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Natural Anti Choline / Acetylcholine supplements

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#1 permhealing

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 12:58 PM


Would anyone know of any natural anti choline/acetylcholine supplements that decrease choline levels in the body apart from the racetams?

 

I supplemented choline/gpc for many months since mid last year and now I have way too much in my body - insomnia, strong frequent dreams, hungry, mood down.

 

I know there are anti choline drugs, but I read they work more on the acetylcholine receptors rather than depleting choline levels/amounts.



#2 Jordan23

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:28 AM

Would greatly appreciate info on this aswell.

 



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#3 Jordan23

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:47 AM

That looks like a test booster/estrogen blocker? it doesn't mention anything about anticholingernic properties? 



#4 thedevinroy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 10:35 AM

Technically serotonergic and dopaminergic systems have an acetylcholine lowering effect or raising effect, depending on the area of the brain. Where do you need less activity?

Edited by devinthayer, 25 July 2016 - 10:36 AM.


#5 permhealing

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 11:50 AM

Technically serotonergic and dopaminergic systems have an acetylcholine lowering effect or raising effect, depending on the area of the brain. Where do you need less activity?

 

I don't know which area as I am not that technical about brain areas.

 

But I do know that after taking GPC and choline it has brought about insomnia and strong dreams, which I would like to correct.

 

When the choline levels were at their peak a few weeks ago, I would get strong stress responses really easily.  Even things like loud music in an arcade gaming place would trigger heart palpitations.


Edited by permhealing, 25 July 2016 - 12:08 PM.


#6 thedevinroy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 11:59 AM

GPC is strong stuff. You might get a better balance of just watching your omega 3/6 ratios. That also increases choline uptake but not so aggressively.

Anyway, it does seem like you may have more muscarinic activity than nicotinic activity. Diphenhydramine is an over the counter solution, and since you will continue to take cholinergics it seems, you won't have nearly as much long term side effects... Maybe? Not been proven, but that's my theory.

I know very intelligent people almost addicted to diphenhydramine (Advil PM) that seem to do fine during the day. I take it and you have to peel me off the sheets the next morning - groggy till noon. Since it can come in syrup, you can find your happy dose without breaking pills.

Edited by devinthayer, 25 July 2016 - 12:03 PM.

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#7 permhealing

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 12:58 PM

GPC is strong stuff. You might get a better balance of just watching your omega 3/6 ratios. That also increases choline uptake but not so aggressively.

Anyway, it does seem like you may have more muscarinic activity than nicotinic activity. Diphenhydramine is an over the counter solution, and since you will continue to take cholinergics it seems, you won't have nearly as much long term side effects... Maybe? Not been proven, but that's my theory.

I know very intelligent people almost addicted to diphenhydramine (Advil PM) that seem to do fine during the day. I take it and you have to peel me off the sheets the next morning - groggy till noon. Since it can come in syrup, you can find your happy dose without breaking pills.

 

Could you tell me the difference btw muscarinic and nicotinic effects?

 

I have actually been taking diphenhydramine nearly every night to help with sleep.

I have stopped taking cholinergics for 3-4 weeks except once last week to test its effects, and it gave me anxiety afterwards.  I will continue to stop taking cholinergics.

 

As it is an acetylcholine receptor antagonist, just blocking the receptor does not mean that it actually reduces choline levels, but just prevents choline from binding to the receptor?

 

And if I increase choline uptake, that means I am using choline up?  And by using it up I would also be increasing choline's effects too?



#8 Jordan23

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 01:55 PM

Your story sounds similar to mine. I think I have an acetylcholine induced depression/anxiety with the whole dreaming and sleeping issues too. Mine I think was from taking to much fish oil over a long period of time.

I noticed that I have been improving slowly in my own without taking any action but was planning on taking diphenhydramine for a few weeks to see its effects. Can I ask what dosage diphenhydramine your on? And have you noticed any improvement at all?

I wonder if it's a viable solution or if after stopping the diphenhydramine the problems would return.

#9 thedevinroy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 03:39 PM

Increasing choline uptake just means you are moving extracellular ACh to inside the cell. One way to do that is via muscarinic receptors. Sure you could have adverse effects to antagonists if the metabolism of ACh is screwed up... in which case inducing AChE or increasing its activity would be more beneficial.


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If you want to know the difference then look up the effects from muscarine and nicotine.


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#10 permhealing

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 12:43 PM

Your story sounds similar to mine. I think I have an acetylcholine induced depression/anxiety with the whole dreaming and sleeping issues too. Mine I think was from taking to much fish oil over a long period of time.

I noticed that I have been improving slowly in my own without taking any action but was planning on taking diphenhydramine for a few weeks to see its effects. Can I ask what dosage diphenhydramine your on? And have you noticed any improvement at all?

I wonder if it's a viable solution or if after stopping the diphenhydramine the problems would return.

 

I have a few years ago taken fish oil for quite a long while but didn't notice much cognitive improvement or choline effects.  Even at very high doses of nearly 20 capsules a day.  Sam-e really gave me cognitive boost but also anxiety.

 

I have 50mg tablets and usually take a quarter.  When at worst even one tablet wouldn't let me sleep.  Just by stopping the choline for some time has helped from its peak or very worst.  But now after 3-4 weeks stopping, I am still moderately severe, just not severe.  I am hoping to get to normal choline levels but its not happening as easily as I thought.  diph does help but I don't know if it is just symptomatic or long term.  I take it before bed or 4-5am, and these days would get some choline symptoms around dinner time when the diph has worn out.

 

If you're struggling with sleep then you should try it, even for a few days.

 

I have read that alcohol and forskolin might help but not sure if it would bring about other problems.



#11 thedevinroy

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 01:19 PM

I was going to mention CILTEP tends to make people sleepy, so they added ALCAR. Forskolin I guess is probably the culprit, but luteolin also is a reputake enhancer, so that might add to it, too. Not that their particular blend is actually high in luteolin...


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#12 Jordan23

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 01:28 PM

I'd say it has been 5 weeks since stopping the fish and am only now starting to see myself normalise. Sleep is still slightly disturbed with frequent dreaming but has definitely started to improve.

Perhaps you should just hang in there. Theoretically it should subside with time I suppose it just depends how severely cholingernic of a state you are in.

I was pretty terrible at my worst, frequently crying for no reason, incredibly lethargic, zero motivation, anxiety in the mornings, severe anhedonia etc.

#13 permhealing

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:12 AM

I'd say it has been 5 weeks since stopping the fish and am only now starting to see myself normalise. Sleep is still slightly disturbed with frequent dreaming but has definitely started to improve.

Perhaps you should just hang in there. Theoretically it should subside with time I suppose it just depends how severely cholingernic of a state you are in.

I was pretty terrible at my worst, frequently crying for no reason, incredibly lethargic, zero motivation, anxiety in the mornings, severe anhedonia etc.

 

Thanks I know that by hanging in there things should get better but weeks can seem so long when symptoms are troubling and I need to perform.

 

I really want to try some dopamine supplements to see if it counters choline but don't wanna run the risk of triggering more problems as my body now is prob not stable.

 

My cognition is worse after diph for many days so ill have to stop it for a few days and use something else.



#14 Jordan23

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:18 AM

So the diphenhydramine hasn't helped? how many milligrams was it?



#15 permhealing

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:01 AM

So the diphenhydramine hasn't helped? how many milligrams was it?

 

Well in some ways it helps, with sleep, but not to the point where I can sleep 8 hours without any problems.

 

I take 12-25 per night, sometimes before sleep, sometimes only if i wake up mid sleep.

 

problem is the side effects.  it decreases my cognition more than it decreases my dreaming, rem sleep, so its kinda not worth it long term.

 

really thinking of dopamine to balance choline out.



#16 jack black

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 02:09 PM

As devinthayer pointed out in this thread: http://www.longecity...e-it-sparingly/

DMAE blocks choline transport and ACh production.

My experience with DMAE indicates it works rapidly and effectively: http://www.longecity...ad/#entry784360

Some argue that too much ACh causes depression: https://bbrfoundatio...-narsad-grantee

I seem to have that condition (amoung many others).


Edited by jack black, 31 July 2016 - 02:14 PM.


#17 permhealing

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 03:26 AM

GPC is strong stuff. You might get a better balance of just watching your omega 3/6 ratios. That also increases choline uptake but not so aggressively.

Anyway, it does seem like you may have more muscarinic activity than nicotinic activity. Diphenhydramine is an over the counter solution, and since you will continue to take cholinergics it seems, you won't have nearly as much long term side effects... Maybe? Not been proven, but that's my theory.

I know very intelligent people almost addicted to diphenhydramine (Advil PM) that seem to do fine during the day. I take it and you have to peel me off the sheets the next morning - groggy till noon. Since it can come in syrup, you can find your happy dose without breaking pills.

 

Would nicotinic or muscarinic receptors be responsible for dreaming?

as I couldn't find much on this by searching



#18 Jordan23

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 04:25 AM

Also I was under the impression that DMAE is a precursor to acetylcholine, thus increasing it?



#19 jack black

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:43 PM

Also I was under the impression that DMAE is a precursor to acetylcholine, thus increasing it?

 

That's incorrect (and a common myth). Read devinthayer's post that i linked in my previous post.  While he concentrated on Phosphocholine, Phosphatidylcholine, and Sphingomyelin, and omitted ACh, he provided links that showed good evidence on DMAE decreasing ACh.  Also, Piracetam decreases ACh. I can feel it myself and it's beneficial in high ACh states. Now, for people with low ACh it's not beneficial and they have to supplement piracetam with choline.

 

Now, I just discovered that people who are very sensitive to ACh causing depression, they tend to have borderline personality disorder, in case you are interested.


Edited by jack black, 01 August 2016 - 06:46 PM.


#20 Jordan23

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 11:20 PM

From what I understood DMAE blocks choline from getting through the BBB it doesn't do anything to acetylcholine levels already in the brain.

That's interesting about the BPD, where did you read that? I certainly don't have it though we also have to realise that everyone is going to have a threshold where too much ACh is going to cause problems. It took me like 4-5 months of supplementation to get where I am (if I'm right).

#21 Kabb

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Posted 02 August 2016 - 05:51 PM

Wouldn't any excess choline, if that is really what you have, wash out relatively quickly?

 

I guess you could use any of the known anticholinergic drugs in order to lower choline.  However it may be hard to get the balance right and these meds are usually avoided in people with poor cognitive ability (such as the elderly or those with dementia) because these meds can easily make their mental state worse. http://www.virginiag...s/medsList.html

 

The effect of lowering choline too much would be to put you into a state of some confusion and I would be inclined to avoid that.

 

 



#22 jack black

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Posted 02 August 2016 - 06:30 PM

From what I understood DMAE blocks choline from getting through the BBB it doesn't do anything to acetylcholine levels already in the brain.

That's interesting about the BPD, where did you read that? I certainly don't have it though we also have to realise that everyone is going to have a threshold where too much ACh is going to cause problems. It took me like 4-5 months of supplementation to get where I am (if I'm right).

 

Less choline in brain = less acetylcholine in brain.

That part is easy. The second part is DMAE is choline precursor and goes through BBB easily. 

This is why there is so much confusion about DMAE vs ACh. It varies depending on doses and enzyme activities, it may decrease or increase ACh in different experiments. In small doses it seems to decrease ACh for me. YMMV.

 

Here is info on ACh vs BPD: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9326751
 


Edited by jack black, 02 August 2016 - 06:31 PM.


#23 permhealing

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 03:09 AM

Would anyone know of any nicotinic receptor antagonists as the bendaryl I have been taking only acts on muscarinic receptors?



#24 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 04:17 PM

OP: I recommend Piracetam as well. In low doses it's one of the safest drugs there is.

 

 

Now, I just discovered that people who are very sensitive to ACh causing depression, they tend to have borderline personality disorder, in case you are interested.

 

 

Really now...? *rubs hands together like Gargamel*

 

Do you have a reference-link? You know why I'm interested.

 

This certainly gives even more hearsay evidence as to why Bupropion is effective - it both antagonises aCh-receptors directly, as well as through increased dopaminergic activity.

 

Would anyone know of any nicotinic receptor antagonists as the bendaryl I have been taking only acts on muscarinic receptors?

 

Yes.

 

Bupropion (wellbutrin, voxra) is not only an NDRI, but also a nicotinic antagonist.
It's actually used as a smoking-cessation aid, because of this.
 

With Bupropion in the morning, you will promote awakeness, while with Benadryl in the evening, promoting sleep-quality.


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 03 August 2016 - 04:19 PM.


#25 jack black

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:02 PM

Would anyone know of any nicotinic receptor antagonists as the bendaryl I have been taking only acts on muscarinic receptors?

 

http://www.longecity...er/#entry783027

 

 

Do you have a reference-link? You know why I'm interested.

 

 

yap,

http://www.longecity...ts/#entry784630



#26 permhealing

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 11:19 AM

OP: I recommend Piracetam as well. In low doses it's one of the safest drugs there is.

 

 

Now, I just discovered that people who are very sensitive to ACh causing depression, they tend to have borderline personality disorder, in case you are interested.

 

 

Really now...? *rubs hands together like Gargamel*

 

Do you have a reference-link? You know why I'm interested.

 

This certainly gives even more hearsay evidence as to why Bupropion is effective - it both antagonises aCh-receptors directly, as well as through increased dopaminergic activity.

 

Would anyone know of any nicotinic receptor antagonists as the bendaryl I have been taking only acts on muscarinic receptors?

 

Yes.

 

Bupropion (wellbutrin, voxra) is not only an NDRI, but also a nicotinic antagonist.
It's actually used as a smoking-cessation aid, because of this.
 

With Bupropion in the morning, you will promote awakeness, while with Benadryl in the evening, promoting sleep-quality.

 

 

As Bupropion also increases Norepinephrine, should I be worried it might cause or worsen anxiety?

I do have ear muscle tension mostly, and sometimes anxiety.



#27 permhealing

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 10:40 PM

Would there be any agents that antagonize both muscarinic and nicotinic receptors? 

As most of the antihistamines only act on muscarinic

 

Sleep has been better last week, but whenever something stressful comes, the stress response activates the acetycholine or parasympathetic system, leading to high choline symptoms such as poor sleep and strong dreams.



#28 thedevinroy

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 10:50 AM

Stress can elevate levels of norepinephrine which releases acetylcholine via the Alpha-1 adrenergic and D2 dopaminergic receptors. Whoever said that dopamine lowers acetylcholine is not taking the whole brain into account. Both affect each other in different ways.

As to whether or not muscarinic or nicotinic receptors affect dreams more, it is generally believed that nicotinic receptors are more responsible, especially the Alpha7 subtype.

Finally, DMAE increases choline metabolism and excretion in the blood for sure, but it does not have that effect on the brain. In the brain, it elevates free choline levels with no effect on ACh, and if any of you are big fans of ALCAR, you know that generally speaking ACh conversion is not usually rate limited by choline, but often it is acetyl donors like ALCAR or total enzyme levels in general.

Edited by devinthayer, 15 August 2016 - 10:51 AM.

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#29 Keizo

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:17 PM

For short-term use I have found that Tyrosine reduces my "high acetylcholine" symptoms (temporarily caused by tobacco  consumption). E.g. it relaxes my (neck) muscles, removes headache, etc.



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#30 Jordan23

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 03:12 AM

Yes Tyrosine probably increases acetylcholinesterase, it does so in rats.

http://www.sciencedi...197018612003026

That and the fact that its a dopamine precursor thus potentially combating high Ach with elevated dopamine levels. But I seriously wouldn't try it without tryptophan or 5htp. I did and I felt good for 1-2 days before feeling incredibly agitated and anxious. Without some serotonin boosting activity once the dopamine is converted too NE it is left to run amok with nothing to keep it in check. I have been feeling terrible whith high anxiety the last week since then as well which lends to what devinthayer was saying about increased NE releasing Ach. 

Its quite a doozy.

Perma i've come to the conclusion that the only way too speed up this process is to boost serotonin and dopamine levels together to combat high Ach. I reckon the following might be beneficial.

1. Tryptophan and Tyrosine (probably want a higher trypophan to tyro ratio).
2. An SSRI and Tyrosine (both supposedly have acetylcholinesterase boosting activity)
3. Wellbutrin and Tryptophan (Wellbutrin might be good cause it antagonises the a7 nicotinic receptor)
or 
4. An SSRI and Wellbutrin 
 


Edited by Jordan23, 17 August 2016 - 03:14 AM.






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