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Fish oil causing my depression?

depression anxiety acetylcholine choline fish oil

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#1 Jordan23

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Posted 10 July 2016 - 07:55 AM


I don't know if a topic like this has been posted before but basically I'm wondering if my potentially excessive use of fish oil could have caused my depression.

It all started about 2 months ago I was attempting to do two quite difficult assessments for uni and began suffering from intense anxiety. From then on I basically started suffering from a combo of anxiety in the mornings to depression for the rest of the day. Prior to this I began taking 8 x 1000mg fish oil capsules per day for 4-5 months and had never suffered from anxiety or depression before.

After seeing a doctor and being prescribed with 20mg escitalopram my depression began to alleviate and my anxiety essentially disappeared over a few weeks. I began to get back on track and started taking my supplements again which included the fish oil this time at 4 x 1000mg.

Eventually after about 5 weeks into the medication I relapsed again and have been incredibly depressed ever since. I eventually weened off the medication at the direction of my doctor. I have not yet gotten on any other medications.

After reading this article relating depression to fish oil intake

http://mentalhealthd...-acetylcholine/

I began to do more research on high acetylcholine levels and noticed I could relate to most of the symptoms listed here. Including incredibly frequent dreaming and higher incidence of nightmares.


http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

In the supplements listed to increase choline levels fish oil was 3rd.

I've also noticed on days after eating fish, or other foods with high choline levels such as eggs, peanuts and chicken I feel incredibly depressed and have some terrible nightmares.

Edited by Jordan23, 10 July 2016 - 07:58 AM.

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#2 jack black

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Posted 10 July 2016 - 12:17 PM

While I haven't noticed depression (or anythyng else) after fish oil (I take only one capsulea day), eggs breakfast makes me tired indeed. I always thought it was egg allergy (it gave me skin rash when I was a child), but maybe it's something else.

 

Also, phosphatylserine trial did make me very tired and super vivid dreams. On the other hand, DMAE increases mental clarity (supposedly works via ACh, but some people disagree).


Edited by jack black, 10 July 2016 - 12:21 PM.


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#3 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 18 July 2016 - 07:35 PM

Well, if it's high Acetylcholine that's the source of the problem, then there are tons of options.

 

I was just looking into Acetylcholine since someone mentioned that excessive empathy is a direct result of high aCh - and then realized it may be a way of treating Borderline Personality Disorder (a very unfortunate label... it's a neuropsychiatric disorder, which should actually, now that we have the fMRI and molecular data, prove easier to treat than Autism or Schizophrenia, more like ADHD - if the data holds up - Alpha2a-agonists, amygdalic inhibitors and possibly aCh-DEmethylators should do the trick like nobodies business). But traditional anticholinergics cause too much sedation imho, so they are not that practical, but demethylation of aCh should not have such dramatic side-effects.

 

Perhaps it could be a possible avenue of treatment for you, if you truly do have increased aCh?

 

Aberrant DNA Methylation of rDNA and PRIMA1 in Borderline Personality Disorder

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4730312/

 

PRIMA1 functions by organizing acetylcholinesterase into tetramers, and by anchoring these tetramers at neural cell membranes [30,31]. Increased methylation of PRIMA1 results in decreased enzyme function and increased cholinergic transmission, consistent with a role of the cholinergic circuit in different psychiatric disorders [14,32]. In BPD, the activation of the cholinergic system in peripheral blood cells of patients has been reported [33].

 

 

 

And the best way of testing if it is too high aCh is to simply order some CDP-choline and shugging it down - it's got the best bio-availability, and if it makes you feel quite bad, quite fast, then you know it's too high.

 

To counter feeling TOO gosh-darn miserable, if it works, is to take some Benadryl, aka Diphenhydramine - it's got multiple potent bindings for Muscarinic Acetylcholine.

 

Diphenhydramine binding-profile

http://www.scbt.com/...eet-278993.html


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#4 Jordan23

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 02:59 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I have two questions before starting on any experiments - 

1. I haven't been on any fish oil for 3 - 3.5 weeks now, I wonder if it could still have such a negative effect on me for this long?

which leads into my next question,

2. If it were too much acetylcholine as a result of choline in the fish oil, would the acetylcholine levels go down back to normal over time.

Also don't know if this is at all interesting but i've noticed that I feel much much worse upon immediately waking from a REM cycle sleep such as a nap in the day, as opposed to waking up from a from a more deep sleep cycle in the night.

Apologies also i'm not very well versed in chemistry and neurology, my areas of interest are in other fields :cool:  


Edited by Jordan23, 19 July 2016 - 02:59 AM.


#5 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 19 July 2016 - 06:17 PM

1. I honestly have no idea - but perhaps it was interpreted by your brain as a trauma? As such, it would make sense if you still feel a bit bad because of it.

 

2. I don't think the Omega-3 in itself would have this effect - I'd say it's because you have a naturally high production of Acetylcholine, and the problem only occurs when you super-charge it. I've taken some pretty high doses of Omega-3 myself and never felt any of what you describe. However...! A mild Nicotinic antagonist, Bupropion, caused clear symptoms of low aCh upon higher dosages - that implies that I may have low aCh - I got really sh*tty verbal memory on Wellbutrin - but the vast majority does not - or if they do, it's only a slight decrease in cognitive function.

 

Likewise, a smashin' young lady I know, who suffer from Borderline PD, does not experience anything of the sort, even at the same high dose - she even says it makes her ever so slightly more stable! If BPD is truly related to runamuck aCh and faulty Nicotinic receptors, then this makes a lot of sense.

Just some comparisons I'm throwing out there, to illustrate my thoughts.

 

It would be HIGHLY intriguing to see what your response to Diphenhydramine was - after a high dose of Omega-3's - I can understand why that doesn't seem like an enticing experiment though, hrrrm!

 

 

Tell you what though - in theory, low-dose Diphenhydramine should enhance some of your cognitive abilities, or mood, if you truly have excess aCh - and on low doses, I believe you will only feel the aCh-antagonism of Diphenhydramine - no sedation and such. What do you think about buying some Benadryl, taking a quarter, to a third of a pill, and then reporting back?

How interesting if that has an effect...

 

 

You can find various brand-names for Diphenhydramine here:

 

http://www.medindia....combination.htm


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#6 Jordan23

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 03:57 AM

Hmmm, I have looked up I can't seem to find any products with diphenhydramine in Australia, benadryl for instance has different active ingredients here. 



#7 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 07:14 AM

Well, it doesn't seem to be illegal to import at least, it doesn't have an entry on the TGA'S website on illegal goods.

https://www.tga.gov....ems_per_page=10


And the TGA has it in several approved formulations! :)

True, there's a lot of annoying combinations, but there's supposed to be pure formulas too.

tga-search.clients.funnelback.com/s/search.html?collection=tga-artg&profile=record&meta_i=129483

tga-search.clients.funnelback.com/s/search.html?collection=tga-artg&profile=record&meta_i=161313

So, it should be legal for you to at least buy it online and have it shipped. If you have allergies or sleeping-problems you could even have it prescribed.

The NPS-medicinwise service also revealed two definitively available brands, with clear info.


www.nps.org.au/medicines/brain-and-nervous-system/sedatives-and-medicines-for-sleep-problems/diphenhydramine-hydrochloride-sedatives-and-medicines-for-sleep-problems

Unisom Sleep Gels is available on Pharmacy online, recommended via the Aussie Benadryl official site.

www.pharmacyonline.com.au/unisom-sleep-gels-50mg-cap-x-10?icn=SLI-Search&ici=Unisom%20Sleep%20Gels%2050mg%20Cap%20X%2010%20(Diphenhydramine)


It's perscription though... but you should be able to find it somewhere, because apparently others have reported it available OTC in Aus, back in 2012.
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#8 Jordan23

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 01:27 PM

Thabks so much for your replies and helpful info, just want you to know it's greatly appreciated.

I've decided I'm gonna go ahead and experiment with CDP choline and see if it makes a notable difference in my mood. To be safe I'll also order the sleep gels containing the diphenhydramine to counteract it if need be.

Based on price I figured I'd just go with these two combo's

For the CDP choline

http://au.m.iherb.co...60-Capsules/112

And for the diphenhydramine

http://m.ebay.com.au...4143?nav=SEARCH

Just wondering if these are ok and what dosages I should take of each to get any valid effects from them.
Also for control purposes is there anything in particular I should do to make sure the results aren't skewed? Should I only take the choline when I'm feeling up? Or do it before a mood enhancing activity eg excersise to make sure it isn't just a poor environment causing the potentially lessened mood?

Thanks greatly again.

#9 Jordan23

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 12:42 PM

Update:

I have ordered both products. I am going to start with the Unisom (50mg diphenhydramine) sleep gels and actually take them before bed for 1 week to see if it improves my sleep and sleep cycles, and potentially mood.

I will at some point take the CDP choline to see if it negatively affects my mood. Perhaps I will do some sort of blind study where I will have someone give me a placebo pill 6 out of 7 days, and 1 choline pill in that week at random. 


Edited by Jordan23, 21 July 2016 - 12:43 PM.


#10 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 07:49 PM

Remember to start low on Diphenhydramine - it's too bad these are gel-caps actually - if they were just regular pills you could take them apart and use 25 mg instead.

Remember, Diphenhydramine is actually MORE selective for anticholinergic than anti-histamine properties - that's why so many people get hangovers from them. The idea is to keep you away from the antihistamine sleep-inducing effect, and only use a moderate anticholinergic effect. I don't believe you would have to antagonize that much - a slightly more active cholinergic system is beneficial, it's just when it gets past a certain threshold that you experience these unpleasant effects and feelings.



#11 Jordan23

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 01:05 AM

Do you think 1 x 50mg gel cap before bed is too much? I was interested to see how it affects my sleep. It's currenty very disturbed and highly frequently in REM.

#12 Jordan23

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 02:02 PM

Ok update on the update:

I have ordered an additional 25mg diphenhydramine HCI tablets (Benadryl) from the States.

I'm thinking of starting small perhaps half a tab (12.5mg) in the morning and seeing how that helps over a week? I'm wondering if it's worth taking the sleep gels before bed (50mg). Seeing as I'm sleeping anyway sedation should be an issue.

Really have no idea here on dosages just spitballing. Also would like to know about potential CDP-Choline dosages too to test its negative effects. I mean I don't wanna get suicidal here just enough to see if it's the cause.

Unfortunately will have to wait some time for the items to arrive zzzzzzzz

#13 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 06:56 PM

I honestly don't know - it all depends on if, and how much, your acetylcholine-levels are enhanced. The reason I think you should start low is because Diphenhydramine has a fairly long half-life, somewhere around 18 hours at least - so if you take it in the evening, you will still feel it in the morning, for sure. (of course, if you truly have really high choline, then the effect upon wakening could be life-changing - just the right amount of anti-cholinergic effect...)

 

A simple solution if you feel tired or cognitively impaired in the morning, is to simply pop a small, small amount of CDP-choline. I believe those are in regular pills, yes? So that can be portioned much easier.

 


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 22 July 2016 - 06:59 PM.


#14 Leloux

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 06:25 AM

Can it be possibly due to increased oxidative stress? I was taking high dosages like you, and it caused me react badly. I feel better in low dosages. 


Edited by Leloux, 25 July 2016 - 06:26 AM.


#15 Jordan23

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 08:34 AM

I suppose its possible, how would I know if its that though?

One main thing that leads me to believe its acetylcholine is the more vivid dreaming. I was dreaming more frequently leading up to the depressive episode, as well as now. Acetylcholine is known to be involved in triggering REM sleep and in higher abundance would lead to more frequent dreaming and recollection of dreams.

A lot of mainstream psychology believes that increased dreaming is a symptom of the depression due to more rumination in the day. But I haven't noticed any difference in how often I ruminate vs how much I dream, and personally it seems like a bit of a Freudian theory to me. 

I guess i'll have to wait until the products arrive and some time to test them to see what happens. I have been very slowly improving with each week though, without any talk therapy or exercise whatsoever. 



#16 permhealing

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 12:55 PM

I suppose its possible, how would I know if its that though?

One main thing that leads me to believe its acetylcholine is the more vivid dreaming. I was dreaming more frequently leading up to the depressive episode, as well as now. Acetylcholine is known to be involved in triggering REM sleep and in higher abundance would lead to more frequent dreaming and recollection of dreams.

A lot of mainstream psychology believes that increased dreaming is a symptom of the depression due to more rumination in the day. But I haven't noticed any difference in how often I ruminate vs how much I dream, and personally it seems like a bit of a Freudian theory to me. 

I guess i'll have to wait until the products arrive and some time to test them to see what happens. I have been very slowly improving with each week though, without any talk therapy or exercise whatsoever. 

 

I would split the CDP choline capsule into a smaller portion if you were to try it.

 

When I tried it I got an initial high and then deep depression from it.  It is much more depressive than alpha gpc or choline.  If you wanted to test alpha gpc or choline would be less risky.



#17 Jordan23

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:19 PM

Now that I've been steadily improving I'm not sure if I'm game to test it.

I might go with low dose diphenhydramine though to speed up my recovery.

I suppose if I relapse again I could test the choline to see its effects, but without any supplementation a relapse might indicate that it isn't an issue about acetylcholine.

#18 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 06:10 PM

I would agree that a relapse would indicate something other than abnormal choline-production.

Have you done anything in perticular to help yourself recover btw? Or has time simply made it better?

I'm still truly curious what low-dose Diphenhydramine would do to your symptoms though... Could you give it a try in the evening perhaps? To see if it improves sleep-quality, if you dream less.

#19 Jordan23

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 05:53 AM

I've done nothing but stay in my room the last week by myself. No excersise, very poor diet, poor sleep schedule, so no I really haven't done anything at all.

Blurred vision is supposedly a symptom of high acetylcholine and I have noticed an improvement in my eyesight. It only became blurry in the week that this depressive episode began. I can't even wear the glasses that I bought for it a few weeks ago without now getting a headache. I could barely read without them a few weeks ago.

Yeah I'm just gonna go with 12.5mg of diph before bed for a little while and see what happens.

#20 Jordan23

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 06:56 AM

Update:

So I've kinda realized that I was barely improving beyond a certain point in terms of depression. Its certainly far better than where I was at the beginning of this episode however. Anyway I think i've noticed that my depression seems to fluctuate between low dopamine and low serotonin, but rarely ever both at the same time. 

At times I seem to be anhedonic, have low motivation, feel lethargic, and I do not want to leave the bed in the morning. - a simple test when I feel this way is I have a coffee and I feel much better, possibly indicating low dopamine. 

And at other times I feel slightly anxious, loneliness and sadness, a general feeling that things aren't quite right, and almost obsessive thoughts about how I feel. This period feels like low serotonin. - If I have a coffee at this time I feel no difference whatsoever. Sometimes I can be very motivated whilst in this state but still feel like shit.

I do wonder where norepinephrine fits into all this, so far I don't know what the symptoms are for it. 

Other symptoms i've noticed are:

*blurred vision - this seems to change a lot, where sometimes I will need to wear my glasses to read the computer screen, and other times the glasses will make 0 difference because my vision is fine.
*trembling/shaking hands - this changes as well doesn't happen all the time and i've only noticed it semi-recently.

*weird shooting nerve pain in my arms and legs.

*lethargic - just want to sleep or lay down a lot, especially in the morning.

Anyway I started taking DPH at just 6.25mg (roughly) which is just a quarter of a pill at night, before bed. Even after the first night I noticed changes in my sleep. My sleep is a lot more like when I was on Lexapro. I seem to wake up a lot more in the night, and spend more time awake than normal. However I definitely dream a lot less. When I took a nap in the day I didn't dream at all and it was like I was semi-awake but asleep. So far I haven't noticed feeling any less tired in the day however.

Besides that I think it is somewhat promising. I felt pretty good after the second day of being on it. Its definitely boosting my serotonin, which might be the anticholinergic effects but also because it is apparently a very mild SRI. Though at such a very low dose I wonder how this could be possible. It hasn't really been boosting my dopamine yet however, and I saw a comment online mentioning that old antihistamines like DPH are actually anti-dopaminergic. I couldn't find any info on this I wonder if anyone knows if this is true?

Unfortunately the DPH comes with some pretty unbearable side effects. It makes me very nauseous mostly in the morning, and my appetite is very suppressed all day. Worst of all it makes me feel very dizzy/headaches, to the point where I cannot be in a car without feeling terrible motion sickness. It seems strange that just 6.25 mg can have such an effect on me. I wonder what the mechanism for causing nauseousness/headaches/dizziness is. I want to keep trying the DPH and hope the side effects dissipate but right now the headaches are pretty insufferable. 

I think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and chug down some CDP-choline to see how it affects me. I really didn't want to have to but it seems that it will be the only way to confirm my aCH hypothesis.



#21 Jordan23

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 06:57 AM

Update:

So I've kinda realized that I was barely improving beyond a certain point in terms of depression. Its certainly far better than where I was at the beginning of this episode however. Anyway I think i've noticed that my depression seems to fluctuate between low dopamine and low serotonin, but rarely ever both at the same time. 

At times I seem to be anhedonic, have low motivation, feel lethargic, and I do not want to leave the bed in the morning. - a simple test when I feel this way is I have a coffee and I feel much better, possibly indicating low dopamine. 

And at other times I feel slightly anxious, loneliness and sadness, a general feeling that things aren't quite right, and almost obsessive thoughts about how I feel. This period feels like low serotonin. - If I have a coffee at this time I feel no difference whatsoever. Sometimes I can be very motivated whilst in this state but still feel like shit.

I do wonder where norepinephrine fits into all this, so far I don't know what the symptoms are for it. 

Other symptoms i've noticed are:

*blurred vision - this seems to change a lot, where sometimes I will need to wear my glasses to read the computer screen, and other times the glasses will make 0 difference because my vision is fine.
*trembling/shaking hands - this changes as well doesn't happen all the time and i've only noticed it semi-recently.

*weird shooting nerve pain in my arms and legs.

*lethargic - just want to sleep or lay down a lot, especially in the morning.

Anyway I started taking DPH at just 6.25mg (roughly) which is just a quarter of a pill at night, before bed. Even after the first night I noticed changes in my sleep. My sleep is a lot more like when I was on Lexapro. I seem to wake up a lot more in the night, and spend more time awake than normal. However I definitely dream a lot less. When I took a nap in the day I didn't dream at all and it was like I was semi-awake but asleep. So far I haven't noticed feeling any less tired in the day however.

Besides that I think it is somewhat promising. I felt pretty good after the second day of being on it. Its definitely boosting my serotonin, which might be the anticholinergic effects but also because it is apparently a very mild SRI. Though at such a very low dose I wonder how this could be possible. It hasn't really been boosting my dopamine yet however, and I saw a comment online mentioning that old antihistamines like DPH are actually anti-dopaminergic. I couldn't find any info on this I wonder if anyone knows if this is true?

Unfortunately the DPH comes with some pretty unbearable side effects. It makes me very nauseous mostly in the morning, and my appetite is very suppressed all day. Worst of all it makes me feel very dizzy/headaches, to the point where I cannot be in a car without feeling terrible motion sickness. It seems strange that just 6.25 mg can have such an effect on me. I wonder what the mechanism for causing nauseousness/headaches/dizziness is. I want to keep trying the DPH and hope the side effects dissipate but right now the headaches are pretty insufferable. 

I think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and chug down some CDP-choline to see how it affects me. I really didn't want to have to but it seems that it will be the only way to confirm my aCH hypothesis.



#22 Jordan23

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 06:56 AM

Update:

So I've kinda realized that I was barely improving beyond a certain point in terms of depression. Its certainly far better than where I was at the beginning of this episode however. Anyway I think i've noticed that my depression seems to fluctuate between low dopamine and low serotonin, but rarely ever both at the same time. 

At times I seem to be anhedonic, have low motivation, feel lethargic, and I do not want to leave the bed in the morning. - a simple test when I feel this way is I have a coffee and I feel much better, possibly indicating low dopamine. 

And at other times I feel slightly anxious, loneliness and sadness, a general feeling that things aren't quite right, and almost obsessive thoughts about how I feel. This period feels like low serotonin. - If I have a coffee at this time I feel no difference whatsoever. Sometimes I can be very motivated whilst in this state but still feel like shit.

I do wonder where norepinephrine fits into all this, so far I don't know what the symptoms are for it. 

Other symptoms i've noticed are:

*blurred vision - this seems to change a lot, where sometimes I will need to wear my glasses to read the computer screen, and other times the glasses will make 0 difference because my vision is fine.
*trembling/shaking hands - this changes as well doesn't happen all the time and i've only noticed it semi-recently.

*weird shooting nerve pain in my arms and legs.

*lethargic - just want to sleep or lay down a lot, especially in the morning.

Anyway I started taking DPH at just 6.25mg (roughly) which is just a quarter of a pill at night, before bed. Even after the first night I noticed changes in my sleep. My sleep is a lot more like when I was on Lexapro. I seem to wake up a lot more in the night, and spend more time awake than normal. However I definitely dream a lot less. When I took a nap in the day I didn't dream at all and it was like I was semi-awake but asleep. So far I haven't noticed feeling any less tired in the day however.

Besides that I think it is somewhat promising. I felt pretty good after the second day of being on it. Its definitely boosting my serotonin, which might be the anticholinergic effects but also because it is apparently a very mild SRI. Though at such a very low dose I wonder how this could be possible. It hasn't really been boosting my dopamine yet however, and I saw a comment online mentioning that old antihistamines like DPH are actually anti-dopaminergic. I couldn't find any info on this I wonder if anyone knows if this is true?

Unfortunatly the DPH comes with some pretty unbearable side effects. It makes me very nauseous mostly in the morning, and my appetite is very suppressed all day. Worst of all it makes me feel very dizzy/headaches, to the point where I cannot be in a car without feeling terrible motion sickness. It seems strange that just 6.25 mg can have such an effect on me. I wonder what the mechanism for causing nauseousness/headaches/dizziness is. I want to keep trying the DPH and hope the side effects dissipate but right now the headaches are pretty insufferable. 

I think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and chug down some CDP-choline to see how it affects me. I really didn't want to have to but it seems that it will be the only way to confirm my aCH hypothesis.



#23 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 07:46 AM

Interesting that Diphenhydramine does seem to be affecting you, but that the side-effects are this severe - even at low doses! You should be having minimal sedation from the antihistaminergic effect - and if you truly have high choline, it shouldn't be doing it either...

Hmm.

 

If you buy some Piracetam with that CDP-choline, and with your DPH, then you should have nothing to worry about! = ) Just keep it handy when you do your stress-test, so to speak. It'll clear any acute symptoms pretty quick.

 

Other then that though, it almost sounds as if you have some kind of auto-immune disorder... A bit like... Fibromyalgia? (which may actually, primarily, be a nervous-system disorder)

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Fibromyalgia

 

What makes me think that, is mainly the fatigue and the new pain-sensations you are experiencing.



#24 Jordan23

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 08:43 AM

I don't think the DPH is sedating me, I've been feeling lethargic all the time prior to taking it.

The fibromyalgia theory is interesting although I don't suffer from chronic widespread pain. I don't want to overstate the nerve pains either, they're very mild, infrequent and usually in the same few places. I just thought they might be relevant.

I agree the effect from the very low dose DPH is interesting. I will probably have to stop it now. Thing is I've always been susceptible to headaches (like bad hangovers) and motion sickness (on lots of rides, and sharp turns in vehicles) but this has just amplified it immensely.

#25 Jordan23

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 06:42 AM

Okay I didn't take the DPH last night. I feel very anhedonic today, along with serious lack of motivation and lethargy. It seems to be definitely a lack of dopamine, a small coffee gave me a minor boost very temporarily followed by a low. I find it very strange that my depression seems to fluctuate between the different types.

 


Edited by Jordan23, 07 August 2016 - 06:50 AM.


#26 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 09:09 AM

The fact that you feel MORE tired on the days when you don't take DPH is certainly evidence of something peculiar in your cholinergic system.

Bite the bullet man... try Piracetam. It does have effects even on regular users which I would say sounds beneficial to you. (In perticular the upregulation of BDNF)

#27 Jordan23

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 11:01 AM

I'm going to try some CDP-Choline, what dose? each capsule is 25mg. I'll have the benadryl on hand in case things get bad.

I don't understand what the purpose of using piracetam is? Should I get that for the choline test? And what is BDNF and how would it apply to me?

 



#28 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 11:58 AM

My apologies - I did not explain my reasoning to any great extent.

You don't need Piracetam for the choline-test, but if the test makes you feel bad, then it's a very useful tool to buy next.
Piracetam increases the signaling of Cholinergic neurons (brain-cells), improving memory and other aspects of cognition.
It does so by causing a drastic lowering of global choline-levels though, so you actually get lower overall choline when it wears off.

Another reason I mention it is because while researching better treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder, I have noted that they have naturally enhanced choline-levels (a bit like how schizophrenics have increased dopamine) and there are reports that Piracetam, which affects the cholinergic system, improves Borderline stability.

And finally - BDNF = Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor - a naturally occurring compound in the brain, which causes growth of latent stem-cells in the brain, resulting in new brain-cells. The most recent hypothesis regarding how antidepressants work is by causing an increase in BDNF (through a feedback-loop) which allows the brain to repair the damage from depression. (Depression is like a severe inflammatory state - almost like alzheimers, and actually damages neurons, causing a loss in brain-volume.)
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#29 Jordan23

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 01:48 PM

So I've done a bit of research on piracetam and I'm somewhat confused.

I've read in some places that piracetam increases acetylcholine, and elsewhere that it depletes it. From what I could gather and correct me if I'm wrong is that piracetam works like caffeine does for dopamine. In that it releases more acetylcholine without creating anymore. So afterwards your left with depleted acetylcholine levels. Much like how caffeine induces dopamine to be released but fails to create more in replacement thus lowering dopamine afterwards.

Is this right? I understand it's a very crude way of putting it.

If so wouldn't that mean that piracetam would make me feel terrible whilst on it.

Edited by Jordan23, 07 August 2016 - 01:50 PM.


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#30 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 11:32 PM

Well... you might be right there. However, BPD-ers who have pathologic aCh-levels report it as calming - which is certainly interesting.

You were right to double-check my ramblings though - proceed with caution.
I think there's potential there though, so just use a low dose, 200 mg as a start perhaps (hardly anyone feels anything at that dose) and keep your DPH handy.

Try it after you've done your A-GPC test though.





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