22 replies to this topic

[QQQ]

I did my first fast for 21 hours which kick started my ketogenic diet.  The more research I do, the more I think IF is something I will do regularly.  If I do a 24 hour fast every 2 weeks, am I getting enough of the benefits ie autophagy, etc?  Doing it every other day seems too onerous and unrealistic for me.

 

Second question for those ketosis practicioners.  Given all the research showing that methionine is bad for aging, how do you reconcile that with a ketogenic diet?  I'm limiting myself to just salmon and egg whites for protein but even those have quite a bit of methionine.  (I generally don't eat red meat bc of all the inflammation it causes).  Given this fact, I feel that after my keto trial run, I may just move towards a vegan diet.  Any thoughts?

 

 

Edited by QQQ, 05 May 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[sthira]

In my experience fasting for longer and longer periods of time becomes more relaxing and enjoyable as you go. Enjoy the process, and try not to push too hard too quickly. Starting for brief periods like 21-hours is smart. And if you stick with fasting, you'll perhaps realize how readily and easily your body adjusts to the food abstention. Weight loss and muscle loss are generally non-issues expounded precisely upon by people who don't know very much firsthand about the realities of fasting.

To inspire you, YouTube "Goldhamer fasting" -- he says great stuff. Also Valter Longo of course -- his studies and cautious comments -- he speaks intelligently about the process and what's going on within during "fasting mimicking diets." And I'm enjoying Damien Blenkinsopp's "The Quantified Body" podcasts about fasting. In particular, you may find it helpful to listen to his interview with Dr. Thomas Seyfreid about water-fasting; he dives deeply into the body's beneficial biochemical processes that occur during extended, water-only fasts.

And finally, on this site, xEva writes eloquently and with wisdom about her experiences whilst fasting for extended periods of time.

Regarding methionine and pursuing a healthy vegan diet that consists primarily of vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds, and olive oil, that's the approach I've taken for the last several years. It works well for me, and particularly in tandem with short fasts, intermediate fasts, and longer fasts of >10-days a few times per year. If you go vegan, you may want to enter several days of atypical diet into cronometer just to track the components you may be lacking. For me, I supplement D, B12, choline, and biotin, which seems to work.

Edited by sthira, 05 May 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Avocado, Olive Oil, Nuts, Fish is where I get most of my fats from on Keto.

[shadowhawk]

Dr Jasin Fung is great.  https://intensivedie...gement.com/    I have done internet fasting for over a year, three times a week .  Many health benefits.  Longest fast 10 days.

[QQQ]

Thanks for the info sthira.  I supplement all of those except Choline already so I'm probably not going to be deficient in those.  

 

Mikeinnaples - almost exactly what I'm doing right now except I do egg whites in the AM as well.

 

 

[shadowhawk]

Along with the oils mentioned Butter and MTC oil.  It depends on what you are trying to accomplish what else you eat.

[QQQ]

I'm sticking with just coconut oil since I feel most comfortable with the research of its health benefits.  Overloading on butter seems counter to what I feel is healthy and I'm not convinced that there aren't deleterious health effects from consuming so much of it.  

 

I'm basically doing Keto and trying my best to stick with foods that most research deems "healthy".  

 

Needless to say my food options are extremely limited.  

 

But I've stripped away body fat at a ridiculously fast speed.  I started at 167 and now weigh 160 in just one week (fully hydrated).  I'm probably not consuming enough calories if I'm dropping weight this quickly.  

I had a six pack of abs before the diet, and am now probably in single digit body fat percentages.  

 

I'm curious how the next week will go and if this will taper off

[mikeinnaples]

When I was in keto last year, I combined it with low calorie for a while. I am hesitant to use the word calorie restriction, but I was at a negative calorie intake as compare to consumption for several months.

 

Energy levels were good until I got down to extremely low body fat (3% estimated). I found when I was that low that once the fat from my food was gone, my energy immediately went with it as I had nothing in my body to draw on. However, I could eat an avocado (for example) and by back to full energy in 15 minutes.

 

That was too low for me to maintain and feel good though, so I trying to stick around 8% or so.

[sthira]

I tried to make it at 4% body fat (home scaled) but just could not do it. No energy, I felt hypoglycemic, looked skeletal, my blood pressure is too low... Avocados, nuts, olive oil brought me back up to 8-10% and that's where I'm living and it feels pretty clean and good. Sometimes I've too much energy and can get a little hyper. I find both intermittent fasting and prolonged fasts can really mess with sleep. And I can't decide if my body just needs less sleep (doubtful) or if it's psychological stress (my hypothesis)...

[playground]

I too started by fasting 12 hours, then 14 hours then 16 hours.

And during these fasting periods i discovered that i was in ketosis using keto diastix

(which you have to pee on ..  there's a colour change if there's ketones in your urine)

I also noticed a certain increased energy whilst fasting... I also noticed a little

brain fog too...  a certain absence of clarity... i presume this was due to the absence

of carbs.

 

Do you need to fast ?

Ron Rosedale, one of the original champions of Low and ultra-low carb diets

is basically saying you don't need to fast.  You collect *most* of the fasting benefits

when you hop on the keto diet bus.

 

Most, not all. 

As i currently understand it....the big benefit you get rapidly from fasting

... is that your "fasting insulin level" (FIL) is driven south by protracted fasting.  

This FIL is often seen as an index of diabetes progression... low is good (normal) high is bad (pathological)

Perhaps your FIL would drop slowly on a keto diet...

... I dont know.. I'm guessing or presuming.. but i have no data to support my optimism.

 

So having spent some time exploring fasting for various periods.

My current plan, is to hop on the keto diet bus...  and then, after my 3+ weeks initiation,

begin to think about adding a regular fasting period into my life-style.

The key question is... is it necessary ? If my FIL is already low why bother fasting ?

If Ron Rosedale is correct, then perhaps fasting is pointless.... if.... you are keto dieting.

 

Q1:  How will I know when my initiation is complete ?

I keep getting headaches, i occasionally feel nauseous, and this is despite having

salt and magnesium citrate drinks first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

(I know i need to add in potassium...  but i can't find it in the shops locally)

 

Q2:  How are others managing their mineral supplementation ?

Are you drinking salt/magnesium/potassium drinks during the day ?

Are you taking mineral supplements ?

Are you drinking colloidal minerals ?

 

Thanks to anyone that answers any of these questions

 

playground

[shadowhawk]

It often takes up to 3 weeks to get into keto.  Once you are adapted I have found I can get into Keto faster.  I use a pinch or two of sea sault with every meal and am sure I get enough fat.  You need the energy.  I take minerals with my stack.  I suggest you Google the Diet Doctor and get on His mailing list.  Lots of good videos and information as well as contacts.  Also Keto OS is a good supplement to get you into Keto but it is expensive.  Google Jimmie Moore and there you will have interesting podcasts as well as sources for supplements.  Try Butter Bob on you tube for simple but good information.

[shadowhawk]

Also, Precision Xtra is both a blood meter and a Keto meter.  It is the best way to measure ketones but the test strips cost a bit.  https://www.abbottdi.../precision-xtra

 

[gamesguru]

i kind of do the opposite, some days i'll eat a bunch of fruit and maybe a little portion of something else. many of the fruit biochemicals actually help regulate the insulin response (some are not water-soluble so juices are bad, they stay with the fiber), and ive heard the body always breaks down fat before muscle, so i dont think it matters much what you do.

Greater consumption of specific whole fruits, particularly blueberries, grapes, and apples, is significantly associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes, whereas greater consumption of fruit juice is associated with a higher risk.

Our findings are consistent with diet recommendations to consume about 200 g/day of fruits to prevent type 2 diabetes.

[shadowhawk]

For a great list of foods,  https://optimisingnu...toinal-ketosis/

 

It is all about insulin no matter what you eat.  It does matter.

[gamesguru]

Luteolin inhibits IGF-1, while horny goat weed promotes its expression. so many common plants can benefit diabetics. dates, one of the highest GI foods, over 100, is shocking anti-diabetic... owing, you guessed it, to its flavonoid content!

Relevance of fruits, vegetables and flavonoids from fruits and vegetables during early life, mid-childhood and adolescence for levels of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) and its binding proteins IGFBP-2 and IGFBP-3 in young adulthood.
Krupp D1, Remer T1, Penczynski KJ1, Bolzenius K1, Wudy SA2, Buyken AE1. (2016)

The growth hormone (GH) insulin-like growth factor (IGF) axis has been linked to insulin metabolism and cancer risk. Experimental evidence indicates that the GH-IGF axis itself can be influenced by dietary flavonoids. As fruit and vegetable (FV) intake is a major source of flavonoid consumption, FV's beneficial health effects may be explained via flavonoids' influence on the GH-IGF axis, but observational evidence is currently rare. We used data from Dortmund Nutritional and Anthropometric Longitudinally Designed Study participants to analyse prospective associations between FV, fruit intake and flavonoid intake from FV (FlavFV) with IGF-1 and its binding proteins IGFBP-2 and IGFBP-3. Subjects needed to provide a fasting blood sample in adulthood (18-39 years) and at least two 3-d weighed dietary records in early life (0·5-2 years, n 191), mid-childhood (3-7 years, n 265) or adolescence (girls: 9-15 years, boys: 10-16 years, n 261). Additional analyses were conducted among those providing at least three 24-h urine samples in adolescence (n 236) to address the predictor urinary hippuric acid (HA), a biomarker of polyphenol intake. Higher fruit intake in mid-childhood and adolescence was related to higher IGFBP-2 in adulthood (P=0·03 and P=0·045). Comparable trends (P=0·045-0·09) were discernable for FV intake (but not FlavFV) in all three time windows. Similarly, higher adolescent HA excretion tended to be related (P=0·06) to higher adult IGFBP-2 levels. Regarding IGFBP-3, a marginal (P=0·08) positive association was observed with FlavFV in mid-childhood only. None of the investigated dietary factors was related to IGF-1. In conclusion, higher fruit and FV intakes during growth may be relevant for adult IGFBP-2, but probably not for IGFBP-3 or IGF-1.

Effect of Citrus Flavonoids, Naringin and Naringenin, on Metabolic Syndrome and Their Mechanisms of Action1,2
M. Ashraful Alam3,4,*, Nusrat Subhan5, M. Mahbubur Rahman4 (2014)

Flavonoids are important natural compounds with diverse biologic activities. Citrus flavonoids constitute an important series of flavonoids. Naringin and its aglycone naringenin belong to this series of flavonoids and were found to display strong anti-inflammatory and antioxidant activities. Several lines of investigation suggest that naringin supplementation is beneficial for the treatment of obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and metabolic syndrome. A number of molecular mechanisms underlying its beneficial activities have been elucidated. However, their effect on obesity and metabolic disorder remains to be fully established. Moreover, the therapeutic uses of these flavonoids are significantly limited by the lack of adequate clinical evidence. This review aims to explore the biologic activities of these compounds, particularly on lipid metabolism in obesity, oxidative stress, and inflammation in context of metabolic syndrome.

Influence of flavonoid-rich fruit and vegetable intake on diabetic retinopathy and diabetes-related biomarkers.
Mahoney SE1, Loprinzi PD2. (2014)

OBJECTIVE:
(1) Determine the relationship between dietary flavonoid-rich fruit and vegetable consumption on diabetes-related biomarkers (e.g., HgbA1c) and diabetic retinopathy.
METHODS:
Data from 381 participants with diabetes from the NHANES 2003-2006 were analyzed. Blood samples were taken to measure C-reactive protein (CRP), HgbA1C, and fasting glucose and insulin. Diabetic retinopathy was assessed from a retinal imaging exam. A high-flavonoid fruit and vegetable consumption (HFVC) index variable was created from a food frequency questionnaire (FFQ).
RESULTS:
After adjustments, greater HFVC was associated (p<0.05) with lower levels of CRP (β=-0.005), HgbA1C (β=-0.005) and glucose (β=-0.59), with greater HFVC reducing the odds of having diabetic retinopathy by 30%.
CONCLUSION:
Adults with diabetes consuming more flavonoid-rich fruits and vegetables had lower degrees of inflammation, better glycemic control, and reduced odds of diabetic retinopathy.

Cocoa flavonoids improve insulin signalling and modulate glucose production via AKT and AMPK in HepG2 cells.
Cordero-Herrera I1, Martín MA, Bravo L, Goya L, Ramos S. (2013)
SCOPE:
Cocoa and (-)-epicatechin (EC), a main cocoa flavanol, have been suggested to exert beneficial effects in diabetes, but the mechanism for their insulin-like effects remains unknown. In this study, the modulation of insulin signalling by EC and a cocoa phenolic extract (CPE) on hepatic HepG2 cells was investigated by analysing key proteins of the insulin pathways, namely insulin receptor, insulin receptor substrate (IRS) 1 and 2, PI3K/AKT and 5'-AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), as well as the levels of the glucose transporter GLUT-2 and the hepatic glucose production.
METHODS AND RESULTS:
EC and CPE enhanced the tyrosine phosphorylation and total insulin receptor, IRS-1 and IRS-2 levels and activated the PI3K/AKT pathway and AMPK in HepG2 cells. CPE also enhanced the levels of GLUT-2. Interestingly, EC and CPE modulated the expression of phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase, a key protein involved in the gluconeogenesis, leading to a diminished glucose production. In addition, EC- and CPE-regulated hepatic gluconeogenesis was prevented by the blockage of AKT and AMPK.
CONCLUSION:
Our data suggest that EC and CPE strengthen the insulin signalling by activating key proteins of that pathway and regulating glucose production through AKT and AMPK modulation in HepG2 cells.

[shadowhawk]

An Easy Test would be for a diabetic to eat dates and see what happens.  All those things mentioned can help, especially fiber but I ate a lot of fruit and vegetables throughout my life and still got T2 Diabetes.  3 shots of Insulin a day plus meds and lots of supplements.  Now, no insulin, no meds just a LCHF diet with intermediate fasting got me totally back to normal.  Google David Mendoza who cured his diabetes through a low Carb diet.  He followed Dr. Birnstene.  You have to stop the uncontrolled insulin and vegetables fruit, excessive protein and grains can spike it since they all have carbs..  See the insulin index.

[playground]

An Easy Test would be for a diabetic to eat dates and see what happens.

 

You're a diabetic, Shadow... maybe you could ...err..  try it ? ;-)
 

[gamesguru]

i feel like a well-balanced diet with evenly spaced meals would control many cases of runaway T2. the LCHF has lasting benefits then, you just boost it by fasting?  the point im trying to make is that something as simple as dates or decaffeinated tea can be good for diabetes. there are many places to look for inspiration on this subject.

Role of various flavonoids: Hypotheses on novel approach to treat diabetes
S. Mohana, L. Nandhakumarb (2014)

Basically flavonoids are naturally occurring phenolic compounds that are distributed in plants. They contain wide range of biological activity and lot of research has been carried out on their potential role in treating diabetes and other diseases. Most importantly the flavonoids and their related natural compounds are known to encompass antidiabetic potential, demonstrated in various animal models. Such beneficial flavonoids are less utilized on account of its deprived solubility, decreased bioavailability; first pass metabolism and intestinal degradation. However, flavonoids are capable of improving, stabilizing and long sustaining the insulin secretion, human islets and pancreatic cell respectively. In this article we propose, remarkable antidiabetic activity of flavonoids as well as few approaches on nanoparticulate systems in diabetes induced animal models. The proposed nanoparticulate system of flavonoids is projected to improve the solubility, bioavailability, by passing the first pass metabolism and decreasing susceptibility to intestinal environment as compared to pure flavonoid isolates. Further, this hypothesis exemplifies to enhance the efficacy of flavonoids in a novel way of antidiabetic treatment.

Flavonoids as promising lead compounds in type 2 diabetes mellitus: molecules of interest and structure-activity relationship.
Nicolle E1, Souard F, Faure P, Boumendjel A. (2011)

There is evidence that hyperglycemia results in the generation of reactive oxygen species, leading to oxidative stress in various tissues, including vascular system. An important link between oxidative stress, inflammatory response and insulin activity is now well established. The ability of antioxidants to protect against the deleterious effects of hyperglycemia and also to improve glucose metabolism and intake must be considered as leads of choice in diabetes treatment. In addition to their antioxidative activity, many flavonoids were demonstrated to act on biological targets involved in type 2 diabetes mellitus such as: α-glycosidase, glucose cotransporter or aldose reductase. In this context, flavonoids behaving as antioxidants were studied as potential drugs by acting as biological targets involved in diabetes development. In this review, we propose to shed light on antioxidants flavonoids investigated as antidiabetics. A special focus was made to address the structure-activity relationship related to the effect of these naturally occurring molecules on different targets involved in diabetes development.

[shadowhawk]

 

An Easy Test would be for a diabetic to eat dates and see what happens.

 

You're a diabetic, Shadow... maybe you could ...err..  try it ? ;-)
 

 

I have used dates as a sweetener in smoothies and at many other times.  They always cause a sugar spike for me when I test.  Fruit can cause sugar spikes as most diabetics will tell you.High nutrition low GI vegetables are good food but you still have to watch out for  reactions.  Dates are medium GI food but they have a lot of fiber.  So you could do far worse but also far better.

  https://optimisingnu...nse-superfoods/

Testing will tell the truth so we don't have to argue about  it.  So test.

 

 

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 June 2016 - 07:42 PM.

[playground]

I'm sticking with just coconut oil since I feel most comfortable with the research of its health benefits.  Overloading on butter seems counter to what I feel is healthy and I'm not convinced that there aren't deleterious health effects from consuming so much of it.  

 

I'm basically doing Keto and trying my best to stick with foods that most research deems "healthy".  

 

Needless to say my food options are extremely limited.  

 

But I've stripped away body fat at a ridiculously fast speed.  I started at 167 and now weigh 160 in just one week (fully hydrated).  I'm probably not consuming enough calories if I'm dropping weight this quickly.  

I had a six pack of abs before the diet, and am now probably in single digit body fat percentages.  

 

I'm curious how the next week will go and if this will taper off

 

Hi QQQ, 

 

I am very interested in how things evolved for you since 08 May when you made this post originally.

 

Do you mind if i ask you some simple questions ?

 

1.  Are you still on a keto diet ?

2.  If yes,  I presume your food choices have evolved since 08th May. 

     What are you now eating, typically, on an average day ?
3.  If no,  how long did you stay on the Keto diet ?

     What were the main factors that made you stop the diet ?

4.  What was your starting body weight before keto dieting.

5.  What was your lowest body weight (presumably) during keto dieting.

6.  Did you take pics of your body before, during or after your keto diet ?

     Can we see them ?

7.  How did you cope with the requirement to supplement salt,

     magnesium and potassium whilst on the keto diet ?

     (i.e. did you take specific supplements or did you make 'bone broths' or

      did you, for example, make it a daily ritual to eat spinach/kale/chard/herbs

      in a soup/stew)

8.   What was your overall impression of keto ?

      What was good ? What was bad ? What was ugly ? Will you do it again ?

 

best wishes

 

playground

Edited by playground, 14 June 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

It often takes up to 3 weeks to get into keto.  Once you are adapted I have found I can get into Keto faster.  I use a pinch or two of sea sault with every meal and am sure I get enough fat.  You need the energy.  I take minerals with my stack.  I suggest you Google the Diet Doctor and get on His mailing list.  Lots of good videos and information as well as contacts.  Also Keto OS is a good supplement to get you into Keto but it is expensive.  Google Jimmie Moore and there you will have interesting podcasts as well as sources for supplements.  Try Butter Bob on you tube for simple but good information.

 

You can do it in under a week with success depending on what you are beginning with and your motivation to do so.

[QQQ]

 

I'm sticking with just coconut oil since I feel most comfortable with the research of its health benefits.  Overloading on butter seems counter to what I feel is healthy and I'm not convinced that there aren't deleterious health effects from consuming so much of it.  

 

I'm basically doing Keto and trying my best to stick with foods that most research deems "healthy".  

 

Needless to say my food options are extremely limited.  

 

But I've stripped away body fat at a ridiculously fast speed.  I started at 167 and now weigh 160 in just one week (fully hydrated).  I'm probably not consuming enough calories if I'm dropping weight this quickly.  

I had a six pack of abs before the diet, and am now probably in single digit body fat percentages.  

 

I'm curious how the next week will go and if this will taper off

 

Hi QQQ, 

 

I am very interested in how things evolved for you since 08 May when you made this post originally.

 

Do you mind if i ask you some simple questions ?

 

1.  Are you still on a keto diet ?

2.  If yes,  I presume your food choices have evolved since 08th May. 

     What are you now eating, typically, on an average day ?
3.  If no,  how long did you stay on the Keto diet ?

     What were the main factors that made you stop the diet ?

4.  What was your starting body weight before keto dieting.

5.  What was your lowest body weight (presumably) during keto dieting.

6.  Did you take pics of your body before, during or after your keto diet ?

     Can we see them ?

7.  How did you cope with the requirement to supplement salt,

     magnesium and potassium whilst on the keto diet ?

     (i.e. did you take specific supplements or did you make 'bone broths' or

      did you, for example, make it a daily ritual to eat spinach/kale/chard/herbs

      in a soup/stew)

8.   What was your overall impression of keto ?

      What was good ? What was bad ? What was ugly ? Will you do it again ?

 

best wishes

 

playground

 

 

1.  I'm off the keto diet now.  Once I hit my target body fat and weight, I added fruits back into my diet.  I can't justify cutting fruits out for the long term.  Other than fruits and occasional carbs like lentils, I'm still eating a ketogenic-like diet.  

3.  About 3 weeks - absolutely no carbs

4.  Body weight was close to 170lbs 

5.  Body weight at the end of keto was 155lbs.

6.  I did take pics.  I'll find them and upload them later

7.  I heavily salt all my food so sodium intake was not an issue.  Magnesium I supplement.  I believe Kale has quite a bit of magnesium so that was also adding to the requirement.  

8.  Keto was great.  I'm about to do another 2 week run soon.  I'm probably going to cycle on and off keto for the long term.  

[nickdino]

Can anyone provide Valter Longo's official or other correct protocols of one or more of the variations of fasting mimicking diets please? Especially the more intense ones.