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Hydrogen Water as a much cheaper alternative to MK677?

hydrogen water ghrelin

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#361 Hip

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 05:52 AM

Guess on the other hand burping onto a candle flame may be a bad idea then   

 

Indeed! I'd hate to think what kind of damage 500 ml of H2 gas exploding in your stomach would do!

 

I have not seen any products or research using such an approach of ingesting magnesium metal to react with HCl stomach acid. I am not sure if there might be any dangers involved. Presumably you would have to take the magnesium metal with a meal, otherwise you may not have much HCl in your stomach. It may not be effective anyway, as you may just burp out the H2 gas as soon as it appears. When you drink fizzy soda, you burp out the CO2 straight away, because the pressure is uncomfortable in the stomach. So the same might happen with the H2 gas: it might be too uncomfortable to hold in the stomach.


Edited by Hip, 09 November 2016 - 05:54 AM.

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#362 aribadabar

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 11:20 PM

Can anyone venture an educated guess of the conversion H2 ->ghrelin-> HGH?



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#363 onz

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 08:39 PM

Interested to hear your opinions on this, especially Steamlover's. I bought the H2 tablets from the guy claiming to have reached over 7ppm with a single tablet, he sent me this video of his testing - but I'm not sure if he's doing the testing properly compared to steamlover's video.

 

This is the only method of H2 water I've tried so can't comment on the comparison with Mg rods.

 

 



#364 Lreader

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 09:24 PM

In one of HRW's youtube videos white fizz appears. That fizz would break through the surface tension of the water, allowing more hydrogen to infuse. Think of Alka-Seltzer, which is citric acid plus sodium bicarbonate. The only additional ingredient Hip needs to buy is some Alka-Seltzer to put into the outside water!

 

HRW sells a $20 metal water bottle for use in making his hydrogen water. He demonstrates making hydrogen water using his metal as well as plastic bottles, without indicating any differences in the results. He doesn't seem concerned about lack of bottle expansion in the metal bottle, and apparently hasn't had any leaks using one.

 

In five minutes, he gets 4 ppm using water, and 13 ppm using lemon juice. I wonder how many ATM of pressure he is getting?

 

HRW's H2 blue testing video should have been filmed closer, because we are not clearly seeing the tests. I don't recall people doing this test having to wait several long intervals to add more test drops.

 

He mentions that a therapeutic dose is 2 bottles per day. He does not mention anything about gastric distress from the magnesium. Does using the pills have the same risk as using rods, in the number of bottles per day one can drink without having gastric distress? But using Hip"s tube within a bottle, and adding Alka-Seltzer to the outer bottle, gives us the best of both methods.


Edited by Lreader, 19 November 2016 - 10:20 PM.


#365 Lreader

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 10:42 PM

Correction, don't buy Alka-Seltzer, which also has aspirin. Buy baking soda (which is sodium bicarbonate) which when added to citric acid causes water to fizz.

 

Food grade baking soda: http://www.ebay.com/...VYAAOSwdzVXoOUs

 

BTW, here is the silicone tubing I am buying. I'll cut a small piece for the hydrogen to pass through: http://www.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT Perhaps the tube should be long enough so it extends beyond the surface of the water near the top as the hydrogen is produced. This way almost no water can get in when shaking (the tube's inside diameter is 1 mm).

 

Here is the silicone stopper for the test tube: http://www.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

Here is the test tube: http://www.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT Seems to be 20 mm inside diameter, which is good since my rod has a diameter of less than 16 mm. But may not be wide enough for the silicone stoppers listed above.

 

Here is the bottle: http://www.ebay.com/...0wAAOSwGotWnZms It has thick glass. The top is lined with silicone. The bottle opening has a thick removable silicone ring.


Edited by Lreader, 19 November 2016 - 11:40 PM.


#366 Lreader

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 12:07 AM

The test tubes are 20 mm outside diameter, per the manufacturer: http://www.lcmlab.co...Tubes_s/129.htm and the mL listed by the manufacturer and the ebay listing match. Any estimates as to the inside diameter? If it is at least 17 mm this could handle my rod which is 15.875 mm diameter plus room for the liquid surrounding the rod. Anyway, the stoppers listed above handle up to a 19 mm diameter opening, so they should fit. The tubing goes through a pin hole I will punch in the middle of the stopper. The bottle in my previous post has a diameter for its opening of 25 mm which leaves plenty of room for the test tube.


Edited by Lreader, 20 November 2016 - 12:14 AM.


#367 Lreader

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 06:35 PM

Correction: Don't buy the glass bottle I linked above-- it shattered. It's made for holding grape seed oil, which is not pressurized.


Edited by Lreader, 20 November 2016 - 07:34 PM.


#368 mrwhitee

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:27 PM

Interested to hear your opinions on this, especially Steamlover's. I bought the H2 tablets from the guy claiming to have reached over 7ppm with a single tablet, he sent me this video of his testing - but I'm not sure if he's doing the testing properly compared to steamlover's video.

 

This is the only method of H2 water I've tried so can't comment on the comparison with Mg rods.

 

 

Something fishy with that place. It wont even let you purchase without being refereed by someone, Maybe an MLM scam.



#369 Hip

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:26 AM

Correction: Don't buy the glass bottle I linked above-- it shattered. It's made for holding grape seed oil, which is not pressurized.

 

Definitely you should not use glass bottles that are not designed for pressure! Let me make this clear for everyone:

 

It's dangerous to pressurize to 6 atmospheres glass bottles that are not designed for pressure: they will explode, and you may be injured by flying glass. 

 

I suggest that you do not use glass bottles at all, because even beer bottles designed for pressure can only handle around 3 atmospheres. Whereas plastic soda bottles can handle up to around 12 atmospheres pressure; and if they do explode, they will not shower you with flying glass.  


Edited by Hip, 21 November 2016 - 01:27 AM.

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#370 Lreader

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:00 AM

There are no pure magnesium dietary supplements. Is this one close enough?

 

Elemental magnesium chelated with the amino acids glycine and lysine

 

https://www.amazon.c...4980c69308&th=1

 

Also looking here: https://www.american...owder-7439-95-4

 

I guess having only 99% purity may be good enough if using the test tube in a bottle method.

 

Here's a recap of all the powders and quantities for the test tube in a bottle "fizz" method:

 

In the test tube:

3 grams citric acid or malic acid

127 mg of magnesium powder

water -- fill test tube 1 cm short of the top. What is the smallest volume test tube I can get away with?

 

Outside the test tube:

2 grams of citric acid

3.88 grams of food grade baking soda

 

This is for 1 dose of fizz, and 2 doses are recommended in the Alka-Seltzer instructions for a [250 ml ?] glass of water. https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

The fizz is made up of CO2, but sodium citrate is also produced which is a drug that has dosing precautions: http://www.everydayh...-sodium-citrate

 

Here is an alternate way to produce fizz without producing sodium citrate: Skip the citric acid and baking soda, and just start with carbinated water instead of regular water! Also add concentrated lemon juice to get the hydrogen ppm boost.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Lreader, 21 November 2016 - 08:54 AM.


#371 Lreader

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:31 PM

What component of fruit juice allows a higher ppm of hydrogen, than when using water?

 

Is it the citric acid in the fruit juice? If so, what specifically is the citric acid doing?

 

There are 8.667 grams of citric acid in 100 mL of lemon juice. https://answers.yaho...28103235AAuGQdO

 

So, would adding 43 grams of citric acid to 500 mL outer* (carbinated) water result in the 13 ppm hydrogen HRW is getting using lemon juice?

 

* Outer water is the water outside of the test tube.

 

(HRW doesn't mind the taste of drinking that much acid?)


Edited by Lreader, 21 November 2016 - 01:51 PM.


#372 Hip

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 05:38 PM

@Lreader 

 

At timecode 8:30 in the DrinkHRW video he says that he gets a concentration of around 13 ppm of H2 when using the DrinkHRW tablets in a bottle containing lemon juice. 

 

However, putting lemon juice or citric acid in the water does not of itself increase the H2 ppm. The reason you get a higher ppm is as follows:

 

Putting lemon juice or citric acid in the water really is, in effect, just the same as @streamlover's original method, where @streamlover reacts magnesium with an acid in the water. By dropping the DrinkHRW tablets into lemon juice, the magnesium that I presume is in the tablets will react with the citric acid in the water, and create more H2 gas, thereby increasing the pressure, and thus increasing the ppm. So that is why you get a higher ppm, because of the increased pressure.

 

That and the fact that with @streamlover's method, it gets a higher amount of H2 in the water even without shaking the bottle, most likely because as the H2 gas is created in microscopic bubbles on the surface of the magnesium, it can directly dissolve in the water.

 

However, with @streamlover's method you have the issue of lots of magnesium in your hydrogen rich water, which can cause bowel flushing (diarrhea). This is one of the reasons why I developed my "test tube within a bottle" method, based on the Aquela product. @streamlover's method works better in terms of getting the H2 into the water; but in this method, there is the problem of a high intake of magnesium leading to diarrhea. 

 

My "test tube within a bottle" method consistently gets 5 ppm, provided you vigorously shake the bottle for 30 seconds at the end of the brewing period.

 

If you want to experiment with other methods or variations on the theme, in order to try to get a higher ppm, I'd suggest buying a cheap plastic syringe on eBay, and making the ppm measuring device that I devised and explained earlier. It works very well.

 

 

 

 

By the way, if you are experimenting with sodium bicarbonate (bicarbonate of soda) that you buy from the supermarket, you want to get bicarbonate of soda, not baking soda. Bicarbonate of soda is pure sodium bicarbonate, whereas baking soda is a mixture of sodium bicarbonate and wheat flour. And note that all bicarbonate of soda and baking soda from the supermarket is food grade, obviously, as it is intended for baking cakes. 

 

Be aware also that citric acid erodes tooth enamel fast, so you don't want to be drinking strong lemon juice or citric acid on a regular basis. 


Edited by Hip, 21 November 2016 - 05:40 PM.


#373 aribadabar

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 06:44 PM

whereas baking soda is a mixture of sodium bicarbonate and wheat flour. 

Maybe in UK/EU but not in North America (where Lreader is) - baking soda is 100% sodium bicarbonate.

 

 

 

What is the difference between Baking Soda and Baking Powder?
ahQuestionBot.png
Baking soda is 100% pure sodium bicarbonate

 


Edited by aribadabar, 21 November 2016 - 06:46 PM.


#374 Hip

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 07:08 PM

baking soda is 100% sodium bicarbonate.

 

Sorry, yes you are right. I was getting confused between baking soda and baking powder. It is the latter than contains sodium bicarbonate plus a starch like wheat flour. Whereas as you say, baking soda is pure sodium bicarbonate.



#375 Lreader

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 02:18 AM

So, HRW is using way more citric acid (by way of lemon juice) than can be utilized. I also have to cut way back on my fizz production, since if you shake up a beverage that has a normal amount of carbonation, half of the contents will shoot out when you open it, and far less happens when HRW opens his bottle. Also keep in mind that pill sizes usually don't exceed 2 grams, and HRW's pills appear smaller than that. Even cutting back I end up with 3.585 grams in total for all the powders, and I can justify the added grams to the extra citric acid that can be utilized in attempting to reach HRW's 13 ppm hydrogen. (Instead of adding 2 or so extra grams of citric acid to fully utilize the available magnesium, he unnecessarily added 43 grams by substituting lemon juice for the water). Notice that I have maintained proper ratios:

 

Hydrogen gas production::
grams of citric acid - was 3, now 2. 
mg of magnesium powder - was 127, now 84.67
 
CO2 production:
grams of citric acid - was 2, now 0.5
grams of food grade baking soda - was 3.88, now 1
 
Combined:
2.5 grams citric acid
0.085 grams of magnesium powder
1 gram of food grade baking soda
3.585 grams total
 
You are right, the combined method (using a plastic bottle) gives higher ppm hydrogen readings than the test tube method. Whether the difference is the full 13 ppm vs. 5 ppm for the test tube approach awaits testing. There were concerns with the combined method of side effects: unwanted excess magnesium from the hydrogen production, and excess sodium citrate from the CO2 production. But now with being able to cut back the amounts of each powder, side effects should largely disappear, while still potentially getting 13 ppm. This is consistent with HRW mentioning magnesium side effects in the FAQ's and advising not to use more than 6 pills daily so as not to exceed the RDA* for magnesium.
 
*RDA for magnesium intake (400-420 mg/day for men and 310-320 mg/day for women) https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8 Let's divide each of the highest and lowest RDA values by 6: 400 / 6 = 67 mg. 310 / 6 = 52 mg. Our combined method uses 85 mg per drink. So we should be able to drink 3 to 4 bottles per day without side effects.
 
Even only three 500 mL bottles of, say, only 10 ppm hydrogen water per day, would be more than adequate for most. So I've decided to hold off buying test tubes for now.
 
Now, about plastic vs. metal bottles: HRW shakes each of the plastic and metal bottles, saying that you can hear the water moving around in the plastic bottle, but not in the metal bottle. He erroneously attributes this to the metal bottle being more air tight than the metal bottle. As Hip explained earlier, both are air tight, but the plastic bottle expands allowing more hydrogen to collect at the top and allowing the water and gas to swish as the bottle is shaken. HRW assumes that the reason little hydrogen gas collects at the top of the metal bottle is because of Henry's Law causing the increased pressure in the metal bottle to diffuse more hydrogen gas into the water. He is right about Henry's law but may be mistaken about how much hydrogen gas was created in the first place. As Hip explained earlier, only a small part of the volume of the hydrogen gas collected at the top gets reduced when it is diffused into the water. The lack of a swishing sound is a concern, not only because hydrogen production (and CO2 production?) is self limiting under extreme pressure, but also because there is less mixing action when shaking a bottle that is almost all water.
 
This means there is probably a lower ppm in the metal bottle than in the plastic bottle. But does HRW know this? Notice that he does the H2 Blue testing only on the plastic bottles, and not on the metal bottle. OK, I'm finally convinced that plastic is better than metal, although I may experiment with leaving a small amount of air at the top of a metal bottle before closing it, as Hip suggested earlier.

 

 


Edited by Lreader, 22 November 2016 - 02:28 AM.

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#376 mrwhitee

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 03:00 AM

I didnt spend a lot of time on HR's site but I thought he said his metal bottle was better because it doesnt get the air bubble inside and thats why you dont hear the water moving around.



#377 Lreader

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 04:52 AM

He explained how each bottle can be filled completely with no bubble for either. He said it is easier to do this with the metal bottle, since the top dips down forcing out some of the water as it closes.He also said that with the plastic bottle you have to create a convex surface for the water forcing out some of the water as it closes. Most people here have been using the second method without any problems. Its ironic that if anything, the metal bottle needs a small bubble before closing, because otherwise hydrogen produced will have nothing to press against to create space for itself, causing the production of hydrogen to soon become self limiting.

---

 

The big problem I am having is sourcing food grade magnesium powder. Where do HRW and the pharmaceutical industry in general source theirs? If I can't find it I'll have to use Hip's test tube method, but also add fizz to the water outside the test tube using the revised quantities shown above. Using the 4 rod approach I am down to a bottle every other day in order to avoid side effects. 

 

 



#378 mrwhitee

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 05:09 AM

You think the magnesium powder would have less magnesium in it and therefor less symptoms?

 

Maybe the stuff HR uses is not really food grade. He might be cracking open fire works or grinding down mag rods.


Edited by mrwhitee, 22 November 2016 - 05:38 AM.


#379 Lreader

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 07:44 PM

Information about private labeling through a GMP certified supplement lab: The minimum run is 150,000 pills or capsules at 7 or 8 cents a pill, packaged in properly labeled bottles. The number of pills in each bottle must be in multiples of 30. For the $10,000 to $12,500 cost, 50% is due upfront, with the balance due when the bottles are ready for sale,

 

Here's an example of an H2 product where the ingredients are disclosed on the website:

Active H2 $59.95. http://www.integrate...en-tablets.html 

Drop a tablet into a bottle of spring water, screw on the cap while it dissolves and fizzes. Serving Size: 1 Tablet 450 mg. Servings Per Container: 60

Two ppm of H2 mentioned here: https://youtu.be/9WRStut7rH4?t=12m4s

Supplement Facts: Magnesium, Magnesium as Magnesium Malate, and Magnesium Fumaric-- Amount Per Serving = 55mg. %DV = 10%.

All Ingredients: Maltose, Magnesium Malate, Magnesium Fumaric, Malic Acid, Fumaric Acid.

 

Why three types of magnesium instead of using only elemental magnesium?

Why two types of acid instead of using only one?

Why only 2 ppm Hydrogen and not 5 ppm like Hip gets? I thought using powdered magnesium was supposed to yield more ppm Hydrogen than using Hip's testube method. Are they not using enough elemental magnesium?

HRW uses lactose as a binding agent, so perhaps the maltose in Active H2 is a binding agent. Why not avoid using a binding agent altogether, by using a capsule that one can open and spill the powder directly over and into the bottle?

 

What about a capsule containing only elemental magnesium, say 55 to 85 milligrams? And no other ingredients. Here's what I like about this:

1. There currently is no source for powdered food grade elemental magnesium for retail sale.

2. Most people don't have a milligram scale. The capsule contains a measured quantity and immediately disperses.

3. Making very high ppm hydrogen water this way becomes an easy and cheap DIY project and people can experiment with various acid/ carbonation producing powders, and ratios.

 

Would it be hard to sell 2,500 bottles (60 capsules per bottle), at say, $12.99 per bottle, of food grade powdered pure elemental magnesium capsules?

 


Edited by Lreader, 30 November 2016 - 08:32 PM.


#380 mrkosh1

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:49 PM

What is the drawback to breathing in the hydrogen verses drinking it?

 

I know of a relatively easy/simple method of producing hydrogen at low cost.



#381 RWhigham

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 11:22 PM

What is the drawback to breathing in the hydrogen verses drinking it?

 

Recent Progress Toward Hydrogen Medicine: Potential of Molecular Hydrogen for Preventive and Therapeutic Applications  Section 7.1. "Oral Ingestion by Drinking Hydrogen Water:"

 

"Inhalation of hydrogen gas may be unsuitable or not practical as continuous H2 consumption in daily life for preventive use. In contrast, solubilized H2 (H2-dissolved water; namely, hydrogen water) may be beneficial since it is a portable, easily administered and a safe means of delivering H2"

 

Anyone who doubts the benefit of imbibing hydrogen water or inhaling hydrogen gas should look at the extensive list at the link above.


Edited by RWhigham, 21 January 2017 - 11:50 PM.

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#382 adamh

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 02:48 AM

What is the drawback to breathing in the hydrogen verses drinking it?

 

I know of a relatively easy/simple method of producing hydrogen at low cost.

 

There is no drawback at all. I use to produce the gas by using elemental aluminum with a base. It worked but was messy. Now I use it from a tank which dispenses it into a foil balloon from which I take puffs. I use it once a day, I have found I get the same effect from a small puff held in as long as I can as from several lungfuls. I have seen reports saying it maxes out fast and more is not helpful but not harmful either.

 

I do it this way for convenience and to avoid impurities in the mg. As we know there is no usp grade of mg and it will have impurities. They will tell you it has no lead, no cadmium and so on but can you believe them? The mg alone produces loose stools plus whatever amounts of other metals might be in it. A gas can't contain lead or any metal, metals don't vaporize at room temps.

 

Its not super cheap, I paid some $130 for a tank of h2 with a regulator, both used. I got the tank from a welding supply house and the reg from ebay. Both work flawlessly, I can get a refill for $20. So far its lasting a long time, I expect the tank I bought middle of last year to last at least one year so the first year it costs me about $11 a month and after that maybe $1.60 or so per month. Not too bad and I can always sell the tank and reg if I decide to quit.

 

I have no intention of quitting the h2, I notice almost immediate relief of arthritic and other pain or discomfort. That alone makes it worth it and the other benefits found in various studies are worth it too. I got the foil balloon on ebay 2 large ones for $1 shipping included. A bargain indeed. I put a plastic air valve in it and sealed it with hot glue.

 

There is a slight intoxicated feeling when first inhaling the gas, comparable to hyperventilating. That lets me know its the real thing because I got the same from the h2 I made with aluminum and lye. As a result I have h2 I can use at any time with no preparation needed beforehand. Better yet its pure and no metals to ingest. Its cheap when you consider the cost of rods and equipment needed to produce perhaps 2ppm solution and the time and trouble involved.  

 

When I bought the tank it showed 1800 lb per inch, now some 6 months later last time I filled the balloon it shows 1600 lb. I will probably get several years use out of that first tank in which case the cost  goes down even further. Each balloon full lasts perhaps a month or more if no leaks. If it cost a lot more I think it would still be worth it for the purity and convenience. Who can remember to put the stuff on every day or who has the time? I love my tank.


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#383 mrkosh1

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 11:03 AM

How quickly did it eliminate your arthritis? How bad was it previously?

 

I read the link and scanned this thread, and I see there are many references about how hydrogen water has benefits. However, I don't see nearly as much research as a substance such as alpha lipoic acid or sulforaphane. This is a shame, because hydrogen water seems like it has a lot of potential. I think there needs to be a lot more research.

 

When it comes to producing hydrogen, I was thinking about using catalytic carbon, aluminum, and water.

 

Has there ever been a lifespan study using hydrogen water? It would be interesting to give it to very old mice and see to what degree it prolongs their lifespan.



#384 adamh

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:35 PM

Mrkosh1, it did not cure my arthritis, it provides a temporary relief from symptoms. The effect starts within perhaps 20 minutes and reaches a peak later. The benefits seem to last a few days maybe longer. I've been using h2 for nearly a year and keep getting results so its not placebo. 

 

Hydrogen is an antioxidant which gives it part of its healing powers. It can penetrate all parts of the body from the brain to mitochondria. It also disperses rapidly but seems to leave behind benefits. From what I heard from others long term use is good and some say the more they take the better they feel. All the others I've heard from use h2 water rather than pure gas. At 2ppm it might take a few liters to give the same amount of h2 as a small inhalation of gas.

 

One possible benefit of the water is it comes via a different route, the gut rather than lungs. However we produce hydrogen by digestion daily so we already get some by that route yet additional seems to help. I would advise anyone to try it on the cheap first to see if its for them. If so, then consider buying a tank for long term use. You can also produce your own h2 water by putting some gas into a sealed container with pure water and let it sit long enough to dissolve. That way you avoid the metals and can drink it rather than breath. 

 

If someone does decide to go the gas route I will be happy to share experiences and tips. 


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#385 Lreader

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 05:19 PM

Adamh wrote: "The effect starts within perhaps 20 minutes and reaches a peak later. The benefits seem to last a few days maybe longer."

 

My experience has been the same, with the test tube in a bottle approach, drinking only 1 bottle per day. I'm thinking that the hydrogen tank/ gas approach may be overkill.

 

I've been refining the technique:

- Lake Charles Manufacturing sells 10 Borosilicate test tubes and 5 corks for only $5.86 including shipping.

- I cut a magnesium rod in half using a junior hack saw that I picked up at Home Depot for only $3.97. Half a rod is plenty to put into the test tube.

- An empty 20 oz. Powerade bottle has a wide enough neck, has a perfect volume, and seals well.

- I ordered a Dental Lab Vibrator, from Ebay, for about $40 including shipping. I don't know how practical it will be and it may be an unnecessary extravagance. But the shaking part of this method is very important as Hip has pointed out. I'm hoping to exceed the 5 ppm that Hip has reported.

- While none of the reactants escape into the drinking water, I know that some of the magnesium compound byproduct vapor escapes (along with the hydrogen) since there is a slight taste. I now put the juice from 1/4 of a fresh lime that I had been drinking daily anyway, into the bottle before adding the filtered water. This makes the drink delicious and any other tastes are completely masked. You can follow further on my blog.


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#386 adamh

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 12:57 AM

@Lreader

>I'm thinking that the hydrogen tank/ gas approach may be overkill.

 

I've learned that a small bit is enough. Using more than you need doesnt hurt but doesnt give any added benefits that I can detect. The main advantage is that you don't have to go through all that process and wait until its ready. For busy people its just nicer to be able to grab it and get your h2 without having to remember to do all that previously. Also the purity angle


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#387 Hip

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 02:27 AM

@adamh
One thing that breathing H2 gas cannot do, but hydrogen rich water does do, is induce ghrelin release. Ghrelin has mood boosting, antidepressant properties, as well as cognitive enhancing and neuroprotective effects, and I think ghrelin release is most likely responsible for the mood boost that I experience within an hour or two of drinking 500 ml of 5 ppm hydrogen rich water. Ghrelin is being researched for its antidepressant effects. 
 
Indeed, in the following study (which @aconita cited in the first post of this thread), the author says that ghrelin may be responsible for most of the benefits of drinking hydrogen rich water:

 

Potential ghrelin-mediated benefits and risks of hydrogen water

 

The possibility that most of the benefits observed with HW in experimental studies are mediated by ghrelin merits consideration. Ghrelin is well known to function as an appetite stimulant and secretagogue for growth hormone, but it influences physiological function throughout the body via interaction with the widely express GHS-R1a receptor. Rodent and, to a more limited extent, clinical studies establish that ghrelin has versatile neuroprotective and cognitive enhancing activity, favorably impacts vascular health, exerts anti-inflammatory activity useful in autoimmune disorders, and is markedly hepatoprotective.

 
So this is what you miss out on by breathing hydrogen gas, as opposed to drinking water with hydrogen gas dissolved in it (hydrogen rich water).

 

The benefits of hydrogen rich water appear to derive from the gastric production of ghrelin, and the release of this hormone is triggered by the presence of hydrogen rich water in your stomach. If you don't have hydrogen rich water in your stomach, you won't get any ghrelin.

 

 
 
The following study also tells us something fascinating about hydrogen rich water: you get the same ghrelin-releasing benefits from hydrogen rich water no matter if it is weak or strong in its H2 concentration: the benefits are independent of H2 concentration:
 

Oral ‘hydrogen water' induces neuroprotective ghrelin secretion in mice 

 

Our findings demonstrate that the neuroprotective effects of oral hydrogen water, which produces negligible levels of H2 in the brain, result from gastric induction of the neuroprotective peptide hormone ghrelin and the subsequent activation of ghrelin receptors. In addition, we have shown an obligate role for β1-adrenergic receptors in hydrogen water-induced ghrelin up-regulation in plasma, consistent with previous reports that adrenergic stimulation regulates ghrelin release in vitro and in vivo.
—————
We employed three different methods to prepare hydrogen water (see Methods), which resulted in H2 concentration of 0.04–0.8 mM, and we observed that the effects of hydrogen water on ghrelin induction and protection of dopamine neurons were dose-independent over this range.
—————
The increase in plasma ghrelin levels by oral hydrogen water was eliminated by administration of the β1-adrenergic receptor-specific blocker, atenolol (10 mg/kg i.p.) injected 30 min prior to H2 water administration on each of four days (Figure 3). Thus, activation of β1-adrenergic receptors is required for hydrogen water-induced enhancement of circulating ghrelin.

 

So this study found that the amount of ghrelin released from drinking hydrogen rich water did not depend on the H2 concentration in the water, at least in the range of H2 concentrations they used in the study, which was concentrations from 0.04 mM to 0.8 mM (this corresponds to H2 concentrations in the water of 0.08 ppm to 1.6 ppm). 

 

So irrespective of whether you drink weak hydrogen rich water at just an 0.08 ppm H2 concentration, or stronger hydrogen rich water at 1.6 ppm H2 concentration, in both cases, you still get the same amount of ghrelin released, and thus exactly the same benefit.

 

It is not clear whether this dose independence also extends to even higher H2 concentrations of around 5 ppm or 10 ppm, because the study did not examine these very high concentrations. But it is definitely worth bearing in mind that higher ppm concentrations of H2 may not necessarily get you increased effects, when it comes to ghrelin release. 

 

 

 

This paradoxical dose independence of hydrogen rich water is also detailed in the following study:

 

Recent Progress Toward Hydrogen Medicine: Potential of Molecular Hydrogen for Preventive and Therapeutic Applications

 

When model animals and human subjects consumed H2 by drinking water with dissolved H2, even a very small amount of H2 was extensively effective.

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The amount of administered H2 seems to be, in many cases, independent of the magnitude of effects

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Intestinal bacteria produce more than 1 liter of hydrogen gas per day, whereas the amount of H2 originating from drinking hydrogen water is less than 50 ml. Nevertheless, additional H2 in drinking hydrogen water is unambiguously effective.

 

So again this study shows that you don't need to drink very much hydrogen rich water, and you don't need to drink very concentrated hydrogen rich water, in order to get the benefits, which arise from the production of ghrelin in the stomach.

 

So possibly you may get the best effects from hydrogen rich water if you drink relatively small amounts, but drink it every few hours, in order to provide repeat stimulation of ghrelin release. 

 

 

This study also implicitly indicates that breathing H2 gas is unlikely to produce much benefit, because your own gut bacteria supply you with over 1 liter of hydrogen gas per day anyway. So if you are only breathing in a few small gulps of H2 gas each day, this is not going to be very much, compared with the liter of H2 gas from your gut bacteria.

 

And this 1 liter of H2 gas you get from your gut bacteria does not produce the same benefits of drinking hydrogen rich water, because this H2 gas from your gut bacteria will not trigger the release of ghrelin in your stomach, but drinking hydrogen rich water does induce gastric ghrelin release.

 

 

 

So the bottom line is that you have to drink hydrogen rich water orally to get the benefits of H2, because much of the benefits derive from the gastric production of ghrelin, whose release is triggered by the presence of hydrogen rich water in your stomach. 

 


Edited by Hip, 28 January 2017 - 02:36 AM.

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#388 Lreader

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 10:55 PM

UPDATE: I no longer recommend trying to capture and breath the escaping hydrogen, as some of the magnesium by-product vapor mixes in with the hydrogen gas. The tube in a bottle method creates a greater concentration of this by-product vapor than with the method where the rods sit in the drinking water, and I've noticed that it is somewhat caustic when trying to capture and breathe it. Anyway, it doesn't really add benefit to breathe hydrogen gas when I am already drinking it infused in water, based on what Hip just posted.



#389 adamh

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 12:44 AM

Hip, that is interesting, it seems to confirm my observation that larger amounts of h2 do not give more benefits than small amounts. However, I must take issue with your conclusion that drinking the water does something the gas can't do. The only difference is that the h2 water gives you your h2 via the gut and gas gives it to you via the lungs. However, since we know that hydrogen makes a very small molecule which easily penetrates all parts of the body it would follow that it gets to the gut as well.

 

You mention that gut bacteria produce some hydrogen every day, I really doubt if its a liter but some amount. This too would cast doubt on the water hypothesis since water is bringing h2 to the gut same as bacteria is. I don't know why small increases in h bring benefits if we are already getting that much from bacteria but it does seem to bring benefits. 

 

One thing we do know is the mg used for making water has impurities in it. We can take the word of the manufacturors that it has no lead, cadmium, mercury or other metals in it but we know its not pure. The gas we know is pure except for water vapor, co2, etc. If you want water simply put some h2 into a glass container with a lid and some water, let it sit and absorb and voila, you have h2 water with no magnesium or metal impurities. I may try making some h water just to see if it works any better. The gas is so easy, I open the valve, take a toke, hold it and good to go. No mixing, no waiting, no problem.



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#390 Hip

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 03:02 AM

However, I must take issue with your conclusion that drinking the water does something the gas can't do. The only difference is that the h2 water gives you your h2 via the gut and gas gives it to you via the lungs.

 

 

It is possible that breathing H2 gas (which enters the bloodstream via the lungs), or the H2 gas generated by gut bacteria (which enters the bloodstream via the intestines), does provide some benefits in the body, such as antioxidant benefits.

 

However, the 2013 study I quoted above is quite clear on the fact that it is only drinking hydrogen rich water that has a protective effect on dopamine neurons in a murine Parkinson's disease model, because they tested it. The study says: 

Interestingly, gut microbes can produce molecular hydrogen constitutively and lactulose, a synthetic disaccharide, is an effective substrate to enhance bacterial H2 production in the colon.

 

However, ingestion of lactulose had no significant effect on dopaminergic neuron survival in 6-OHDA-induced PD model rats (although alveolar H2 concentrations were elevated). These results emphasize the importance of gastric ghrelin induction in the neuroprotective action of H2.

 

So it is clear that H2 entering the bloodstream from bacteria in the intestines, even when at elevated levels, does not trigger the gastric release of ghrelin, and does not provide the neuroprotective effects that drinking hydrogen rich water provides. 

 

This is a new discovery, and one that was first published in this 2013 paper. Prior to this paper, it was assumed that the neuroprotective effects of H2 came from its antioxidant action. But this paper indicates that the neuroprotection afforded in this murine Parkinson's disease model is a result of the ghrelin secretion, and that only oral hydrogen rich water triggers ghrelin secretion in the stomach.

 

I guess the H2 dissolved in water must have some special effect when it enters the stomach, which triggers the release of ghrelin. Don't forget that ghrelin is a hormone that is produced and released mainly by the stomach.

 

The study concludes:

Oral H2-water is being explored as a therapeutic for PD as well as a variety of other human pathophysiological conditions under the generally held assumption that the mechanism of action of supplemental H2 is likely to reflect an antioxidative role.

 

Our findings that oral H2 water exerts a neuroprotective effect through activation of an endogenous, gastric ghrelin system that is tightly coupled to β-adrenergic receptor signaling suggests the possibility of novel applications of H2 therapy for various diseases.


Edited by Hip, 29 January 2017 - 03:05 AM.

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