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Hydrogen Water as a much cheaper alternative to MK677?

hydrogen water ghrelin

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#571 Nate-2004

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:12 PM

Scratch that last post. I found your post in the Supplements forum. I'm spot checking some of the claims about H2 and some of the studies cited about antioxidants and honestly, many of them are small, preliminary and uncontrolled experiments on humans. Like this one.  I think what I meant was human studies that have a fairly good sample size and are controlled and blinded. I'm also interested in mechanism of action type studies but plenty of these have been done. One of the studies cited discussing antioxidants is somewhat flawed. For one thing it generalizes and makes too many broad assumptions about everyone's diet, makes no explanation as to why a pill is any different from a food in terms of the antioxidant itself, and Rhonda Patrick has a better explanation here on how (specifically E) these studies are missing some vital information regarding tocopherols.  Though I get that antioxidants aren't exactly helpful in excess, or within hours of exercise, or even in such frequent use without breaks. I can't imagine that even H2 water is good around exercise periods.

 

Also, there are a lot of things that bring down inflammatory cytokines such as curcumin, DHA/EPA, ginger and many other nutrients. I think my main point here is that there is not enough pursuit of quality, robust human study on H2 water currently to warrant any time consuming expense on the DYI methods I mentioned earlier from post #5.  I'm glad there's 40 more studies registered but I don't gather that scientists are rushing and leaping in hot pursuit of discovering H2 Water benefits. If you want to link to one of the tablet manufacturers you think is best that would be cool, since that could save at least the time part of the problem.

 

My goal is to reduce inflammation, reduce lower back pain when standing for long periods and to hopefully alleviate the essential tremor condition I have. My past experiments with H2 water were disappointing on all counts.


Edited by Nate-2004, 22 January 2018 - 03:17 PM.


#572 H2enthusiast

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:15 PM

 

 

I don't care what brands are sold to be honest. Anyone who asked can vouch I sent over numerous brands and said they're all the same, with options for different tablets in other brands that get less H2 but have better organoleptics- except Europe, there are only a couple being sold their. There are also good inhalers, good machines etc which I have recommended to people in private messages. Varying distributors and brands. No one has every method locked down and many carry the same machines and tablets. Some do not produce therapeutic dosages but charge people upwards of $8000. I am going to clarify to you a few things you clearly do not seem to understand.

 

1. Dosage depends on concentration AND volume. H2 dosage would be in 'mg' or mass, like any other product. Inhalation studies that do not list this are inherently flawed, as they do not account for the mass of H2 depending on altitude, the % base can be skewed substantially. Let's simplify the math, and say that 1mg produces 10ml of H2 gas at sea level(close enough). 1mg dissolved in water would be 1mg/L(ppm) in 1L, or 2ppm in 500ml etc. To get it in inhalation you need to consume 1L of H2. 8L per minute at 2% is 160ml of H2 per minute, or 16mg of H2- meaning inhaling for 1minute is 1/6 the dosage of drinking 500ml at 2ppm for bio-availability. The science is trending to higher dosages, also. 

 

Now consider that 100mg of Mag will produce ~90ml of H2 at sea level, to get the same dosage effectiveness in inhalation you need to react about 1g of Mag over 6 minutes or dissolve 12mg worth of Mag to make the water(with proper pressure and home systems you can get a good 40-50% efficiency in dissolution kinetics, so you would actually need 25mg+) That means you are using far less Mag, far less acid and probably getting a better therapeutic dose. 

 

SO, brings me to: want to make it yourself? Get some fine Mg powder, some citric acid and figure out your ratios. Figure out the chemistry and how to control pH. It's safer and more effective. Dumping a ton of dangerous goods in a bottle and reacting it to make a dangerous gas in an exothermic reaction without having done any of the math is moronic. Make sure it is 99.98% or better to ensure no heavy metal contamination. Can't do that? Maybe you shouldn't be handling dangerous goods.

 

Oh, ok so Amazon is selling it so it is 'all good bro?'. Not really. Basically how it works is there is 1, yes 1, source of Mg in the USA. There are a couple facilities to process it. Anyone buying from them needs a licensed end use, and if they are allowed to resell they are supposed to be reselling within that end use. It isn't monitored. Fireworks suppliers don't ask questions, etc. Some people start to accidentally kill themselves or blow up homes? That may change. Already the shipping/dangerous goods laws have in the last several years. Figure you'll just throw a bunch of Mg rods in without proper purity and let it create H2? May be at risk for magnesium poisoning, exposing yourself to several factors more of heavy metals etc.

 

I criticize stupidity that can have dangerous ramifications. There are smart and safe ways to DIY, and there are negligent and stupid ways that could cause harm and deliver insufficient dosage to have a benefit, regardless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really don't care what brands are being sold, to be honest? Aren't you advising people on this site which brand of mag tablets to use? Didn't you say that you have patent applications on this stuff, as you posted when you introduced yourself a week ago--

 

Predominantly molecular hydrogen. Working with public(primarily) teams in assessing areas to study and appropriate dosing and duration protocols based on the cumulative knowledge of the 1000+ existing publications(mostly in animals or in vitro, but roughly 40-50 published human clinical studies), evidence of various pathways, transcription factors etc and co authoring papers on conclusions erroneously attributed to the wrong mechanism. I am also collaborating on papers being written regarding glycation crosslinking and potential novel preventative measures. I can't go into much detail on any of the above until completed...That being said my primary focus in the last two years has been product and device development(on the two above areas), with 13 pending patents as the primary inventor filed in this time

 

 

 
And you said here: "I can recommend brands but would prefer to do it privately."
 
Patent applications imply that you have either a present or hoped for commercial interest, and making recommendations implies that it is most likely a present interest.
 
As for your math on dosage, I am using 100% H2 for inhalation, not 2%, so you are a bit off. I hope you do better on your patents.
 
As for your statement, "Make sure [the magnesium] is 99.98% or better to ensure no heavy metal contamination," it is, but it doesn't matter as I am only using the H2, and not drinking the liquid. Nor am I using rods as you suggested, as the surface area to volume is too small. Magnesium shot is much better.
 
Then you warn about people killing themselves and blowing up homes. Obviously you don't want to use open flames around hydrogen or other flammable gasses. Everyone carries around combustible gases in their intestines without harm ... until someone tries lighting a fart. So it's possible to be injured as people will find a way--even the Hindenburg had a smoking compartment, for instance. But no need for the undocumented hysteria.

 

Ok, as mentioned I have not recommended a single brand to any one person via private messages. I have sent people in North America a list of about 10 options letting them know where they are geographically- and then different recommendations for inhalers or machines. If I was here for financially motivated reasons it would be an odd use of my time, writing numerous posts to recommend product to a handful of people- and then giving them numerous options. I saw this thread on google and read a few pages and decided to write a post, as a lot of the information here is incorrect or limited. Citing a few studies when there are over 1000 published and drawing all conclusions from them is akin to the blind men and the elephant.

 

Yes, if I was trying to obfuscate that I wouldn't have posted it a couple of days ago. My patent applications primarily involve the dissolution kinetics and how to maximize reactive ingredients to retain 100%(or close) to the H2 in water, turning H2/water and other molecules into gels, foams, and viscous lotions to dramatically extend the retention and increase solubility(for topical use or storage to be diluted), and synergy with other molecules for more profound therapeutic benefit. Did you expect that to be a 'gotcha' moment? You see above I also gave recommendations about how to make DIY safer for users and get more H2 with less contamination and wasted $$ in raws? 

Yes, but since you are eyeballing your reaction and not measuring gas consumed, you have NO IDEA WHAT DOSAGE YOU ARE CREATING OR CONSUMING. Again, the CONCENTRATION is IRRELEVANT without knowing the VOLUME of FLOW. 2% per minute at 8L is more than 100ml of 100% H2 in one hit, for instance. You list yourself as a former senior scientist. What was your background? Certainly doesn't show.

 

Undocumented, yes. Unrealistic? No. I have been privately messaged to assist in recommendations with a couple of irresponsible individuals on DIY projects who caused damage(thankfully limited and no personal harm) and like I mentioned have performed numerous stress tests and have witnessed with my own eyes what can happen. If your Mg was powdered and not pellets, your acid finer and maybe in higher concentration and you used hot water the rate of gas created even in a 16oz soda bottle is too fast for the opening in the bottle. Filling to 1/3 Mag it will explode. First the plastic goes from too high of psi, then the H2 goes, and if you are lucky it stops there. If the Mg burns you could burn a hole through your floor, table or worse. It burns at thousands of degrees.


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#573 H2enthusiast

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:41 PM

Yes, a lot of the current studies have been poorly designed, have critical flaws and erroneous conclusions. It is to be expected with new science. In my post I mentioned that H2 acts as a 'selective antioxidant' which the studies show, but I do not believe this to be the case. I can't go into it more until some new studies come out that I am privy to, but in vivo it is akin to walking through times square at midnight on NYE blindfolded and not bumping into anyone. Possible but so unlikely it isn't worth considering. H2 can actually upregulate cytokines as well, I can try to dig up the info, and only supports homeostatic function of our ROS/AO system. In vitro it will not show any up or down regulation on healthy tissue but does when the tissue is exposed to a toxin. This is what makes it profound and differentiates it from other products that can also provide down regulation of cytokines and have antioxidant capabilities. Also, anecdotally speaking I have seen people go into disease remission in various autoimmune diseases in relatively short time frames(1month or less) which coincides with the two studies on rheumatoid arthritis I cited in the other post. I have seen people stop taking methotrexate, for instance. There is a registered clinical trial with 150 patients I think for RA in Japan that hasn't started, I am trying to find the registration online. There are larger trials well underway, including this:

http://www.jns-journ...3469-X/fulltext

This:

 

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT03320018

 

and this:

https://www.gasworld...2010537.article

 

There are more smaller phase 1 and 2 trials under way, and I posted a couple more down lower in the comments that are newer phase II trials that have better designs than many of the early human studies(mild cognitive impairment, acute cerebral infarction) Science takes time but it is advancing as one would expect.

 

Interestingly, H2 has shown to have pretty dramatic effects in exercise performance. It is one of the most studied areas, and there are at least 2 more clinical trials- double blind placebo controlled crossover, that I know of where data is finished and making its way through peer review. 

 

I don't know about you, but I have never seen someone concocting their ginger teas or taking a vitamin E supplement that could stop heavy NSAIDs for say arthritis let alone go into disease remission and quit powerful prescription drugs in advanced cases. 

 

Curcumin could have part of its benefits attributed to H2, actually https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19034660

 

As could resveratrol:  https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26262957

 

I went back to post 5. That's Glen. I know who helped him and his friend Roger, they were really struggling and possibly exhibiting signs of magnesium poisoning through consuming something stupid like 5g a day of Mag through their rod method. As stated numerous times before I think the 'rod method' is very stupid as you cannot control the amount of Magnesium you are consuming, increasing heavy metal exposure by using so much Mg(at possibly lower purity) and without careful crafting may not be getting enough H2.

Scratch that last post. I found your post in the Supplements forum. I'm spot checking some of the claims about H2 and some of the studies cited about antioxidants and honestly, many of them are small, preliminary and uncontrolled experiments on humans. Like this one.  I think what I meant was human studies that have a fairly good sample size and are controlled and blinded. I'm also interested in mechanism of action type studies but plenty of these have been done. One of the studies cited discussing antioxidants is somewhat flawed. For one thing it generalizes and makes too many broad assumptions about everyone's diet, makes no explanation as to why a pill is any different from a food in terms of the antioxidant itself, and Rhonda Patrick has a better explanation here on how (specifically E) these studies are missing some vital information regarding tocopherols.  Though I get that antioxidants aren't exactly helpful in excess, or within hours of exercise, or even in such frequent use without breaks. I can't imagine that even H2 water is good around exercise periods.

 

Also, there are a lot of things that bring down inflammatory cytokines such as curcumin, DHA/EPA, ginger and many other nutrients. I think my main point here is that there is not enough pursuit of quality, robust human study on H2 water currently to warrant any time consuming expense on the DYI methods I mentioned earlier from post #5.  I'm glad there's 40 more studies registered but I don't gather that scientists are rushing and leaping in hot pursuit of discovering H2 Water benefits. If you want to link to one of the tablet manufacturers you think is best that would be cool, since that could save at least the time part of the problem.

 

My goal is to reduce inflammation, reduce lower back pain when standing for long periods and to hopefully alleviate the essential tremor condition I have. My past experiments with H2 water were disappointing on all counts.

 


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#574 Turnbuckle

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:13 PM

 

Yes, but since you are eyeballing your reaction and not measuring gas consumed, you have NO IDEA WHAT DOSAGE YOU ARE CREATING OR CONSUMING. Again, the CONCENTRATION is IRRELEVANT without knowing the VOLUME of FLOW. 2% per minute at 8L is more than 100ml of 100% H2 in one hit, for instance. You list yourself as a former senior scientist. What was your background? Certainly doesn't show.

 

 

 

 

 

If you fill a balloon with 100% H2 and then breathe it for a period for x% of the time, that will be the rough equivalent of breathing x% partial pressure of H2 continuously. If you breathe it in this fashion for ten minutes, you will reach the half saturation point in the CNS gray matter for that partial pressure (4 times longer for white matter, according to Haldane). This is far greater than you would get by drinking HW, though the hypothesis that H2-stimulated ghrelin is important now seems unlikely. Beyond that, the H2 absorbed gastrically is likely very low and highly variable.



#575 H2enthusiast

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:21 PM

How is 'fill a balloon' a scientific explanation for volume?

 

 

Yes, but since you are eyeballing your reaction and not measuring gas consumed, you have NO IDEA WHAT DOSAGE YOU ARE CREATING OR CONSUMING. Again, the CONCENTRATION is IRRELEVANT without knowing the VOLUME of FLOW. 2% per minute at 8L is more than 100ml of 100% H2 in one hit, for instance. You list yourself as a former senior scientist. What was your background? Certainly doesn't show.

 

 

 

 

 

If you fill a balloon with 100% H2 and then breathe it for a period for x% of the time, that will be the rough equivalent of breathing x% partial pressure of H2 continuously. If you breathe it in this fashion for ten minutes, you will reach the half saturation point in the CNS gray matter for that partial pressure (4 times longer for white matter, according to Haldane). This is far greater than you would get by drinking HW, though the hypothesis that H2-stimulated ghrelin is important now seems unlikely. Beyond that, the H2 absorbed gastrically is likely very low and highly variable.

 

 



#576 Turnbuckle

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:35 PM

Good lord, H2enthusiast. I would really be interested to see your patent applications, as I expect they are a mess.



#577 Nate-2004

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:44 PM

@H2Enthusiast 

 

Is there a list somewhere that I missed on the companies that make good H2 water tabs that saturate the water more than 5ppm? Better yet, which one do you use?



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#578 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:36 PM

Good lord, H2enthusiast. I would really be interested to see your patent applications, as I expect they are a mess.

 

Hey Turnbuckle,

 

do you think the hydrogen water tablets are worthless? Should I cancel my order?

 

Thanks.







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