22 replies to this topic

[LongingCity]

I've been taking Bacopa since the start of the year, and I've started experiencing the most extreme fatigue of my life since I started doing 1 mg/evening.

 

 

Now, the trouble is, I've not been taking Bacopa for 2 weeks now, since the tiredness was so extreme, but the tiredness is still here. It is also accompanied by night sweats.

 

 

And yet, the cognitive benefits are now fading, and I'm really missing them. Personally, the memory boost was astonishing, and losing it is extremely regrettable.

 

 

How could I get rid of the tiredness? It is...disabling, to put it bluntly.

[gamesguru]

You mean 1000mg?

Try a lower dose, like 250? At different times, sometimes before work, sometimes before bed. And skip some days, better that you take it 4 days with manageable fatigue, than to insist on 7 days or nothing.

Another suggestion is to take with ginkgo or green tea, or a similar stimulant.

[BasicBiO]

Agreed. Lower the dose until you feel better. Green tea really seems to cut through the fatigue.

[psychejunkie]

Too much Acetylcholine transmission may cause Depression or loss of motivation in different individuals

I guess taking St.John Wort extract along with Bacopa might do the trick!

[gamesguru]

I think its more related to increased GABA and serotonin and decreased glutamate. The st johns might not help.

Try eating or not eating eggs, to see if its anything to do with choline.

[psychejunkie]

I think its more related to increased GABA and serotonin and decreased glutamate. The st johns might not help.

Try eating or not eating eggs, to see if its anything to do with choline.

Yes. Excessive Acetylcholine transmission causes reduced Glutamate and Serotonin neurotransmission.

St.John Wort will increase synaptic Glutamate, GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin and Norepinephrine levels by inhibiting their reuptake via agonizing TRPC6 receptors.

Cutting back on Choline sources wont help!

[gamesguru]

Youre overlooking the fact that bacopa significantly boosts serotonin in itself.

Also i believe cutting back on choline sources certainly helps, especially when phosphatidyl- and acetyl-donors are supplemented in its place.

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa increases serotonin production and GABA activity. Endorphins will help reduce the GABA activity. DL-Phenylalanine could help with that. As far as reducing serotonin activity, that's a tough one... The only thing I can think of is supplementing with competitive amino acids to reduce Tryptophan absorption... that and bright light therapy and a cold cloth on the face.

Edit: Just read that calorie restriction lowers tryptophan absorption. Maybe you eat too much?

Edited by devinthayer, 23 May 2016 - 02:37 PM.

[gamesguru]

I read the opposite, that a diet with other amino acids (ahem, bodybuilders?) will compete for tryptophan absorption, and result in less serotonin.

[thedevinroy]

I read the opposite, that a diet with other amino acids (ahem, bodybuilders?) will compete for tryptophan absorption, and result in less serotonin.

Yeah that's what I said. He's stoned from the Bacopa, so he needs LESS tryptophan.


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[gamesguru]

Sometimes I wonder if some of these topics are vagabon redditors with nothing better to do than troll us

[iseethelight]

I'm starting to think that serotonin is good in only very small quantity in men. Anything else will make you anxious, tired, cold, angry, sensitive like a bitch. You might become more intelligent but you won't be able to do anything with that intelligence because you will be too depressed to do anything.

[motorcitykid]

I'm starting to think that serotonin is good in only very small quantity in men. Anything else will make you anxious, tired, cold, angry, sensitive like a bitch. You might become more intelligent but you won't be able to do anything with that intelligence because you will be too depressed to do anything.

 

In my experience, taking a combination of panax ginseng and acety l-carnitine along w/ bacopa helps w/ residual bacopa malaise.

Edited by motorcitykid, 24 May 2016 - 12:55 AM.

[gamesguru]

There's some reports on Reddit that bacopa does make someone more emotion, so there's some truth to that serotonin idea.

[Strelok]

OP, what specific bacopa product are you taking, and what is its concentration (extract potency or % bacopa glycosides...)?

[thedevinroy]

I'm starting to think that serotonin is good in only very small quantity in men. Anything else will make you anxious, tired, cold, angry, sensitive like a bitch. You might become more intelligent but you won't be able to do anything with that intelligence because you will be too depressed to do anything.

actually Bacopa has some effect on hormones, too... Primarily thyroid , maybe others.


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[Blackkzeus]

Bacopa actually increases Thyroid hormones, specifically T4. I think T4 affects brain formation and function, while T3 affects vitality and energy. 

 

I perceive I have high Serotonin levels due to the fact that anything that increases Serotonin makes me feel worse and anything that decreases

it makes me feel better. Not definitely sure of course but As someone with perceived high serotonin, I  have troubles with libido, being too emotional and sensitive, kinda bitch like, anxiety, and fatigue. 

Iseethelight maybe right. 

Edited by Blackkzeus, 24 May 2016 - 06:24 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Serotonin does not give you anxiety... Norepinephrine does though.

Just talking generally speaking of course. You can over complicate things for sure... Make your assumptions, then prove yourself right... Just like theologians.


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Edited by devinthayer, 24 May 2016 - 06:28 PM.

[gamesguru]

Sometimes an SSRI will exacerbate anxiety.

And see these results:
https://www.google.c...causing anxiety

[Blackkzeus]

Serotonin is definitely capable of inducing anxiety. http://area1255.blog...otonin.html?m=1

[gamesguru]

I think its mostly striatal (not cortical) 5ht2c.

first study:
The 5-HT2C receptor has been implicated in mood and eating disorders. In general, it is accepted that 5-HT2C receptor agonists increase anxiety behaviours and induce hypophagia. However, pharmacological analysis of the roles of these receptors is hampered by the lack of selective ligands and the complex regulation of receptor isoforms and expression levels. Therefore, the exact role of 5-HT2C receptors in mood disorders remain controversial, some suggesting agonists and others suggesting antagonists may be efficacious antidepressants, while there is general agreement that antagonists are beneficial anxiolytics.


other study:
5-HT2C sites are involved in the actions of several classes of antidepressant. At the onset of treatment, indirect activation of 5-HT2C receptors participates in the anxiogenic effects of selective 5-HT reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) as well as their inhibition of sleep, sexual behaviour and appetite. Conversely, progressive down-regulation of 5-HT2C receptors parallels the gradual onset of clinical efficacy of SSRIs. Other antidepressants, such as nefazodone or mirtazapine, act as direct antagonists of 5-HT2C receptors. These observations underpin interest in 5-HT2C receptor blockade as a strategy for treating depressive and anxious states...
This article explains how these ostensibly paradoxical actions of 5-HT2C antagonists and agonists can be reconciled and discusses both established and innovative strategies for the exploitation of 5-HT2C receptors in the improved management of depressed and anxious states.

[LongingCity]

OP, what specific bacopa product are you taking, and what is its concentration (extract potency or % bacopa glycosides...)?

Swanson Superior Herbs - Bacognize, whole herb extract, standardized to 12% bacopa glycosides.

 

You mean 1000mg?

Try a lower dose, like 250? At different times, sometimes before work, sometimes before bed. And skip some days, better that you take it 4 days with manageable fatigue, than to insist on 7 days or nothing.

Another suggestion is to take with ginkgo or green tea, or a similar stimulant.

Yes, 1000mg/day.

 

Thing is, as I mentioned in the post, I've been off the Bacopa for a couple of weeks now, but the sedating effects have yet to wear off. It started suddenly - about week 12 of taking the supplement, so around the same time the long term memory effects begin to kick in. At first, I continued, but the extreme exhaustion was too much, and I've been off of the Bacopa for more than 2 weeks now.

 

There's some reports on Reddit that bacopa does make someone more emotion, so there's some truth to that serotonin idea.

Most likely a strange placebo effect - many here on LongeCity have also reported tiredness from Bacopa. My case appears to be a few standard deviations greater than anything I have read about.

Edited by LongingCity, 26 May 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[gamesguru]

Possibly something to do with the thyroid? Or the liver enzyme for bacopa is become inhibited