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Dopamine Agonist (Cabergoline) Permanent Damage?

dopamine

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#1 ajdude101

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 01:17 AM


Hi all! Back in December/Jan I took Rx Grade Cabergoline for 4 weeks. I took it for bodybuilding to lower prolactin. I found music more enjoyable while taking this, and a week after my last dose, for 4 days straight, music was SUPER euphoric. The car radio would literally make my breath stop. I'm guessing this is some type of rebound? This wasn't a placebo either, I didn't even know that Caber affected dopamine lol. However, since then, I've noticed that I very rarely get pumped from music, and have some anhedonia (not sure if related to the caber)

Did Caber fry my dopamine system? Are my receptors downregulated? I've never used any other drug in my life, and am only on Testosterone Replacement. Any info would help, this is making me kind of depressed. Thanks! :)



#2 gamesguru

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 02:06 AM

Its supposed to be protective
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25909873
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24914776

Perhaps youre just experiencing residual side-effects?
"Side effects for all the dopamine agonists include drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, dizziness, leg swelling, and feeling faint upon standing... confusion, hallucinations, or psychosis... sleepiness, drowsiness, or sedation."

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#3 Baten

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 06:48 AM

How much did you take during these 4 weeks? For bodybuilding/prolactine there's 1mg/2mg tablets which can definitely cause rebound (really high dose!).



#4 ajdude101

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 01:01 PM

.5mg twice a week

#5 Major Legend

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 01:08 PM

Stay away from dopamine agonists. there is a guy called G4D who went south years ago on this forum with something called DAWS. Dopamine Agonist Withdrawal Symptom.

 

Yes you are right dopamine agonists are dopamine activators without any form of biological control whatsoever, so unless you have Parkinson's it's probably not great and will "fry your brains. What you are experience right now will likely go away in time, but if you keep going with it you will be downregulated completely.

 

Some people have used it to success, but I am strongly suspicious of the safety of Parkinson drugs on normal people, however lowering prolactin - I have no idea in that subject matter.



#6 Baten

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 01:21 PM

@Major Legend how about when taking them together with memantine? Shouldn't that lower the chance of things going south?



#7 normalizing

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 02:06 PM

first of all i found it funny how the OP discusses how cabergoline makes him all excited and happy about a hobby and then says "this is making me depressed guys explain" with a huge smiley face post.

 

now to major legend, i have read this before you and some other guys i believe have seen you going around saying this a lot how you knew this ONE person who abused agonists of the dopamine and went sour south but that needs serious evaluation buddy, you cant just keep going around like this claiming such outrageous crap as this is only ONE person story to begin with, has no good references, not reliable at all it can happen to most and there are no reports of such thing EVER. so most importantly either find credible literature on this, more than ONE person been affected by this and/or just stfu ktnx


Edited by normalizing, 16 May 2016 - 02:07 PM.

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#8 Major Legend

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 05:06 PM

first of all i found it funny how the OP discusses how cabergoline makes him all excited and happy about a hobby and then says "this is making me depressed guys explain" with a huge smiley face post.

 

now to major legend, i have read this before you and some other guys i believe have seen you going around saying this a lot how you knew this ONE person who abused agonists of the dopamine and went sour south but that needs serious evaluation buddy, you cant just keep going around like this claiming such outrageous crap as this is only ONE person story to begin with, has no good references, not reliable at all it can happen to most and there are no reports of such thing EVER. so most importantly either find credible literature on this, more than ONE person been affected by this and/or just stfu ktnx

 

Yeah I understand. I am no medical expert, but I am experienced with psychoactives. The DAWS thing wasn't just restricted to 1 person. There are entire threads with multiple people suffering similar kinds of problems. The one guy just had a really excessive version of DAWS.

 

Here I just quickly googled: http://forum.mindand...yndrome-11.html

 

^ Even just on 1 page I can see 3-4 guys experiencing strange symptoms from using Cabergoline.

 

Parkinson drugs are well documented to give strange symptoms to even Parkinson patients. For example one prominent thing Parkinson patients have is they will have these on and off cycles, where on is they are totally over confident, high, gambling etc, and then when off they literally get a complete rebound of Parkinson symptoms even worst than before they got medicated.

 

As somebody experienced with psychoactives and have tried some of these Parkinson drugs during a time of experimentation - I am strongly against people like this OP here using it without even understanding it's power as a dopamine agonist because the kinds of effects from Parkinson Drugs are unlike anything i've ever experienced. 

^ Including anhedonia that seems permanent and not time based, brain fog, tremors, parkinson like symptoms, heart pains, tardive dyskinesia.

 

I simply can't be bothered to explain everything about why Cabergoline should not be a drug to play around with.



#9 Major Legend

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 05:16 PM

@Major Legend how about when taking them together with memantine? Shouldn't that lower the chance of things going south?

 

Memantine works by being a partial NMDA competitor , it works by preventing the natural process of over-excitation via CA2+ ion channel, thus preventing tolerance and synaptic plasticity to an extent.

 

However all these drugs Memantine counters are dopamine releasers not dopamine agonists. The fundamental difference here is things like Adderall forces releases of natural dopamine, as do many other drugs. The body has many mechanisms to recycle dopamine, and has an emphasis of regulating dopamine.

 

A dopamine agonist is something that can activate dopamine receptors without actually being dopamine, however it is still different from actual dopamine, meaning the body may be worst or unable to recycle such chemicals.

 

Exposure to constant dopamine causes a bunch of things that lead to damage, as in the case of Methamphetamine the main cause of it being the long half-life of Methamphetamine, which is why you are more likely to see tweaked our anhedonia types with zombie like states in Meth abuse.

 

Dopamine is the brains natural reward chemical, meaning it is highly stimulatory. In short bursts like caffeine or cocaine the reward is backlashed by a rebound, but for things like dopamine agonists it may very well end up with elevated dopamine activation for long periods of time.

 

Dopamine activation for long periods of time is likely to cause systemic lengthy downregulation of every pleasure/reward system in your brain. As the entire brain relies on dopamine as a prime motivator to actually do things - you can see why Parkinson drugs should not be messed with, unless you really really have done your research.

 

Not to mention dopamine agonists are far more specific than dopamine itself, which may cause a bunch of imbalances between the different subtypes of receptors in the brain, causing an imbalance of signalling pathways thus leading to things like being unable to think properly, or having thought gaps.

 

Following the logic above, once somebody uses Cabergoline there is a chance that the person will always need to take it to keep the above systems running in normal order.

 

Finally Dopamine has huge implications in things like learning and neural linkage, when u learn things dopamine release causes vasodilation in pathways and also triggers the construction of new neural pathways. So you can see how having these pathways downregulated could ruin anyones life.

 

Compare that to GABA abuse, GABA downregulation would cause a permanent inability to calm the brain down and clarify neural signalling leading to increased anxiety, at worst seizures, panic attacks, but it will not stop making you feel pleasure - which I imagine is one of the more important parts of being alive.


Edited by Major Legend, 16 May 2016 - 05:23 PM.

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#10 ajdude101

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 11:42 PM

Forgot to add, two months after stopping, I started to experience tremors all over my body. Tremors in my neck, legs, arms, internal vibrations in my feet. At the same time, I started experiencing symptoms of BFS (Benign Fasculation Syndrome). My Eyelid started twitching for a week, then my shoulder muscle, back muscle, palm, and so on. The tremors have subsided but I still have BFS. Not sure if all of this is related but thought I'd throw it out there. Otherwise I am a healthy 22 year old.



#11 Baten

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 07:07 AM

22 y/o and you're on testosterone replacement? Whoa.



#12 normalizing

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 12:18 PM

Major Legend, what about nicergoline? i could not find any effects on dopamine but it is ergoit drug and supposely helps with dementia. i just brought a bunch a while back for nootropic effect but i never tried them, and if they work similar to dopamine agonists, not sure if i will. also im wondering about those dopa beans, if they cause same rebound dopamine effect like the more potent parkinsons drugs?



#13 Major Legend

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 04:23 PM

Major Legend, what about nicergoline? i could not find any effects on dopamine but it is ergoit drug and supposely helps with dementia. i just brought a bunch a while back for nootropic effect but i never tried them, and if they work similar to dopamine agonists, not sure if i will. also im wondering about those dopa beans, if they cause same rebound dopamine effect like the more potent parkinsons drugs?

 

Dopa Beans by itself won't do much without COMT inhibitor (levodopa/carbidopa)

 

Nicergoline is a different class of drugs alltogether and I haven't hear any particularly bad effects close to dopamine agonist

 

Levodopa do cause the same rebound effects, but L-Dopa is naturally produced in the body so it wouldn't have the same issues a dopamine agonists will cause. Within reason L-Dopa is unlikely to cause any of the serious side effects mentioned above. 

 

All the dopamine agonists act differently. Some people seem to have success with them, powerful receptor specific drugs should not be used unless u know what u are doing, Memantine is a special case because it is non competitive and does not function like a true agonist.

 

With Serotonin u get things like constipation, with dopamine u get things like twitching...remember the chemicals also act on your peripherals which also have the same receptors, dopamine happens to be involved with reflexes and motor control. (hence the stiff movements of parkinson sufferers)



#14 normalizing

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 08:26 PM

actually i enjoy the twitching from dopamine influx (cocaine, amphetamines) its associated with pleasure in my mind now.

 

anyway i ask about nicergoline and its association with dopamine agonists because its from the same ergoid produced drugs that affect dopamine its just doesnt have enough literature behind it except the long term negative side effects as with any ergoid.

 

about dopa beans not being active without COMT inhibitor, why mention specifically levodopa? lots of COMT inhibitors out there, one top of my head is rhodiola but i was thinking, why not just find a natural COMT inhibitor and try the combo



#15 Major Legend

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 05:08 PM

actually i enjoy the twitching from dopamine influx (cocaine, amphetamines) its associated with pleasure in my mind now.

 

anyway i ask about nicergoline and its association with dopamine agonists because its from the same ergoid produced drugs that affect dopamine its just doesnt have enough literature behind it except the long term negative side effects as with any ergoid.

 

about dopa beans not being active without COMT inhibitor, why mention specifically levodopa? lots of COMT inhibitors out there, one top of my head is rhodiola but i was thinking, why not just find a natural COMT inhibitor and try the combo

 

I've tried nicergoline before - didn't feel anything. From what i've read anecdotally - it seems to be the kind of thing that either work or it doesn't. I have certainly never read any DAWS problem from nicergoline.



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#16 John250

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 04:29 AM

I used cabergoline at .5mg 2-3x/wk for 7yrs straight. I had no idea it did anything to dopamine back then us bodybuilders just used it to control prolactin from 19nor steroids and hgh. Figured it was in the same safety class as long term anti estrogens to prevent aromatizing from other steroids. I believe it was 2006-2013 is when I used it. Always had bloodwork and prolactin was <0. When I read about DAWS I stopped it cold turkey and didn’t really notice anything other than less ejaculate volume. Prolactin remained at <0 for around 4 months after cessation and then returned to normal levels.





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