14 replies to this topic

[Grateful]

So AFOAF was generally a high energy person and had some terrible trauma in his life the last few years (suicide of a best friend and an ex that had an abortion saying she was pretty sure it was his and asked him to help her) so he has smoked weed most of his life from the age of 14 and it has always been a great experience. One day after a jam session he did a rather large dab of organic cannabis oil and had a very bad panic/paranoia attack that didn't stop. He said it felt like a bad trip but it didn't go away for over 2 weeks. Enter phenibut. He had some from a friend but didn't do enough research and started taking it daily. It helped him get back a sense of normality and felt good for a few weeks. His dosages topped off at 2 grams and he held it there. After about 8 weeks he started to notice he wasn't feeling good even after taking the phenibut. Started getting more anxious than he had ever felt and having panic attacks. He did some research and realized he was most likely withdrawing while still taking it. He decided to try and get off of it ASAP. He started a taper but didn't really know what he was doing and got down to 1 gram a day but was still experiencing terrible anxiety and fear. Everything seemed unreal. He stayed at 1 gram for about a week and then decided to just go cold turkey. It was the most painful experience he had ever been through. He took a lot of diphenhydramine during the two weeks that were the worst but eventually with running every morning due to waking up in a panic he got to a point where he didn't feel totally crazed. The depression was insane and he finally went to talk to a therapist after about 2 more weeks. He told her about the phenibut and she just brushed it off because she had never heard of it and said he was suffering from ptsd and panic attacks due to the trauma. He was prescribed klonopin and she also tried to give him an ssri. He accepted the klonopin but declined the ssri and started to take st Johns wort. He also did research and started taking myo inositol which helped with the racing thoughts but not the depression so much. He was completely unfunctional, unable to work and lying in bed most of the day everyday. He said the afternoons he felt a little better and could get some things done but this was around 430 or 5pm. He knew the dangers of benzos and didn't want to take them but did eventually take some when he felt completely hopeless, it was like a switch was flipped and he immediately felt the depression and anxiety lift. He still did not want to instate onto a benzo so he was taking 1.5 MG klonopin for a day or two which would make things much more bearable. Then take 3 or 4 days off and slowly slide back into the depression and obsessive thoughts. He finally broke down and started to take the klonopin everyday and says that he feels 75% normal but still has some anxiety when things get "weird" What can I do to help my friend get back on track. I read about bacopa and rhodiola rosea. I think he has messed his gaba receptors up hard. He realizes he was careless in not using the supplement as directed but wants some opinions on a course of action so he can stabilize and get off the benzos ASAP. Any insight is appreciated.

[Junk Master]

That's terrible.  I wish him the best.  I would try to get the doc to prescribe Baclofen and taper from there.

[Grateful]

He has an appointment with a psychiatrist in about 2 weeks, they also prescribed him gabapentin because he said he didn't want a benzo but they said it would take a few weeks for the anxiolitic effect to take place. So he has been taking st Johns wort the gold label brand 3x a day , and the gabapentin 100mg 3x along with myo inositol 2 teaspoons 3x a day. The klonopin was prescribed as needed but he just started to take it everyday because it takes away most of the symptoms he stays at 1.5 MG of klonopin. His thoughts are that he shocked his system by going cold turkey from the phenibut and the klonopin is just acting in almost the same way.....do you think he can just ask for baclofen without sounding like drug seeking behavior??

[Junk Master]

I think Baclofen isn't a drug that people engaging in "drug seeking behavior" would ask for, while Klonopin most certainly is.  So, if he tells the Doc he would like to taper off the Klonopin by substituting Baclofen over time he should have no problem.  Btw 1.5 mg of Klonopin isn't that large of dose, so he might just want to continue taking that for a while if it's working, then gradually taper.

 

Now, if he was asking for opiates, or even something like Xyrem, then I think the doc would have a problem.

 

Keep in mind that nearly all of those seeking prescription drugs ask for opiates, benzos, or some type of stimulant.

[Grateful]

Thank you for responding man I know he has a hard road ahead of him but want to help him he always enjoyed smoking weed and now it just brings him to borderline psychosis. He is scared of everything when not on the klonopin but feels that if he gets some time in where he feels kind of normal it will give him the courage to press through a taper. Phenibut is no joke and he can't believe how it has affected him. This forum is amazing to get insight from people's experiences which can be more helpful than a pill pushing Dr to trap people into the pharmaceutical industrial complex. Thank you!

[slackjaw99]

Speaking from experience, the klon should be tapered very slowly (several weeks to months) while a combo of Baclofen/Gabapentin (you can go much higher than 900mg/day) will replace the phenibut in a much less addictive way.  It's critical to control the feelings of anxiety during this process as it causes excitotoxicity and a degree of "non-traumatic" brain injury to your social circuits.  

[Grateful]

He was only prescribed 300mg of gabapentin so he takes 100mg 3x a day and hasn't noticed much difference from that. The klonopin really helps and he never takes more than 1.5mg. He is going to talk to the Dr and try to make her realize that phenibut does in fact act like a benzo and the withdrawal is as bad if not worse than a benzo withdrawal especially going cold turkey. There were times during the first week he thought everyone was talking about him and had an intense fear of hell or demons. He is surprised he didn't have seizures during the initial period but he was taking a lot of diphenhydramine at that time and having the worst full body cold sweats imaginable. Like having to wash all bedspread and blankets daily. Does anyone have any experience with CBD oil? Most likely not due to its rediculous high cost for proper dosages but just wanted to ask. Again thank all of you for responding and being awesome people!

[Kinesis]

A few years ago I was prescribed 1 mg clonazepam (Klonopin) for panic attacks, along with 100 mg amitriptyline.  This stopped the panic attacks, but after a few months it was really difficult to discontinue the clonazepam.  I got it worked down to 0.5 mg daily, but any attempt to reduce it further resulted in a recurrence of the panic attacks.  So my doctor upped the amitriptyline from 100mg to 150 mg.  That put me pretty out of it for a couple of weeks, but allowed me to finally discontinue the clonazepam.  Then I was able to reduce the amitriptyline without any problem.

 

Maybe your friend's gabapentin is a little like my amitriptyline.  If your friend explains to his doctor his concerns about continued benzodiazepine reliance, his doctor is likely to be very understanding and may, like mine, be able to come up with a way to at least reduce the dosage without undue withdrawal misery.  300 mg of gabapentin is not really that high, so there may be room to temporarily raise it. 

 

Gabapentin by the way is in the same family of drugs as phenibut, the gabapentinoids.  See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenibut.  Besides the close structural similarity, they both act as GABA-B receptor agonists (benzodiazepines act primarily on the GABA-A receptor) and blockers of α2δ subunit-containing voltage-gated calcium channels.  So potentially at a higher dose gabapentin might ease his post-phenibut symptoms and allow him to safely reduce his benzodiazepine dosage.  It sounds like he has a good doctor so if he is open about his concerns I think he has every reason to look forward to dealing with this successfully.  I wish him the best!

 

 

 

Edited by Kinesis, 22 April 2016 - 05:42 PM.

[Oracle Laboratories]

I saw the OP's other post, but since this is receiving the most replies, I will post here.   Phenibut has recently been demonstrated (contrary to the initial Soviet pharmacological analyses) to function through not just one mechanism-of-action (at GABA -B Receptors), but three primary distinct actions which lead to it's overall pharmacological profile. (The being GABA -B Receptor agonism, TAAR1 ("Trace Amine-Associated Receptor 1" antagonism - inhibiting the action of endogenous phenethylamine), and it's gabapentinoid action as an inhibitory modulator at Voltage-Gated Ca+ channels throughout various neuronal systems.

 

First of all, does your friend have any history of mental illness, or is his taking any drugs for conditions such as Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder, or even depressive or anxiety conditions?  I know that everybody is not comfortable taking about these subjects, but it is very important.

 

Since some gabapentinoid drugs such as Gabapentin do act in a similar way as Phenibut (in regard to it's inhibitory action at a2o-subunit containing Voltage-Gated calcium channels), I would absolutely recommend at least short-term dosing with either Gabapentin or Pregabalin (Lyrica) to address that aspect of Phenibut's pharmacology.  As far as the GABA -B Receptor agonism, Baclofen is really the only commercially available GABA derivative that is selective for the GABA -B Receptor, and will not cause intense sedation, noteworthy habit-formation, and impaired cognition like benzodiazepine drugs often do.  Now, I am obviously not his psychiatrist, and cannot advise him to discontinue a benzodiazepine if his psychiatrist believes that it is going to help some of the borderline paranoid delusions, I am simply stating that there are alternatives that he may want to discuss with his doctor.  Tell his to be as honest as possible about everything that he is experiencing and taking to cope with it.

Are you saying that he is taking St, John's Wort on top of SSRI?  This I do not advise at all, and is dangerous, and can exacerbate his symptoms.  The closest pharmacological mechanism(s) of action that St. John's Wort is responsible for is most comparable to the Tricylcic Antidepressants, like amitriptyline, and their co-administration can lead to serious conditions such as Serotonin Syndrome, since they too affect the reuptake of serotonin. 

The drug that I would seriously press his doctor for is Pregabalin (Lyrica).  In addition to acting as a much stronger a2o-subunit Ca+ channel inhibitor, it also has much greater affect on the biosynthesis of GABA compared to Gabapentin.

Also, although I generally feel that this class of drugs is way over-prescribed by psychiatrists (mostly for anxiety, for which it has no direct correlation to), he may want to consider a dopamine antagonist anti-psychotic drug, just for the time being, until his neurochemistry has normalized itself.  It is one thing if he is having delusions that he acknowledges as delusions and can ignore them.  Unfortunately, these conditions can become severe quickly, and may lead to him harming himself or others in a psychotic episode.  I hate to make recommendations regarding this particular class of drugs, since I do agree with the wide use of many of them, for many of the conditions for which they are prescribed for, except for in legitimate cases of schizophrenia or acute mania.  However, if he is experiencing vocal hallucinations and paranoia, then he qualifies as somebody at least in short-term need if these symptoms persists.  There are "old-school", first-generation, "typical" anti-psychotic drugs, and there are newer "atypical" agents that carry less central side-effects, although conflicting data exists on how they compare.  I have my primary "go-to's" when the situation truly warrants it, but I will refrain from making any recommendations in the absence of the psychiatrist treating him.

I really wish that I could apply for a Compassionate Approval Exception (exceptions granted for experimental drugs not yet approved by the FDA) for one of our experimental compounds such as Phenigabine, which operates under very similar pharmacological mechanism(s)-of-action to Phenibut, yet not as "abusable".  However, until our clinical trials are reviewed and vetted by the US FDA, that is simply not possible at the moment.

In most cases, these incidents are caused by the abrupt chemical imbalance, and do remedy themselves in time.  Although supportive medication under the supervision of a psychiatrist is a must at this stage.  In rare, severe incidents, these events serve as catalysts that exacerbate or hasten the onset on mental illness that may be passed genetically, and that likely would have occurred in some form anyway, eventually.  (Although, I have my doubts that this is the case). How old is your friend?  Has he had a physical, bloodwork, etc?  Does he take anything recreationally, and does he have any history of any mental illness?  Please provide a full list of the medications that he is now taking, including doses, and frequency of dosing.  I would hate to see somebody permanently affected by a chemical imbalance, or the psychological toll that such an imbalance may exacerbate.  

Without running diagnostics, meeting him, and spending time analyzing everything that led up to this, I am hesitant to make any recommendations.  However, the combination of Pregabalin (Lyrica) and Baclofen addresses a good 92%+ of Phenibut's pharmacological mechanism(s)-of-action, and should stave off withdrawal syndrome - especially when coupled with a benzodiazepine such as clonazepam (which although is a GABA -A agonist and not a GABA -B agonist like Phenibut, effectively suppresses withdrawals and can tackle the additional, rebound anxiety).  If the delusional thoughts and paranoia continue, I would consult his psychiatrist from a small, titrating dose of some sort of dopamine antagonist anti-psychotic drug (temporarily) - (I would, however, avoid drugs like Risperidone which also acts as a 5-HT (serotonin) Receptor antagonist at various sites, which may exacerbate depression, which under the current situation, is not a good idea).

It's been a massive pain in the a$$ that our main website is down at the moment, but many people frequently contact me via email (or, you or your friend could PM me here), and, I generally don't do this, but if things become more severe, you may call our main facility phone, and I will speak with you directly.  You said that this started while he was still taking Phenibut?  At what dosage?  My educated opinion is telling me that there is more to this story, and that there may be more going on here, but it's difficult to say until I hear more.
 

 

 

-J. Gona
Psychopharmacologist
Psychotropic Treatment Specialist

Oracle Laboratories
NeuroPsych Institute

[Addiction is a myth]

The initial effects of Lyrica were life changing for me. It is as good as phenibut, "cleaner" and less sedating. The initial effects were stimulating but not like ADHD med's. It treated my nerve pain as well as arthritic pain and pain from a severe, nearly through the skin bone break. After the initial honeymoon phase it is just a little sedating but not nearly as much as phenibut.

 

I am not a big fan of the term "nootropic", it sounds like a made up word used by supplement companies and I'm not sure if it is even a medical term. I don't think there is such a thing as smart drugs but if there is Lyrica and phenibut are one's. You can't medicate to create intelligence but you can treat underling conditions like lack of focus and anxiety that allow the user to unlock his intellectual faculties. Without my medication I was depressed, my sentences didn't flow well and my thinking was slow and disorganized.

 

The best way to obtain it is to tell the doctor about your pin's and needles electrical pain that your friend is probably having.

 

I wanted to ask John Gonna why was Phenibut so stimulating at first but now is very sedating and I find myself nodding off? It is like a completely different substance now. This is even from small doses like 1 gram but I have also been taking 5 plus grams sporadically throughout the day. I have been using it daily. I was probobly at 2-3 grams at first.

[Grateful]

Yes you are right he said at the jam session he had ingested some MDA that was tested, this is what led to him having anxiety\paranoia for the first few weeks. He used the phenibut to try and recover from that because there was a lot of stress in his life at that time, he was moving to another state. He is not currently on any ssri but the complete list of med/supplements he takes are

myo inositol 5 grams 3x a day

st Johns wort 600mg 3x a day,

b complex 3x a day,

vitamin d 1000u 1 to 2x a day,

1 tablespoon food grade diatomaceous earth, he felt like his gut wasn't working right and says this has definitely regulated things

the gabapentin was raised to 300mg 3x a day which he hasn't needed kpins since,
sometimes he takes 100mg 5htp in the mornings,

He says he always feels crappy in the morning and tries to do pushups and anything to get his heart rate up, he just doesn't want to leave the house much but has seen improvement in his overall mood. His libido is down but not gone. His girlfriend has basically been nursing him along and she is a complete angel. He had complete blood work done and this was before he started vitamins he had really low b1 and vitamin d his thyroid was good and everything else seemed pretty good. He is going to ask to get a brain scan because he was involved in a car accident and had numerous concussions playing football in high school and has never had a brain scan. He feels like he sent his system into shock more with the phenibut rather than just dealing with the hard come down off the MDA. He has done lsd, fungi, and mdma in the past but has usually always come out with a positive outlook. Oh he is 29 now. He is thinking about trying to get temporary disability or something because he is just about flat broke and can't work like this. Luckily he has good health insurance so everything health wise costs him basically nothing.

Edit-no real history of mental illness in the family although he did hear his aunt got admitted because she thought she was possessed by a demon when she was younger.

Edited by Grateful, 02 May 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Grateful]

Thank you guys so much for responding. He usually by 5pm feels much better and does go to the store or something without too much effort. He doesn't feel a wave of relief or anything just starts to realize he feels better by that point.

Edited by Grateful, 02 May 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Addiction is a myth]

I would venture to guess he is bipolar or schizophrenic. His drug use is reckless and he is crossing social boundaries that might suggest borderline antisocial traits. Phenibut probably had nothing to do with this and may have actually leveled him out where he had to reflect on his own behavior that led to a hypo-mania. The initial honeymoon with phenibut can cause mania, so can antibiotics and s-AME. He sounds like he is non compliant with his medication. The best advice you can give him is to accept that western medicine is well researched and that it works. Give up on the supplements and listen to his doctor.

[Oracle Laboratories]

I wanted to ask John Gonna why was Phenibut so stimulating at first but now is very sedating and I find myself nodding off? It is like a completely different substance now. This is even from small doses like 1 gram but I have also been taking 5 plus grams sporadically throughout the day. I have been using it daily. I was probobly at 2-3 grams at first.

 

Let me guess, the slight stimulatory effects started to dissipate around the one-two week mark?  This is because you are becoming tolerant to the pre-synaptic dopamine-releasing effects of Phenibut's action at a2o-subunit-containing Voltage-Gated Ca+ channels in the GABAergic neurons.  This is the first action to subside, whereas the relaxant and anxiolytic effects of Phenibut can be sustained for quite some time in some individuals.

I am guessing that you never had much experience in using either therapeutic or recreational drugs that affect dopamine neuro-transmission much in the past, which is why you noticed a stimulatory effect in the first place?  Dopamine, being an excitatory neurotransmitter, is likely what is responsible for the initial stimulation that you experienced.



Grateful,

I am thinking that something besides the Phenibut is what is responsible for his symptoms.  How long was he taking the Phenibut for in total?  If the paranoia started following the consumption of the Methylenedioxyamphetamine, it sounds to me that the chemical cocktail he ingested further exacerbated a mental illness that he was already predisposed to.  Wether or not these symptoms subside, only time will tell, but I would guess that he will eventually level out.  For future reference, 5-HTP is a great remedy for MDA and MDMA "crashes".  Using Phenibut in small doses once or twice during that time probably would not have hurt, but it sounds like he may have leaned on it a bit too hard, and withdrew his dosage regimen too quickly.

How long ago was this MDA dose?  I certainly would not advise taking St. John's Wort and 5-HTP together, as they can produce Serotonin Syndrome, a symptom of which includes confusion and mania.  I would stick to the St. John's Wort at this point, or a prescription SSRI such as Sertraline, Citalopram, and Escitalopram that have some verified efficiency in treating Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Agoraphobia (Social Anxiety Disorder).

I will also advise the drugs Baclofen (if he still is experiencing a component of withdrawal), as well as a dopamine antagonist anti-psychotic if the auditory hallucinations, and/or paranoia continue or increase.

I am pressed for time, and as a new member, I can only make so many posts per day, but I will check in.





-J. Gona

Oracle Laboratories
NeuroPsych Institute

[Grateful]

He doesn't think that he has any hallucinations per se because we all heard the table talking too its just that he related to it in a different way. Like he applys everything he hears to himself when he his overly anxious. Like when he hears people laughing he knows they aren't laughing at him but it just brings up anxiety. He did accept the gabapentin and it has leveled him out quite a bit but he still feels great depression. He took the MDA almost 6 months ago, then started phenibut for almost 12 weeks daily he leveled out a bit but then when the withdrawal came it was really bad. If he was delusional why would it stop almost immediately when he takes the klonopin if it isn't related to phenibut withdrawal? He has been feeling better since they upped the dose of gabapentin to 300 3x daily. He has been more anti social but is getting a bit better. The paranoia is also better. He wanted to try to get cbd oil but it is expensive. I will suggest to him the antipsychotic. He thinks he might have had serotonin syndrome after the MDA because he woke up cold and in a puddle of sweat the next day. He thought he could just tough it out but then got on the phenibut. I can't thank you guys enough for your insight.