21 replies to this topic

[FrostIX]

I'll keep this short to avoid drawing it out. I've seen several doctors and they are totally stumped. This is becoming such a serious problem that it is impacting my work. I have almost been forced to take time off work because it requires delicate hands and that is impossible when my entire body is spasming every 5 seconds from hiccups. It's even effecting my mental health, and I can't even get any work done at the computer, let alone concentration. Trying to handle the hiccups requires so much willpower, that focusing on something intellectual is almost out of the question.

 

Long story short, I started taking 15g of astralagus every 2 days for about a week, for only a week, and then I suddenly started to get hiccups consistently after eating. These are not normal hiccups, they last 3-4 days each time, and hit me every 5 seconds. Calling it torturous doesn't even begin to describe it. They seem to hit consistently about 2-3 hours after eating certain food, making me think it is intestinal in nature.

 

I've been unable to pinpoint the cause down to any particular ingredient. However, I do notice that I get them every time I eat any kind of meat, pasta, carbonated drink, and sugary candy. It's not gluten I don't think, because I can eat other gluten things without issue. I have no issue eating cheese, thankfully.

 

Is it possible Astralagus could have made me develop some kind of severe immune reaction? I haven't taken it in months and yet the hiccups continue. I don't know what to do.

[sativa]

Hmm, perhaps there is a link between your hiccups and the autonomic nervous system? Perhaps vagus nerve stimulation might reduce your hiccups. There are many simple ways such as bitters (I chew juniper berries) etc

Astralagus stimulates th1 and lowers th2 immune response. I am currently taking it to reduce my th2 immune response which was increased by Pau d'arco (indirectly via NRF2 pathway stimulation which deals with detoxification).

Effects of Astragalus membranaceus in promoting T-helper cell type 1 polarization and interferon-gamma production by up-regulating T-bet expression in patients with asthma.

Source: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17361521

With high (dominant) th2 I became much more reactive to pollen (my hay fever has been gone for years).

Self hacked has a very insightful info on immune system balance:

Main article:
https://selfhacked.c...-th2-dominance/

Astralagus & th2 response:
https://selfhacked.c...e-th2-dominant/

What would be interesting is to see if you exhibit any signs of th1/th2 immune system dominance and rebalance it accordingly - it might help with the hiccups.

If Astralagus was the thing that triggered them, and Astralagus predominantly affects immune system response, then perhaps it's as simple as rebalancing tje immune system.

It's also possible that Astralagus triggered or made apparent something else that was previously hidden - pure speculation though.


Lastly, if these are the only foods you can't eat (meat, pasta, carbonated drink, and sugary candy) then stop eating them, until you find the underlying cause of your hiccups.

Thankfully none are critical for optimal health!!

I suppose some would argue that meat is important but supplementation of meat only nutrients is feasible, and protein powders are easy to incorporate in diet (I use pea protein powder in my food, the taste is agreeable and blends in well. I also depends on other protein sources - no nuts or seeds mind you; suffice to say, overall daily protein intake is met)

Oh, also, have you taken antibiotics in the past? Antibiotics, along with meat and sugary candy (and dairy + wheat) can have serious detrimental effects on your gut flora (health, population and type) which are responsible for many crucial far reaching health benefits, (including your immune system of course)

It would be a good idea to ensure your gut flora is up to scratch (perhaps by consuming fermented foods and drinks, or soil based probiotics) to increase your chances of solving these hiccups.

Edited by sativa, 08 May 2016 - 10:33 PM.

[FrostIX]

Is it even possible for my th1/th2 levels to become permanently altered just by taking Astralagus for a week? Isn't that something my body would automatically readjust?

 

My Doctor also suggested it could be a kidney issue, and may have something to do with excess ammonia in the blood. I actually have noticed that I've been more mentally energetic over the past few months. In fact, my energy levels are the highest when I have the hiccups, but I just assumed that was because of how much sheer effort it took to maintain them, the blood rushing to my abdominal muscles for hours straight. I even sweat when I have the hiccups because they require so much effort to handle.

 

When I say my energy levels are high when I have the hiccups, I don't mean like caffeine-jittery high. I mean, I feel like superman. I feel like I can punch through walls and jump over buildings - it's a physical sensation/urge, not psychological. My attitude even becomes more cocky and I become more prone being aggressive (in a manic way). However, it's all for nothing if the hiccups prevent me from functioning... Astralagus is considered a Chi Tonic, and I believe I've read that it does have an effect on kidney function, so maybe this is all tied in somehow.

 

The other option I was researching was prostate cancer. Apparently, persistent hiccups are a very common symptom of it. This scares me because sometimes my hiccups will start up right when I sit down. Hopefully this isn't the case, as I'm not even 25 yet and I am in extremely good shape.

Edited by FrostIX, 09 May 2016 - 02:04 AM.

[niner]

If it's any consolation, you're highly unlikely to get prostate cancer at your age.  The mania-like symptoms suggest something neurological, rather than immunological.   Was the astragalus that you were taking in the form of the raw herb, or was it a concentrated extract?  Where did it come from?  I'm thinking about contaminants or other sources of toxicity-- Astragalus is a very large plant genus, including some toxic species.  Could it have been the wrong kind of astragalus?

[FrostIX]

It was the correct variety, I remember researching this before ordering. Powdered herb, not an extract, from a reputable supplement company, that I'll avoid mentioning for now. I really doubt any contaminants are to blame. I did a bit more reading and here's my conclusion:

 

The facts:

• I took a kidney/immuno/energy stimulant
• That caused sustained elevated energy levels  (even when the hiccups are gone, I noticed this energy difference months ago)
• along with persistent hiccups from random foods - information on Celiacs Disease tells us that it is an allergic(autoimmune) response to gluten that has been known to cause persistent hiccups
• Doctor suggested persistent hiccups could be caused by abnormal kidney function (before I told him of Astralagus) - google confirmed relationship between kidney issues and persistent hiccups.

 

There's a lot of strong evidence suggesting the problem is kidney/immune related. Back to the doctor I suppose.

 

I really want to be able to take Astralagus again. I wonder why it caused this response. I've heard it's normal for people to take doses some 3-5x greater than what I did.

Edited by FrostIX, 09 May 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[sativa]

Is it even possible for my th1/th2 levels to become permanently altered just by taking Astralagus for a week? Isn't that something my body would automatically readjust?

This is not really an area I am very knowledgeable in, but from what I gather, th1/th2(and th17) do not become permanently fixed. The response levels definitely change, for example a pregnant woman would experience a reduction in either th1/2 as otherwise, her immune system would recognise the baby as a foreign invader and reject/kill it.

I really want to be able to take Astralagus again. I wonder why it caused this response. I've heard it's normal for people to take doses some 3-5x greater than what I did.

Regarding your desire to use Astralagus, there are some cases where some herbs are just not at all suited to a persons [current] constitution. For example, I mentioned earlier about my experience with pau d'arco.

This is a concept I learned from traditional Chinese medicine, which also gave me insight into the underlying energetic properties and interactions that herbs have with our bodies, as well as any symptoms. This is a perspective that western medicine tends to overlook.

Do you have any knowledge of the concepts of traditional Chinese medicine?


Starting with the basics, what is your diet composed of?

Do you regularly take any drugs or herbs?

Edited by sativa, 09 May 2016 - 10:21 AM.

[sativa]

Also, what is the condition of your adrenal glands - ie have you been under constant stress for any prolonged period etc.

Adrenals tie into cortisol which is linked to many aspects of your health.

[niner]

Astragalus is supposed to help the kidneys, not hurt them.  Frequent hiccups are a symptom of kidney disease, not kidney health.  The kidney connection is not adding up (unless bad astragalus injured your kidneys).  If your kidneys are sick enough to induce hiccups, then your doctor should be able to see the problem with blood tests.   I think that celiac disease is a longshot, but you could try a gluten-free diet for a while to see if the hiccups subside.  The fact that you can eat gluten without getting the hiccups suggests that it isn't celiac.  It does sound like it's food related, so your best bet is probably to figure out exactly what the triggers are, and avoid them.

 

You might be able to get your doctor to write a prescription for blood chemistry, then hold on to it until the next time you get the hiccups.  When you get them, go immediately to get your blood drawn.  That way you could see if anything was wildly amiss during an attack.  You could repeat the test when quiescent for a comparison.

 

There are drugs that are used to treat long-term hiccups:  Chlorpromazine, Metoclopramide, or Baclofen.  Vagus nerve stimulation is also used.  I really think you should see a doctor rather than try to self-diagnose using google.

Edited by niner, 09 May 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[sativa]

TCM/eastern perspective on hiccups:

The best explanation for cause of hiccup is found in TCM:
(1)Liver chi stagnation (stagnation of energy flowing through liver)
(2)Stomach chi rebelling upwards (which normally flows downwards)
Liver is the principle organ that regulates chi or energy that circulates all over the body. Rebelling of stomach chi is a result of the first cause. Ayurveda says it is a vata disorder.

Modern medicine attributes causes to eating too quickly or too much, irritation of nerves of the diaphragm due to infections, cancer etc, which are also results of the two causes above.

Complications of intractable hiccups:
(1) Cardiac arrhythmias: Liver chi stagnation disrupts the wind energy causing Cardiac arrhythmia (a wind disorder of heart). If you treat the liver chi stagnation, the arrhythmia will be cured.
(2) Gastro esophageal reflux: due to stomach chi rebelling upwards.

[joelcairo]

To be fair, the OP did say he had already consulted several doctors without apparently identifying the source of the problem.

[sativa]

To be fair, the OP did say he had already consulted several doctors without apparently identifying the source of the problem.

Hmm..western docs sometimes lack the more "wholesome" understanding/perspective of how the body works. Materialism aside...

[niner]

 

To be fair, the OP did say he had already consulted several doctors without apparently identifying the source of the problem.

Hmm..western docs sometimes lack the more "wholesome" understanding/perspective of how the body works. Materialism aside...

 

Yeah, but what does something like "liver chi stagnation" even mean?  Where do you go from there?  I suppose that a TCM practitioner would know what to do in this event, and would have some sort of herbal treatment that would kinda work if you're lucky.  I feel like TCM is a more or less self-consistent set of explanations that can guide treatment to some extent, but those explanations don't actually connect to anything real, and you can't go any further with it.  At least with Western medicine, (as crappy as the practitioners sometimes are), it's based on cells and molecules and things that actually exist.  We are constantly making progress with it.  There's a whole world of scientists who understand the rules; you don't have to practice under a master for years to learn a craft that you can't explain other than within the narrow confines of the existing knowledge.  I guess I'm going to get heat from the TCM guys for this little diatribe, but where is the proof that TCM works better than Western medicine in the general case? 

 

I suggested that the OP continue to pursue the doctor route because I don't think that the self-diagnosis is getting the right answers.  The trick is to find the right doctor.  I think a neurologist would be a reasonable place to look.  A good internist should be able to direct the patient to the right specialist.  It's not very helpful if they just say "I'm stumped, see ya later".   OP needs someone who can direct him to the best guy for intractable hiccups.  IMHO, that someone would be the "good internist", but you also have to figure out how to find one of those.  It's a frustrating situation.

[Ark]

Cannabis can have a effect on the immune system, perhaps you should look into this option among others.

[Ark]

http://www.jbc.org/c...0.full.pdf html

[sativa]

To be fair, the OP did say he had already consulted several doctors without apparently identifying the source of the problem.

Hmm..western docs sometimes lack the more "wholesome" understanding/perspective of how the body works. Materialism aside...

...I feel like TCM is a more or less self-consistent set of explanations that can guide treatment to some extent, but those explanations don't actually connect to anything real, and you can't go any further with it.

At least with Western medicine, (as crappy as the practitioners sometimes are), it's based on cells and molecules and things that actually exist.

TCM and other traditional medicinal systems such as the Indian variety deal with the systems that underlay the physical structures, systems that are as real as "cells and molecules". They are both "things that actually exist" as you put it, and thus, have equal validity.

Here's a section of a post i wrote on TCM and my experience/approach. I dont want to derail this thread so follow the link to see the rest.

...
I started my journey into TCM last year, and am continually learning and incorporating its "perspective" into mine.
I am essentially incorporating and uniting all medicinal systems and perspectives (from the East and the West), as I believe this is the most effective way of gaining insight and understanding of the bigger picture.
...

Edited by sativa, 10 May 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[joelcairo]

My earlier comment was actually aimed at niner's admonition to the OP to see real doctors instead of self-diagnosing. The comment on Chinese medicine slipped in moments before I posted. Not that I think that the ultimate problem is "liver stagnation", but I wasn't trying to make any suggestions or criticize any suggestions.

[sativa]

Ah I see; Ok, understood!

[FrostIX]

I have an update. I noted in an above post that I got hiccups every time I ate pasta. Pasta is actually one of those things that give me the most extreme, longest lasting, most rapid hiccups. Well, I had some gluten-free pasta today,and what do you know... no hiccups, at all. If that's a coincidence, it's a big one, considering how significant my hiccups were all the previous times I had pasta. However, the gluten hypothesis only explains some of my food items.

 

While I don't think I have Celiac, I read that people who do have it are at an increased risk of Kidney issues, which further suggests the link between kidney and immune function, and how Astralagus may play a role here. I'm guessing the Astralagus had some sort of excessively stimulating effect on my Kidney's. While Astralagus is considered a healthy herb, I believe I may have overdone it by taking such a large dose without building my dose up overtime. Whatever Astralagus "overstimulated", it could explain why my energy levels have been so great the past few months. The past few months have been damn near euphoric, with my sleep quality being excellent, and my energy levels being superb.

 

I have noticed that the frequency which my hiccups occur and the length of time which they last seems to have started to reduce over the months. I am not sure if that is because I am avoiding certain foods, or if my biochemistry is readjusting.

 

I'll talk to my doctor about this and see if he feels whether or not having a Kidney panel done is the next best move.

Edited by FrostIX, 10 May 2016 - 05:20 PM.

[joelcairo]

I think the astragalus may be a red herring. Even though 15g is a lot, if you only took it 4 times or so, I don't think it could have ramped up your immune system and induced an allergy or an autoimmune effect all within about a week. Not to mention continuing to cause a feeling of euphoria months later.

[niner]

I agree with joelcairo.  While it's conceivable that the astragalus was involved, I'm suspicious that it was really something else.  Are you currently taking anything?  (supplements, pharmaceuticals, energy drinks, pre/post workout drinks, etc.)  The energy/hypomania/euphoria thing suggests something CNS-active.  It is possible to get kicked into a hypomania by any of a variety of substances, and then stay there even after the substance is withdrawn.  Usually the hypomanic state fades before too long.  (Unfortunately, since hypomania is pretty fun...)  It's not impossible that astragalus caused you to develop a hypomania, but considering how long it's lasted, I think there's something else driving it.

[FrostIX]

I haven't been taking anything else. I don't think it is too improbable that Astralagus could have induced some kind of lasting change in my biochemistry. There are many herbs in Chinese medicine that are used precisely for this purpose. Rather, they would say that certain herbs are used to correct energy flow problems, or energy blockages, leading to overall improved health. Either way, if the hiccups were caused by the Astralagus, and it has lasted this long, then I don't think elevated energy levels are out of the question. I actually did some reading and learned that Thyroid and Kidney issues can often overlap, for whatever reason. I've experimented with iodine supplements in the past, so I know the thyroid-manic feeling well, and this feels similar to this, however this is smoother.

 

Confirmation bias is one thing, however there's a whole lot of coincidences here and they all point to the kidney/autoimmune function, and Astralagus was the only thing I was taking that effected either of those, and the issues arose at that exact time, so there's really no question at all what caused this. The question is how.

 

 

[niner]

Confirmation bias is one thing, however there's a whole lot of coincidences here and they all point to the kidney/autoimmune function, and Astralagus was the only thing I was taking that effected either of those, and the issues arose at that exact time, so there's really no question at all what caused this. The question is how.

 

I disagree.  The connection between kidneys, hiccups, and astragalus is very tenuous.  Kidney disease can sometimes lead to hiccups.  Astragalus is said to be good for kidneys.  Healthy kidneys do not cause hiccups.  That's not even tenuous; it's non-existent.   You took astagalus and subsequently developed hiccups and something that sounds like a hypomania.  There is no evidence that kidneys are involved.  The fact that you're able to trigger the hiccups with certain foods is a useful data point.  Perhaps there is a gut disfunction / vagus nerve connection here.