deep space exploration projects.^[7] Upon awarding the money to Jemison, a "100 Year Starship" symposium was held in Houston, Texas to discuss interstellar travel. Topics discussed include "time-distance solutions; life sciences in space exploration; destinations and habitats; becoming an interstellar civilization; space technologies enhancing life on earth; and commercial opportunities from interstellar efforts".^[8]

Research in deep space is ongoing and rapidly developing. In 2011, after the retirement of the space shuttle, NASA announced its intentions to invest money into developing three technologies vital to deep space exploration. The "must-have technologies" include a deep space atomic clock, a large solar sail and a more advanced laser communications system to improve communication, navigation, and propulsion in future missions.^[9] In June 2013, NASA announced the selection of eight American astronauts that will begin to train for future deep space missions beyond low Earth orbit. NASA intends that these eight astronauts to train for future Mars or asteroid travel.^[10]

The Single Aperture Far-Infrared Observatory (SAFIR), a proposed cryogenic space telescope, is tentatively set to launch in 2015 with the hopes of exploring "the formation of the first stars and galaxies" in deep space. The telescope will be more than 1000 times more sensitive than two current telescope spacecrafts, the Spitzer Space Telescope and the Herschel Space Observatory. NASA hopes to use SAFIR to learn about black holes, galaxy formation and evolution and the formation of star systems in the far reaches of space."

 

(from https://en.wikipedia...ace_exploration)

 

A logical precursor to future out-of-solar-system manned travel 

is as-soon-as-possible current legalization of human

suspended animation experimentation...       

 

= terminally ill & elderly men-women sanely donating their final days to science

with an ever-increasing possibility that they might realize a revival bonus as

experimenting breakthroughs are made...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Rib Jig, 03 February 2016 - 06:04 PM.

[corb]

 

A logical precursor to future out-of-solar-system manned travel 

is as-soon-as-possible current legalization of human

suspended animation experimentation...       

 

 

And here my friend is where you miss the point completely.
Legalization is a political process.

 

Let's look at what needs to happen for cryogenic preservation of an ALIVE PERSON WHO WILL HAVE TO BE EUTHANIZED (good luck redefining alive and dead with the ethical committees first off) to be legalized:

 

1. Successful preservation of organs for transplantation - there's been ONE animal study done so far with limited success - that's a START.

2. Preservation of an animal and RESURRECTION (again feel free to voice your opinion about that to an ethical committee headed by a nun, a priest, and a philosophy professor - unfortunately not an uncommon combination in such committees)

 

3. Same study done a couple of times for an extended period - those years are ticking away meanwhile...

 

4. If we even reach that point while both or at least one of us is alive to see it - they might try it on a terminally ill patient around 2070ish.

 

So basically even if the interest is there it's still far future stuff. I don't see it happening anytime soon. And with all the other happenings around the world which I don't want to get into ... yeaaaaah. But let's not go into probable dystopian scenarios.

 

Companies like Alcor dancing around the legal lines (remains to be seen how long they'll manage to do that for) are probably the only hope for cryo to ever be legalized.

 

Again. Legalization starts from public acceptance of an idea. The public right now isn't accepting of it at all. Whether you like it or not.

Edited by corb, 03 February 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[YOLF]

 

 

2000 is more than 0.

 

And I didn't say we should use it to tackle "real" problems, I didn't propose food because it's a more real problem than anything else. I think the groups trying to use cryo for organ preservation of donated organs is already going after the most "real" problem usage you can expect for people to agree to with this tech in the foreseeable future.

 

What I'm saying is maybe before trying to push this for human use maybe it should be used for something more acceptable at the base level. If people know we can do this to food and meat, and eventually organs and it's widely used for those things they'll accept it for human use. Maybe. Eventually.

 

I just feel like the whole jumping over to human use and legalizing it is ... a stretch. Maybe I'm too much of a realist.

Ok, you're going to have to explain the economics of food cryopreservation... 

 

 

Every country has a food reserve that takes up some %  of local food production, typically wheat, rice, etc. Were talking about millions of tons of food in every country.
In the case of the United States you have more than one reserve.

At equal intervals the food in those reserves at least half of it is thrown away due to wastage and replaced. Needless to say that's a tremendous waste of food.

The food in those reserves are far from a "well rounded" diet or even a particularly healthy, but the foodstuffs are chosen for shelf life rather than anything else.

 

One popular use for a large cryo facility could be an improved food reserve. I'm not disregarding the financial side of course, the millions of tons of food you'd typically put in the reserve yearly could be sold instead.

 

This is just one use. Let's look at commerce. Lots of the fish consumed worldwide is deep frozen already. So that would've been a no brainier for the cryo industry to try and compete with existing cooling technologies. I'm surprised they've not tried to take a swing at that market already.

 

I have to make the clarification here - I'm not saying those technologies are not in use or don't exist.
There are cryogenic food freezers, but they've never become widespread, most people don't know they even exist.
They have become slightly more popular recently over some quite eccentric trends in cooking but they're still pretty much unknown to the general public.

 

The first step for people to accept a technology is for them to see it. If people knew they could put grapes in the fridge and take them out in 10 years and they're still edible and above all taste and have the same texture they would have had originally, then people would've been less skeptical.

 

What kind of resources are required to keep grapes in the freezer for 10 years? It costs more than the grapes and takes up space. Turn them into raisins... lots of fruits can be dried that way... I think there are better ways to improve food storage than using cryonics. Cryonics is for when you want it to live again, so rare steak eaters aside, I just don't think it'd go very far. I could be wrong, who knows, especially with a dollar a head/yr storage prices... but it's not got=ing to get stored with heads, so at best, you'll [reserve livestock for a post apocolyptic word... still better to freeze embryos and use artificial uteri...

[Rib Jig]

Legalization is a political process.

And here my friend is where you miss the point completely.

 

 

What part of my previous post do you NOT understand?:

 

"As to how to "push" towards legalizing suspended animation wrt NASA,

OP suggested cloud effort, cloud funding of lobbyists, etc"

"Lobbyists" infers no, it screams politics...

Edited by Rib Jig, 03 February 2016 - 11:38 PM.

[YOLF]

 

I'm sure they'll be interested in it though. In about 200 years.

 

Guess again, because that's what you're doing, guessing:

 

"In 2012, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency announced the award of $500,000 to former astronaut Mae Jemison to fund a project with the goal of sending future astronauts out of the Solar System. Jemison aims to increase public interest in future deep space exploration projects.^[7] Upon awarding the money to Jemison, a "100 Year Starship" symposium was held in Houston, Texas to discuss interstellar travel. Topics discussed include "time-distance solutions; life sciences in space exploration; destinations and habitats; becoming an interstellar civilization; space technologies enhancing life on earth; and commercial opportunities from interstellar efforts".^[8]

Research in deep space is ongoing and rapidly developing. In 2011, after the retirement of the space shuttle, NASA announced its intentions to invest money into developing three technologies vital to deep space exploration. The "must-have technologies" include a deep space atomic clock, a large solar sail and a more advanced laser communications system to improve communication, navigation, and propulsion in future missions.^[9] In June 2013, NASA announced the selection of eight American astronauts that will begin to train for future deep space missions beyond low Earth orbit. NASA intends that these eight astronauts to train for future Mars or asteroid travel.^[10]

The Single Aperture Far-Infrared Observatory (SAFIR), a proposed cryogenic space telescope, is tentatively set to launch in 2015 with the hopes of exploring "the formation of the first stars and galaxies" in deep space. The telescope will be more than 1000 times more sensitive than two current telescope spacecrafts, the Spitzer Space Telescope and the Herschel Space Observatory. NASA hopes to use SAFIR to learn about black holes, galaxy formation and evolution and the formation of star systems in the far reaches of space."

 

(from https://en.wikipedia...ace_exploration)

 

A logical precursor to future out-of-solar-system manned travel 

is as-soon-as-possible current legalization of human

suspended animation experimentation...       

 

= terminally ill & elderly men-women sanely donating their final days to science

with an ever-increasing possibility that they might realize a revival bonus as

experimenting breakthroughs are made...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well they are working on the 100 year space ship, but last I heard they were making it an intergenerational spaceship... though that was Michio Kaku who put it that way, he's not all that educated on cryonics. Alcor did a response video to his cryonics statements.

[Antonio2014]

There is absolutly no need of suspended animation for reaching Mars. It's only a six months trip, one-way, the same as the usual stay in the ISS. Assuming fairly low efficiency in recycling (80% for oxygen and drinking water, and 90% for washing water) and using NASA standards for human consumption (but using mostly whole food instead of dehydrated food), a 1 year round-trip travel + 500 days of stay in Mars surface would need only around 7 tonnes of supplies for a 4 astronauts crew (data from Mars Direct mission architecture).