18 replies to this topic

[experimenting]

Hi all. 

 

I've been lurking on the forums for a few years and have found it massively helpful. I haven't posted much but that's because I don't really have enough knowledge to make meaningful contributions.

 

That said I've got a specific and unique issue that's affected my life for years now, and I really need some help.

 

It concerns alcohol. Whenever I drink, no matter how small the quantity, it's almost as if some switches in my brain are turned off permanently. I'm a worse version of myself-more nervous, not as insightful, lazier, just flat out dumber. These of course are the short-term effects of alcohol use but for everyone else they disappear within a few days and they are back to normal.

 

Not me-the symptoms persist (in a small way, of course-I'm not permanently hungover) but I'm noticeably off my peak and can't seem to return to it naturally.

 

Enter piracetam-I discovered this in college and it was nearly life-changing. The semester in which I used it, my GPA jumped by .25 as it turned my mind back on. Nowadays, the only daily supplement I use is ALCAR which I like for the metabolic benefits and overall wakefulness/energy. That said, whenever I drink I have to follow this with a few day "course" of piracetam after which the switches are back on and I'm fine again. That said I have a lot of negative side effects with piracetam, I find it causes me tremendous fatigue and weight gain. Also piracetam doesn't always work so sometimes I find myself in a fog for a few days.

 

As you can imagine this has wreaked havoc on my social life, I can't go out without "drink-dodging" and god forbid I go to a club, bar etc. I have never drunk to excess but it would be nice of course to enjoy a night out without suffering as I do.

 

My health is unremarkable apart from one thing-I have horrible cardio fitness, I can barely run 1 mile without feeling like I'm going to die. I wonder if this is the source of my issue, when I was younger I was in better shape and I remember after a few hours of tennis I'd feel very calm/relaxed/focused.

 

Has anyone else experienced this issue? What could be my problem and what is a possible solution?

 

Thanks and regards

[gamesguru]

Could be some interference with liver enzymes, which might dramatically increase the half-life?  Talk to a liver doc, definitely avoid grapefruit (okay, bad joke).  It could also be some supersensitive polymorphism on nmda, gaba, dopamine, or acetycholine (major receptors affected by ethanol).  Specific noots (ginkgo, ginseng, bacopa, tea) are likely to facilitate a speedier return to baseline as compared with placebo.

 

I agree with the piracetam being inconsistent and sometimes causing fog or exhaustion.  That's why I ditched it. 

Definitely.  Improvements in diet and more exercise are almost always good things... unless your names usain bolt

[experimenting]

The thing is, it's only my mental performance that suffers hence I don't think it's liver related. My athletic performance bounces back "normally".

The issue is the permanence of the effects. If I returned to normal slower, I would accept that, it's just my biology etc. but the fact that something is permanently switched off is disturbing and as I've said is causing me lots of social problems.

[gamesguru]

Yeah, a supersensitive polymorphism.  Makes it easy for drugs (of a certain class) to get you stuck in a downregulated equilibrium, e.g. a predisposition to depolarized membranes or some shiet.  Whatever it is son, you've got an unusually response to alcohol, now don't ya?

[StevesPetRat]

Try thiamine, or better yet, one of its fat-soluble derivatives like allithiamine or sulbutiamine.

 

Might not work, but if it does, it's a cheap and simple fix.

[experimenting]

I really do have a problem hence my desperation. Actually your reply depresses me because I was hoping it was my lack of any cardio fitness was the issue (hence fixable) but you're telling me it might be real and something I have to live with.

Steve-what's the rationale behind those?

Thanks, and anyone else?

[maxwatt]

I found that aniracetam worked better for me than piracetam, and no fatigue.  YMMV.  Haven't tried the other racetams.

 

Look into dihydromyricetin (DHM).  It blocks most of the effects of alcohol, but also boosts the liver's processing speed for acetaldehyde, the major breakdown product of alcohol that is responsible for many of hangovers' effects.  It's available on Amazon, and there is a thread about it on these forums. 

 

Telling people you are a recovering alcoholic usually stops the pressure for social drinking.

[gamesguru]

Yeah man, just stop drinking alcohol.  Easiest solution.  End of thread.  Everyone can get back to their tinder conversations ffs

[experimenting]

Yeah I hear you, but I do enjoy the occasional social drink or two, and I don't really want to have to give it up due to an unquantifiable reaction. And nobody seems to have a clue what the issue is (my parents can drink just fine so don't think it's genetic).

I'm really wondering if perhaps seriously upping my cardio might alleviate the issue as that's the only outlier I have with my health.

That or does anyone else share my problem?

[gamesguru]

Others probably share your problem, but are not here to represent themselves.  Without knowing more about your condition, such as what works in hastening the return to baseline, or what other substances induce a similar lingering deficit, it is difficult to characterize its origin or recommend a better cure.

[experimenting]

Urgh ok. Thanks for responding, as you can see I'm looking for a definitive answer that probably doesn't exist.

I've always had issues with fatigue/attention and it seems alcohol heightens these. I suppose it could be cardio fitness related and I'm going to start there. Also sulbutamine looks promising but more research required.

[experimenting]

Oh and to answer your question-piracetam gets me back to baseline. Caffeine does not. Haven't used other substances but I imagine any depressant would put me in the same state.

[Junk Master]

I'm combining phenylpiracetam, noopept, DHM, Deprenyl, and low dose modafinil with good results in terms of synergy.

 

I just stopped drinking a few weeks ago in order to drop body weight and run competitively (50-55) age group beginning this spring.

[experimenting]

Well...I failed to implement my experiment. Had a few drinks last night to send off a colleague, and got up to run this morning to see if just cardio exercise might help me "wake up" and overcome my issue. I was actually feeling quite refreshed but caved and took 3200mg piracetam which did the trick with its usual strange metabolic consequences for me (decreased fitness, increased appetite, more propensity to put on fat).

Subultiamine looks promising as it seems to better fit my specifications-from what I read it's that "one-off" nootropic that resets you, which seems like exactly what I need. If it has no adverse physical effects then I might be good to go. What do you guys think?

Also J-that's quite a combination you have going there. Why are you taking so many things? I tried Noopept a few times and didn't love it. Now that seems to nuke my cardio fitness completely, and I also feel spaces out on it.

[StevesPetRat]

Steve-what's the rationale behind those?

These studies, basically.

Or do you mean why fat soluble thiamine derivatives?

 

Read the first paragraph of the introduction in this article, for example. Edit: to be more explicit, the fat-soluble derivatives bypass the rate-limiting absorption mechanism.

 

The other thing that would be easy to try is to take a hefty dose of activated charcoal before / after you drink; perhaps some quirk of your microbiome is causing it to be metabolized into something more inflammatory.

Edited by StevesPetRat, 23 August 2016 - 12:04 AM.

[gamesguru]

It's an issue with nmda or acetylcholine regulation. It isn't getting back to baseline without piracetam. Ginkgo would probably do the same.

[experimenting]

It's an issue with nmda or acetylcholine regulation. It isn't getting back to baseline without piracetam. Ginkgo would probably do the same.

To be totally clear you mean that sulbutiamine would not help me for this issue? (I'm interested in trying it independently of this situation however)

[gamesguru]

It would not be helpful, if only thiamine had nothing to do with glutamate or acetylcholine, which it does:

 

Evidence for a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on glutamatergic and dopaminergic cortical transmissions in the rat brain.
Trovero F1, Gobbi M, Weil-Fuggaza J, Besson MJ, Brochet D, Pirot S. (2000)

Chronic treatment of rats by sulbutiamine induced no change in density of N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) and (+/-)-alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methylisoxazole-4-propionic acid receptors in the cingular cortex, but a significant decrease of the kainate binding sites, as measured by quantitative autoradiography. In the same treated animals, an increase of D1 dopaminergic (DA) binding sites was measured both in the prefrontal and the cingular cortex, while no modification of the D2 binding sites was detected. Furthermore, an acute sulbutiamine administration induced a decrease of kainate binding sites but no change of the density of D1 and D2 DA receptors. Acute sulbutiamine injection led to a decrease of the DA levels in the prefrontal cortex and 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid levels in both the cingular and the prefrontal cortex. These observations are discussed in terms of a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on both dopaminergic and glutamatergic cortical transmissions.

Impairment of acetylcholine synthesis in thiamine deficient rats developed by prolonged tea consumption.
Ruenwongsa P, Pattanavibag S. (1984)

The synthesis of whole brain acetylcholine is reduced in thiamine deficient rats produced by prolonged administration of tea. In those rats fed a normal diet and given tea (1:50, w/v) instead of drinking water for 20 weeks, the conversion of [14C] pyruvate to [14C]acetylcholine decreased by 35%. However, no neurological symptoms were observed. Administration of tea to rats fed a thiamine half-deficient diet for 7-8 weeks caused not only 60% decrease in acetylcholine synthesis but also neurological symptoms. This decreased synthesis of acetylcholine is related to a decline in pyruvate dehydrogenase activity. The results suggest that prolonged administration of tea to rats cause an impairment of acetyl CoA production resulting in a deficit in acetylcholine synthesizing capacity.

The Role of Thiamine Deficiency in Alcoholic Brain Disease
Peter R. Martin, M.D. (2004)    

A deficiency in the essential nutrient thiamine resulting from chronic alcohol consumption is one factor underlying alcohol–induced brain damage. Thiamine is a helper molecule (i.e., a cofactor) required by three enzymes involved in two pathways of carbohydrate metabolism. Because intermediate products of these pathways are needed for the generation of other essential molecules in the cells (e.g., building blocks of proteins and DNA as well as brain chemicals), a reduction in thiamine can interfere with numerous cellular functions, leading to serious brain disorders, including Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome, which is found predominantly in alcoholics. Chronic alcohol consumption can result in thiamine deficiency by causing inadequate nutritional thiamine intake, decreased absorption of thiamine from the gastrointestinal tract, and impaired thiamine utilization in the cells. People differ in their susceptibility to thiamine deficiency, however, and different brain regions also may be more or less sensitive to this condition.

[owtsgmi]

I would skip Piracetam and try coluracetam.  I would try 10mg or less daily (I take about 3mg).  The coluracetam will increase your utilization of acetylcholine, which could be depleted by your alcohol consumption.  Piracetam used to always give me brain fog, but the coluracetam never does.  I take it with about 3mg PRL-8-53, which "displays possible cholinergic properties" according to Wikipedia.  Thiamine is definitely good with booze.  And, check your Lithium levels (e.g., hair analysis).  Or, just take a standard 130mg lithium orotate tablet (w/ ~4mg elemental lithium) and see if it clears up the brain fog - you will know in a day if this works.  Nasal insulin (1 snoot per day) is great for combating brain fog as well - search Lost Falco.  Also, check your testosterone levels.  If they are low, then supplement with drops of testosterone enanthate in a suspension of DMSO (3mg per day on wrist) - see www.youngagain.org.

owtsgmi