38 replies to this topic

[DjKrush86]

I have been researching for many years at this point. I think my chronic condition and low energy has to do a lot with low liver function. I've been looking for some resources on how to heal this. Is there anyone knowledgeable on the liver here or know of any practitioner who has knowledge on the liver? I think my liver is quite toxic and actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers. 

[tunt01]

 

 

I think my liver is quite toxic and actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers. 

 

I don't know how to understand that statement.  

 

If you have a problem with your liver it would show up in a liver panel blood test (bilirubin, alt, ast, etc.).  I can't imagine someone having a liver problem and it not showing up metabolically somewhere in a blood test.

 

Liver detox might consider silymarin.

Edited by prophets, 28 April 2016 - 04:14 PM.

[DjKrush86]

Sometimes when the liver is overtly toxic, it seems that taking more liver detoxifiers can do more damage than good. I believe you are supposed to get blood sugar even before taking liver detoxifiers. 

[tunt01]

Sometimes when the liver is overtly toxic, it seems that taking more liver detoxifiers can do more damage than good. I believe you are supposed to get blood sugar even before taking liver detoxifiers. 

 

Outisde of the pancreas, there is probably no organ that works harder in your body to deal with elevated blood sugar levels.  The liver takes your blood glucose and stores it as glycogen or turns it into triglycerides and sends it out in your body.  Your liver clears blood glucose.

 

What is your blood sugar level on a fasting and postprandial basis?  Did you test what happens when you eat a meal?  Are you diabetic?

 

Most "liver aids" allow the liver to do this functionality better.  Without labs showing you have a damaged liver, dyslipidemia, or something clinically relevant, I don't know how to specifically pinpoint a health problem with the opaqueness of "toxic liver".

 

If you have a NAFLD, it would show up in your liver enzymes.  If you were taking drugs and your liver was failing, we'd see it in the bilirubin (or somewhere).  Get a liver, kidney, CBC, and lipid panel.

 

The liver's regenerative capacity is truly awesome.  It's one of the most resilient organs in the human body.  Unless you have some kind of ongoing issue like hepatitis where the liver is constantly under attack or you were alcoholic for 20+ years, I wouldn't be very worried long-term.

[DjKrush86]

My blood glucose came back borderline prediabetic pretty routinely even though I really ate well. I feel worse after eating sometimes. I barely have an appetite. I'm not sure where my blood sugar is at this point I see a doctor next month. I have seen countless over the years and essentially never got anywhere with them. Looking back however I have lots of labs that would indicate liver issues. Such as high cholesterol at the age of 23 even though iw as exercising 6 days a week. Elevated B12 for no reason. Not to mention I have a massive list of things that are linked to liver dysfunction. I have lots of signs that indicate low bile flow. 

[tunt01]

My blood glucose came back borderline prediabetic pretty routinely even though I really ate well. I feel worse after eating sometimes. I barely have an appetite. I'm not sure where my blood sugar is at this point I see a doctor next month. I have seen countless over the years and essentially never got anywhere with them. Looking back however I have lots of labs that would indicate liver issues. Such as high cholesterol at the age of 23 even though iw as exercising 6 days a week. Elevated B12 for no reason. Not to mention I have a massive list of things that are linked to liver dysfunction. I have lots of signs that indicate low bile flow.

Post a copy of your historical liver panel data

[pamojja]

 

I think my liver is quite toxic and actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers.

 

I not only think my liver is toxic, but know I had an enlarged liver, NAFLD, hepatitis.. and elevated liver enzymes. I tolerated all available supplements to support liver detoxification without any side-effects. My liver became normal again.

 

So when you say: "actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers"

 

Which ones have you tried? What have been the intolerable side-effects?

[DjKrush86]

What did you take? @prophets I haven't had a liver panel in years not sure if a doctor ever ran one for me, which is insane considering how many I have seen. I am going in may to get some labs done. Are you knowledgeable on the liver?

[pamojja]

 

I think my liver is quite toxic and actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers.

 

I not only think my liver is toxic, but know I had an enlarged liver, NAFLD, hepatitis.. and elevated liver enzymes. I tolerated all available supplements to support liver detoxification without any side-effects. My liver became normal again.

 

So when you say: "actually can't really tolerate a lot of liver detoxifiers"

 

Which ones have you tried? What have been the intolerable side-effects?

 

What did you take?

 

 

So you didn't take any, didn't had any side-effects. Stating just for fun's sake. Ghoosh, I hate trolling.

[Dorian Grey]

SAM-e (S-Adenosylmethionine) & PPC / Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (aka: PhosChol, Essentiale Forte, EPL/Essential Phospholipids) are a couple of supps you might look into.  Very benign to take and remarkable research showing results.  

 

Choline is the livers favorite nutrient and simple Lecithin or increased dietary consumption of egg yolks is a cheap and easy way to get this.  PPC is highly refined and the best option if you can find and afford it. 

 

Curcumin will stimulate bile flow and is a known liver tonic.  The enhanced absorption formulas will turn your stool dark brown overnight.  Curcumin is also quite benign with know side effects I've seen.  

 

Aside from the normal liver labs AST & ALT which should be included in a basic metabolic blood panel, you might ask your doc to add a GGT (which isn't normally routine) might be wise.  GGT is the most sensitive indicator for liver inflammation.  

 

Hope this helps.  

[DjKrush86]

Thanks I have some SAM-E, I will give it a try. I haven't been able to tolerate a lot of choline as of late. I have some curcumin I haven't tried that in awhile. 

Thanks I have some SAM-E, I will give it a try. I haven't been able to tolerate a lot of choline as of late. I have some curcumin I haven't tried that in awhile. 

[Dorian Grey]

Here's Some info on SAM-e & PPC (aka Essential Phospholipids). 

 

SAM-e reduced the incidence of death or transplant by over 50% in those with mild to moderate alcoholic cirrhosis...

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10406187

 

"When patients in Child C class were excluded from the analysis, the overall mortality/liver transplantation was significantly greater in the placebo group than in the AdoMet group (29% vs. 12%, p = 0.025), and differences between the two groups in the 2-year survival curves (defined as the time to death or liver transplantation) were also statistically significant (p = 0.046).

CONCLUSIONS:

The present results indicate that long-term treatment with AdoMet may improve survival or delay liver transplantation in patients with alcoholic liver cirrhosis, especially in those with less advanced liver disease."

 

---------------------------

A small ocean of studies on PPC here:

http://phoschol.com/...annComplete.pdf

Gundermann refers to PPC as "Essential Phospholipids" or EPL, but if you look on page 17 (2.1 Chemistry & 2.2 Nomenclature) where he describes the product, it clearly states the primary active component as "1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine" which is also the primary component of PPC.  And "This historic development and country-specific peculiarities are the reasons why various names have been used in literature. The terms such as "EPL - Special" (= up to 82 % PC), "EPL - Purissimum" (= 94% PC), polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) or polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine (PUPC), or polyunsaturated lecithin (PUL) (=76 % PC or 94% PC) designate the same group of preparations with a very high content of phosphatidylcholine molecules with predominantly polyunsaturated fatty acids.

 

--------------------------

 

I've taken both SAM-e & PPC for years now and have nothing but good things to say about them.  I prefer low doses...  SAM-e @ 200mg twice a day and only one 900mg PPC/day.  More is not always better!

 

Edited by synesthesia, 29 April 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[DjKrush86]

I actually have some PPC from lifeextension I tried it for a few days and got nauseous and started feeling unwell. not sure if it was detox or my livers not able to handle it right now.  

[Dorian Grey]

Don't know how old your stash was, but PPC is perishable and doesn't keep more than a few months once you open the bottle.  

 

PhosChol offers a lower 600mg size cap http://shop.nutrasal...tegory_s/49.htm

 

and Essentiale Forte is also lower dose @ 300mg http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B0036BDOBC

 

I trust you are taking this with meals?  

Edited by synesthesia, 29 April 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[BasicBiO]

Curcumin, TUDCA, SAMe, R-ALA, liposomal Vit C, are all possibilities. Sounds like you have some metabolic issues so really, finding a good naturopath that will monitor you closely (tough to find) via bloodwork is probably the best way to go rather than throwing supplements at a problem with unknown origin.

[DjKrush86]

Yeah I have tried naturopaths, endocrinologist, integrative, chiro...ect. I'm searching for a new practitioner now who can help me with this. I am having trouble finding someone who has a deep knowledge of liver and cholestatic liver disease. I have been tested for almost everything but liver and now I am starting to realize it is largely based in liver dysfunction after reviewing my symptoms and looking back at some biomarkers. I appreciate the help I am getting here. Whoever accused me of being a troll above this isn't the case i'm quite sick and I have really debilitating fatigue. I understand needing to be under the care of a professional but you have to understand I have seen at least 25 doctors over almost eight years. I have nothing to show for it in fact i'm probably worse from it. I am going to start over with a new primary care in order to get some labs. 

[vader]

vitamin c cured my long term liver pain from chronic alcoholism

[Dorian Grey]

Most all doctors (American anyway) are more "disease managers" than master diagnosticians or health advisers.  Can't hurt to keep trying though. 

 

Have you looked into fibroscan to rule out advanced disease?  Cholestatic disease, from what I understand can result from: not enough or thick muddy bile which doesn't move easily.  European doctors often describe this as "sluggish liver", though US doc's don't use this term.  This is often caused by choline deficiency.  Can you eat egg yolks?  Try not to cook them to death...  Sunny side up, over easy, soft boiled or soft scrambled is best.  

 

There's another problem associated with the gallbladder failing to move bile measured as the "ejection fraction" through HIDA scan.  Have you looked into this?  Stones can also block ducts and ultrasound usually sees these well.  I take it you've certainly had one of these (abdominal ultrasound).  If you haven't, ultrasound is dirt cheap and painless with no radiation involved.  If your doc hasn't ordered this yet, I'd start pestering him/her for this.  Ultrasound can detect swollen/dilated bile ducts, stones, enlarged gallbladder, and advanced fibrosis/cirrhosis if this is occurring.  The spleen also often enlarges with liver problems and US can see this too.  

 

Again, Curcumin is supposed to stimulate bile flow.  Have you tried one of the enhanced absorption forms?  

Edited by synesthesia, 29 April 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[aaCharley]

Curcumin and Milk Thistle extract are regularly recommended.  Many studies show positive liver benefits without any downsides.  Also look at Alpha Lipoic Acid in combination with Acetyl-L-Carnitine for liver benefits.  The suggestions of eggs and lecithin are excellent and are pretty inexpensive and easy to add to a diet.

[xEva]

Outisde of the pancreas, there is probably no organ that works harder in your body to deal with elevated blood sugar levels.  The liver takes your blood glucose and stores it as glycogen or turns it into triglycerides and sends it out in your body.  Your liver clears blood glucose.

 

Funny, 'cause it's the liver what makes glucose (often from its glycogen) and is responsible for a high (or low) fasting blood sugar levels.

[Dorian Grey]

DjKrush, have you checked for iron overload / Hemochromatosis?  This is one of the most commonly missed diagnosis in medicine and often presents with liver symptoms, fatigue and joint pain.  Most patients with this are seen by multiple doctors, who miss the diagnosis and treat symptoms, often for many years.  

 

Ferritin is the best initial test to rule this out...  A dirt cheap iron lab, and any of your doc's shouldn't mind ordering it.  Ferritin isn't included in routine labs, which is why this is overlooked so often.  

 

Give it a look and see what you think.  https://en.wikipedia...i/Iron_overload

 

 

Edited by synesthesia, 30 April 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[DjKrush86]

I haven't checked for hemeochromatosis yet, but I am going to. I don't think that its the issue but i'm going to test if possible. I routinely come up anemic actually. 

[tunt01]

I haven't checked for hemeochromatosis yet, but I am going to. I don't think that its the issue but i'm going to test if possible. I routinely come up anemic actually.

If you have all these routine tests, where are the lab values? Post them.

[stefan_001]

dont know if you drink but ran into this article:

 

http://www.timelessl...rtuin-activity/

 

Alcohol may injure the liver, other organs by reducing NAD+ pool required for sirtuin activity

 

Edited by stefan_001, 02 May 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[vader]

dont know if you drink but ran into this article:

 

http://www.timelessl...rtuin-activity/

 

Alcohol may injure the liver, other organs by reducing NAD+ pool required for sirtuin activity

 

 

yet giving up as an alcoholic can cause death

 

priorities man

[LifeisBall]

I would take a look at Andreas Mortiz. He knows a lot about the liver even if he doesn't have the studies to back it up. He's loved by curezone. 

[Destiny's Equation]

A few years ago I had horrible liver pain and felt "toxic" despite having near-normal bloodwork. I got rid of the pain and "toxic" feeling with the Katie's liver and gallbladder cleanse. The only bad thing was that my kidney problems got worse after repeated liver cleansing (I have since been told by LEF that one is supposed to rotate cleanses, I should have done a kidney cleanse after each liver cleanse).

[Destiny's Equation]

http://www.energyess...e-kit-p-43.html

[AlexCanada]

What would one take for Liver Damage?   Someone I know needs a liver transplant and I wonder what might be able to help if they fail to get one? 

[joelcairo]

Caffeine is strongly liver protective. Not sure if there is anything that can successfully promote healing of a damaged liver. It likely depends on the reason for the liver damage.