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The dark side of curcumin

curcumin cancer dna damage

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#1 gambler180

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 07:10 AM


What are your thoughts on this? I thought that curcumin was safe and that it could be used to kill cancer cells, but according to this letter/article it can in some cases cause DNA damage and cancer and might do other unwanted things as well.

http://onlinelibrary.../ijc.24967/full

 


Edited by gambler180, 24 February 2016 - 07:10 AM.


#2 Kalliste

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 05:51 PM

 

Most of the evidence that supports the therapeutic potential of curcumin is mainly based on in vitro studies in which curcumin was tested at concentrations in the micromolar range. Several reports have demonstrated, however, that the plasma concentrations of curcumin in people taking relatively high oral doses of this compound are very low, typically in the nanomolar range (reviewed in Ref. 4). For instance, a recent study examined the pharmacokinetics of a curcumin preparation in 12 healthy human volunteers 0.25–72 hr after an oral dose of 10 or 12 g. Using a high-performance liquid chromatography assay with a limit of detection of 50 ng mL−1, only 1 subject had detectable free curcumin at any of the time points assayed.5 The fact that curcumin also undergoes extensive metabolism in intestine and liver6, 7 means that high concentrations of curcumin cannot be achieved and maintained in plasma and tissues after oral ingestion. This is a major obstacle for the clinical development of this agent and suggests that the therapeutic potential of oral curcumin is limited. The low clinical efficiency of curcumin in the treatment of several chronic diseases such as Alzheimer's disease and cardiovascular diseases has been discussed recently.8

 

See my thread :

http://www.longecity...olites-in-vivo/

 

 

Several other lines of evidence raise concern about curcumin safety. Curcumin was recently found to be an active iron chelator in vivo and to induce a state of overt iron deficiency anemia in mice fed with diets poor in iron.58 This suggests that curcumin has the potential to affect systemic iron metabolism, particularly in people with suboptimal iron status.58, 59

 

Why not :ph34r:

Novel di-2-pyridyl–derived iron chelators with marked and selective antitumor activity: in vitro and in vivo assessment

http://www.bloodjour...so-checked=true

 

CHRONIC ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION-INDUCED INCREASE IN SKIN IRON and THE PHOTOPROTECTIVE EFFECT OF TOPICALLY APPLIED IRON CHELATORS

http://onlinelibrary....tb02009.x/full

 

Chelation of lysosomal iron protects against ionizing radiation

http://www.biochemj....ntent/432/2/295

 

 

Most of the papers he refers to are done in mice were the results are often wildly confusing. Also most of the papers he refers to are done on curcumin in isolation, I would like some in vivo human trials on combinations of dietary spices like Curry.

Like this one:

 

Spicy Diet for High Triglycerides?

http://www.smh.com.a...0812-1ipob.html

 

A compound found in turmeric encourages brain repair

http://www.scienceal...ain-cell-growth

 

 

 

 

In general I like the skepticism from that paper, sometimes I get the impression there is a Bharat Aggarwal lead cult of Curcumin researchers, but I still think it looks pretty good.

 


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#3 joelcairo

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 05:59 PM

That letter seems like it's trying too hard to come up with any possible harmful effect. For example the fact that it may chelate iron out of the body. It's important to be aware of such things, but for most men at least, that would be one of its benefits.

 

Personally I don't think such things should be taken in large doses by healthy young people, and certainly not by women who are pregnant. It's simply not prudent. But for those people suffering from pain & inflammation, heart disease, cancer, etc., while curcumin may not be 100% perfect, it's probably better and safer than all the alternatives.


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#4 Dorian Grey

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 02:54 AM

Iron homeostasis is the reason I take Curcumin... 

 

Lowering even moderately elevated iron through blood donation has been shown helpful in ameliorating iron related inflammation, but it's difficult to tell just how much bloodletting might lower iron deposits within actual cellular structures (mitochondria).  

 

Don't know if Curcumin does this either, but I take it on the chance it might.  I keep my blood ferritin down around 50 (through blood donation), but when I take Curcumin, even with this low blood ferritin, it turns my stool dark brown (rust colored), which leads me to believe it might help the liver shed excess iron through bile.  Interestingly, quercetin, another super-food component is also a known iron chelator.  

 

Citation needed, I know, but I really think I'm on to something with my low iron protocol.  My co-workers do a double take when I tell them I'm turning 60 this year, and I haven't lead a very healthy life as a long time bachelor.  Brewskies, dining out, (don't shoot) tobacco, and...  Remarkably good health.  I've donated blood off and on since I was 30, long before I got on the iron homeostasis bandwagon and I've been aging like Dorian Gray.  


Edited by synesthesia, 25 February 2016 - 03:08 AM.

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#5 niner

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 07:53 PM

Here is a great paper that compares all the published pharmacokinetic data from the various advanced curcumin formulations.  If it's really the case that you'd need 5-50 uM for several hours in order to kill a cancer cell, then it's pretty clear you aren't getting that systemically unless maybe you megadose one of the formulated varieties.  Things might be different in the gut, and there's a lot more to curcumin than killing cancer cells.  The Dark Side paper is a little on the paranoid side, but I suppose that's not so bad when everyone treats curcumin like it's mother's milk.   When you take a compound with good epidemiology around dietary exposure, then you concentrate it and formulate it for higher bioavailability, you are no longer looking at the dietary situation.  It's now a pharmacological situation, and needs to be treated as such.


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#6 Never_Ending

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 02:49 PM

My thought is that the study is a pathetic attempt to discredit the benefits of curcumin.   Don't know how safe curcumin is, and this is not targeting any other studies evaluating risks of curcumin.  Studies that show the negative side to certain beneficial substances are sometimes educational , but not this study.


Edited by Never_Ending, 26 February 2016 - 02:56 PM.

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#7 albedo

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 04:57 PM

I take iron chelation as positive news for men, certainly for me when looking at my historic of ferritin. I am trying hard and had some success mainly including IP6.

 

Even if the Life Extension Foundation is to my taste sometimes biased, the Table 2 in their last March 2016 magazine gives a good synthesis of the positive studies and mechanisms of action (Table 2: Curcumin and Cancer-Prevention Mechanisms).

 

I recollect a concern I had a couple of years ago when I read of a study showing inactivation of p53, in particular in the case of colon cancer where curcumin is supposed to be most beneficial, e.g. see HERE . It was in an article by Scientific American, “Spice Healer” HERE , where the authors quoted two other negative studies (next to a higher number of positive ones) one of which also pointed to degradation of p53 in the case of myeloid leukemia. However, if I google scholar on curcumin and p53 today you have a very large number of studies showing p53 activation and even p53-independent apoptosis role again for colon cancer. So it looks pretty clear to me where the balance tips today. Having said that, if you get cancer, you need to look careful at curcumin possible inhibitor or enhancer role of the activity of your chemotherapy and you need to discuss carefully with your oncologist.

 

Also, I disliked a letter concluding that, being the number of studies showing positive effects of curcumin much higher than that showing negative effects, it might indicate that there are more researchers evaluating the beneficial effects of curcumin than evaluating its toxicity. It does not sound logical to me and even a bit nasty toward the authors of positive studies as if they were taking dreams for reality.

 

Until I see a much more solid evidence, I err on the safe side with a small dose and use the BCM-95 sold by LEF. I like its anti-inflammatory action and I might have also seen a positive effect on my PSA when in combination with green tea, I3C/DIM and pomegranate extracts.

 

I keep my eye open but this letter honestly does not scary me.

 

PS Thank you Niner for having posted that nice paper.


Edited by albedo, 26 February 2016 - 05:00 PM.


#8 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:43 AM

I've noticed curcumin takes away my sex drive completely; like, not even a morning erection most days. 3000mg tumeric caps, 3 times a day, 4 days per week

 


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#9 Dorian Grey

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:31 PM

I take one Life Extension Super Bio-Curcumin (400mg micronized) and one generic turmeric (300mg 95% curcuminoids) per day and I'm hornier than a horny toad, even at 60 years of age. 

 

3000mg 3X/day (9000mg) turmeric may be a bit excessive.  More is not always better!  

 

It might be interesting to try a lower dose of enhanced absorption curcumin to see if it gave the same effect.  It may be the excess co-factors in high dose turmeric are causing these symptoms.

 

I take one turmeric cap/day to provide co-factors many feel are important, but as curcumin is the primary beneficial component, I rely on the LE enhanced absorption curcumin for the primary beneficial effect.  

 

Hopefully, I'm getting the best of both worlds, without side effects.  



#10 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:41 PM

sorry, I meant 1000mg, 3 times a day... 3000 mg total, four days per week



#11 ironfistx

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:15 PM

The aspect I remember most about curcumin is that it gave me diarrhea further on in the day after I took it. One other thing is i couldn't get a boner even while trying to get aroused.
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#12 D12A

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:33 PM

Iron homeostasis is the reason I take Curcumin... 

 

Lowering even moderately elevated iron through blood donation has been shown helpful in ameliorating iron related inflammation, but it's difficult to tell just how much bloodletting might lower iron deposits within actual cellular structures (mitochondria).  

 

Don't know if Curcumin does this either, but I take it on the chance it might.  I keep my blood ferritin down around 50 (through blood donation), but when I take Curcumin, even with this low blood ferritin, it turns my stool dark brown (rust colored), which leads me to believe it might help the liver shed excess iron through bile.  Interestingly, quercetin, another super-food component is also a known iron chelator.  

 

Citation needed, I know, but I really think I'm on to something with my low iron protocol.  My co-workers do a double take when I tell them I'm turning 60 this year, and I haven't lead a very healthy life as a long time bachelor.  Brewskies, dining out, (don't shoot) tobacco, and...  Remarkably good health.  I've donated blood off and on since I was 30, long before I got on the iron homeostasis bandwagon and I've been aging like Dorian Gray.  

 

Resurrecting older thread but due to your obsession with lowering iron, I wonder if you saw this huge wall of text: http://freetheanimal...everything.html



#13 Dorian Grey

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 01:14 AM

Oh Yes!  Richard Nikoley's blog post on iron is a great global look at how iron fortification of foods may have effected late 20th & 21st Century America.  His take on how the obesity epidemic first appeared within 10 years of the time America INCREASED the amount of iron in fortified foods (in the 80s) is particularly intriguing.  The cause/effect smoking gun is missing from this argument (association does not equal causation), but it is rather odd how non-fortified Europe lagged so far behind America's obesity problem.  How might iron fortification cause obesity?  I don't know, but it's interesting farmers give antibiotics to livestock to increase growth/weight...  How do antibiotics effect growth/weight?  Do the fires of inflammation increase fuel consumption and hunger?  

 

The Health-e-Iron sites's Iron Resources Library contains another small ocean of studies on how iron effects inflammation, health and longevity.  

 

http://www.healtheir...science-library

 

And Bill Sardi's "A Unifying Theory of Aging" is also good.  

 

http://www.longevine...of-aging-part1/

http://www.longevine...f-aging-part-2/

http://www.longevine...f-aging-part-3/

http://www.longevine...f-aging-part-4/

 

Ray Peat rounds out the argument well too! http://raypeat.com/a...n-dangers.shtml

 

Back to the topic at hand...  With no way of excreting iron, save bloodletting, the few supplements documented to help chelate iron are truly a God-Send.  

Curcumin...  Extremely benign, safe and effective.

Quercetin...  The magical stuff in fruits and vegetables everyone knows we should be eating, but few actually consume as a primary dietary component.

IP6...  The other magical stuff found in grains & seeds.  Another very benign supplement, and at 10 cents/capsule, what a bargin!  

 

The iron issues with aging and disease is getting more and more attention over the last few years.  Ray Peat, Joe Mercola, Bill Sardi & Richard Nikoley have gotten the ball rolling.  Is there enough momentum to help save humanity from themselves?  Time will tell.  I thank God there at least are survival strategies for those forced to live in an iron fortified world, & Curcumin is a big part of this.  


Edited by synesthesia, 25 December 2016 - 01:20 AM.

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#14 nightlight

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 08:22 AM

Don't know if Curcumin does this either, but I take it on the chance it might.  I keep my blood ferritin down around 50 (through blood donation),

 

How often do you donate?



#15 Dorian Grey

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 04:09 PM

I've donated over 5 gallons of whole blood between the ages of 30 & 60.  The iron is in the red cells, so platelet & plasma donations will not lower iron.  

 

If ferritin is at all elevated (150+) then aggressive donation (every other month) may be required to bring it down close to 50.  Each donation is supposed to drop ferritin by 30-50 points.  A lot of ferritin is stored in tissues, primarily the liver, and when you first get ferritin down near 50 it tends to bounce back swiftly as the body pulls stored iron out of the liver.  

 

Once you've "de-ironed" yourself, which typically takes 4-6 donations the first year, a more modest schedule of 2-3 times a year is all it takes to keep ferritin out of triple digits and in the safe zone.  With regular use of chelators like Curcumin, Quercetin or IP6, once a year donation may be possible to maintain good iron homeostasis.  

 

 


Edited by synesthesia, 25 December 2016 - 04:14 PM.


#16 ironfistx

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 11:02 PM

lol someone voted my post as pointless. I'd say diarrhea is a dark side of the supplement.
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#17 Dorian Grey

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 12:16 AM

lol someone voted my post as pointless. I'd say diarrhea is a dark side of the supplement.

 

Sorry I.F. It wasn't me who voted you down, but I've taken both turmeric and curcumin for years and never experienced loose stool from it or loss of libido. 

 

Were you taking curcumin with piperine?  Perhaps this was the problem.  

 

Heck, I'm 60 years old and horny as a whoot owl.  I drink half a dozen light beers a night (wash my curcumin down with it) and never experience diarrhea from this.  



#18 ironfistx

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 01:21 AM

affirmative, it was vitamin shoppe triple strength turmeric with curcumin
https://www.vitamins...ie-caps/vs-2919 900mg curcumin with 5mg of piperine. I have not used another source.

#19 Dorian Grey

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 05:47 AM

Piperine is extracted from black pepper...  Don't know about you, but I've had GI distress from too much black pepper before.  I know bloody mary's out here on the West Coast are made with lots of black pepper, while back on the East Coast they used tabasco.  I always tolerated Bloody Mary's spiced with tabasco, but the ones full of black pepper go through me like grass through a goose.  

 

Piperine also seems to be an anti-androgen... https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18057734

 

"In addition, the P. nigrum leaf extract showed in vivo anti-androgenic activity using the hair regrowth assay in testosterone sensitive male C57Black/6CrSlc strain mice."

 

http://www.muscletal...s-m3369080.aspx

 

"side effects from 5a-reductase inhibitors include: Impotence, reduced libido, decreased ejaculation volume and sperm quanity/quality"

 

The dark side of Piperine!  This is an important find!  Thanks for the input.  


Edited by synesthesia, 27 December 2016 - 05:53 AM.

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#20 pamojja

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 10:10 AM

The dark side of Piperine!  This is an important find!  Thanks for the input.  

 

Just to put the above into perspective, the most black pepper I consumed was during 6 weeks as 1.5 g Trikatu preparation. Containing equal parts of ginger, long pepper and black pepper, along with additional 750 mg Trikatu extract (non-standartized). 1-2 % piperine in long, and about 5-7 % in black pepper, therefore about 37,5mg piperine from the powdered herb alone. Additionally to 5mg each in a curcumin and a CoQ10 cupsule. No idea how much the extract contained.

 

Didn't use that much Trikatu in the past, but since testing about 4 years my free testosterone always showed below normal range. Last November finally found an endocrinologist which would prescribe TRT. However, at that time my free T rose for the first time, after my yearly high piperine vacation even further, till it ended up in normal range in May. Libido followed.

 

So we are all different, also from mice. If it has a general anti-androgenic activity it must be weak, otherwise I wouldn't have overcome my for many years low T despite such high doses of piperine. And India wouldn't be that populated country it is.

 


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#21 jack black

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 05:01 PM

 


 

Just to put the above into perspective, the most black pepper I consumed was during 6 weeks as 1.5 g Trikatu preparation. Containing equal parts of ginger, long pepper and black pepper, along with additional 750 mg Trikatu extract (non-standartized). 1-2 % piperine in long, and about 5-7 % in black pepper, therefore about 37,5mg piperine from the powdered herb alone. Additionally to 5mg each in a curcumin and a CoQ10 cupsule. No idea how much the extract contained.

 

Didn't use that much Trikatu in the past, but since testing about 4 years my free testosterone always showed below normal range. Last November finally found an endocrinologist which would prescribe TRT. However, at that time my free T rose for the first time, after my yearly high piperine vacation even further, till it ended up in normal range in May. Libido followed.

 

So we are all different, also from mice. If it has a general anti-androgenic activity it must be weak, otherwise I wouldn't have overcome my for many years low T despite such high doses of piperine. And India wouldn't be that populated country it is.

 

 

not sure i follow you. are you saying your free T increased on TRT despite pipering intake?

 


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#22 pamojja

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 06:17 PM

not sure i follow you. are you saying your free T increased on TRT despite pipering intake?

 

Since free and total normalized I never got TRT.
 


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#23 Synaptik

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:41 AM

I ingest 2-3 teaspoons of turmeric + olive oil + black pepper daily. This is obviously for the curcumin content. The biggest downside in my mind, is the potential elevated levels of hevay metals found in certain turmeric products (I'm assuming the same risk would apply to standardized capsules as well). Several brands have been recalled over the years due to high lead/arsenic content. 

 

This worries me somewhat, but the benefits of turmeric are too robust for me to discontinue it presently. Perhaps another scare or two I'll become more apprehensive.... I do have some activated charcoal which I take occasionally which is supposed to bind to lead (and other similar compounds) to eliminate them from the body. Perhaps I should cycle AC for more prolonged usage from time to time.

 

Other than that, I wasn't aware there was a downside to curcumin, unless mega-dosages were used.


Edited by Synaptik, 28 December 2016 - 01:44 AM.


#24 jack black

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:03 AM

This worries me somewhat, but the benefits of turmeric are too robust for me to discontinue it presently.

 

what are those again?
 


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#25 Synaptik

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:24 AM

 

This worries me somewhat, but the benefits of turmeric are too robust for me to discontinue it presently.

 

what are those again?
 

The biggest downside in my mind, is the potential elevated levels of hevay metals found in certain turmeric products (I'm assuming the same risk would apply to standardized capsules as well). 

 



#26 Dorian Grey

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:37 AM

 

This worries me somewhat, but the benefits of turmeric are too robust for me to discontinue it presently.

 

what are those again?
 

 

 

Benefits of turmeric?  3841 results here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../?term=turmeric



#27 jack black

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 11:46 AM

 

 

This worries me somewhat, but the benefits of turmeric are too robust for me to discontinue it presently.

 

what are those again?
 

 

 

Benefits of turmeric?  3841 results here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../?term=turmeric

 

 

i know what literature says (most of those studies are either off topic or will never be confirmed in humans). i'm interested in hearing what actual benefits people feel from this.

 

BTW, synesthesia, are you taking this too? I though your thing was bloodletting only?
 


Edited by jack black, 28 December 2016 - 11:47 AM.

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#28 Dorian Grey

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:13 PM

Bloodletting lowers stored iron which helps lower free/labile iron. It is this unbound iron that does the damage.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14637247

 

Chelators like IP6 & Curcumin go a step further at mopping up iron, which may be responsible for the bulk of their beneficial effects.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16545682

 

Unbound iron is the ultimate pro-oxidant, the hydroxyl radical being the most destructive form of free radical.  Control it any way you can to reduce inflammation and slow aging.  


Edited by synesthesia, 28 December 2016 - 05:25 PM.


#29 jack black

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:17 AM

pointless and unfriendly?

got the message. over and out!

sorry i bothered.


Edited by jack black, 29 December 2016 - 01:19 AM.

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#30 Dorian Grey

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 04:13 AM

Not from me JB.  I enjoy examining a topic from all angles.  


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