19 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

I am not sure if this is the right forum for this question, I figure supplements is where this goes. I wasn't sure though if it belonged in the resveratol section or not though.

 

I was reading about niacinamide / nicotinamide and the only concern people seem to have about this is that it inhibits SIRT1. Which can either be a good or bad thing depending on who you ask and what the situation is I suppose.

 

Main reason I want to take the niacinamide is because I'm hoping it may help with memory or thinking and more so in anxiety situations. I have an improv audition coming up.  I heard it's a good nootropic and good for a number of related reasons and also helps produce NAD+ which... ironically activates SIRT1?

 

Here's my main question though:

 

What if you're taking resveratol and/or pterostilbene with the niacinamide at the same time? The resveratol/pterostilbene supposedly encourages or activates SIRT1... Do the two cancel each other out? Do they challenge each other to a fight? (LOL) Anyone know what might happen?

Edited by Nate-2004, 28 April 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[Nate-2004]

Oops, mispelled resveratrol. 

[maxwatt]

They challenge each other to a fight, obviously.

 

Better things than niacinamide for memory but I forget what they are.... (joke).

Niacinamide does not help with atherosclerosis the way niacin may, and I would not expect to see it cause any improvement in memory unless one were already suffering from circulation related memory impairment. 

 

There is a thread her on "long term potentiation",  http://www.longecity...y-induced-ltp/

and others  https://cse.google.c...on&gsc.page=1 

which may be more what you are looking for.

 

Or maybe modafinal or aniracetam, depending on your brain chemistry

[Bryan_S]

I agree somewhat but I gave a bottle of (NAM) to a colleague today because she can't afford the better alternative, so it shouldn't be stricken as a concideration. It is also good for sleep, anxiety and somewhat for memory. Still a NAD precursor and this benefit can't be entirely eclipsed by its inhibitory SIRT1 properties. (It fits like a key into the SIRT1 enzyme  inhibiting it)

 

here is another link

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2149078

 

it will work against Resveratrol / Pterostilbene so no disagreement there.

 

 

 

Edited by Bryan_S, 30 April 2016 - 05:50 AM.

[Nate-2004]

I agree somewhat but I gave a bottle of (NAM) to a colleague today because she can't afford the better alternative, so it shouldn't be stricken as a concideration. It is also good for sleep, anxiety and somewhat for memory. Still a NAD precursor and this benefit can't be entirely eclipsed by its inhibitory SIRT1 properties. (It fits like a key into the SIRT1 enzyme  inhibiting it)

 

here is another link

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2149078

 

it will work against Resveratrol / Pterostilbene so no disagreement there.

 

The only reason I thought it might help with memory or thinking in general is because of its effects on anxiety and how anxiety or stress can affect memory. I notice that "test anxiety" or that when I most often forget something is when I "have to" remember it most, like, on stage or in front of people or when someone is "testing" me. It's an anxiety related issue for sure, otherwise things come to me without a problem. My memory in other words is affected by stress. The link you provided is sort of relevant I think.

 

If it works against resveratrol or pterostilbene, which one wins? Is it a levels thing? i.e. which ever substance has the highest level in your system? These are questions I would pay to have answered if I had billions.

[Bryan_S]

This was covered on the other thread. I think what it all comes down to is Nicotinamide itself binds to empty pockets in the other enzymes and this is what inhibits them. Its part of a natural feedback loop to regulate and blunt the Sirtuin enzymatic activity. In effect the free Nicotinamide puts the breaks on. In the end Nicotinamide will eventually push up NAD levels but it inhibits the other enzymes first. (NR) on the other hand can't fit into the binding pockets and it also doesn't need the help of NAMPT to become (NMN).  So this has helped explain why (NR) jumps to the front of the line without inhibiting the other enzymes. The resulting (NMN) is then converted to NAD+.   

 

Mechanism of Inhibition of the Human Sirtuin Enzyme SIRT3 by Nicotinamide: Computational and Experimental Studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4164625/

 

More sirtuin studies:

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms8645.html

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0107729

 

http://www.cell.com/...wall=true&cc=y=

Edited by Bryan_S, 01 May 2016 - 10:57 PM.

[Nate-2004]

This was covered on the other thread. I think what it all comes down to is Nicotinamide itself binds to empty pockets in the other enzymes and this is what inhibits them. Its part of a natural feedback loop to regulate and blunt the Sirtuin enzymatic activity. In effect the free Nicotinamide puts the breaks on. In the end Nicotinamide will eventually push up NAD levels but it inhibits the other enzymes first. (NR) on the other hand can't fit into the binding pockets and it also doesn't need the help of NAMPT to become (NMN).  So this has helped explain why (NR) jumps to the front of the line without inhibiting the other enzymes. The resulting (NMN) is then converted to NAD+.   

 

Mechanism of Inhibition of the Human Sirtuin Enzyme SIRT3 by Nicotinamide: Computational and Experimental Studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4164625/

 

More sirtuin studies:

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms8645.html

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0107729

 

http://www.cell.com/...wall=true&cc=y=

 

So NAD+ also helps with activating Sirtuins? 

 

I wonder if a boost in NAD+ helps with anxiety or memory.  

 

I didn't get a call back at my audition but it's possible I just didn't fit what they were looking for. None of my friends got it either and they're good. I think it did help though to some degree, I still froze up at one point though and this is where anxiety makes me "blank out" and forget everything, always has at any age. I never tested well because of this.

[Bryan_S]

 

This was covered on the other thread. I think what it all comes down to is Nicotinamide itself binds to empty pockets in the other enzymes and this is what inhibits them. Its part of a natural feedback loop to regulate and blunt the Sirtuin enzymatic activity. In effect the free Nicotinamide puts the breaks on. In the end Nicotinamide will eventually push up NAD levels but it inhibits the other enzymes first. (NR) on the other hand can't fit into the binding pockets and it also doesn't need the help of NAMPT to become (NMN).  So this has helped explain why (NR) jumps to the front of the line without inhibiting the other enzymes. The resulting (NMN) is then converted to NAD+.   

 

Mechanism of Inhibition of the Human Sirtuin Enzyme SIRT3 by Nicotinamide: Computational and Experimental Studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4164625/

 

More sirtuin studies:

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms8645.html

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0107729

 

http://www.cell.com/...wall=true&cc=y=

 

So NAD+ also helps with activating Sirtuins? 

 

I wonder if a boost in NAD+ helps with anxiety or memory.  

 

I didn't get a call back at my audition but it's possible I just didn't fit what they were looking for. None of my friends got it either and they're good. I think it did help though to some degree, I still froze up at one point though and this is where anxiety makes me "blank out" and forget everything, always has at any age. I never tested well because of this.

 

2-years of speech class / 4-years in drama, believe me the anxiety is natural. I later in life went on to be a technology evangelist giving onstage software demos. Don't really miss the travel. Its a confidence thing you master by knowing your material which blocks the fear of performance. If you believe NAD+ boosting will give you the edge it will likely help your confidence but it won't over ride the anxiety if you aren't prepared. The "blank out" and forget everything phase is the result of the anxiety not NAD. I come from the school of, if something frightens you . . . you do it over and over again until its tritely familiar.

 

But back to NAD, yes its consumed by the Sirtuins which make them work and higher levels of NAD helps trigger higher production levels of them. Resveratrol and Pterostilbene help stimulate the production of the Sirtuins as well but if there isn't available NAD those molecules  don't work without the NAD. If NAD levels are low it doesn't make any difference how much you stimulate their production. If nicotinamide (NAM) levels are too high it will also inhibit the Sirtuins by attaching to their binding pockets. So that's the rough picture outlining some of the feedback loops.

[sthira]

Does prolonged fasting (say > 5-days) increase NAD while reducing NADH?

[Bryan_S]

That's my understanding.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

This was covered on the other thread. I think what it all comes down to is Nicotinamide itself binds to empty pockets in the other enzymes and this is what inhibits them. Its part of a natural feedback loop to regulate and blunt the Sirtuin enzymatic activity. In effect the free Nicotinamide puts the breaks on. In the end Nicotinamide will eventually push up NAD levels but it inhibits the other enzymes first. (NR) on the other hand can't fit into the binding pockets and it also doesn't need the help of NAMPT to become (NMN).  So this has helped explain why (NR) jumps to the front of the line without inhibiting the other enzymes. The resulting (NMN) is then converted to NAD+.   

 

Mechanism of Inhibition of the Human Sirtuin Enzyme SIRT3 by Nicotinamide: Computational and Experimental Studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4164625/

 

More sirtuin studies:

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms8645.html

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0107729

 

http://www.cell.com/...wall=true&cc=y=

 

So NAD+ also helps with activating Sirtuins? 

 

I wonder if a boost in NAD+ helps with anxiety or memory.  

 

I didn't get a call back at my audition but it's possible I just didn't fit what they were looking for. None of my friends got it either and they're good. I think it did help though to some degree, I still froze up at one point though and this is where anxiety makes me "blank out" and forget everything, always has at any age. I never tested well because of this.

 

2-years of speech class / 4-years in drama, believe me the anxiety is natural. I later in life went on to be a technology evangelist giving onstage software demos. Don't really miss the travel. Its a confidence thing you master by knowing your material which blocks the fear of performance. If you believe NAD+ boosting will give you the edge it will likely help your confidence but it won't over ride the anxiety if you aren't prepared. The "blank out" and forget everything phase is the result of the anxiety not NAD. I come from the school of, if something frightens you . . . you do it over and over again until its tritely familiar.

 

But back to NAD, yes its consumed by the Sirtuins which make them work and higher levels of NAD helps trigger higher production levels of them. Resveratrol and Pterostilbene help stimulate the production of the Sirtuins as well but if there isn't available NAD those molecules  don't work without the NAD. If NAD levels are low it doesn't make any difference how much you stimulate their production. If nicotinamide (NAM) levels are too high it will also inhibit the Sirtuins by attaching to their binding pockets. So that's the rough picture outlining some of the feedback loops.

 

 

You're right, 2 years of performing improv has helped considerably but more consistent shows would help. That's what the audition was for, a house team with more consistent shows. 

 

It sounds like from what you're saying about NAD, the NR combined with Resveratrol and Pterostilbene should work very well together as a team. Nicotinamide or niacinamide may work against it through a messed up kind of feedback loop you describe. So I have to get around it by jumping ahead in line with the NR, which I just ordered from HPN.

[Bryan_S]

 

 

 

This was covered on the other thread. I think what it all comes down to is Nicotinamide itself binds to empty pockets in the other enzymes and this is what inhibits them. Its part of a natural feedback loop to regulate and blunt the Sirtuin enzymatic activity. In effect the free Nicotinamide puts the breaks on. In the end Nicotinamide will eventually push up NAD levels but it inhibits the other enzymes first. (NR) on the other hand can't fit into the binding pockets and it also doesn't need the help of NAMPT to become (NMN).  So this has helped explain why (NR) jumps to the front of the line without inhibiting the other enzymes. The resulting (NMN) is then converted to NAD+.   

 

Mechanism of Inhibition of the Human Sirtuin Enzyme SIRT3 by Nicotinamide: Computational and Experimental Studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4164625/

 

More sirtuin studies:

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms8645.html

 

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0107729

 

http://www.cell.com/...wall=true&cc=y=

 

So NAD+ also helps with activating Sirtuins? 

 

I wonder if a boost in NAD+ helps with anxiety or memory.  

 

I didn't get a call back at my audition but it's possible I just didn't fit what they were looking for. None of my friends got it either and they're good. I think it did help though to some degree, I still froze up at one point though and this is where anxiety makes me "blank out" and forget everything, always has at any age. I never tested well because of this.

 

2-years of speech class / 4-years in drama, believe me the anxiety is natural. I later in life went on to be a technology evangelist giving onstage software demos. Don't really miss the travel. Its a confidence thing you master by knowing your material which blocks the fear of performance. If you believe NAD+ boosting will give you the edge it will likely help your confidence but it won't over ride the anxiety if you aren't prepared. The "blank out" and forget everything phase is the result of the anxiety not NAD. I come from the school of, if something frightens you . . . you do it over and over again until its tritely familiar.

 

But back to NAD, yes its consumed by the Sirtuins which make them work and higher levels of NAD helps trigger higher production levels of them. Resveratrol and Pterostilbene help stimulate the production of the Sirtuins as well but if there isn't available NAD those molecules  don't work without the NAD. If NAD levels are low it doesn't make any difference how much you stimulate their production. If nicotinamide (NAM) levels are too high it will also inhibit the Sirtuins by attaching to their binding pockets. So that's the rough picture outlining some of the feedback loops.

 

 

You're right, 2 years of performing improv has helped considerably but more consistent shows would help. That's what the audition was for, a house team with more consistent shows. 

 

It sounds like from what you're saying about NAD, the NR combined with Resveratrol and Pterostilbene should work very well together as a team. Nicotinamide or niacinamide may work against it through a messed up kind of feedback loop you describe. So I have to get around it by jumping ahead in line with the NR, which I just ordered from HPN.

 

 

Leonard P. Guarantee outlines the NAD Sirtuin dependency in depth. "Given the NAD⁺ dependence of sirtuin enzymes" Still none of this indicates a cure for anxiety related memory loss.

 

"lc3" is the code for the ongoing everyday discount for LongeCity members. There is a multi bottle one every 2 months with better pricing. That will happen in June.

[Nate-2004]

Thanks Bryan I did use the lc3 code for 6 bottles so I've got a good 3 months worth if I take 2 a day, or rather break these up in such a way that my NAD doesn't fall off by too much. They're 250 for 2 pills so maybe if I somehow do 2 in the morning and 1 in the early afternoon and another in the early evening, or something along those lines.

 

I know you're taking niacinamide at night, but if that blocks the sirtuins I may avoid that for now for a couple years and see what new data comes out about all this NR and NAD stuff.

 

I'll have to go with the classic cure for anxiety which is more exposure therapy, more practice, more stage time. Improv, sketch and theater is great fun anyway.

Edited by Nate-2004, 04 May 2016 - 06:43 PM.

[Bryan_S]

I know you're taking niacinamide at night, but if that blocks the sirtuins I may avoid that for now for a couple years and see what new data comes out about all this NR and NAD stuff.

 

No I stopped that and don't do that any more. I take the Pterostilbene and another one called honokiol for the SIRT's. Felt I was defeating the purpose as more and more articles came out.

[Nate-2004]

 

...and another one called honokiol for the SIRT's. 

 

Oh this stuff? Seems to vary wildly in type and price. Interesting that it acts on GABA.  This is interesting because related to GABA I have a neurodegenerative movement disorder called Essential Tremor that began when I was 12, it's more noticeable now that I'm 42 and it can be frustrating but it's only really noticeable when I'm anxious or after a workout or when my adrenaline is spiking or when I'm trying to do something that requires a lot of manual dexterity like holding something still, such as a fork or spoon or screwdriver or other tool. GABA plays a role in this but researchers are still struggling to figure out how.  I keep trying to find things that help with this and failing. My latest experiment was with CBD oil, which helps with epilepsy but not with this unfortunately. I also thought high doses of vitamin D (4k IU) helped, it did, for like 2 weeks, then stopped, placebo I guess. Strange. 

 

http://www.amazon.co...ywords=Honokiol

[Bryan_S]

I started taking it for its SIRT3 properties. Then months later I ran out of my meds for BPH and didn't miss them, which was never the case before. If you don't have BPH then let me tell you it can get difficult to void. At any rate I stopped my prescription because I found studies validating the same. Cant tell you if it would help you or not. Its very cheap thru Swanson. see http://www.swansonvi...mg-30-veg-caps 

 

https://www.scienced...50414125815.htm

 

http://www.nature.co...ncomms7656.html

[Nate-2004]

Wow that stuff sounds really cool and cheap. I will definitely grab that.

 

So as far as niacin goes, how do you deal with avoiding it? Given that it blocks sirtuin activation because it's in so many things I and most people eat.

 

Tuna

Pork

Turkey

Chicken

Avacado

Sunflower Seeds

Mushrooms

Green peas

Peanuts

Liver

Beef

most name brand cereals (not trader joe's)

Rice, bran, some whole grains. 

 

I eat most of that stuff, rice, bread, oatmeal, turkey, peanuts, avacado, chicken and tuna especially.

 

Cereals I can and will drop. Mushrooms I can drop cuz I don't like them much. The rest... crap... that's tough. I dunno. How does one avoid niacin or does one have to or even want to do that? Maybe the thinking is wrong here. The %DV in those is about 12% - 33% in each serving. So It's low but over a day's time it can be up to 200% possibly depending on how much you eat based on a 2000 calorie diet. I know a niacin deficiency is not good either.

Edited by Nate-2004, 05 May 2016 - 01:50 AM.

[Bryan_S]

Why drop niacin, don't think there is a SIRT problem with it. (NA) is different than (NAM) you just can't take as much.

[Nate-2004]

Why drop niacin, don't think there is a SIRT problem with it. (NA) is different than (NAM) you just can't take as much.

 

Oh ok I thought it got converted into nicotinamide at some point. I thought the same about niacinamide (NAA) - see thread title.

Edited by Nate-2004, 05 May 2016 - 02:03 AM.

[Bryan_S]

(NA) is Niacin in this chart