16 replies to this topic

[Kierkegaardian]

Four or five years ago I was prescribed 50 mcg of levothyroxine, which made me feel considerably better, and aided me in the realization that I've had fatigue issues pretty much my entire life. Gradually the effect seemed to fade, and nine months later (because of a doc who doesn't understand what free T4 means) I was taken off this med, diagnosed with low testosterone after going through a breakdown of intense insomnia, fatigue, and anxiety, and months later tried thyroid meds again. This time I started with Armour thyroid at 30 mg, then slow release T3 in conjunction with 50 mcg levothyroxine, and later 75 mcg of T4 only; all of these treatments caused significant increases in fatigue and brain fog (and with the 75 mcg T4 significant muscle weakness), making me feel cumulatively worse.

 

These responses weren't the ones you see with too much thyroid hormone, or with having too little cortisol or iron; you'd expect to see hyperthyroid symptoms, and my symptoms seemed the opposite of this. I eventually went on to try up to 30 mg of hydrocortisone in four divided doses throughout the day without any change in symptoms, and ferritin/iron levels are in range (I'm still currently supplementing with iron to bring ferritin to over 100 at my specialist's request, my usual level being around 70). 

 

This failure in treatment leads me to think something else is going on. Dr Ben Lynch has said that supplementing with thyroid hormone without taking care of mitochondrial issues basically hammers the mitochondria, causing the person to feel worse. I have below-the-cutoff coq10 levels, and (according to Spectracell testing) moderately low levels of glutathione, and my folate level is always very high, well above the cutoff (seeming to indicate significant methylation issues). I have compound heterozygous MTHFR, CBS+/+, two COMT+/+, and SOD2 +/+, among other mutations.

 

Anyone have any insight on this idea of mitochondrial insufficiency (or anything else) as a reason for thyroid meds causing my negative reaction?

[pamojja]

Don't know if this could help. Just heard in an on-line interview that a very few hypothyroid patients do better taking their Armour thyroid before sleep for the same issues you experience. Maybe worth a trial?

Edited by pamojja, 22 August 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[aconita]

If you are negative to Ashimoto Instead of taking Armour thyroid I suggest Iodoral or Lugol (which is the same thing but in liquid form instead of tabs) or SSKI.

 

Start low (half iodoral tab) and slowly increase dosage til side effects start bothering, according to side effects nature: 

 

- nausea and general bad feelings immediately after taking the tabs: if dosage is relatively low (for example 1or 2 Iodoral tabs) it is likely a reaction to thyroid detox, lower dosage, split in two a day, increase more slowly, be patient, this side effects means the cause of your issues is on its way to be cleared.

 

- metallic taste, frontal headache, running nose (not necessarily all of these) independently from time of assunction: dosage is too high, stop for a couple of days than resume but at a slightly lower dose and stay there.

 

Four Iodoral tabs/day is max dosage, it might take quite a long time to solve the issue, possibly up to 1 year or more (but it can be much faster).

 

A urine iodine load test could be helpful.

 

Check (site, books, videos) or contact DR. Brownstain for more information.

[Polyamine]

The mutations you have are often caused by epigenetic shifts which are influenced by pathogens.  I often see VDR++ mutations with the ones you have as well.  Manganese, zinc, selenium, and copper are all elements that have a tendency to be decreased with those mutations.  The low selenium, manganese and COMT++ could help explain your thyroid issues as well.  COMT complicates methylation and lowers thyroid levels through dopamine modulation.

 

Brain fog is often caused by ammonia build up.  Having a CBS++ mutation means that your cysteine intake is critical.  Eating foods with fewer thiol groups or sulfur would be beneficial and supplementing molybdenum could help detoxify your system.  Animal protein intake will contribute to higher ammonia levels and brain fog because it can increase ammonia absorption through the portal vein.  For now, your diet needs to be evaluated and corrected to diminish adverse effects.  Experiment eating protein only once or twice a week and see if things get better.  Eating too much protein can increase carnitine levels which can lower thyroid hormone levels. 

 

http://www.sciencedi...161813X07000782

 

http://onlinelibrary...tomisedMessage=

 

 

[ceridwen]

I have Hashimiotos,1 bad COMT heterozygous,
1 bad and 1 good SNP for VDR,
1 bad SOD
What should I do?
Good CBS

[PeaceAndProsperity]

As has been said a thousand times and has been stated by various companies offering sequencing, those mutations are extremely common in the European population. You have to look at mutation frequency before you jump to any conclusion.

Every single human has millions of mutations.

 

[ceridwen]

MTHFR heterozygous

[Kierkegaardian]

If you are negative to Ashimoto Instead of taking Armour thyroid I suggest Iodoral or Lugol (which is the same thing but in liquid form instead of tabs) or SSKI.

 

Start low (half iodoral tab) and slowly increase dosage til side effects start bothering, according to side effects nature: 

 

- nausea and general bad feelings immediately after taking the tabs: if dosage is relatively low (for example 1or 2 Iodoral tabs) it is likely a reaction to thyroid detox, lower dosage, split in two a day, increase more slowly, be patient, this side effects means the cause of your issues is on its way to be cleared.

 

- metallic taste, frontal headache, running nose (not necessarily all of these) independently from time of assunction: dosage is too high, stop for a couple of days than resume but at a slightly lower dose and stay there.

 

Four Iodoral tabs/day is max dosage, it might take quite a long time to solve the issue, possibly up to 1 year or more (but it can be much faster).

 

A urine iodine load test could be helpful.

 

Check (site, books, videos) or contact DR. Brownstain for more information.

 

Thanks.  One doc recommended iodine supplementation even though my blood levels were just above the middle of the range.  I've never seen Dr Brownstein mention blood testing, and he says 90% of his patients have iodine deficiency.  I also know that the the thyroid produces hydrogen peroxide, which is supposed to work with iodine, so presumably if iodine is too low that can cause problems.  Do you know if blood testing just isn't useful?

[Kierkegaardian]

The mutations you have are often caused by epigenetic shifts which are influenced by pathogens.  I often see VDR++ mutations with the ones you have as well.  Manganese, zinc, selenium, and copper are all elements that have a tendency to be decreased with those mutations.  The low selenium, manganese and COMT++ could help explain your thyroid issues as well.  COMT complicates methylation and lowers thyroid levels through dopamine modulation.

 

Brain fog is often caused by ammonia build up.  Having a CBS++ mutation means that your cysteine intake is critical.  Eating foods with fewer thiol groups or sulfur would be beneficial and supplementing molybdenum could help detoxify your system.  Animal protein intake will contribute to higher ammonia levels and brain fog because it can increase ammonia absorption through the portal vein.  For now, your diet needs to be evaluated and corrected to diminish adverse effects.  Experiment eating protein only once or twice a week and see if things get better.  Eating too much protein can increase carnitine levels which can lower thyroid hormone levels. 

 

http://www.sciencedi...161813X07000782

 

http://onlinelibrary...tomisedMessage=

 

I'm VDR-- btw.

 

But I might need carnitine supplementation given possible mitochondrial issues (I tried d-ribose with no success), and I've also heard carnitine helps with the CBS++ mutation.  I've also tried testing with sulfate strips and seem to show up on the high end (1200 to 1600), but the thing here is I take diindolylmethane, which is one of the only supplements that's significantly helped me, and this presumably goes back to COMT++ and the disproportion of bad to good estrogen -- but DIM is huge in sulfur content!  

 

I'll definitely be giving the low sulfur diet a shot, while also lowering DIM, and taking yucca and other supplements while lowering protein intake to see if that does anything.  

Does anyone know if thyroid hormones "hammer" mitochondria if mitochondria aren't properly supported?

[aconita]

Blood test is totally unreliable about thyroid issues, unless one is really on the extreme they will show basically nothing wrong, that's why there are so many undiagnosed hypothyroidism cases around.

 

The problem deserves a bit of an explanation to make it clear.

 

The thyroid needs iodine in order to function properly, not only the thyroid but since we are talking about it lets focus on it.

 

Iodine is an halogen, there other elements in the halogen family but the one of concern is bromine.

 

Iodine is relatively scarce in nature and in some part of the world is really scarce, bromine is quite scarce as well in nature.

 

The thyroid absorbs all the iodine available with the highest concentration of all other tissues in the body but is not able to make a difference between halogens therefore absorbs any halogen coming by like if there is no tomorrow.

 

Once the thyroid is full of halogen saturation is achieved and no more halogens are going to get in.

 

Nowadays bromine, once a scarce element to come in contact with, is everywhere surrounding us, it is added massively to plastics (the "new" smell of new cars' interiors is actually the smell of bromine leaching from the interior plastics) and it is even added to flour...

 

It is easy to understand how bromine and iodine are in competition and guess who is winning?

 

Most of us does have a thyroid more or less saturated of bromine which doesn't allow the little iodine we get from food to get in the thyroid.

 

A urine iodine load is the only test that shows how bad that is because taking four Iodoral tabs at once and testing the urine afterward for iodine content shows quite well how much iodine is actually able to get where it should.

 

Supplementing iodine will shift the odds in favor of iodine which slowly will kick the bromine out and finally substitute to it in the thyroid where it belongs, it might take time and sometimes can be a bit unpleasant but it will happen.

 

A blood test is unable to detect this situation, only major hormonal unbalances will show up but serious health issues will take place well before detectable hormonal changes are of such of a magnitude mainstream doctors start to worry... and when they do the root cause of the problem is not addressed prescribing hormone substitute, the more sensitive prescribing porcine desiccated thyroid (Armour thyroid) instead of synthetic....but still it is not the smartest way to fix the problem and since the actual problem is not fixed but merely covered up a good deal of issues are obviously still there...and likely getting worst in time.

 

This is in short a clumsy exposition of how Dr.Brownstein explains the whole thing and to me makes sense enough.  

 

 

 

 

[Polyamine]

The above post is an excellent example of how our body functions when we become sick.  We become deficient in one element and we absorb another element and it causes our functioning to be less efficient.  A situation that can occur has to do with the conversion of dihydrobiopterin to tetrahydrobiopterin.  This reaction can be blocked by several different ways, but one I've seen before is a deficiency of pterin moieties.  Pterins are bioflavinoid base moieties and we get them from colored fruits and vegetables.  When we are sick, we have to make sure we eat enough pterins so that our system can function properly.  Gastrointestinal yeasts must be monitored so that they don't get out of hand.  I surmise that this situation occurs more often than not and a deficiency like this is what leads to the epigenetic shifts.  NO is produced in such high quantities that the BH₂ can't keep up and BH₄ levels become diminished.  pH plays a role here as well. 

[Kierkegaardian]

Blood test is totally unreliable about thyroid issues, unless one is really on the extreme they will show basically nothing wrong, that's why there are so many undiagnosed hypothyroidism cases around.

 

The problem deserves a bit of an explanation to make it clear.

 

The thyroid needs iodine in order to function properly, not only the thyroid but since we are talking about it lets focus on it.

 

Iodine is an halogen, there other elements in the halogen family but the one of concern is bromine.

 

Iodine is relatively scarce in nature and in some part of the world is really scarce, bromine is quite scarce as well in nature.

 

The thyroid absorbs all the iodine available with the highest concentration of all other tissues in the body but is not able to make a difference between halogens therefore absorbs any halogen coming by like if there is no tomorrow.

 

Once the thyroid is full of halogen saturation is achieved and no more halogens are going to get in.

 

Nowadays bromine, once a scarce element to come in contact with, is everywhere surrounding us, it is added massively to plastics (the "new" smell of new cars' interiors is actually the smell of bromine leaching from the interior plastics) and it is even added to flour...

 

It is easy to understand how bromine and iodine are in competition and guess who is winning?

 

Most of us does have a thyroid more or less saturated of bromine which doesn't allow the little iodine we get from food to get in the thyroid.

 

A urine iodine load is the only test that shows how bad that is because taking four Iodoral tabs at once and testing the urine afterward for iodine content shows quite well how much iodine is actually able to get where it should.

 

Supplementing iodine will shift the odds in favor of iodine which slowly will kick the bromine out and finally substitute to it in the thyroid where it belongs, it might take time and sometimes can be a bit unpleasant but it will happen.

 

A blood test is unable to detect this situation, only major hormonal unbalances will show up but serious health issues will take place well before detectable hormonal changes are of such of a magnitude mainstream doctors start to worry... and when they do the root cause of the problem is not addressed prescribing hormone substitute, the more sensitive prescribing porcine desiccated thyroid (Armour thyroid) instead of synthetic....but still it is not the smartest way to fix the problem and since the actual problem is not fixed but merely covered up a good deal of issues are obviously still there...and likely getting worst in time.

 

This is in short a clumsy exposition of how Dr.Brownstein explains the whole thing and to me makes sense enough.  

 

So Brownstein considers blood testing useless?  

 

Do you know of any at-home testing for iodine testing, without a doctor's prescription?

[aconita]

As I explained blood test will show abnormalities only when the thyroid is already seriously compromised and the situation totally out of control, a symptoms based diagnosis is more accurate by far as is basal temperature measuring..

 

No prescription for urine iodine loading test, only home testing (sending urine samples to laboratory) as far as I know.

 

http://www.optimox.com/iodine-study-21

[Kierkegaardian]

As I explained blood test will show abnormalities only when the thyroid is already seriously compromised and the situation totally out of control, a symptoms based diagnosis is more accurate by far as is basal temperature measuring..

 

No prescription for urine iodine loading test, only home testing (sending urine samples to laboratory) as far as I know.

 

http://www.optimox.com/iodine-study-21

 

Any dangers in taking that much iodine for the frontloading test?  I currently don't have insurance, so would hate to rack up medical bills with an ER visit.  

[aconita]

One 12.5 mg tablet of Iodoral® supplies an amount of total elemental iodine comparable to the average daily intake of this essential element by mainland Japanese.

 

No way 4 of those can cause issues.

 

With iodine it is not the one high dose posing problems (actually not even 2, 3 or even 4 or 5), eventually it is the prolonged in time high dosage that will cause some issues, issues disappearing promptly as one stops.

 

Some individuals take 4 iodoral a day for months or even years.

 

Iodine is actually very safe since side effects like running nose, metallic taste or frontal headache automatically warns it is too much.

 

When I feel like a cold might start, when I came near by someone with a flu or when I suspect some food could be bacteria contaminated my protocol is 7 SSKI drops in half glass of water 3 or 4 times a day, I keep this til running nose starts to happen (usually a couple of days) since I know that is my first reaction to iodine overdose, I stop and in a few hours it's all gone, I didn't catch a cold or flu since I am doing this.

 

An unpleasant reaction might happen if the thyroid is heavily intoxicated by bromine, it would be likely nausea and feeling like shit for an hour or so, nothing that you are not going to survive.

[Kierkegaardian]

One 12.5 mg tablet of Iodoral® supplies an amount of total elemental iodine comparable to the average daily intake of this essential element by mainland Japanese.

 

No way 4 of those can cause issues.

 

With iodine it is not the one high dose posing problems (actually not even 2, 3 or even 4 or 5), eventually it is the prolonged in time high dosage that will cause some issues, issues disappearing promptly as one stops.

 

Some individuals take 4 iodoral a day for months or even years.

 

Iodine is actually very safe since side effects like running nose, metallic taste or frontal headache automatically warns it is too much.

 

When I feel like a cold might start, when I came near by someone with a flu or when I suspect some food could be bacteria contaminated my protocol is 7 SSKI drops in half glass of water 3 or 4 times a day, I keep this til running nose starts to happen (usually a couple of days) since I know that is my first reaction to iodine overdose, I stop and in a few hours it's all gone, I didn't catch a cold or flu since I am doing this.

 

An unpleasant reaction might happen if the thyroid is heavily intoxicated by bromine, it would be likely nausea and feeling like shit for an hour or so, nothing that you are not going to survive.

 

 

Thanks for your insight.

 

So is it possible that if the thyroid is clogged up with halides (bromide, flouride, etc.) even though iodine levels are decent that there could be functional hypothyroid symptoms?

[aconita]

Yes, when the thyroid is saturated with bromine a little bit of iodine is not enough, you'll have to provide a iodine rich environment for a relatively long time in order to shift the odds in favor of iodine and slowly substitute it to bromine.

 

Once an healthy thyroid condition is achieved just a small amount of iodine will suffice to keep things in control, bromine exposure has to be as low as possible, of course.