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Optimize cognition/mood without psychosis

schizophrenia nootropics vitamins psychedelics mood depression mania

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#1 tyrosine25I

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 09:12 AM


As a result of excessive psychedelic use over the past few years (DXM, LSD, 25I-NBOMe), I was left with some unsurprising symptomatic consequences. Occasional auditory hallucinations in the form of voices have just started in the past two months (generally only occur if I am paying specific attention to them in a silent environment), simultaneous dysthymia and euthymia (normally I am one extreme or the other, not both at once), short-term memory issues (instantly forget names/faces unless through repetition, which gets embarrassing), mild confusion (details or circumstances seem not to make sense when they easily do to others), social anxiety (this is not the normal me, usually I am extroverted but recently have been introverted/isolating--although not depressed), frequent (but not constant) "clouded" feel (despite no obvious impairment in intellectual functioning), reduction in energy, and flashbacks are increasing in intensity/frequency. These aren't causing significant impairments in life functioning in general, but they are bothersome and I want to alleviate any and all that I can, without risking psychosis, depression or any other relapse of psychiatric symptom.

 

I haven't done DXM in over a year, but it did produce a long-lasting psychotomimesis that seemed to be greatly reduced by nootropics during this current year. In the past year, I wanted to push the boundaries of my mind/perception by taking supratherapeutic doses of LSD and 25I-NBOMe, but eventually it just led to an addictive pattern where I ceased to receive any of the actual rewards/insights/enlightenment from psychedelics, generated depression/psychosis and decided to stop them for quite some time (so far it has been three months, but I plan on extending this at least a couple of years). I've also discontinued cannabis a month ago (fairly frequent user, would go in monthly phases of daily use and in other monthly phases of none at all) after causing a variety of negative effects, worse than psychedelics, imo (overwhelming social anxiety, amotivation, cognitive clouding, depression, isolation, ...)

 

I've been diagnosed bipolar I, but now they're suspecting schizophrenia because it matches age/gender of onset and symptomatic presentation. I self-assessed the PANSS (I have a high awareness) and scored pretty much right in the middle, so it makes sense why this would be a theory. I've discontinued all psychiatric medication (mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, non-bzd-anxiolytics) for over five months for many reasons and have only positive things to say. I have a greater satisfaction of life, improved focus (compared to those times), more relative energy and of course none of the unnecessary side effects. Anyone who interacts with me regularly has said that I seem to be functioning much better than when I was on them, and as a result of these last five months, and general discontent with the psychiatric industry, I've vowed never to take them again (unless in a definite emergency situation). It seems that all of these conditions (and in most cases of other people, too) are just temporary and will fade with time, and that medications either prolong this period or make things worse.

 

In the past nine or so months of trying a few nootropics, I found phenylpiracetam greatly improved many of my cognitive clouding and (for a while) anxiety and depression. I'm convinced it helped repair a lot of the NMDA damage from DXM a lot more quickly (I've also read that bipolar is really rooted in NMDA/glutamate, as opposed to surface-level SE and DA, correct me if I am wrong), and those post-dissociative psychotomimesis/cloudings have all disappeared. Tolerance was noted, but not as bad as in other anecdotes I had been reading everywhere. Other racetams were ineffective (oxiracetam, aniracetam, piracetam), Noopept wasn't very noticeable (even sublingual in excess doses), and Adrafinil was highly uncomfortable (2-3 administrations consistently resulted in a highly negative and depressed state). I became convinced that phenylpiracetam would be more effective in higher and/or less doses, but this is obviously irrational and it seems that the higher doses caused depression, anxiety and even sedation, somewhat predictably. Possible aggravation of psychosis.

 

My theories are that a majority of the symptoms are as a result of the excessive psychedelics (5-HT2A activation, too much serotonin), residual cannabinoid metabolites/brain changes, possible exacerbation/progression of latent mental illness, possible residual receptor changes from multiple years of psychiatric medications, improper past use of nootropics and brain balancing out of neurotransmitters as a result of abstinence from all substances (other than caffeine, nicotine, B12, C, D3, and zinc).

 

I want to know what would be the best ways to get rid of these troublesome symptoms (although mild) while still reaping the benefits of nootropics (consistent euthymia, energetic, clarity, creativity, motivation, ...) and continuing to not take any psychiatric medication. Perhaps I wasn't using the right ones, taking improper vitamins, or lacking nutrients that I do need? What are good "low impact" ways to restore SE, DA, NE, Glu, ACh, ... levels? Would it be best to use no nootropics at all for quite some time? How important is microbiome in bipolar/schizophrenia? Is it better for BDNF to be higher or lower in cases such as these? I've been slowly re-integrating exercise into my routine and will soon be walking 10 miles or more a day at a new job, so this isn't too much of a concern, but it will be helpful. I wanted to ask those with knowledge and experience in the matter, any constructive advice is appreciated.

 

Edit: TL;DR: how do I restore NTs/brain function from past substance use and psychiatric medication without causing psychosis or other issues?


Edited by tyrosine25I, 10 September 2016 - 10:07 AM.


#2 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 07:46 PM

I also have that "silent hallucination". If I listen to "shhh" sounds like rain or water falling, butter frying, my tinnitus, it begins to sound in an illusory way, like my brain is "misinterpreting sounds," as if someone is mumbling. 

I have noticed that some things worsen this and some things improve it. Some dopaminergics actually IMPROVE this and removes it while dopamine reducing agents tend to worsen it (but not always). Some serotonergics worsen it and some gaba agonists help it. 

I think it might actually be related more to some form of epilepsy because I have a sensitivity to these mentioned sounds, since they can make me dizzy and give me migraine or epilepsy auras (to do with spatial awareness, sizes and distances and spatial relations, etc.) but the psychiatrist I've talked to say that this is all normal for people who are schizotypal or psychotic in general--I bet physical pain is also normal for them but what does that say?

Maybe my experiences are relevant to you? 

 

When I've questioned people on forums entirely unrelated to psychiatry, psychosis etc., they've all said they have the same experiences with these inaudible mumbling illusory "voices" when it rains. Maybe we're all psychotic or maybe the word "psychosis" is being misused.



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#3 tyrosine25I

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:33 PM

While what I'm hearing is not the same, I do relate to your observations (serotonergics worsening, ex: LSD, 25I; GABA-agonists helping, ex: alprazolam, or 2500-3000 mg GABA itself). I think what you are describing is "normal" with the interpreting of sounds, like relating it to hearing conversations or singing while in the shower/rain, and I think it's also natural too, as if the brain is simply just trying to draw connections and associations between sounds. Several people without any history of mental illness have also noted this as well.

With me, in the past two months, it has been full-on, decipherable words, typically what I would have described at first as "hearing my thoughts", but later realized is just negative elements of my superego speaking to me, reinforced from any negative comments that others or authority figures have made in response to my behavior (saying "crazy" if I show ambition/motivation, "freak" if I do something eccentric, a sarcastic "wow" if I do something impressive, or even strings of words like "yeah most people don't like him"). In many cases, they aren't even things people have said, either, just any excuse necessary that my superego can contemplate to try and bring my ego down. Normally, this actually motivates me towards working harder in my studies (such as voices discouraging me recently while studying Chinese, so I "prove it to them" by learning an additional two or three lessons than I intended), and I am always aware that they are hallucinations (so pseudo hallucinatory?), but it can become difficult to differentiate if they are indistinct/peripheral in groups of people.

It seems that for the most part, all dopaminergics I have tried have made it worse, I think a lot of it may been brought on by excess phenylpiracetam believe it or not, but also a combination with the cannabis. Typically I go through this stage when recovering from consistent cannabis use, so this isn't really of any surprise and it normally fades with time, I've just never heard actual voices before. Even high amounts of caffeine (800+ mg) can make this happen, on days where I have < 200 mg usually I don't notice them at all. I would really just describe them as "irritating", not really hurtful or uncomfortable, considering I understand the basis for their origin. But I am interested in perhaps weaker dopaminergics or very weak DA antagonists (that aren't Rx or antipsychotics) in having potentially different responses. A main reason I discontinued very strong DA antagonists like lurasidone (5-HT2A Ki = 2.0 nM), was because of the cognitive clouding made it nearly impossible to comprehend my calculus assignments or think creatively... Not going back to that.

#4 jack black

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:34 PM

When I've questioned people on forums entirely unrelated to psychiatry, psychosis etc., they've all said they have the same experiences with these inaudible mumbling illusory "voices" when it rains. Maybe we're all psychotic or maybe the word "psychosis" is being misused.

 

it's normal to almost "hear" voices when exposed to hissing/humming noise.

 

Same way it's normal for deaf people to become paranoid.



#5 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 08:54 PM

 

When I've questioned people on forums entirely unrelated to psychiatry, psychosis etc., they've all said they have the same experiences with these inaudible mumbling illusory "voices" when it rains. Maybe we're all psychotic or maybe the word "psychosis" is being misused.

 

it's normal to almost "hear" voices when exposed to hissing/humming noise.

 

Same way it's normal for deaf people to become paranoid.

 

According to the psychiatrists I've talked to and the literature I've read, these are "pseudohallucinations," because apparently some people are psychotic because they experience false-psychotic things, some schizophrenics are aware that their hallucinations are not real. Anyway, this is OP's thread and not mine.



#6 Londonscouser

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 06:50 AM

If i was in the OP's situation, I would think more time is needed to evaluate these symptoms properly. I would probably suspend my use of nootropics for a year or two.

 

I would like to know when the auditory hallucinations initially manifested ? Were you still using psychedelics at the time ?

 

Also, when you mentioned 'flashbacks', can you elaborate ?

 

And i do think "How important is microbiome in bipolar/schizophrenia?" is a interesting question to say the least.

 

I think bacopa may 'low-impact' on all the neurotransmitters mentioned..but I don't know if it would be positive



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#7 tyrosine25I

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 08:37 PM

I agree with you, London, I think discontinuing all substances and nootropics and anything would be beneficial, to return my brain back to where it is supposed to function. I think attempting to "jump start" the process with things like Noopept that increase NGF/BDNF might be too harsh on the mind at the current time and might end up with more consequences. Maybe with a "lighter" regimen of vitamins, amino acids, theanine, Curcumin, ... would be a better route. It's difficult to tell which levels are too high and which are too low, but I suspect that they are all out of whack.

The auditory hallucinations first began not more than seven days after I recently discontinued cannabis. I had been smoking a gram or more of high potency daily (likely low CBD too) for the better half of the summer, so this is of no surprise. The only thing that struck me that this is significant is that I've never had auditory hallucinations before, so I definitely saw the importance of discontinuing it so as not to make matters worse. It depends a lot on genetic makeup, true, but from all of my friends that do have mental illness that I have talked to, it doesn't seem like cannabis is benefiting them as much as they would like to admit and is similarly causing them social isolation or what I'd say they have "the delusion of loneliness". I'm definitely not in the group of people that can use it and maintain a functioning life (getting to work was never a problem but no socialization at all, seems very much like mimicking a negative schizophrenic symptom).

The flashbacks started occurring very recently too. I always have them starting after the first few weeks of sobriety, but they seem to be more like 25I in nature than LSD. They just involve small periods of time, usually if I am going on long walks or listening to similar music that I had tripped to, I get a dopamine rush and start having vivid visual memories of things that I had seen from 25I trips. Similar thought patterns arise, the "looping, recursive, out-of-control thinking" where I jump from one idea to another extrapolation in quick succession (in a repeating format), but the most recent one came with a panic attack and anxiety where I started inappropriately laughing and having trouble breathing. This is separate from the likely HPPD, where I see "auras" or visualize geometric structures or energies around me, which are vivid if I pay attention to them or actually want to see them (easy to ignore if I leave them peripheral), but when I'm having a flashback, typically it is profound and cannot be ignored or "shooken off" until it passes (normally 30-120 mins).

It's difficult to describe why/how it feels more like 25I than LSD, other than that they are normally highly visual, fast thinking, even mild synesthesia and more "digital/synthetic" and overwhelming in geometry rather than "artistic/moving" like LSD. Logically, it makes sense that there would be more of an impact, because of excess amount and full-agonism at 5-HT2A compared to just partial agonism.

I think the case is that I really don't have schizophrenia or mental illness at all, but all of these substances in the past have made this presentation and that's why all of the psychiatrists recommended medication, which in turn made a lot of issues worse. There still must be an underlying imbalance that needs repaired, it seems like it would be NMDA, but until all of these other variables can be excluded, I don't feel comfortable using nootropics for a while, despite being convinced that NGF and BDNF are things that could really jump start my recovery.

Edit: and no, the flashbacks started occurring two months or more since my last time using psychedelics. In the past, they also seemed to occur in periods of time where I had either recently stopped frequent cannabis use and was not using psychedelics, or was using high amounts of caffeine combined with nootropics.

Edited by tyrosine25I, 11 September 2016 - 08:40 PM.

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