26 replies to this topic

[twinkly]

Hey fine folks,

 

I need some help and input as to whether or not I should pull the trigger on either of this. This one is the one I've been eyeing and one that is readily available to me locally, however I'm open to order online if need be, based on your input.

 

The contents of the one I've been looking at:

 

B1 (thiamine mononitrate) 50 mg/4545%

B2 (riboflavin) 50 mg/3571%

B3 (niacinamide) 50mg/312%

B5 (calcium pantothenate) 50 mg/833%

B6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) 50 mg/3571%

Folic Acid 400 ug/200%

Biotin 300 ug/600%

B12 (methylcobalamin) 50 ug/2000

Choline (choline bitartrate) 100 mg

Inositol 100 mg

50 mg of PABA

 

--

 

I know Thorne Research, B-Complex #12 appears to be another favorite across these boards, but I figured I'd ask before settling on either of these, or any other you might have in mind for that matter. I prefer vegetarian supplements. Please share any links of ones you might recommend and I'd certainly consider it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by twinkly, 29 August 2016 - 04:53 PM.

[aconita]

Why do you plan to supplement vitamins B?

[twinkly]

Looking to feel in some gaps. I mostly follow a vegan diet and haven't had any problems with it. But I always fear the possibility of deficiency. Currently I do take isolated b12(cynaocobalamin), but from doing some searching it seems methyl is better, and that it works better when synergized with other b vitamins.

Are either of them appropriate?

[aconita]

Unfortunately with your choice of a diet which has gaps to be filled in you are already far from optimal, being too picky about supplements makes little sense at this point.

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

B-Complex Vitamins are one supp that is best taken in low doses, a couple / several times a day.  B-12 and Thiamine in particular are only absorbed in small amounts no matter how large the dose, so smaller, more frequent dosing is optimal.  

 

The problem with dosing B-Complex more than once a day is folic acid, which is something you don't want to megadose.  Food fortification of folic acid has already been increased to reduce neural tube defects during pregnancy.  The standard supplement dose for folic acid is 400mcg, and this isn't something you want to double up on or triple.  

 

I had to scour the internet for B-Complex with low/no folic acid, and finally found a cheap drugstore brand (Rite Aid B-Complex with Vitamin B-12).  It has NO folic acid, which is fine with me, as I get substantial amounts from fortified foods and have been trying to consume more foods high in folate.  

 

The Rite Aid formula is also low dose...  

 

Thiamine 3mg

 

Riboflavin 3mg

 

Niacin 20mg

 

B6, 2mg

 

B-12, 6mcg

 

Pantothenic Acid, 10mg

 

At these doses, I can take one of these with every meal (3/day) and get optimal absorption and stable blood levels without worrying about megadosing madness.  

 

Seek out a low dose formula, preferably with low/no folic acid (as you're likely getting this from fortified food or vegan diet), and take it 2 or 3 times a day.  

Edited by synesthesia, 30 August 2016 - 04:25 AM.

[hamishm00]

B-Complex Vitamins are one supp that is best taken in low doses, a couple / several times a day.  B-12 and Thiamine in particular are only absorbed in small amounts no matter how large the dose, so smaller, more frequent dosing is optimal.  

 

The problem with dosing B-Complex more than once a day is folic acid, which is something you don't want to megadose.

 

Seek out a low dose formula, preferably with low/no folic acid (as you're likely getting this from fortified food or vegan diet), and take it 2 or 3 times a day.  

 

You are right, synesthesia. I would avoid all B complexes that contain Folic acid. In terms of supplements, the form of folate that you should focus on is 6(S)-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate as this is the primary biologically active diastereoisomer of folate and the primary form of folate in circulation and transported across membranes into peripheral tissues (including across the blood brain barrier). About 70% of food folate and cellular folate is 6(S)-5-MTHF.

 

Folic acid metabolism is completely different, involving reduction and methylation in the liver and conversion to the THF form requires the dihydrofolate reductase enzyme whose activity is low or non-existent in some people (genetic mutations of MTHFR result in a cell’s inability to convert folic acid to 6(S)-5-MTHF - MTHFR gene mutations affect 30-50% of the population). The cancer risk associated with folic acid seems linked to unmetabolized folic acid in the system and not linked to whether or not you are taking a high dose of 6(S)-5-MTHF.

Edited by hamishm00, 30 August 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[timar]

If you don't mind taking a complete multivitamin, LEF Two-Per-Day at 1/2 dose (one per day) is by far the most economical option, and it is well formulated. Here are the B vitamins you get from that dose:

Thiamine (vitamin B1) (as thiamine HCI) 37,5 mg
Riboflavin (vitamin B2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5’-phosphate) 25 mg
Niacin (as niacinamide, niacinamide ascorbate) 25 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCI, pyridoxal 5’-phosphate) 37,5 mg
Folate (as L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate calcium salt) 200 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamin) 150 mcg
Biotin 150 mcg
Pantothenic acid (as D-calcium pantothenate) 50 mg
Choline (as choline bitartrate) 10 mg

Inositol 25 mg

 

I like the fact that it contains L-5-MTFH, enough methylated B12 to facilitate passive absorption, and some of the activated forms of the other B vitamins as well. I also like the fact that it contains little choline, as large doses of supplemental choline could possibly boost the intestinal production of TMAO. I think the other vitamins and minerals also come in reasonable forms and doses. Although in my opinion some are slightly overdosed if you take the suggested two per day - so I'd stay with one.

 

Oh, btw., you even get a homeopathic dose (500 mcg) of Nicotinamide Riboside

 

That's about 10 cents per day. Take the money you save vs. other supplements and invest it in improving your diet!

Edited by timar, 30 August 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[pamojja]

I prefer http://www.lifeexten...plete-B-Complex, it comes in 2 per day, 1 is about the doses you envisioned, comes without folic acid and a lot of more of the better forms of B vitamins. And is cheap from an otherwise expensive but good company.

 

Unfortunately with your choice of a diet which has gaps to be filled in you are already far from optimal, being too picky about supplements makes little sense at this point.

 

I monitored for 3 years my micro-nutrient intake, and failed in closing the gaps to get at least to the RDA by specifically adding those foods high in the missing nutrients. Impossible to remedy already existing deficiencies this way.

 

Also there are good reason to take some of the B vitamins at higher doses (homocysteine, cholesterol..). Since metabolism of the Bs is highly interlinked one would likely risk deficiency in the others not taken at somewhat higher doses too.

 

In my case with a chronic disease it showed highly beneficial, along with a good diet.

 

 

edit: see Timar meanwhile has recommended Lef's Two-per-day, an other good option at 1 per day with all the other essential nutrients and a bid lower Bs.

Edited by pamojja, 30 August 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[twinkly]

Thanks to all of you for chiming in, I really appreciate it.

 

synesthesia, as for the one you made mention of, it sure looks like a good supplement, but as is often the case they only ship within the US, so I'm unable to order that one, but I've made a note of it in case I can track it done from elsewhere. No dice at iherb either.

 

I'm considering the B-Complex pamojja linked to, and the fact that the shipping isn't crippling is reassuring for sure. Timar, the multivitamin sounds like another good option as well. I suppose I shouldn't be taking the two of those at the same time?

 

Why is too much folic acid a detriment in supplements, and generally best avoided?

 

Just to pull out all the stops, can I also get your guys' opinion on Thorne Research, B-Complex #12  -- http://iherb.com/tho...CFQLicgodMgIJdA

 

Edited by twinkly, 30 August 2016 - 04:31 PM.

[aconita]

I monitored for 3 years my micro-nutrient intake, and failed in closing the gaps to get at least to the RDA by specifically adding those foods high in the missing nutrients. Impossible to remedy already existing deficiencies this way.

 

Also there are good reason to take some of the B vitamins at higher doses (homocysteine, cholesterol..). Since metabolism of the Bs is highly interlinked one would likely risk deficiency in the others not taken at somewhat higher doses too.

 

In my case with a chronic disease it showed highly beneficial, along with a good diet.

 

Therefore without micronutrients supplements humans are unable to get at least the RDA...

 

...and those RDA have been set on what basis than, supplement industry revenues?

 

Since we are talking about B vitamins, which are hydro soluble and excreted so quickly one has to take them trice a day (according to illuminating previous posts), do you mind to explain in details how come that it is "impossible to remedy already existing deficiencies this way"?

 

Skipping one day supplementation or, even worse, having one day fasting will cause a deficiency impossible to remedy without supplementation...yeah, sure.

 

By the way, a case of chronic disease doesn't seem like the more appropriate example in order to justify B vitamins supplementation.

 

In an average balanced diet the B vitamins are the most unlikely to fall short since their abundance in most foods (B12 and B3 for the elderly might be an exception, not because they are scarce but for possible metabolic changes due to age).

 

If there is a specific need for B supplementation lets talk about it, filling the gap caused by poor nutrition is not a specific need to be addressed with supplementation, leave alone B vitamins complexes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

"Why is too much folic acid a detriment in supplements, and generally best avoided?"

 

I don't have the links handy, but although folic acid isn't supposed to "cause" cancer (adequate folate is supposed to help prevent cancer), some feel excess folic acid might "feed" a cancer that develops from other causes.  Colon cancer is mentioned most often if I remember correctly.  

 

The Thorne Research B-Complex looks good, but I wouldn't want to take this more than once a day as some of the components are dosed rather high.  

 

I looked for low dose B-Complex with low folic acid online for hours without success, but stumbled upon the Rite Aid formula in the drug store by accident.  You might look into the B-Comples formulas in your local stores to see if there is a low dose, low/no folic acid supp available.  You might be surprised at what you find.  I noticed the B-Complex labeled "Stress Formula" often contained lower doses of folic acid as they are designed to be taken more often than once a day.  

 

Keep total daily supplemental folic acid at 400mcg or less.  

Edited by synesthesia, 31 August 2016 - 02:52 AM.

[Darryl]

Every B complex, save perhaps the one synesthesia found, has way too much B2 (riboflavin). If you insist on taking one, do so near sunset so most excess of this photosensizer will be pissed out before the sun rises.

 

twinkly, I'm also a dietary vegan. Get some liquid B12, add a liberal dropperful to your drinking water, and eat an otherwise diverse diet. The other B-vitamins will be well covered.

Edited by Darryl, 31 August 2016 - 03:10 AM.

[twinkly]

Thank you for the responses

Synesthesia, the Rite-aid formula looks really economical not just from a price point perspective, but from the fact that it isn't overloaded. It's frustrating I can't get it though. Hopefully one of these days they'll ship internationally. Virtually no other online store carries it.

Darryl, do you have a liquid-based b12 you could link me to? I'd like to have access to as much quality products recommended by everyone on here as I can.

Edited by twinkly, 31 August 2016 - 03:52 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

A pill cutter might come in handy...  I've got one and use it to trim down the dose of many of my supplements (mostly minerals).  

 

Cut what ever pill you eventually find in half and take half a tab twice a day.  

[timar]

Darryl, that's a huge collection of in vitro studies on the photosensitizing effects of riboflavin, most of them using molar concentrations way beyond anything anything you could achieve by oral megadoses, or requiring the presence of chromium VI, which is a well-known carcinogen. If photosensitizing effects would occur in humans in commonly taken doses (i.e. up to 100 mg), we would surely know about it and authorities would have set an UL based on these effects long ago. Personally I have never experienced any increased susceptibility to sunburn from taking riboflavin. The only thing that really bothers me about riboflavin is that you can't wear white underpants anymore

 

I agree however that a B complex supplement is unnecessary for most people and the effects people claim to experience from it are probably mostly placebo effects. Well, there's nothing wrong about that as long as it is safe and inexpensive. Don't waste money on supplements if that money could be spend on improving you diet!

[hamishm00]

"Why is too much folic acid a detriment in supplements, and generally best avoided?"

 

I don't have the links handy, but although folic acid isn't supposed to "cause" cancer (adequate folate is supposed to help prevent cancer), some feel excess folic acid might "feed" a cancer that develops from other causes.  Colon cancer is mentioned most often if I remember correctly.  

 

The Thorne Research B-Complex looks good, but I wouldn't want to take this more than once a day as some of the components are dosed rather high.  

 

I looked for low dose B-Complex with low folic acid online for hours without success, but stumbled upon the Rite Aid formula in the drug store by accident.  You might look into the B-Comples formulas in your local stores to see if there is a low dose, low/no folic acid supp available.  You might be surprised at what you find.  I noticed the B-Complex labeled "Stress Formula" often contained lower doses of folic acid as they are designed to be taken more often than once a day.  

 

Keep total daily supplemental folic acid at 400mcg or less.  

 

http://www.jarrow.co...duct/57/B-Right

 

Very high doses across the board, but it has zero of the folic acid that can potentially cause cancer. It has only 6S-5-MTHF.

 

 

 

 

Edited by hamishm00, 31 August 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[pamojja]

Therefore without micronutrients supplements humans are unable to get at least the RDA...
 
...and those RDA have been set on what basis than, supplement industry revenues?

 
RDA has been set by IOM (wikipedia excerpt): Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA), the daily dietary intake level of a nutrient considered sufficient by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine to meet the requirements of 97.5% of healthy individuals in each life-stage and sex group.
 
They are set at a level which prevents worst deficiencies diseases, but not for optimal health or individual requirements (mthf mutations, etc.).
 

http://www.ewg.org/r...deficiencies-us
 
Nutrient from food alone, ranked by the occurrence of dietary inadequacy among adults | Percentage of dietary intakes below the estimated average requirement for a specific population* | Naturally occurring sources of nutrient** |

2-to-8-year-old children | 14-to-18-year-old girls | Adults 19 and older

Vitamin D | 81% | 98% | 95% | Fatty fish, mushrooms [vitamin D is naturally formed in the body when skin is exposed to sunlight; vitamin D is added to fortified milk]

Vitamin E | 65% | 99% | 94% | Nuts, seeds, vegetable oils, green leafy vegetables

Magnesium | 2% | 90% | 61% | Whole grains, wheat bran and wheat germ, green leafy vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds

Vitamin A | 6% | 57% | 51% | Preformed vitamin A: liver, fatty fish, milk, eggs; provitamin A carotenoids: carrots, pumpkins, tomatoes, leafy green vegetables

Calcium | 23% | 81% | 49% | Milk, yogurt, cheese, kale, broccoli

Vitamin C | 2% | 45% | 43% | All fruits and vegetables, particularly citrus fruits and tomatoes

Vitamin B6 | 0.1% | 18% | 15% | Many foods; highest levels in fish, beef, poultry, potatoes and other starchy vegetables, and fruit other than citrus

Folate | 0.2% | 19% | 13% | Many foods; highest levels in spinach, liver, asparagus, Brussels sprouts [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Zinc | 0.2% | 24% | 12% | Red meat, poultry, beans, nuts, some seafood, whole grains

Iron | 0.7% | 12% | 8% | Highest amounts in meat and seafood; lower levels in nuts and beans [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Thiamin | 0.1% | 10% | 7% | Whole grain products [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Copper | 0% | 16% | 5% | Shellfish, whole grains, beans, nuts, potatoes, organ meats (kidneys, liver)

Vitamin B12 | 0% | 7% | 4% | Animal products: fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk

Riboflavin | 0% | 5% | 2% | Milk and dairy products, eggs, meat, green leafy vegetables, legumes [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Niacin | 0.1% | 4% | 2% | Meat, fish, seeds and nuts, whole grains [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Selenium | 0% | 2% | 1% | Found in different plant and animal foods; highest levels in seafood and organ meats (kidneys, liver)

 

Since we are talking about B vitamins, which are hydro soluble and excreted so quickly one has to take them trice a day (according to illuminating previous posts), do you mind to explain in details how come that it is "impossible to remedy already existing deficiencies this way"?

Skipping one day supplementation or, even worse, having one day fasting will cause a deficiency impossible to remedy without supplementation...yeah, sure.

 
Think that's a total myth. Whenever I test blood levels it's after at least 12 hrs fasting. The only time some of my Bs came back very deficient was before starting supplementation years ago.
 

By the way, a case of chronic disease doesn't seem like the more appropriate example in order to justify B vitamins supplementation.

In an average balanced diet the B vitamins are the most unlikely to fall short since their abundance in most foods (B12 and B3 for the elderly might be an exception, not because they are scarce but for possible metabolic changes due to age).

30 years of avoiding meat without supplementation created deficiencies in my case. So better know your blood-work and supplement accordingly. It took me a long time by slowly increasing methylfolate up to 2mg to find out, that is the dose for me to get homocysteine down. 2 g/d of elemental magnesium to avoid mucsle-cramps.
 
Chronic disease and metabolic deterioration is rather the rule than the exception with advanced age.

[pamojja]

Every B complex, save perhaps the one synesthesia found, has way too much B2 (riboflavin). If you insist on taking one, do so near sunset so most excess of this photosensizer will be pissed out before the sun rises.

I made the opposite experience since starting comprehensive supplementation. Don't get any sunburns anymore, even though I sun-bath each winter at a subtropical beach for 6 weeks (without suncream). With about 75 mg/d of riboflavin taken in average during that time.
 

The only thing that really bothers me about riboflavin is that you can't wear white underpants anymore

That's also not my experience. However again, B-vitamins metabolism is heavily interlinked:

 

So it's only too likely all the riboflavin get metabolized before it reaches my underpants, by the concomitantly taken high doses of 3 g/d of B3 - against high Lp(a)) - methylfolate and B12 - ..homocysteine - etc.

[pamojja]

 

By the way, a case of chronic disease doesn't seem like the more appropriate example in order to justify B vitamins supplementation.

In an average balanced diet the B vitamins are the most unlikely to fall short since their abundance in most foods (B12 and B3 for the elderly might be an exception, not because they are scarce but for possible metabolic changes due to age).

30 years of avoiding meat without supplementation created deficiencies in my case. So better know your blood-work and supplement accordingly. It took me a long time by slowly increasing methylfolate up to 2mg to find out, that is the dose for me to get homocysteine down. 2 g/d of elemental magnesium to avoid mucsle-cramps.
 
Chronic disease and metabolic deterioration is rather the rule than the exception with advanced age.

 
Though I do agree that not everyone at young age in good health without bad habits should supplement..
 
But definitely in my case, with very severe illnesses right from birth, as a young adult again, and as a vegetarian. If I would be able to start all over again - I would definitely supplement and do rigorous blood-work to adjust dosing. Much suffering starting with age forty could have been prevented. Indicated by how much I could reverse an old age related disease (non-reversible by our standard of care) with high doses of orthomolecular supplementation. In my case of disease, good diet and lifestyle changes were necessary adjuncts, but alone not enough for reversal.
 

Unfortunately with your choice of a diet which has gaps to be filled in you are already far from optimal, being too picky about supplements makes little sense at this point.

 
But here I completely disagree. Though a healthy diet is essential for good health or in disease. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, sensible supplementation can indeed correct deficiencies. On local supplements there is always the standard statement.
 

Food supplements should not be used as substitute for a varied diet and a healthy lifestyle.

 
The consequence of following this advise for the average person, for whatever reason not having a varied diet or a healthy lifestyle for a large part of life, are more often multiple medication with advanced age.

[aconita]

Everyday I place my left index finger on an anvil and hit it with an hammer, my finger is painful for the whole time, what can I do about the pain?

 

Being born with a chronic disease or having a medical condition is not the same as deliberately choosing to hurt yourself embracing an unhealthy lifestyle in which case supplementing is as much a nonsense as taking a painkiller to answer the above question, ...actually a painkiller that will not upset my stomach, please.

 

But everybody is free to enjoy his own cup of tea, of course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pamojja]

Being born with a chronic disease or having a medical condition is not the same as deliberately choosing to hurt yourself embracing an unhealthy lifestyle in which case supplementing is as much a nonsense as taking a painkiller ..

 

I do social work and therefore try to improve somehow the pain and perspectives of people usually with multiple psychiatric diagnosis and substance abuse. Not that I ever was able to convince even one of them to start with sensible supplementation, but they are at the extreme end of the spectrum... "deliberately choosing to hurt yourself embracing an unhealthy lifestyle in which case supplementing is as much a nonsense as taking a painkiller"

 

Compared to what you consider nonsense, anything else would be simply cruel.

[Darryl]

Timar, you've got carotenoid intakes in the top 1%. I wouldn't expect you to burn easily in a nuclear war.

 

I first became curious about riboflavin due to this study:

 

Fenech et al, 2005. Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, β-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability—results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia.Carcinogenesis, 26(5), pp.991-999.

 

Are there confounders in the association of the three B-complex vitamins? There would be in other countries that require riboflavin fortification in processed foods.

 

When faced with a curious association and gifted with a curious mind, I had to find out why. In the case of riboflavin, I think there's a plausible mechanism.

[Nate-2004]

Doctor's Best is the ideal B-complex I think. It also has a good track record for quality and label accuracy on labdoor. It has the min/max recommended methylfolate of 400mcg. Don't take anymore or less than that.

 

As for "supplementation" with anything, including B vitamins, there is more to it than just treating so called "deficiencies". Taking niacin can boost NAD+, regardless of whether you're niacin deficient. Taking B6 and B12 can boost methylation so that homocysteine levels are kept in check.

 

The assumption that taking "supplements" is always and forever to treat some sort of deficiency in said "supplement" is an absurd premise. We don't take NR because we're deficient in NR, we take NR because we're deficient in NAD+. We don't take L-Theanine because there's some sort of L-Theanine deficiency. 

 

B-vitamin complex supplementation in addition to other complexes have been shown to improve lifespan and I don't think it's because people, or mice in this case, are deficient in some way.

Edited by Nate-2004, 02 September 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[aconita]

I am sick an tired of hearing about mice...those critters improve their lifespan on almost anything you give them, testosterone skyrockets on any conceivable kind of supplements, they get cancer even on fresh water (literally) and so on, all things that just don't apply to humans not even remotely.

 

There is already a huge difference in how different humans respond to the same substance, leave alone other species.

 

No doubts mice are very convenient for researchers but the outcomes of those researches are mostly risible in their practical application unless ones plan to farm mice as a profession.

 

Maybe (we really don't know yet) supplementing extra vitamin B3 and B12 are advantageous for the ELDERLY but I have yet to see any evidence that supplementing B complexes is going to make a dent in an healthy human following a normal common sense nutritional plan other than in his wallet.

 

Actually in most cases those B vitamins are synthetic and we don't really know if harm can be done in the long run, leaving alone contamination, heavy metals, fillers, preservatives and all what comes with it,

 

 

 

 

[bariotako]

I am sick an tired of hearing about mice...those critters improve their lifespan on almost anything you give them, testosterone skyrockets on any conceivable kind of supplements, they get cancer even on fresh water (literally) and so on, all things that just don't apply to humans not even remotely.

 

There is already a huge difference in how different humans respond to the same substance, leave alone other species.

 

No doubts mice are very convenient for researchers but the outcomes of those researches are mostly risible in their practical application unless ones plan to farm mice as a profession.

 

Maybe (we really don't know yet) supplementing extra vitamin B3 and B12 are advantageous for the ELDERLY but I have yet to see any evidence that supplementing B complexes is going to make a dent in an healthy human following a normal common sense nutritional plan other than in his wallet.

 

Actually in most cases those B vitamins are synthetic and we don't really know if harm can be done in the long run, leaving alone contamination, heavy metals, fillers, preservatives and all what comes with it,

 

This guy is an idiot

[pamojja]

This guy is an idiot

 

Dear bariotako, almost every one-liner-post I read from you are ad-hominems with no substantial argument whatsoever. On any other forum you would be immediately banned for such repeated personal attacks of other members. Such personal animosities never further any discussion, please abstain and actively contribute a bid more than your angry blurbs.
 

[bariotako]

Dear bariotako, almost every one-liner-post I read from you are ad-hominems with no substantial argument whatsoever. On any other forum you would be immediately banned for such repeated personal attacks of other members. Such personal animosities never further any discussion, please abstain and actively contribute a bid more than your angry blurbs.
 

 

 

This is my purpose, i hope i will get banned soon