96 replies to this topic

[Diocletian]

Theoretically, if we use energy from our Universe to create new Universe and then repeat it from new Universe, wouldn't new Universes be smaller and smaller, what do you think?

[Danail Bulgaria]

I don't know. Stphen Hawking named the universe "The ultimate free lunch", meaning, that it came out from the nothing. If that is correct, then there shpuld not be limits in size for making a new universe from the absolutely nothing. Maybe the new universe will be as large as you like.

[shadowhawk]

Stop carying that much for me

If I don't have the luck and I die, I'll die, just like you, and just like everybody. If I have the luck, I will survive enough time until the stem cells transplantable parts come to repair and rejuvenate me.

 

Everything you write is not undefeatable. You like evidences, right. Here is one - the Earth has been hit by large asteroids before, and this hasn't extinguoshed the entire life on the Earth, even without any technologies to save the life. So, there are evidences, that an asteroid impact can't extinguish the entire life on our planet, and the life as general will survive. There are certainly technologies to predict an asteroid impact before it happened, and there are some plans for technologies to destroy the asteroid, or redirect it in another direction.

 

There is no reason for death, that to be undefeatable. This is what you refuse to understand.

 

 

 

 

P.S.

 

I copy-paste my previous response to the life threats, that you pointed, for just in case, if you by any occasion decide to forget them and start writing them again

 

I am not talking about violating of the thermodinamic laws, I simply believe, that people will make a closed thermodynamic system, suitable for living in the next 10¹⁰⁰ years until the heat death of the universe

https://en.wikipedia...of_the_universe

 

There IS at least one ageless specie, and it is the ageless jellyfish.

https://en.wikipedia...itopsis_dohrnii

 

All kinds of death can be defeated. If the ageless jellyfish is being protected from external factors, it can survive unlimited time.

 

For the death of the sun, there are at least one billion years for the human kind to adapt. For example to move to another star system.

http://phys.org/news...lion-years.html

First since evolution is not part of the topic except as it applies to death, no comment.  My views have been hotly debated in the Religious section.  The earth has been hit by asteroids many times and if life existed then it was extinguished.  The entire earth returned to a molten state from the energy release.  Where is your evidence life was on the earth then and secondly that it survived.  However there are many other ways to die.  Plagues disease, starvation, accidents, and a thousand other ways to die beside natural disasters.  If something can die it will.

 

So you believe.  I can't argue with lala with absolutely no evidence.  You don't want to talk about the second law which is as scientifically established as a law can get.  Something else cataclysmic to life will occur far before there is a heat death and at any rate it will be of little consequence to us.  Perhaps our greatest threat is political and ourselves.  As for your hope in a jellyfish, you seem to be ok with your repeating it as an example of immortality.  I think ill have one for dinner.  Wonder how they taste and if I eat one immortality will be passed on to me.  I don't think they are immortal nor is it protected for unlimited time.  The sum will expand and we will all go to hell long before it dies.  Remember how we laughed at the idea of hell.  Do jellyfish go to hell?  Are you going to take them with you as you escape global warming.  If not the immortal jellyfish is going to die.  At the speed of light you in your lifetime could not get to a star with a livable planet,  The fact is the entire cosmos is expanding in all directions at incredible speeds.  What makes you think you can catch a star?  I know, I said that everything that is only physical dies.  No.  Give me reasons but don't repeat your arguments.

 

[Castiel]

Immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.  What can't live forever dies.  The immortal jelly fish can and does die and while longlived is not immortal just as I have said all along to anyone listening.  We have repeatedly, can presently and probably will be hit by an asteroid which like past asteroids will cause an extinction event long before the Sun sends everyone and everything to hell. This will occur long before the sun burns out.  Jellyfish can and will die.  But then the obvious, you aren't a jellyfish.   You are a human and right now only a very small percent live over 110.  If you are a skinny small woman perhaps you will make it before the worm..  You scarcely have enough time to make it to the nearest star which holds no hope.  So you are going to stop evolution.  Evolution requires death so the species can evolve and survive.  You seem to believe you can stop that

Over short time scales deviations from second law can occur, iirc.  Over longer time scales they likely can occur too, just less likely.

 

Time crystals are still a possibility, so long as protons don't decay a way of building physical cyclical perpetual systems may be possible.

 

Eternal black holes are a possibility.

 

Controlled collapse of the universe is another possibility.

 

Control of the very laws of physics is another possibility.

 

The science of mind design can eventually call forth any mind from any possible world, including instantiation of minds of a divine nature.   To believe no being can solve the problem of survival.  That the final science will fail, pessimistic that is.

[Castiel]

P.S. 2

 

Thanks to other posts, I reached to the conclusion, that there are no direct evidences for the existence of the human evolution today.

 

I suppose, that it has stopped when a certain technological threshold has been passed, after which there is no need for evolving in order to battle with beasts and to find food, e.g., I suppose, that the human evolution has stopped quite a long time ago because of absence of evolution preassure. The more the technological progress advances, the less preasure there will be. We didn't evolve larger ears, we invented telephone. And thanks to the telephone invention, we will never evolve large ears.

 

Humans are gaining control over the ability to edit genes, the very code of life.    The equivalent of a billion generations will occur within short order.  

 

You may believe that a book filled with typos and torn pages, is made nonhuman, by fixing the typos and restoring the pages.  But that is not the case.   Humanity's mastery over the nature of  reality itself will yield the apotheosis of the race, as man transcends the barrier back into the garden as the the angel and the flaming sword let him in to consume of the tree of eternal life, fulfilling his foretold ascent to godhood.
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

First since evolution is not part of the topic except as it applies to death, no comment.  My views have been hotly debated in the Religious section.  The earth has been hit by asteroids many times and if life existed then it was extinguished.  The entire earth returned to a molten state from the energy release.  Where is your evidence life was on the earth then and secondly that it survived.  However there are many other ways to die.  Plagues disease, starvation, accidents, and a thousand other ways to die beside natural disasters. If something can die it will.

 

 

So you believe.  I can't argue with lala with absolutely no evidence.  You don't want to talk about the second law which is as scientifically established as a law can get.  Something else cataclysmic to life will occur far before there is a heat death and at any rate it will be of little consequence to us.  Perhaps our greatest threat is political and ourselves.  As for your hope in a jellyfish, you seem to be ok with your repeating it as an example of immortality.  I think ill have one for dinner.  Wonder how they taste and if I eat one immortality will be passed on to me.  I don't think they are immortal nor is it protected for unlimited time.  The sum will expand and we will all go to hell long before it dies.  Remember how we laughed at the idea of hell.  Do jellyfish go to hell?  Are you going to take them with you as you escape global warming.  If not the immortal jellyfish is going to die.  At the speed of light you in your lifetime could not get to a star with a livable planet,  The fact is the entire cosmos is expanding in all directions at incredible speeds.  What makes you think you can catch a star?  I know, I said that everything that is only physical dies.  No.  Give me reasons but don't repeat your arguments.

 

 

Fine, the evolution is not directly connected with the topic, but nevertheless, you started writting about it lol.

 

I know about only one large asteroid that has hit the Earth, and that is the reason for the extinction of the dinosaurs. Many life forms has been extinguished then, correect, but the very fact we are here means, that not absolutely everything has died.

 

I don't know the asteroid, that has molted the entire earth. If the life has been existing then, I suppose, that the only survivours has been the extremofils. The bacterias, that today live in the volcanos, directly on the molten lava, and which require at least 200 degrees celsius in order to divide. They may have restarted the evolution.

 

 

You want me not to repeat myself over and over.

The main thing I am repeating you over and over is that there is NO udefeatable reason for death. I am repeating it because you keep listing new ways to die. 

The last are plagues, disease, starvation, accidents, "and a thousand other ways to die beside natural disasters".

And there is always something that can be done about that. No undefeatable reason to die. Plaques and diseases are treatable from the medicine, new plaques and diseases will be treatable in the medicine of the future, starvation is defeatable, otherwise I would not be overweight, accidents are preventable, for example I cross the street on a green light. Thousands the ways to die are, and millions the ways not to die are. This is our task - to defeat the reasons of death one by one. To find at least one of the many ways to defeat each one reason, and do it. The most urgent is the aging. Politics and us, if you mean a global nuclear war also is an example. It is entirely a choice of the human kind.

 The sum will expand and we will all go to hell, or the sun will expand and we go to a more distant planet, or the sun will expand and we all start living in a futuristic citties directly in the open cosmos. The human kind has enough time to make a choice. It is only about the choice of the human kind. It may extinguish, or it may survive or it may florish.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

On page 196 of his 1997 book, Before the Beginning, Martin Rees wrote, "But eventually the atoms will themselves decay: if the baryons of which they are made were absolutely immutable (as we believe the amount of electric charge in our universe is), the excess of matter over antimatter could never have emerged in the ultraearly universe. The eventual decay of protons restores the symmetry between matter and antimatter with which our universe began." The longest half life for protons projected by Ed Kearns of Boston University in his 2009 article, "Grand Unified Theories & Proton Decay," is 10^39 years.

[shadowhawk]

Evolution's  mechanism creates new information by mutation of existing information which is passed on through procreation.  Old information is thereby not passed on.  At any rate death is necessary for biological progress.  Whether you can create new information that way which explains life as we now witness it is another topic.  There have been many asteroid bombardments of the earth as they teach in astronomy 101..  To repeat myself death has not been defeated and nothing I have said is new.  It is 100%, As I said I can't argue against science fiction and lala.  This all has no practical use for you as many many ways to die exist.  Try to wish them all away.  Yes be very careful walking across the street but the death stats show that even if you lived a short 200 years, your chance of dying reaches almost 100%.  It will happen to you in the relative short term and in the long term everything purely physical dies.

[shadowhawk]

 

Immortality is eternal life, the ability to live forever.  What can't live forever dies.  The immortal jelly fish can and does die and while longlived is not immortal just as I have said all along to anyone listening.  We have repeatedly, can presently and probably will be hit by an asteroid which like past asteroids will cause an extinction event long before the Sun sends everyone and everything to hell. This will occur long before the sun burns out.  Jellyfish can and will die.  But then the obvious, you aren't a jellyfish.   You are a human and right now only a very small percent live over 110.  If you are a skinny small woman perhaps you will make it before the worm..  You scarcely have enough time to make it to the nearest star which holds no hope.  So you are going to stop evolution.  Evolution requires death so the species can evolve and survive.  You seem to believe you can stop that

Over short time scales deviations from second law can occur, iirc.  Over longer time scales they likely can occur too, just less likely.

 

Time crystals are still a possibility, so long as protons don't decay a way of building physical cyclical perpetual systems may be possible.

 

Eternal black holes are a possibility.

 

Controlled collapse of the universe is another possibility.

 

Control of the very laws of physics is another possibility.

 

The science of mind design can eventually call forth any mind from any possible world, including instantiation of minds of a divine nature.   To believe no being can solve the problem of survival.  That the final science will fail, pessimistic that is.

 

 

Wish you well.  Good luck.  I suppose anyone who wonders with doubt is not a scientist.  Could an atheist believe this?
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

 

On page 196 of his 1997 book, Before the Beginning, Martin Rees wrote, "But eventually the atoms will themselves decay: if the baryons of which they are made were absolutely immutable (as we believe the amount of electric charge in our universe is), the excess of matter over antimatter could never have emerged in the ultraearly universe. The eventual decay of protons restores the symmetry between matter and antimatter with which our universe began." The longest half life for protons projected by Ed Kearns of Boston University in his 2009 article, "Grand Unified Theories & Proton Decay," is 10^39 years.

 

Interesting information. Yet, if the half life of the photon is 10^39 years, then the entire life of the photon is 2x10^39 years. That gives enough time for the human kind to adapt. 

 

 

 

 

Humans are gaining control over the ability to edit genes, the very code of life.    The equivalent of a billion generations will occur within short order.  

 

You may believe that a book filled with typos and torn pages, is made nonhuman, by fixing the typos and restoring the pages.  But that is not the case.   Humanity's mastery over the nature of  reality itself will yield the apotheosis of the race, as man transcends the barrier back into the garden as the the angel and the flaming sword let him in to consume of the tree of eternal life, fulfilling his foretold ascent to godhood.
 

 

 

Evolution's  mechanism creates new information by mutation of existing information which is passed on through procreation.  Old information is thereby not passed on.  At any rate death is necessary for biological progress.  Whether you can create new information that way which explains life as we now witness it is another topic.  There have been many asteroid bombardments of the earth as they teach in astronomy 101..  To repeat myself death has not been defeated and nothing I have said is new.  It is 100%, As I said I can't argue against science fiction and lala.  This all has no practical use for you as many many ways to die exist.  Try to wish them all away.  Yes be very careful walking across the street but the death stats show that even if you lived a short 200 years, your chance of dying reaches almost 100%.  It will happen to you in the relative short term and in the long term everything purely physical dies.

 

The human beings are the only biological kind, that can preserve its genetic essence and shield itsef from the evolution thanks to the ability to do brain work.

 

As I wrote you abouve we haven't eveolved a new better hearing, or a louder shouting, but we invented the telephone. And therefore we will never evolve neither new hearing, nor a better hearing.

 

The evolutionary preassure is not present. No need to eveolve = no evolutionary preassure = no evolution = the human kind has the cjoice or the option to preserve itself as it was. 

 

You may admire that ability to shield ourselves and choose to keep being a human beeing. You may be able to choose (in the future) to alter your DNA and no longer be a human being. But that is only a choice of yours. 

 

 

Different reasons of death has been defeated, ofcourse. For example, the stone age people have been dying from starvation and wild animals attacks. That reasonss of death are no longer valid for a modern society. 

 

[shadowhawk]

Nothing concerning the mechanism of evolution has changed.  It is still here if true.  We haven't stopped it.  But I do not want to get off track where this off topic.  So as proof of concept alter your DNA and choose to not be human.  I say you can't with rare exception.  This is lala talk and fiction of no consequence to you.  I certainly am not against advancing medicine but we are living at a time when human life expectancy  is decreasing.  That is not a choice.  There are many issues, one of them our ability to support a world without death.  There is no modern society that survive indefinitely without death.  We certainly are far from that.  LaLa talk.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I still believe, that the human evolution is no longer valid for the people:

 

When you compare drawings and statues of people, who lived thousands of years ago, have you asked yourself what is their differences with us? What has evolved in us for these thousands of years? I did some time ago, compared paintings and statues with modern people, and the answer is nothing. The human kind hasn't evolved in the last 5-6 thousands of years.

 

Do you know about Otzi? The ice man, who was discovered in the ice preserved for thousands of years? When they reconstructed him, he looks like a completely usual man. He even has the such called MOERN diseases, such as atherosclerosis. What have we evolved more than him for some more than 3000 years?

 

If you take a DNA string from a human, living a thousand years ago, in one of your hand, and a modern human DNA of the same position string in your other hand, would you be able to say which one is the older, based only on its evolutionary changes? The big answer is no.

 

 

 

The concept to alter your DNA and choose to not be human in order to be a more perfect posthuman being is the dream of many people, and this is why it may happen some day in the future. And I simply want to warn these people in which path they are going. After that it is still their choice, e.g. if they really want it that much there is no problem. My choice at least in that moment is to remain an alive human being.

 

 

 

 

 

Human life expectancy is decreasing? Tell me more.

[shadowhawk]

Evolution moves very slowly.   Modern man has been around a short time for biological evolution of any kind to take p;lace.  The ice man is to young.  You are not going to be able not to be human.  Middle age is increasing through advances in medicine but old age  still has about the same death rate  Top age seems to be around 120 but that is for a very, very small percent.  It has not changed.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

 

 

 

 

Interesting information. Yet, if the half life of the photon is 10^39 years, then the entire life of the photon is 2x10^39 years. That gives enough time for the human kind to adapt. 

 

 

 

There might be more time than that, because only half of the protons in the universe would decay after 10^39 years. In 2*10^39 years, a quarter of the protons would still be left. In 3*10^39 years, an eighth of the protons would be left. However, 10^39 years is the longest projection for proton half life. The shortest projection in the article was 10^28 years. In any case, thermodynamics would be the biggest challenge for survival long before proton decay.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Evolution moves very slowly. Modern man has been around a short time for biological evolution of any kind to take p;lace. The ice man is to young. You are not going to be able not to be human. Middle age is increasing through advances in medicine but old age still has about the same death rate Top age seems to be around 120 but that is for a very, very small percent. It has not changed.

 

Slowly or not, the evolution shoud have left some, even minor traces in the evolving human DNA, that at least to point into the direction the DNA is evolving. And such traces ... are not preasent in brief.

 

The old age is not defeated yet, and that is why my hope for stem cells - the aging to be defeated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting information. Yet, if the half life of the photon is 10^39 years, then the entire life of the photon is 2x10^39 years. That gives enough time for the human kind to adapt. 

 

There might be more time than that, because only half of the protons in the universe would decay after 10^39 years. In 2*10^39 years, a quarter of the protons would still be left. In 3*10^39 years, an eighth of the protons would be left. However, 10^39 years is the longest projection for proton half life. The shortest projection in the article was 10^28 years. In any case, thermodynamics would be the biggest challenge for survival long before proton decay.

 

 

Who knows? Some day your very distant future offspring will find the solution. We can only imagine, or like shadowhawk says we can only lalala at the moment. Maybe in the future they will find a way to repair the protons, or to make new ones, or they may invent a way,that we can't even imagine.

[Diocletian]

http://discovermagaz...end-of-universe

 

Scientist Michio Kaku says that possibly only way for humanity to survive heat death would be to send nanobots that are size of molecule to another parallel universe through wormhole.

Problem is that those nanobots would only create copy of humans when they reach new universe.

 

It looks like only way for humans to travel to another paralel universe would be if they could upload their brain to nanobot, but question is would that be possible or nanobots are too small for human brain.

Edited by Diocletian, 26 September 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

If so, then he does not have enough imagination. There are more options. Read my above posts.

 

 

 

Uploading your brain is not a survival option. Brain uploading makes only a model of your brainwork. Even if you upload it to nanobot, you will upload only the model of your brain. You, and your brain will be destroyed.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting information. Yet, if the half life of the photon is 10^39 years, then the entire life of the photon is 2x10^39 years. That gives enough time for the human kind to adapt. 

 

 

 

There might be more time than that, because only half of the protons in the universe would decay after 10^39 years. In 2*10^39 years, a quarter of the protons would still be left. In 3*10^39 years, an eighth of the protons would be left. However, 10^39 years is the longest projection for proton half life. The shortest projection in the article was 10^28 years. In any case, thermodynamics would be the biggest challenge for survival long before proton decay.

 

Everything only physical dies.  Yes.  But we will be dead looooooooo9ng before that.

[shadowhawk]

If so, then he does not have enough imagination. There are more options. Read my above posts.

 

 

 

Uploading your brain is not a survival option. Brain uploading makes only a model of your brainwork. Even if you upload it to nanobot, you will upload only the model of your brain. You, and your brain will be destroyed.

 

You have given no serious options to the tens of thousands ways you can and will die if you are only physical.  Imagination without substance is meaningless.  Yes read the posts and search for anything realistic. 
 

[shadowhawk]

Imagination can have some substance in reality or it is just lala.  I can imagine anything but that does not make it real.  I highly recommend "THE MATTER MYTH" by Paul Davies that will raise many questions as to the nature of what is physical.

Edited by shadowhawk, 26 September 2016 - 07:58 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Constructing a closed thermodynamic system with no energy loss is much more real than wormholing nanobots in a paralel universe, if this is what you mean in your posts.

[shadowhawk]

We already have one.  No loss of energy, just loss of usable energy.  Death.  Everything purely physical dies.

[Castiel]

A system that eventually reconstitutes itself and cycles between different states does not die.   Information is neither created nor destroyed, and the foundation of physical reality is information by nature, thus indestructible only changing, ever changing. Matter and energy are both physical and transition from one to the other, recreating all possible patterns, including all conscious observers.  That change is a constant is true, but that repetition can and will occur is also true, once a 'physical', and informational state, repeats all is restored as was and will be.

 

 

Information is not created nor destroyed. The number of possible patterns of reasonable size is a finite pool, even unintelligent algorithms can sample it all, generating all the content past present future real or imaginary of all possible worlds. Even if you allow for infinity, it will only result in regurgitation of undigested chunks of this pool, whole books copied word for word, whole scenes copied detail for detail, etc will be merely put in a different order and called brand new.

 

The view of the block time universe, suggests that all moments are eternal and atemporal nothing begins to exist and nothing ceases to exist.  You are in many places at once, both experiencing yesterday and tomorrow, but due to memory constraints do not realize this and gain the illusion of living in the present.

[Danail Bulgaria]

We already have one.  No loss of energy, just loss of usable energy.  Death.  Everything purely physical dies.

 

No. We don't have a cloded thermodynamic system. We live on a planet, that is an open system, and constantly receives energy from the sun and constantly emits energy in the cosmos in the infra-red spectrum. The human kind has never had an absolutely closed thermodynamic system to live in. Its construction is the vital solution for the human kind in the future.

[shadowhawk]

Where do you get the energu to reconstitute and recycle if dead?  Magic lala talk.  Information comes from something but it can and is being mutated and corrupted so it is no longer meaningful.  Do you think information is physical?

Nothing begins or ends.  You have tried to rescue yourself with an argument of a theory of time.  We live in a four dimensional reality.  Time being one of them.  At one point you were one minute old.  NO.  How old are you now?  Apparently this is where your hope is.  Nothing is destroyed and we and all our ancestors are beyond beginnings.  How did you get here and when are you leaving?  It doesn’t matter we have a theory of time.  I doubt this will satisfy few who think death occures and that much of current science is right.  We don’t have a thermodynamic or coded system otherwise this closed system we are living in might be real..  The power of runaway imagination.

[shadowhawk]

The cosmos is a closed system governed by natural law.  Everything purely physical dies.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I don't know if the cosmos is a closed thermodynamic system, or not. And in what sense it is closed. Its energy and matter is not lost, but is being dispersed infinitely.

 

People from the future would need a different type of a closed thermodynamic system - much smaller closed thermodynamic system, that constantly recycles matter and energy without letting energy to escape.

 

Information is not physical, but the carriers of the information are physical.

 

And my argument is not what you name "argument of a theory of time".

No matter if time exists or not, the human kind simply has enough time to adapt and defeat all challenges.

 

[shadowhawk]

Well if you believe the cosmos has a beginning and is not infinitely old there is a yesterday and tomorrow then things end.  The cosmos ends not in annihilation but a heat death where no real work is possible.  Now I know there are theories that there is still activity on some level which requires some energy but the cosmos is expanding at almost the speed of light.  No new energy is coming in.  The system is closed and the second law is at work on everything.  How are you going to create a new closed system?  Information language, logic, mathematics, intelligence and similar abstract objects are not physical.  Are they real though not physical.  How about consciousness?  Is everything that exists physical.  How about life?  Physical things die.  Do abstract objects die?

[Castiel]

Given the possibility of the multiverse with alternate laws of physics elsewhere, either local reality's laws can be altered, or some region exhibiting perpetual function due to different laws can preserve access to all information indefinitely, effectively granting eternal life to all lifeforms.

 

As for the energy to reconstitute, again, it is said that out of the vacuum came the universe once, and it can do so again, the idea of Boltzmann brains popping out of the vacuum has already been considered.  In fact we may even be some kind of Boltzmann brain colony in a simulation.

 

You have to postulate that time itself will end, and that it won't restart again, to end the physical world which includes energy.

[Danail Bulgaria]

... The cosmos ends ... a heat death where no real work is possible.  ... the cosmos is expanding at almost the speed of light.  No new energy is coming in.  The system is closed and the second law is at work on everything.  How are you going to create a new closed system?  Information language, logic, mathematics, intelligence and similar abstract objects are not physical.  Are they real though not physical.  How about consciousness?  Is everything that exists physical.  How about life?  Physical things die.  Do abstract objects die?

 

The creation of aa basolutely closed thermodynamic system is left to the people of the very distant future. Only they will know how they will construct it. They may need some existing today scineces - biology, chemistry, physics.

 

As a first step perhaps they will succeed in making a closed biological system suitable for living unlimited time inside.

https://en.wikipedia...ological_system