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Hydrogen Water as a much cheaper alternative to MK677?

hydrogen water ghrelin

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#331 aribadabar

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:31 PM

 

Note that because my syringe only holds 12 ml, every time the syringe fills up full with 12 ml of H2 gas, you have to empty and reset the syringe, by unscrewing the bottle top, pushing the syringe plunger back down, and then screwing the top back on. So when measuring the H2 volume, you have to keep an eye on the bottle and syringe over a period of around 6 to 8 hours, emptying the syringe each time it fills up. (Of course a better approach might be to use a larger capacity syringe.)

 

You lose some H2 which is under pressure when you remove to empty the full syringe so the calculations are probably a bit off and the actual concentrations are a bit higher.

A large enough syringe capable of collecting all the released H2 gas over the 6-8-hour period is a must if you aim for accuracy IMO. 

 

Thanks for sharing the method!



#332 Hip

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:52 PM

You lose some H2 which is under pressure when you remove to empty the full syringe so the calculations are probably a bit off and the actual concentrations are a bit higher.

 

I don't think you do actually lose much H2, because the pressure in the bottle and in the syringe is always more or less equal to atmospheric pressure. 

 

This is because as soon as any pressure above atmospheric pressure builds up in the bottle, it pushes the plunger upwards, and the plunger moves until the pressure on either side of the black rubber plunger is equalized, which will be at atmospheric pressure.

 

And the bottle is filled to the top with water, so there is no excess H2 gas inside the bottle to lose when you open the top.

 

The only error I can see arises from friction of the plunger against the inside wall of the syringe: this friction means that the plunger does not quite move to the correct equilibrium position, where the pressure inside the syringe = pressure outside syringe.  

 

But I figured out a way that sort of gets round this problem (it's a bit difficult to describe, but involves manually pushing and pulling the plunger).

 


A large enough syringe capable of collecting all the released H2 gas over the 6-8-hour period is a must if you aim for accuracy IMO. 

 

Thanks for sharing the method!

 

Agreed, and in fact, I am looking at this possibility now. I have a syringe that has a 70 ml capacity.

 

(You can of course just use a smaller test bottle: I used a 1.5 liter bottle, which produced 68 ml of H2 gas using my "test tube within a bottle" method; but if instead I used a 250 ml bottle for testing, that would produce proportionately less gas from the same water, around 11.6 ml, which would then fit inside my 12 ml syringe. The bottle you make the H2 water in, and the bottle you use to test your H2 water concentration using the syringe measuring approach, do not have to be the same bottle.)

 

 

In some ways, you may lose some accuracy with a larger capacity syringe, because larger syringes are just wider and fatter, but not that much longer; so the millimeter scale printed on the side of the syringe is more compressed, and you get less movement of the plunger per each ml of H2 gas that enters the syringe.

 

Ideally, you would want a large capacity syringe that is longer rather than wider; but I could not find any such syringes for sale.

 


Edited by Hip, 04 November 2016 - 12:26 AM.

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#333 Lreader

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 12:13 PM

Hydrogen collected in a syringe-- great idea.

 

It could be used to test whether a food processor/ rocket blender can infuse hydrogen as well or better than using pressure. Invert the cup from a rocket blender under water, letting it completely fill with water. Underneath the cup, release the hydrogen from the syringe. Screw the blade assembly onto the cup, remove cup from the water, and dry it off. Place it on the rocket blender base and pulse numerous times. A rocket blender is so violent that H2 concentrations might be the best yet.

 



#334 aribadabar

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:59 PM

The only error I can see arises from friction of the plunger against the inside wall of the syringe: this friction means that the plunger does not quite move to the correct equilibrium position, where the pressure inside the syringe = pressure outside syringe.  

 

Yes, the friction makes a significant impact. If you have nearly frictionless-moving plunger then yes, it would be fine. Hopefully your manual adjustment method accounts for this factor.

 

(You can of course just use a smaller test bottle: I used a 1.5 liter bottle, which produced 68 ml of H2 gas using my "test tube within a bottle" method; but if instead I used a 250 ml bottle for testing, that would produce proportionately less gas from the same water.

 

I think this assumption is incorrect - my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong by explaining why that's not the case) is that the amount of H2 released is based on 1) number of Mg rods deployed (surface area) and 2) the amount of malic acid used. Using a 250ml bottle (provided it can house the same amount of rods used in a 1.5 L one and same amount of malic acid is used) will yield the same amount of H2 gas given enough time for the two ingredients to react with the surrounding water. In 250ml H2O there are more than enough molecules to be used until H2-generating reaction stops i.e. the (lower but sufficient) amount of H2O is not a limiting factor.


Edited by aribadabar, 04 November 2016 - 04:03 PM.


#335 Hip

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 05:56 PM

Hydrogen collected in a syringe-- great idea.

 

It could be used to test whether a food processor/ rocket blender can infuse hydrogen as well or better than using pressure.

 

 

It might be worth trying, but I would doubt that you will get much H2 dissolved without pressure: Henry's law tells you this: Henry's law says that when there is pure H2 gas above the water, the ppm concentration of H2 gas in the water will eventually reach 1.57 x P, where P is the gas pressure in atmospheres. If P =1 (standard atmospheric pressure), then Henry's law tells you that you will never get more than a 1.57 ppm concentration. 

 

So without pressure, I don't think you are going to get high concentrations, just by Henry's law.

 

However, if there were some way of using a rocket blender on water + H2 gas under pressure, then I think the rocket blender would do a very good job of getting H2 quickly dissolved.

 

 

 

Because the internal pressure in my plastic bottle I measured to be 6.7 atmospheres, that means theoretically (by Henry's law), I should be able to get an H2 concentration of 1.57 x 6.7 = 10.5 ppm. So in principle, if you leave the bottle for long enough (perhaps a week or two) so that the gas can dissolve into the water, you should get an H2 concentration of over 10 ppm. Yet I am only getting around 5 ppm using my "test tube within a bottle" method. But typically I only let my bottle stand for less than 24 hours.

 

So I am trying figure out how I can optimize my method, so that I get the 10 ppm concentration that Henry's law says that I should theoretically be able to achieve, but in a faster timescale. I don't want to wait two weeks for the H2 gas to dissolve into the water.

 

I have considered things like using ultrasound directed at my pressurized bottle, to try to encourage the H2 gas above the water to dissolve into the water. I happen to have a cheap Chinese 1 MHz ultrasound massager designed for relieving muscles cramps and spasms. So this is something I may try.

 

I also have a powerful 1 inch neodymium magnet (very strong at around 0.1 Tesla), which can be used to alter the water structure. This process creates what is called "magnetized water" on the Internet, but it is a bad name, as you cannot actually magnetize water. However, a powerful magnet placed in contact with a bottle of water will alter the water in certain ways (see: Magnetic and electric effects on water). However, from what I read online, when you "magnetize water", it reduces rather than increases the amount of dissolved gases. 

 

(By the way, if you want to improve the quality of wine, just place a large neodymium magnet under the bottle for 12 hours, and you will change the flavor, generally for the better. I have tried this experiment, and it works).

 

I was also wondering whether the surface tension of water might inhibit the process of H2 gas dissolving into the water. A very tiny amount of soap in the water would reduce surface tension, and possibly that might allow the H2 to be dissolved more quickly. So this is an experiment I will try.

 

 

 

 

the amount of H2 released is based on 1) number of Mg rods deployed (surface area) and 2) the amount of malic acid used.

 

 

I think that provided you have enough magnesium and malic acid to produce sufficient H2 gas to get the internal pressure of the plastic bottle up to around 6 or 7 atmospheres, that is the only really important factor. It goes back to Henry's law, which tells you that the amount of H2 dissolved is exactly proportional to the applied pressure.

 

The issue as I see it is trying to get the H2 dissolved into the water faster. I think if you left a plastic bottle pressurized at 6 or 7 atmospheres of H2 gas to stand for a week or two, allowing enough time for the H2 to dissolve, you would likely reach the theoretical maximum H2 concentration for that pressure, which around 10 ppm.

 

But nobody wants to wait a week or two; so what I would like to do is find a way of speeding up the dissolving process, and getting the H2 dissolved much quicker, hopefully within hours, rather than weeks.


Edited by Hip, 04 November 2016 - 05:59 PM.

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#336 aribadabar

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 07:16 PM

the amount of H2 released is based on 1) number of Mg rods deployed (surface area) and 2) the amount of malic acid used.

 

 

I think that provided you have enough magnesium and malic acid to produce sufficient H2 gas to get the internal pressure of the plastic bottle up to around 6 or 7 atmospheres, that is the only really important factor. It goes back to Henry's law, which tells you that the amount of H2 dissolved is exactly proportional to the applied pressure.

 

The way I see it we are looking at the problem from two angles: 1) released amount (my statement) and 2) dissolved amount post-release (your experimentation).

 

I fully agree with the rest of your post.

 

I found this article informative in regards to amount of bubbling (undissolved) hydrogen vs molecular (dissolved) hydrogen:

 

 

 it is important to consider that simply bubbling hydrogen gas into water or producing it in water (e.g. metallic magnesium, electrolysis via water ionizers, etc.), does not necessarily mean that the water will contain a saturated level or even a therapeutic level of hydrogen gas. Indeed, some water ionizers are able to produce a high alkaline pH, and thus by default “produce” hydrogen gas, but the concentration of hydrogen gas in the water may be less than 0.05 ppm.

 

It looks like for H2 solubility rises when the temperature falls which is why most probably streamlover suggested putting the hot H2 water in the freezer for a few hours:

 

solubility-h2-water.png

I see that in your experiments you use mostly room temperature liquid staying at room temperature afterwards so that's one avenue to explore (bring the temp down to near 0C). The concentration value of 1.57ppm is at 25C.


Edited by aribadabar, 04 November 2016 - 07:24 PM.


#337 aconita

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 11:01 PM

Wandering if leaving the bottle on a magnetic stirrer would somehow improve the hydrogen concentration without need for shaking, it is way more gentle than a blender but it can run for the whole time.

 

 

So I am trying figure out how I can optimize my method, so that I get the 10 ppm concentration that Henry's law says that I should theoretically be able to achieve, but in a faster timescale.

 

According to you finding out that the pressure hinders further chemical reaction of mag/acid, therefore stopping hydrogen production after a certain pressure is reached, I doubt you'll be ever able to achieve more concentration, you need another way that is not by chemical reaction but, for example, injecting hydrogen gas from a tank which is a bit unpractical in my view.

 

I think 6pm concentration is more than satisfying, especially considering that if it is achieved with a minimum amount of mag/acid in the water you can drink as much as you like of it.

 

   



#338 Hip

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 11:20 PM

It looks like for H2 solubility rises when the temperature falls which is why most probably streamlover suggested putting the hot H2 water in the freezer for a few hours

 

Thanks for posting that graph. It's a good idea to post it in this thread.

 

As you say, the graph shows H2 is more soluble in colder water. So on first analysis, it would appear to be a good idea to put your bottle of hydrogen rich water in the fridge while the H2 reaction is going on.

 

However, when you read the study related to the Aquela hydrogen rich water product (which my "test tube within a bottle" method is based on), they find they get higher H2 concentrations using at higher water temperatures. 

 

So this is somewhat confusing, and I don't know why there is this contradiction and discrepancy. One possibility that might explain it is the fact that surface tension is reduced at higher temperatures, and reduced surface tension may allow the H2 gas to more easily enter the water and dissolve. This paper (full version here) indicates that surface tension affects how gases dissolve into liquids. 

 

For Streamlover's method, where more of the H2 may be dissolving straight into the water at the point of H2 generation (the magnesium rod), perhaps lower water temperatures may work better. But for the Aquela method and my "test tube within a bottle" method, most of the H2 gas initially collects at the top of the bottle, and so there may be more of an issue in getting the H2 to cross the water surface tension boundary, and dissolve in the water. This may be why the Aquela method and my method require vigorous shaking of the bottle for 30 seconds. The shaking may help the H2 to cross the surface tension barrier.

 


Edited by Hip, 04 November 2016 - 11:25 PM.

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#339 Hip

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 11:54 PM

Wandering if leaving the bottle on a magnetic stirrer would somehow improve the hydrogen concentration without need for shaking, it is way more gentle than a blender but it can run for the whole time.

 

That might be worth trying, though unfortunately I don't have one of these.

 

 

 

According to you finding out that the pressure hinders further chemical reaction of mag/acid, therefore stopping hydrogen production after a certain pressure is reached, I doubt you'll be ever able to achieve more concentration

 

I am currently double checking this: I am going put a huge amount of citric acid powder in with two magnesium rods, using the Streamlover method in a plastic bottle, to see if I can get higher than 6 or 7 atmospheres of pressure. If I cannot reach higher pressures, it will not be because there are not enough reactants; so then it must be because the pressure limits the chemical reaction.

 

Although another possibility is that the coating of magnesium oxide that builds up on the rods blocks any further chemical reaction; but I don't think so, because even a rod very heavily coated with magnesium oxide immediately starts to create a fizzy reaction when I put the rod in fresh citric acid. (In fact, I do not even bother to clean off the magnesium oxide from my magnesium rods now when I reuse them, because I find there is no need. As soon as you put even a heavily coated rod into fresh citric acid, it starts to react and fizz again.)

 


I think 6pm concentration is more than satisfying, especially considering that if it is achieved with a minimum amount of mag/acid in the water you can drink as much as you like of it.

 

I agree the 5 to 6 ppm concentration from the "test tube within a bottle" method is pretty good, and is considerably higher than most commercially available hydrogen rich water generating products (except of course the Aquela product, which the method is based on).

 

However, it would be nice to get the concentration up to the theoretical maximum of around 10 ppm. 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 04 November 2016 - 11:55 PM.

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#340 aconita

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 12:03 AM

That might be worth trying, though unfortunately I don't have one of these.

 

Check out on youtube for videos about how to homemade one with an old computer cooling fan, it is easy and inexpensive.


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#341 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 05:13 PM

After hitting digestion issues I've had to stop H2 water, I just can't get past the magnesium hydroxide problems.  Cutting back on malic acid did not help. 

 

It'd be great to have a cheap, reliable method of getting higher concentrations without the Streamlover method, but until then I may have to put this on hold.  

 

I thought it was helping with my tremor but after an intense week of 6, 16oz bottles a day (hence the digestion problems) I didn't notice any change. It must have been something else I was doing. 

 

I'm signing up for the high frequency ultrasound surgery anyway, soon as medicaid finally approves coverage so that my insurance co. follows suit.



#342 Hip

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 06:39 PM

we are looking at the problem from two angles: 1) released amount (my statement) and 2) dissolved amount post-release (your experimentation).

 

OK, I have just been doing some interesting experiments to see if I can increase the amount of H2 gas generated in the bottle (thereby increasing the internal pressure in the bottle), as well as some experiments in trying to get more of the H2 gas in the bottle to actually dissolve into the water (thereby increasing the ppm concentration of H2).

 

 

In my first experiment, I placed 12 grams of citric acid powder plus around 80 ml of vinegar (which is a lot of acid) into a 600 ml plastic Pepsi Cola bottle, then filled the bottle to the top with hot water at around 50ºC, and dropped in two 10 cm magnesium rods — this is Streamlover's method. (You cannot use very hot water, because this affects the plastic bottle, making the plastic soft).

 

It was a vigorous reaction, and after a while, the plastic bottle started to bloat out and expand, due to a very high internal pressure; the bottle looked like it was going to explode at any moment. And hydrogen bubbles were still coming off the magnesium rods, even at this very high pressure. So I decided to stop the experiment before the bottle exploded: I carefully opened the bottle, measuring the amount of H2 gas that came out. I measured around 1850 ml of H2 gas coming out. 

 

Inside the bottle, when under pressure, this same gas was compressed into a volume of 176 ml. So dividing one figure by the other, we can calculate that the internal pressure in the bottle was 10.5 atmospheres.

 

This is quite close to the pressure at which these type of plastic soda bottles (PET bottles) will explode; I read reports online of soda bottles typically exploding at around 12 atmospheres (176 psi).

 

 

Anyway, what this experiment seems to show is that when there is sufficient acid, the reaction will continue even as the pressure builds up, and will probably create enough pressure to explode the plastic bottle.

 

However, when less acid is used, so that the acid solution is weaker, the build up of pressure in the bottle does eventually slow down the reaction to almost a complete stop. This is easy to observe, because if you use lower amounts of acid, you can see the reaction in the bottle has come to almost a complete stop as the pressure builds up (ie, very few bubbles produced on the magnesium rod); but as soon as you release the pressure from the bottle, the reaction dramatically speeds up again (ie, a lot more bubbles are produced on the rod).

 

So we can conclude that the pressure build up in the bottle does seem to slow the reaction, but if you make your acid solution strong enough, you can overcome this slowdown, and can still achieve very high pressures inside the bottle.

 

 

 

I also wanted to see if I could achieve higher pressures using my "test tube within a bottle" method. So I loaded up my test tube with 12 grams of citric acid powder (a lot more than the 3 grams I normally use), plus around 30 ml of vinegar, then I placed in one magnesium rod into the test tube, capped the test tube, and dropped it into a 1.5 liter bottle full of water. 

 

The H2 gas slowly built up in the 1.5 liter bottle, the gas occupying a volume of 206 ml when pressurized inside this bottle. When I opened the bottle, I collected 1760 ml of H2 gas coming out. So dividing these two figures, that gives us an internal bottle pressure of 8.5 atmospheres. At this pressure, the bottle also became bloated and slightly ballooned out. I actually measured a 10% increase in the circumference of this 1.5 liter plastic bottle, as a result of the internal pressure forcing the bottle to balloon out.

 

So again, it looks like you can increase the internal bottle pressure if you use enough acid. 

 

However, previously with just 3 grams of citric acid powder, I achieve internal pressures of 6 to 7 atmospheres using the "test tube within a bottle" method, and with this pressure achieved H2 concentrations of around 5 ppm. Increasing the pressure to 8.5 atmospheres did not create any noticeable increase in ppm concentration, and used a lot more acid, making the process less economical. Furthermore, as plastic bottle pressures start to approach 12 atmospheres, there is a risk of bottle explosion (although explosions of plastic bottles are nowhere near as dangerous as exploding glass bottles).

 

So my feeling is that aiming for internal pressures of 6 to 7 atmospheres is a good idea, as this uses minimal levels of acid, and at that pressure, you should theoretically be able to achieve a H2 concentration of around 10 ppm in the water (by Henry's Law).

 

 

 

In terms of whether increased shaking and agitation of the water in the bottle produces higher concentrations of dissolved hydrogen, I can confirm that it definitely does. I have an electric muscle massager device (called a Thumper®) which, produces strong mechanical vibrations. I used this Thumper massager to vigorously agitate for 15 minutes the water in my 1.5 liter bottle that I prepared by the "test tube within a bottle" method, using 3 grams of citric acid (creating an internal pressure of 6 to 7 atmospheres). You can see a very short video here of my Thumper massager device shaking and agitating the water in the bottle. 

 

When I then tested the H2 concentration of the water after this vigorous agitation, it was 7.7 ppm. This is significantly higher than the concentration of around 5 ppm that I usually get with my "test tube within a bottle" method, where I normally just shake the bottle for 30 seconds. 

 

 

So I am thinking that with a home made magnetic stirrer device constantly agitating the surface of the water in the bottle for many hours, that might get you close to the 10 ppm H2 concentration level that is theoretically possible at pressures of 6 to 7 atmospheres. For a magnetic stirrer to be effective, I think the stirrer would have to be placed at the water surface, so that the stirrer constantly agitates and breaks up the surface, similar to the surface agitation shown in my Thumper video.

 

If the magnetic stirrer were to be placed at the bottom of the bottle, where it stirs the water around, but does not agitate the surface of the water, I don't think it would work; I don't think it would dissolve much H2. I think by agitating and breaking up the surface of the water, you overcome the issue of the surface tension, which I am guessing may be a major factor preventing the H2 gas from dissolving in the water.  


Edited by Hip, 05 November 2016 - 07:12 PM.

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#343 Hip

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 10:09 PM

By the way, if anyone wants to get hold of a plastic tube that acts like a test tube, and which fits perfectly into a soda bottle (the same plastic tube I use in my "test tube within a bottle" method of making hydrogen rich water, shown in this video), well my "test tube" is actually the plastic storage container that comes with a very cheap hydrogen rich water stick product I bought on the UK eBay — the hydrogen rich water product shown in these two images:

 

 

Hydrogen Rich Water Stick Sold on eBay for Around £3

Hydrogen_Water_Stick.png               

 

 

 

Plastic Storage Container That the Stick Comes With

(this is actually the item you need: you use this as a test tube)

10_copy.png

 

Just search eBay for "hydrogen water stick" and you will find the above product for sale, for as little as £3. I doubt if this product makes good hydrogen rich water (probably less that 1 ppm), but the plastic storage container that this stick comes with (shown in the second image above) makes an excellent "test tube," which has the perfect size for fitting though the opening of any standard plastic soda bottle (plastic soda bottle tops have an inner diameter of 21.5 mm).

 

Furthermore, the internal diameter of this plastic storage container "test tube" is 20 mm — which is larger enough to accept a magnesium rod (the 99.99% magnesium rods I buy from China on eBay have a diameter of 18 mm, so they can neatly fit inside this "test tube" plastic storage container).

 

 

Note that the two white plastic caps at either end of the above plastic storage container have lips which are just slightly too large to pass through a standard soda bottle top opening; but if you file down these two lips with a nail file, then the whole plastic tube and its caps will pass through the top of soda bottle, and drop into the bottle. You need to make one tiny pin-prick hole (say 0.5 mm in size) using a sewing needle in just one of the plastic caps of this tube, in order to let the H2 gas escape out of the cap placed on the top of the tube. I also glued the other cap onto the bottom of the tube, but this is not that necessary. 

 

You then put one magnesium rod plus 3 grams of citric acid powder — or alternatively 30 ml of vinegar—  into the tube to generate the H2 gas. 

 

It is hard to find a test tube that fits into a soda bottle, and is also wide enough to accommodate a magnesium rod. But this plastic storage container "test tube" does the job perfectly. It was just a fortunate coincidence that I had previously bought one of these cheap hydrogen rich water sticks, and so when I was looking around my home for anything that could approximate a test tube with a cap, I saw this plastic storage container tube on my desk, and it turned out to be the perfect size. 

 

 

So with one of these plastic storage container "test tubes," which cost £3, plus a 100 mm x 18 mm 99.99% pure magnesium rod that you can buy from China on eBay for around £2, you will have yourself a simple and very inexpensive setup that can make strong 5 ppm pure hydrogen rich water.

 

 

 

 

SaveSave


Edited by Hip, 05 November 2016 - 10:30 PM.

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#344 Lreader

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 11:11 PM

- Are those plastic storage containers food grade? BPA free? Not affected by the acid?

- Might as well use up the malic acid if acceptable. Should we use 4 grams of it plus water to go into the storage container with the 1 magnesium rod? 

- Temperatures for the inner and outer waters?

- Brewing times?

- Bottle capacity?


Edited by Lreader, 05 November 2016 - 11:39 PM.


#345 aribadabar

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 11:30 PM

 I measured around 1850 ml of H2 gas coming out. 

 

How did you measure the H2 amount released in a home setting?

 

I guess the ppm calculation is based on the 1.57 x (pressure = occupied volume / the amount above).

And how long have you brewed your H2 water and has it stayed at room temp all the time to cool down from 50C or you placed it in the fridge/freezer?

 

Thanks for sharing your results.



#346 aconita

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 05:15 AM

If the magnetic stirrer were to be placed at the bottom of the bottle, where it stirs the water around, but does not agitate the surface of the water

 

You can't place a magnetic stirrer on the surface but only on the bottom, anyway if you look at some video of magnetic stirrers working you'll notice they lead to a deep vortex formation in the liquid that certainly effects the surface, all to be seen if it will suffice for our scope.

 

Maybe the issue could be that for the magnetic stirrer to work a flat bottom bottle is needed which might not be the case with all soda bottles.


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#347 Lreader

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 03:56 PM

I found this ebay listing for US $8.68 and free shipping:

10 Pack - 20x150mm Pyrex Glass Test Tubes with Rubber Stoppers New

Seems to be within the 21.5mm to 18 mm parameters for the correct diameter. I'm not sure how thick the glass is in test tubes-- Anyone having experience with test tubes think there could be a problem using these? I wonder if the black rubber stoppers are food grade, and if I open a hole in the stopper will the hole stay open. I'm going to call the manufacturer, Lake Charles Manufacturing at (337)479-2480 and ask. Are they the correct height? How does the volume compare with the plastic tube Hip uses? Complete specs:

6-inches Tall or 150mm
.62 inch wide or 20mm
Volume: 36ml or 1.27 fluid ounces
Heat Tempered Pyrex Glass
Includes Ruer Stoppers


#348 aconita

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 05:08 PM

I think a tiny hole in the rubber is not likely to stay open but much could depend by the thickness of the rubber.

 

I'll like to invite considering using magnesium powder instead of rods, it can be pre-mixed with malic or citric acid in the right proportion and poured in a test tube in the right amount to be completely used up by the reaction.

 

This way the size of test tube is much less critical since it can be considerably smaller.



#349 Hip

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 05:50 PM

Are those plastic storage containers food grade? BPA free? Not affected by the acid?

 
I don't really know, but the plastic tube is designed to hold the hydrogen rich water stick, which you put in your drinking water, and thus this stick itself is presumably food grade, so possibly its holding container might be also. But I don't know. I am not too concerned myself. You probably get more transdermal exposure to BPA when holding the handles of your PVC sports bag with sweaty hands.

 

The acid does not seem to affect the plastic tube as far as I can see, having used this plastic tube dozens of times.
 

 

- Might as well use up the malic acid if acceptable. Should we use 4 grams of it plus water to go into the storage container with the 1 magnesium rod?

 
Whatever you have handy will work fine: malic, citric or acetic.
 
I buy 100 grams of citric acid powder for 79 pence in the local Asian grocery shop across the road from me (it is used in cooking as a meat tenderizer and condiment), so that is a cheap option. If you use 3 grams of citric acid each time, it works out to 2.4 pence per bottle of hydrogen rich water.
 
And for around 40 pence you can buy 500 ml of distilled vinegar in a supermarket (you only need around 30 ml of vinegar each time, so that works out to 2.5 pence per bottle).
 
If you buy citric acid powder in bulk, I have seen prices of £20 for 5 kg, which would then work out at 1.2 pence per bottle.
 
 

 

The chemical reactions involved in creating hydrogen from the reaction with the magnesium rod are:

 

Magnesium + malic acid + —> hydrogen gas + magnesium malate

Mg + C4H6O5  —>  H2 + MgC4H4O5   

 

Magnesium + citric acid —> hydrogen gas + magnesium citrate

Mg + C6H8O7  —>  H2 + MgC6H6O7   

 

Magnesium + water —> hydrogen gas + magnesium hydroxide

Mg + H2O  —>  H2 + Mg(OH)2

 

 

If you do your molar mass calculations, you can work out that: each gram of citric acid reacting with the magnesium rod creates a volume of 125 ml of H2 gas (at 20ºC and normal atmospheric pressure). So 3 grams of citric acid will create a volume of 375 ml of H2.

 

And each gram of malic acid reacting with the magnesium rod creates a volume of 179 ml of H2 gas (at  20ºC and normal atmospheric pressure).

 

Note though that you also get some H2 gas being produced from the reaction between the magnesium rod and water, which takes place at the same time as the reaction between the magnesium rod and the acid. 

 

When I use 3 grams of citric acid, I generate around 450 to 500 ml of H2 gas, so I think most of that H2 gas comes from the reaction with the acid, and some H2 comes from the reaction of magnesium with the water.

 

 

In terms of how much magnesium is used up from the reaction, 3 grams of citric acid will react with 127 mg of magnesium, by my molar mass calculations. That means that one 100 mm x 18 mm magnesium rod, which weighs 44 grams, will be able to make 346 bottles of hydrogen rich water, if you use 3 grams of citric acid each time. In fact it will be slightly less than this 346 figure, because as mentioned, magnesium also reacts with the water, which uses up some magnesium. 

 

(If you let you bottle brew for 24 hours, I guess even though the acid may be used up within the first hour or two, magnesium's reaction with water will continue, and you will use up more magnesium compared to brewing for say just 1 or 2 hours.)

 

But let's say as a conservative estimate that one magnesium rod will last for 250 brews, then given each 100 mm x 18 mm magnesium rod costs around £2 on eBay, that means the magnesium cost per brew is 0.8 pence.

 
 
 

- Temperatures for the inner and outer waters?
- Brewing times?
- Bottle capacity?

 
These details are not yet settled, and are still being investigated. But if you glance through this thread from about page 10 onwards, you will find lots of discussion about these parameters.
 
The "test tube within a bottle" method I have been experimenting with is first detailed in this post on page 10, and then has been developed and discussed on subsequent pages with the very helpful ideas, insights and enthusiasm of @aconita, plus the pioneering original hydrogen rich water making method of @streamlover  (see his video and method in this post).
 
 
But some guidelines for using the "test tube within a bottle" method might be these:
 
Reagents: around 3 grams of citric acid or malic acid, plus one magnesium rod.
 
Temperature: room temp (20ºC).  
 
Brewing time: perhaps 1 hour. Most of the hydrogen gas is produced in the first 30 minutes or so, and then the reaction starts to slow down; once the reaction looks like it has almost stopped, then it is brewed. You could even shorten the brew time to say 40 minutes if you are in a rush.  
 
But it is crucial to vigorously shake the bottle for 30 sec at the end of the brewing time. If you don't shake vigorously, you will end up with a weak 1 ppm hydrogen rich water rather than a strong 5 ppm. It is the 30 seconds of shaking that helps dissolve much of the H2 gas into the water. 
 
Bottle capacity: as you like it; anything from a 500 ml plastic Coke bottle or similar soda bottles, to a large 2 liter soda bottle. Always fill the bottle to the very top with water. I typically use a 1.5 liter bottle that held sparkling mineral water. Obviously you cannot use bottles that hold non-sparkling drinks, as these are not designed to withstand pressure.
 
There is plenty of hydrogen gas made in the reaction, so you should have enough to cover even for 2 liters of water (although if you are using a 2 liter bottle, perhaps put in slightly more citric acid, say 4 grams).

 

Though there's not much point in using very large bottles, because hydrogen rich water has a half life of around 2 hours once the bottle is opened and the pressure released (reference: see the MHF website). So you have to drink it fresh. But larger bottles are good if you want to share it with other members of your household each time you brew; in which case, perhaps figure for each person drinking a dose of 250 to 500 ml of hydrogen rich water (just as a guideline).

 

 
 

How did you measure the H2 amount released in a home setting?
 
I guess the ppm calculation is based on the 1.57 x (pressure = occupied volume / the amount above).

 
Not quite: the 1.57 figure relates to Henry's Law; but to calculate pressure we use Boyle's Law.
 
I'll explain the bottle internal pressure measurement and calculation step by step:
 
Firstly, you measure the volume occupied by the pressurized H2 in the bottle, after it has brewed for and hour or two. The H2 gas collects in the top 5 cm or so of the bottle, so by marking on the bottle where the waterline is (which will be around 5 cm down from the bottle cap), when you later empty the bottle, you can work out how much volume is in the space above the marked waterline just by placing a small amount of water into the bottle, and with the bottle cap closed and the bottle inverted, adjusting the amount of water in the bottle until the water surface lines up with the marked waterline. Then that volume of water is exactly equal to the volume of pressurized H2 gas that was in the bottle. It's hard to describe, but easy to do.  
 
(Note that if there is very high pressure inside the bottle (say > 6 or 7 atmospheres), so that the bottle is ballooned out under pressure, then this method becomes slightly inaccurate, although I figured out how to compensate for this inaccuracy.)
 
Secondly, to measure the volume of the H2 gas when it escapes from the bottle at normal atmospheric pressure, you simply open the cap of the pressurized bottle under water, with a large upturned container (like a large one pint beer glass) filled up with water placed just above the bottle cap. Then as you open the cap, the pressurized H2 gas that escapes collects in the upturned container, displacing the water in the container downwards. 
 
Once you have collected all the escaped H2 gas in this way, you mark the H2 gas waterline on this upturned container. Then you place your container back upright, fill with water up to the marked waterline, and then measure the volume of that water. That gives you the total volume of H2 gas that has escaped from the bottle, that is to say, the volume of the H2 gas when it is at normal atmospheric pressure. 

 

Note that 1 ml of water weighs 1 gram, so you can use a gram weighing scales to measure water volume.
 
Finally, you calculate the ratio of these two volumes, and that gives you the internal pressure in the bottle:
 
Pressure inside the bottle in atmospheres = 
volume of the H2 gas at normal atmospheric pressure / volume of the H2 gas when pressurized inside the bottle
 
This calculation is based on Boyle's law.

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 06 November 2016 - 06:31 PM.

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#350 Hip

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 05:55 PM

You can't place a magnetic stirrer on the surface but only on the bottom, anyway if you look at some video of magnetic stirrers working you'll notice they lead to a deep vortex formation in the liquid that certainly effects the surface, all to be seen if it will suffice for our scope.

 

Maybe the issue could be that for the magnetic stirrer to work a flat bottom bottle is needed which might not be the case with all soda bottles.

 

Good point. 

 

The other issue with this magnetic stirrer is that it would take a bit of work to make yourself a DIY magnetic stirrer from an old computer fan, in the way you suggested. From the point of view of making a cheap, easy and accessible method of hydrogen rich water production that anyone can follow, the magnetic stirrer adds quite a bit of complexity, and may be beyond some people's abilities. 

 

But I may try to make a DIY magnetic stirrer, because I have some old computer fans lying around at home, and I also have some powerful magnets. 



#351 Hip

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 06:22 PM

I'll like to invite considering using magnesium powder instead of rods, it can be pre-mixed with malic or citric acid in the right proportion and poured in a test tube in the right amount to be completely used up by the reaction.

 

This way the size of test tube is much less critical since it can be considerably smaller.

 

This is a good idea.

 

If you are using the 100 mm x 18 mm magnesium rods, you are very constrained in terms of dimensions: you really need the internal diameter of your test tube to be around 20 mm, because with the rods being 18 mm in diameter, you need some space around the rods, otherwise the water and acid will not be able to reach the rod surface properly. 

 

So you need a test tube that has an internal diameter of 20 mm, yet and external diameter no larger than 21.5 mm. That is going to be hard to find.

 

I did find one seller on eBay offering 99.9% magnesium rods of 60 mm x 8 mm dimensions, which would more easily fit into a test tube. Though these were 99.9% rather than 99.99% purity. And this was just one seller. All the other sellers offered 100 mm x 18 mm rods of 99.99%.

 

 

 

It is probably a good idea to use high purity (~ 99.99%) magnesium, because a very small amount of the reaction products in the test tube can sometimes escape via the pin-prick hole into the water of the bottle when you are vigorously shaking the bottle. It is a negligible amount, but I would suggest if you can find high purity magnesium, that would be better.

 

I can't seem to find any high purity magnesium powder on the UK eBay, but there are plenty of sellers offering magnesium ribbon 99.95% purity on eBay, costing around £2 for 25 grams.

 

Using magnesium ribbon will also allow you to be more flexible with the size of test tube that you use. 

 

Do you have a source of high purity magnesium powder, @aconita?


Edited by Hip, 06 November 2016 - 06:33 PM.


#352 Hip

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 06:39 PM

How does the volume compare with the plastic tube Hip uses? 

 

The internal dimensions of my plastic tube are: 160 mm long x 20 mm diameter, which gives a volume of around 50 cubic centimeters.


Edited by Hip, 06 November 2016 - 06:55 PM.


#353 aconita

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 06:50 PM

There is this German fireworks supplier on eBay:

 

http://www.ebay.it/i...m8RB7A62uCCZPGw

 

"magnesium powder" yields quite a few results in eBay, in UK there are a few selling 99.5-99.8 purity powder.

 

 


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#354 aribadabar

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 07:02 PM

 

How did you measure the H2 amount released in a home setting?
 
I guess the ppm calculation is based on the 1.57 x (pressure = occupied volume / the amount above).

 
Not quite: the 1.57 figure relates to Henry's Law; but to calculate pressure we use Boyle's Law.

 
Pressure inside the bottle in atmospheres = 
volume of the H2 gas at normal atmospheric pressure / volume of the H2 gas when pressurized inside the bottle
 
This calculation is based on Boyle's law.

 

Sorry, I see that I transposed the numbers in my initial post - yes, I meant pressure=released volume (at 1atm) / compressed volume.

 

You did not address the ppm calc. Is it ppm = 1.57*pressure as calculated above so theoretically at 6-7atm you can potentially reach (1.57*6=) 10ppm given enough time under pressure?

 

What was the rationale for deciding not to lower the temperature (in order to increase solubility)?

 

Thanks for detailing your volume measuring method and a great hack with the inverted bottle waterline!



#355 Hip

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 07:38 PM

You did not address the ppm calc. Is it ppm = 1.57*pressure as calculated above so theoretically at 6-7atm you can potentially reach (1.57*6=) 10ppm given enough time under pressure?

 

If you read my posts and @aconita's posts from page 10 onwards in this thread, you will find these details. For the ppm calculation, have a look a this post

 

But yes, what you say is right. Henry's Law tells you that theoretically at 6 to 7 atmospheres, you can reach around 10 ppm. So if you left the bottle to stand for 1 or  2 weeks, you might get 10 ppm. Then again, you might not, because perhaps the surface tension is a constant factor that prevents H2 from dissolving. I have not tested to see what ppm concentrations are possible by letting the bottle stand for 1 or 2 weeks. 

 

It is the shaking and agitation of the water that plays an important role in dissolving the H2.

 

 

Incidentally, here is a picture of my new ppm measuring syringe setup: I am now using a syringe with around a 70 ml capacity, attached to a bottle top by a short piece of flexible plastic tubing:

 

Syringe for Measuring the H2 ppm Concentration of in a Bottle of Hydrogen Rich Water 

Syringe_ppm_measuring_device.jpg

 

 

I have also ordered a high quality 120 ml glass syringe from China for around £10, which is a good capacity, and I hope the friction in this glass syringe will be less. However, the above plastic syringe works pretty well, and is an easy way to measure ppm.

 

Just to remind you, using this syringe method, the H2 ppm concentration = V / (12 x B) + 1.57, where B = volume of the bottle in liters, and V = volume of the H2 gas collected in the syringe in ml. 

 

When I am collecting the H2 gas from the 1.5 liter bottles of hydrogen rich water I make, most of the gas comes out of the bottle and into the syringe after around 6 to 8 hours, but you really need to wait around 18 hours for all of the gas to come out. At that point, you can accurately calculate your ppm concentration using the above equation.

 

 


What was the rationale for deciding not to lower the temperature (in order to increase solubility)?

 

I just explained this to you above.

 

 

 

SaveSave


Edited by Hip, 06 November 2016 - 07:56 PM.


#356 Lreader

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 11:46 PM

Hip, plastic soda bottles are no longer food grade once they have been dinged, so stretching the plastic would probably case harmful chemicals to leach into the water. What about stainless steel? I first looked at pressure cookers and found they have a hinge on one side of the lip, and a sealing gasket. Then I found a stainless steel beer growler that closes the same way (note the thick gasket that hits in two places, and the great ratings, US $ 17.99, 32 oz. 946 mL lid also steel lined):

https://www.amazon.c...ct_top?ie=UTF8\

Any guesses if this can achieve 6 ATM pressure? 

 

Note when sizing your inner tube: The 99.99% Hong Kong rods sold thru Ebay UK have different measurements than the 99.99% Hong Kong rods sold thru Ebay US. The rods sold thru Ebay US have a smaller diameter but are longer.

 

The food grade glass test tube I'm using as the inner tube will easily fit into the 2 1/4 inch opening of the stainless steel bottle described above.

 

Tapered food grade silicone stoppers are easily available and cheap. A short piece of food grade tube could keep a pinhole punched into the silicone open. What gauge of tube should I purchase for the hydrogen bubbles to pass through?



#357 Hip

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 01:25 AM

Hip, plastic soda bottles are no longer food grade once they have been dinged, so stretching the plastic would probably case harmful chemicals to leach into the water. 

 

Where did you read that? I very much doubt that this is the case. It sounds a little paranoid; soda bottles are under pressure anyway when they are filled with soda drinks, as much as 3 atmospheres (and that may increase further if the bottle is shaken).

 

 

No idea about the pressure a beer growler can hold.

 

I read a good solid glass champagne bottle can hold 6 atmospheres, and you can buy resealer stoppers for these bottles. 

 

But if you are using a relativity non-expanding material like glass or metal, be careful, because you have the potential for creating much, much higher internal pressures from the same amount of hydrogen gas. Boyle's Law tells you this. In a plastic bottle, when you fill it to the top with water, there is no space at all for the H2 gas to collect in, because the water occupies the entire internal volume of the bottle. But as the H2 is produced and the pressure rises, the plastic bottle expands a little like a balloon, thereby creating more internal volume in the bottle, and thus making some space for the H2 gas to collect at the top of the bottle. 

 

But this will not happen in a glass champagne bottle, because the glass is pretty rigid, and will not expand in order to create space for the H2 gas. Consequently, the H2 gas that is created will be compressed into a tiny volume, and Boyles Law then tells you that the pressure of this gas will be enormous, simply because it is highly compressed. So this will either explode the glass bottle, or more likely, just pop off the stopper. Or another possibility is that the high pressure will slow the reaction to almost a stop.

 

The same issue will apply to rigid metal bottles.

 

But there is a way around this problem: just don't fill the champagne bottle to the top with water; leave around 100 ml of air space at the top of the bottle before you put on the stopper. Then the H2 gas can use this air space. The size of the air space will determine the final pressure reached: if the air space is too small relative to the total amount of H2 produced, you will get too high a pressure; if the air space is too large, you will not get enough pressure.

 

 


Note when sizing your inner tube: The 99.99% Hong Kong rods sold thru Ebay UK have different measurements than the 99.99% Hong Kong rods sold thru Ebay US. The rods sold thru Ebay US have a smaller diameter but are longer.

 

OK, looks like the US eBay sells some magnesium rods at a size of 18 mm x 100 mm, and others at a size of 5/8 inch x 5 inch (16 mm x 127 mm). 

 

I think @aconita's suggestion of using magnesium powder instead of magnesium rods is a good one. Magnesium powder will likely react faster with the citric acid, creating the H2 gas more quickly, and thereby resulting in faster brew times. But any form of magnesium is fine.

 

 

 

Tapered food grade silicone stoppers are easily available and cheap. A short piece of food grade tube could keep a pinhole punched into the silicone open. What gauge of tube should I purchase for the hydrogen bubbles to pass through?

 

Gas will easily pass through the narrowest of tubes, so I suggest using the smallest gauge you can get. If the hole in the test tube is too wide, then the contents of the test tube may escape into the bottle during the 30 seconds of vigorous shaking. 

 


Edited by Hip, 09 November 2016 - 01:37 AM.

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#358 Lreader

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 04:15 AM

Thanks for your suggestions. 

 

The water and the hydrogen gas exert pressure on each other, such that all of the bottle's wall is impacted with equal amounts of pressure, whether touching the water or the hydrogen.gas. The same would be true if we added gas in the form of air as a third ingredient. Adding air seems to be useless; it is not the same as adding vacuum.

 

In any event, the idea is to create pressure, which adding vacuum (adding air doesn't do this anyway) or expanding the bottle wall would lessen. The pressure from the hydrogen gas is more important than the amount of hydrogen gas needed for absorption, as most of the hydrogen gas is not absorbed and escapes when we open the bottle. For example, if we had all the time in the world, all we would need is a thin layer of gas above the water until we eventually achieved the maximum dissolved hydrogen allowed by the existing pressure. (Of course, we don't actually have all the time in the world, because hydrogen escapes through the bottle wall, and that is one reason we shake the bottle to speed the absorption.)

 

If the goal is pressure of 6 ATM, and we are afraid of exceeding this because the reaction is not self limiting at that ATM, then we have to cut back on the reactants so that less hydrogen is produced. This involves trial and error, and perhaps a damaged and unusable $17 steel water bottle or two until getting it right.


Edited by Lreader, 09 November 2016 - 04:29 AM.


#359 Hip

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:23 AM

The water and the hydrogen gas exert pressure on each other, such that all of the bottle's wall is impacted with equal amounts of pressure, whether touching the water or the hydrogen.gas.

 
That's true, but it does not get to the crux of the matter.
 
You have to think in terms of Boyle's Law to understand the issue. In loose terms, Boyle's Law says that the more you compress a gas, the more its pressure rises, in direct proportion to the compression.
 
For example, let says we have 500 ml of H2 gas at the normal the pressure of 1 atmosphere, which is approximately the amount of H2 gas that the reaction of our 3 grams of citric acid with magnesium will produce. If you now compress that gas to 250 ml, you will double its pressure to 2 atmospheres (because 500 / 250 = 2). If you compress it to 125 ml, you will quadruple the pressure to 4 atmospheres (because 500 / 125 = 4). If you were to compress into just 5 ml, you would have a pressure of 500 / 5 = 100 atmospheres. Boyle's Law says that as the volume goes down, the pressure goes up in exact proportion. 
 
In a plastic bottle, the bottle expands to provide extra space of around 80 ml for the H2 to occupy. Which means that the pressure in the bottle becomes 500 / 80 = 6.25 atmospheres.
 
In a glass bottle, because it is rigid, you will get very little expansion, so perhaps you might get 2 ml (just as a guess), so when our 500 ml of H2 gas is squashed into that 2 ml, its pressure goes up to 500 / 2 = 250 atmospheres.
 
However, if you initially left an air space of 100 ml in the glass bottle, then the total volume of gas in the glass bottle is the 500 ml of H2 plus the original 100 ml of air, which is a total of 600 ml of gas. So when that 600 ml of gas is compressed into the 100 ml space that you left, you get a pressure of 600 / 100 = 6 atmospheres. Which is quite a difference compared to 250 atmospheres.
 
 
 
You did not mention where you got the idea that plastic soda bottles would probably release harmful chemicals into the water when they are pressurized. Unless you can provide supportive back up for such statements, it is best not to make them, because that can amount to scare story misinformation for anyone reading this thread.  
 
Plastic soda bottles are made from polyethylene terephthalate (PET) plastic, which is perfectly safe. To quote from this website:

Can a PET water bottle be refilled and reused?

Yes. PET bottles are cleared for both single and repeated use by the FDA and other world health-safety agencies. It's a common misconception that refilling or reusing a PET bottle will somehow cause the bottle to degrade or to release harmful substances. PET is a stable, inert material that doesn't biologically or chemically degrade with use, and is resistant to attack by micro-organisms. Regulatory authorities have tested PET bottles and found no harmful substances in either new or re-used PET bottles.

How do I know PET containers are safe for the things I eat or drink?

PET is a biologically inert material that doesn't react with foods or beverages and is resistant to attack by micro-organisms. It's been thoroughly reviewed and approved as safe for contact with foods and drinks by the FDA, Health Canada, the European Food Safety Authority and other health-safety agencies. It has also been used by consumers around the world for more than 30 years without any known adverse effects. Extensive testing of PET and PET packaging has repeatedly shown it to be safe. PET itself is biologically inert if ingested.

 
 
And from this website

Does the PET plastic packaging leach chemicals into the water?
 
Single-serve bottled water containers are packaged in PET plastic. There are no chemical phthalates or bisphenol A (BPA) in PET plastic, and therefore PET plastic does not leach these substances.


Edited by Hip, 09 November 2016 - 05:28 AM.

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#360 Nuke

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:27 AM

I see this is a pretty active thread for H2 water, so I guess this is a good place to cross post what I posted in LostFalco's thread.

 

Any thoughts? I have not read this whole thread yet, not sure if it has been discussed.

 

 

For a while I have been busy with some neurofeedback, so I was not really focusing on chemical interventions.

 

I have been wondering about the hydrogen-water though. How about adding magnesium metal to capsules and drinking them? In the stomage it will react with the HCl, release H2 and it will give me my daily Mg. I take 200mg of Mg as about 1g of Epsom salts, to take that as metal should be easy. It will probably also release more H2 than you can get into the water in another way. 

 

Guess on the other hand burping onto a candle flame may be a bad idea then   :laugh:

 







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