4 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

I see a number of sources of collagen supplements and I'm wondering which ones are worth it if any. I'm also confused about the difference between what I'm reading as peptides and straight hydrolized type II collagen. According to this guy, who's just promoting a UK product, says that the only kind the body absorbs and uses wel is hydrolized type 2.

 

The peptides from Sports Research says "hydrolized" but it specifies "peptides" which seems to be a distinction. I'm also understanding that type 1 is for skin while type 2 is for muscles and joints. Is type 1 absorbable and used? 

 

Is there any actual research on whether orally ingested collagen (or peptides) actually help your body with producing more collagen or rather, prevent your body from depleting it?

 

All I can find are salesmen in any Google search.

 

I'm assuming the peptides are just the precursors necessary for producing collagen, which would imply that the problem with your body's ability to make collagen is about limited supply of materials, not a reduced capacity to create it as fast as it's needed.  I can't imagine that just because you have more precursors for something that it necessarily means your body is going to produce anything from it in greater quantity.

 

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 21 May 2016 - 05:54 PM.

[MrSpud]

No collagen products I'm aware of contain collagen that isn't hydrolyzed. Gelatin is hydrolyzed collagen. Peptides are just chains of amino acids. If you were to completely hydrolyze collagen as much as possible you'd end up with free amino acids because all the chains linking the amino acids are broken and you'd just have free amino acids. Gelatin is just hydrolyzed enough that it is soluble in hot water, but it gels in cold water because the chains of amino acids are still long enough that they can bond to each other in a sort of loose helix to try and reform back into a similar structure they had when they were collagen. If you hydrolyze the gelatin more it looses the ability to gel and becomes cold water soluble. That's the stage that most companies take it to when they want a collagen product. Gelatin actually has the same activities as hydrolyze not collagen peptides has, but it would tend to bloat you, so they hydrolyze it down enough so it can't try and gel in your stomach and then it doesn't bloat. Most of the differences in the types of collagen people sell are overhyped a bit, there may be minor differences in effects, but nothing major.

[aconita]

It seems that a degree of hydrolyzation yielding about 2000 Da collagen is the best since studies showed it can permeate the intestine and get to the blood flow intact (or almost).

 

That is a collagen that has no taste whatsoever and dissolves in cold water promptly without leaving any lump.

 

If collagen is not hydrolyzed enough (high molecular weight) it gets fully hydrolyzed in the stomach (digested) in its amino acids and at that point you can just eat a piece of meat without any substantial difference, it gets digested because being to big can't possibly get absorbed by the intestine as it is.

 

For that reason it is recommended to supplement hydrolyzed collagen at least one hour before a meal or 3 hours after in order to avoid that the digestive process in place for food interacts with the supplemented collagen breaking it down in "useless" amino acids.

 

The bottle neck with collagen is not the lack of building material which is proteins (or more accurately amino acids) and in a decently balanced diet is unlikely to be an issue but the capacity of the organism to assemble those proteins into collagen faster than collagenase breaks it down, ability that typically diminish with aging. 

 

It seems that the type of collagen to be supplemented is irrelevant since it gets easily "adjusted" on request according to specific needs, therefore leave alone the worry of collage for skin or collagen for joints, it just goes where is most needed.

 

Supplementing collagen doesn't help your body to make more of it or prevent depletion (which would be be quite undesirable), it spares the bottleneck of assembling it providing an almost ready to use product and yes, there are studies showing it does work (at least to a certain degree) for skin texture, hair quality and osteoarthritis (don't ask me the references since has been a while and right now I am to lazy to dig them out).

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Supplementing collagen doesn't help your body to make more of it or prevent depletion (which would be be quite undesirable), it spares the bottleneck of assembling it providing an almost ready to use product and yes, there are studies showing it does work (at least to a certain degree) for skin texture, hair quality and osteoarthritis (don't ask me the references since has been a while and right now I am to lazy to dig them out).

 

I see, so by providing it easy to make collagen it speeds up the process of making it again to where faster than your body can use it up, thus allowing your body to send it to less needed places like skin again, or is there some sort of epigenetic change over time that forces your body to send it to where it's needed most?

 

You say preventing depletion is undesirable, what do you mean?

 

Are peptides almost ready to use in regards to sparing the bottleneck?

Edited by Nate-2004, 23 May 2016 - 09:45 PM.

[aconita]

As with many other biological processes with collagen is a perpetual renewal race, collagenase breaks it down while we constantly produce new one.

 

There is a good reason for renewal and collagen doesn't make an exception, if you inhibit collagenase (the enzyme that dismantle collagen) collagen will accumulate and age leading to unpleasant issues.

 

A form of rheumatic arthritis is the caused by (or at least presents the impairment of) collagenase to work as it should, the end result is arthritis that is worst as you wake up in the morning and gets better as you start moving around: the pain is caused by an abnormal accumulation of collagen in the joints which gets "moved away" as you start moving easing the stiffness and pain.

 

Therefore to inhibit collagenase is not a smart way to go, lets leave it alone for the better.

 

If collagen production slows down there is less of it available to replace what collagenase dismantle everywhere in your body, probably the most readily evident will be in skin texture, hair and joints' cartilage, aren't those the typical sign of aging (well..some of the typical signs of aging at least)?

 

Hydrolyzed collagen up to the "right" molecular weight is more kind of shortish peptides chains than just peptides (if with "peptides" we mean single peptides), if the chains are too long (high molecular weight) are unable to permeate the intestine wall and gets digested into amino acids defying the purpose of supplementing, if are too short (too low molecular weight) don't bypass the bottleneck well enough and need to be reassembled too much, again defying the purpose of supplementing.

 

When the chains length is optimal yes, it seems to spare the bottleneck or at least most of it.