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How to pharmacologically cure weed withdrawal insomnia? I did it for alcohol, but weed?

marijuana weed withdrawal rebound thc insomnia

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#1 BLimitless

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 12:55 PM


So I am in a sticky situation. I am currently using medical marijuana but I wish to get off it because I have no further need for it at this time. By the way, hey guys, nice to be talking to y'all again after 2 years! I love this place!

Thread Goals (Teamwork!)
* Identify complete list of withdrawal symptoms for marijuana
* Identify pharmacological profile of each symptom, emphasis on insomnia as primary target
* Identify potential drugs/herbs/misc of interest that can either relieve it completely or help significantly


Anyhow, if I stop cold turkey I end up staying awake for 1 week straight and in the end fall asleep when I get sick and tired of being awake and smoke a little spliff. Trouble is, then I start the whole loop again and go into a zonked out daze, making it impossible to withdraw. Whatever in marijuana makes us pharmacologically sleepy, rebounds heavily and causes maaaaad insomnia.


Now, for alcohol there is something known as glutamate rebound which causes the shakes, agitation, etc. You can solve this quite easily by dosing something which inhibits glutamate and promotes GABA, and it will be as if you had never even got smashed off your tits the night before. I used something like 5g of N-Acetyl-Cysteine, which performs the exact function necessary. So perfect! So clean.

 

You see, if you can pharmacologically identify the exact issue which causes your problem, you can delete a problem out of existence like it was never even there in the first place. So now I ask you people, let us do this with the ganja. I am tired of being constantly stoned now, I want to do things with my day, its medical benefits are no longer all that needed. What would I need to take to withdraw completely and silently without any issues?

For alcohol I invented a 10-12 ingredient formula, a perfect hangover cure. I did this by researching each and every symptom, identifying the pharmacology and adding something to the formula which *directly* targetted it. As a result I could down a whole bottle of vodka or whatever and the next day walk off pretty much scott free. Not that I am condoning that kind of stuff as it is still profoundly unhealthy! But I wish I could do the same for weed because I need to detox off this stuff and I'm stuck in this weed smoking loop, completely trapped. I don't want to "cut down" because my personality doesn't allow it, I smoke like a chimney when I do, I can't stop myself, one leads to the next leads to the next.

I would do research on this but I've been awake for 2 days without a joint and I feel braindead, my mind isn't piecing together anything worthwhile. So Longecity, I ask you to help! Think of how many others are in this situation, we can help countless many lurkers across the internet for the rest of the time Longecity is on the internet. We can invent the perfect formula to detox weed fully and remove all withdrawal symptoms. I did it for alcohol and that recipe is floating around somewhere on the web and helping people out, let's try do one for weed!

Many thanks for reading and even more thanks for participating. I am not ashamed to say my life depends on you. I know I can rely on you lot because you have proven yourselves worthy many times over. <3 - BLimitless



#2 Doc Psychoillogical

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 05:11 PM

Melatonin maybe



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#3 gamesguru

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 07:51 PM

exercise, to wipe you out? valerian, ambien, valium, ghb?

 

just rough it out for a few days?? other symptoms seem to last longer than the insomnia, such as cravings, irritability, and loss of appetite

cravings, irritability, restlessness, insomnia, depression, mania, inattentiveness, vivid dreams, headache, tremors, nausea, stomach pain, lack of appetite, diarrhea, sweating, and chills.

 



#4 BasicBiO

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 09:31 PM

It usually takes me about a week to normalize my sleep schedule after using weed for long periods of time with no break. I tend to use melatonin in high doses as well as diphenhydramine hcl/Benadryl at night to help with sleep.  It can still be a bit rough but is totally doable, even for a weakling like me(loves my sleep). I think there is a acetylcholine rebound after cessation, which may explain why my mind races at night when I take a weed break. This might also explain why Benadryl helps as it is an anticholinergic.

 

Good discussion topic as I've used cannabis for years for insomnia and pain relief, but I probably should take a long holiday from it.



#5 medievil

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 04:47 PM

Ive looked at some papers and like none of the meds tested worked.

 

Controversial discussion, but one of the weaker synthetic cannabinoids in extremely low doses and then slowly withdrawal from it? I dont see an issue with minimal doses that arent psychoactive but would help with the withdrawal, otherwise try herbs that act on cb1, someone posted a list here but dunno where.

 

Either way on the therapeutic potential of small doses of cannabinoids

 

 

Cannabis: Potent Anti-depressant In Low Doses, Worsens Depression At High Doses Date: October 24, 2007 Source: McGill University Summary: A new neurobiological study has found that a synthetic form of THC, the active ingredient in cannabis, is an effective anti-depressant at low doses. However, at higher doses, the effect reverses itself and can actually worsen depression and other psychiatric conditions like psychosis.

This proofs therapeutic doses will be differened to abused doses,

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://veteransforco...n_2008_02_2.pdf pre

 

To prevent abuse a low dose of rimonabant, only allways acertain % of cb1 activation.

 

That said

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://molpharm.aspe.../3/424.full.pdf

 

Upregulate CB1

 

 

 

 

Baclofen in the management of cannabis dependence syndrome
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
 
Abstract

 

 

 

Lithium carbonate in the management of cannabis withdrawal in humans: an open-label study.
Abstract

Cannabis is the most widely used illicit substance in the world. Estimates suggest that approximately 10-20% of cannabis users meet criteria for cannabis dependence and a significant proportion experience withdrawal discomfort on cessation of use. To date, there has been an absence of any clinically validated treatments to manage withdrawal. The current study is an open-label trial exploring the utility of lithium carbonate for the management of cannabis withdrawal symptoms in treatment seeking adult humans. In total, 20 participants were recruited to the study (19 men). All met DSM-IV cannabis-dependence criteria and had been smoking cannabis daily or almost daily for a mean 9 years. Participants were admitted to an inpatient detoxification facility and prescribed lithium 500 mg b.d. for 7 days. Cannabis withdrawal was assessed daily with the Marijuana Withdrawal Checklist (MWC). Two participants were withdrawn from the trial because of possible adverse effects. Sixty percent of participants completed the 7-day treatment program. Follow-up was conducted at a mean of 107 days following treatment. The mean percentage of days abstinent in the period between treatment cessation and follow-up was 87.57%. Twenty-nine percent of participants (n=5) reported continuous abstinence that was biochemically verified at follow-up. Agreement between self-reported cannabis use and urinalysis at follow-up was moderate (kappa=0.47). Significant reductions in symptoms of depression and anxiety and cannabis-related problems were also reported. This study provides evidence for the potential clinical utility and safety of lithium in the management of cannabis withdrawal. A randomised, placebo-controlled trial is recommended.

 

I used to be addicted to GBL, it didnt have any therapeutic potential for me and was completely diffirened from stims from me, after stopping it i craved is extemely bad however i switched to phenibut mainly for stim anxiety, and it used to help my anhedonia years ago not anymore, not in the way like stims eg making me feel normal, just making the time torable in ways, either way now without phenibut i dont crave gbl anymore at all.

 

Oh what about cbd



#6 medievil

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

oleamide should induce sleep in a simular way weed does, its available online an afaik not psychoactive but acts on cb1 to mimick the effects of sleep and a few other things



#7 fntms

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 05:58 PM

Also agmatine enhances cannabis' cb1 activity, and might help with withdrawal.

#8 medievil

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Posted 04 March 2016 - 06:46 PM

Source? it enhances it in present of weed or does it upregulate the receptor? kinda indicating nmda antagonists would also work for tolerance and withdrawals of cannabinoids



#9 BasicBiO

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 01:08 AM

I've used Oleamide in the past during breaks and it does indeed help "withdrawals". I put that in parenthesis as I don't have much of a withdrawal outside of being a B for a day or two. Oleamide is very mildly sedating/relaxing so it can fill the void in the evenings when I normally partake. I used LiftMode's oleamide.



#10 BLimitless

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 03:37 AM

thank you for the responses! melatonin does not work, but will help in any formula. flat out dosed like 2g flat of melatonin still wouldn't sleep.

 

I am trying L-Theanine as we speak. This one is supposed to do the trick. Will report back when I can.



#11 jaiho

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 03:55 AM

I find i can withdraw from anything easily if im on the right drugs. Phenibut, or SSRI+TCA (If you're depressed/anhedonic) 

Withdrawing from dopamine enhancing drugs is absolute hell when you already have low level depression or bad Anhedonia.

 

For weed insomnia i would suggest low dose Phenibut.


Edited by jaiho, 06 March 2016 - 03:57 AM.


#12 fntms

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 01:21 PM

Source? it enhances it in present of weed or does it upregulate the receptor? kinda indicating nmda antagonists would also work for tolerance and withdrawals of cannabinoids


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19538988

I'm no specialist in the matter but it does seem true ime (get more sleepy for instance with low dose of weed).

#13 BLimitless

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 10:54 AM

Just to confirm the L-theanine works! Day 2 I slept sound like a baby :) I would otherwise have remained awake till the end of the week! It seems that NMDA/Glutamate might be the mechanism that causes the insomnia. Theanine acts to raise GABA and inhibit glutamate :)


Edited by BLimitless, 08 March 2016 - 10:56 AM.


#14 gamesguru

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 11:14 AM

it inhibits acetylcholine release and GABA uptake.

upon withdrawal, rebound effects occur.  that's why you get superfocused hypomania (opposite of brain fog, from increased ACh sites), and anxiety (opposite of relaxation, from reduced GABA sites)

 

how much theanine and how close to bedtime?  tea around 3pm does nothing for my withdrawal insomnia, so maybe a bigger dose is needed, closer to bed, and isolated from caffeine.



#15 medievil

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 10:09 AM

I like green tea which i dont know is because of its theanine content, unfortionally it can cause arythemia and prolong qt and the last rc thats legal in the uk really causes bad arythemia at times which can be frightening, nearly all meds and supplemememts prolong qt same as most sups thin your blood, this is a hidden danger, altough ive taken 100 things togheter that prolong qt interval and was fine, like most other ppl, either way beta blockers eaily reverse that.



#16 BLimitless

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 03:14 PM

it inhibits acetylcholine release and GABA uptake.

upon withdrawal, rebound effects occur.  that's why you get superfocused hypomania (opposite of brain fog, from increased ACh sites), and anxiety (opposite of relaxation, from reduced GABA sites)

 

how much theanine and how close to bedtime?  tea around 3pm does nothing for my withdrawal insomnia, so maybe a bigger dose is needed, closer to bed, and isolated from caffeine.

 

No caffeine 12-16hrs before sleeping, and l-theanine 200-400mg (two scoops of the little spoon that came with my pack from bulkpowders) about 10 mins before bed. With caffeine I got insomnia but without, it just knocked me to sleep.

Thank you for explaining the effects, superfocused hypomania, I need more of that in my life that's for sure :P



#17 sativa

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 10:41 AM

Found this on another forum regarding Theanine:

...theanine is an AMPA antagonist, Kainate antagonist, a GABA-A agonist, and a Group One Metabotropic Glutamate Receptor antagonist. The Group One MGluR's boost the activity of NMDA receptors, so by blocking those receptors theanine is blocking NMDA.

This means theanine is a nootropic. AMPA increases BDNF, and AMPA positive allosteric modulation is the mechanism of piracetam. This means theanine would upregulate AMPA, kainate, and Group One MGluR's. Once MGluR becomes upregulated NMDA would release more acetylcholine.

AMPA would begin to act like it is under the influence of piracetam. There would be no subtle crash at the end of the AMPA upregulation.


Blimitless, lavender essential oil has sedating GABA activity, as does lemon balm which is a GABA transaminase inhibitor. The of course there is magnesium and a slight GABAb agonist, taurine with possible NMDA activity.

Are you still micro dosing Syrian Rue? I made a water extract and have been trying it occasionally. Micro dosing was great, and before bed it enhanced dreaming.

Yesterday evenings combination was tryptophan, methionine and Syrian rue (for dimethyltryptamine production).

Edited by sativa, 19 April 2016 - 10:46 AM.

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#18 sativa

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 01:05 AM

CBD is the perfect recovery molecule for your desires...

#19 gamesguru

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 03:29 AM

i would try adding magnesium threonate and theanine to the CBD.  that would really tucker you out

 

even this however leaves much to be desired, as norepinephrine and serotonin play a role in the insomnia and so correcting all these deficits becomes tricky business indeed



#20 sativa

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 02:48 PM

Oleamide seems like an excellent all around sleep promoter. Its pharmacology includes GABA(A) and 5-HT7. Also its an FAAH substrate so indirectly increases other FAAH substrates aka endocannabinoids (such as anadamide)

I tried it first time yesterday, no more than 400mg, and the effects were notable. I am sufficiently aware of myself to notice when my receptor systems are being modulated.

Edited by sativa, 16 December 2017 - 02:52 PM.


#21 Kinesis

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 02:46 AM

Amitriptyline + palmitoylethanolamide + melatonin.

#22 CWF1986

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:21 AM

Amitriptyline + palmitoylethanolamide + melatonin.

 

What's your subjective experience with palmitylethanolamide?



#23 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:39 PM

How is it that no one so far has actually suggested the potentially easiest route for the OP? (of course, the op is most likely already done, but hey...)

 

TAPERING.

Lower the dose gradually... like with any other sleep-inducing drug. Like, what the hey?? He's using MEDICAL CB, yes? Aka a highly standardized and controlled strain - as such, he can pretty much get more or less the same thing with every spliff he lights, instead of the "wild" types from the street - tapering such a drug(s - we all know CB is in reality at least 10 different drugs at the same time...) shouldn't be a problem.

 

So, all of you whom are using either medical CB, OR... even better...! The PURIFIED 50/50 SYNTHETIC LIQUID BLEND OF PURE THC AND CBD...! Just make a schedule... then measure and taper accordingly.

 

 

Some of these other drugs and supplements are probably useful, but they won't be as necessary, and will work better, if you simply taper your standardized CB in a well-planned manor.



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#24 Kinesis

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:25 AM

Amitriptyline + palmitoylethanolamide + melatonin.


What's your subjective experience with palmitylethanolamide?

The maing thing was that it seemed to make a lower dose of amitriptyline go further, so that I got the full benefit of the higher dose with less of the side effects.





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