36 replies to this topic

[fluidity]

I had previously megadosed malic acid with the hopes that it would help chelate aluminum and I was believe this to be an experiment worth doing for the sake of testing out malic acid benefits. I took two tablespoons of it, dissolved it in a cup of water and then drank about half to three quarters of the mixture. At first I noticed how nice the increase in verbal fluency was when I used it however that's when things got bad.  

 

Unbeknownst to me, I had actually begun experiencing excitotoxicity symptoms the next few days after that experiment. I felt it into my frontal lobe the most where there was a dull pain/sensation and when I was in class I was baffled at how my working memory had deteriorated greatly. 

 

I also experienced mild acidosis where my body felt like it was in a burned up state, however this subsided the next two days since I was keen on drinking a bunch of drinks like gatorade to replenish electrolytes.So far the worst symptoms have been this delibitating excitotoxicity symptoms where I mentally feel dull and mentally burned out. I also noticed changes in vision where it's as if my field of vision is split into two between my two lobes. My right frontal lobes seems to be giving a dull sensation which like I said is related to the change in vision.

 

I'd like to ask others on the forum here who have dealt with similar symptoms, what has helped you recover, and when you did you you recover completely?

[thedevinroy]

Magnesium is the ion you should be concerned in restoring.

[jack black]

not familiar with this substance.

i googled and saw this on amazon reviews:

 

 

I bought this product to use for the liver flush, to save myself having to juice green apples in the morning.

I didn't take the full 1tsp a day, but noticed a tiny bit of blood in my urine (didn't think much of it). But on the morning of the flush I did drink the whole teaspoon amount within a few hours. I got a massive headache that grew throughout the day, got nauseous/vomited after the first drink of epsom salt and had to cancel the flush. The nausea/headache finally went away around midnight. The morning after, blood in urine.

So I was wondering why a similar amount from apples wouldn't have these effects, and it turns out synthesized malic acid is a 50/50 mix of the two enantiomers (D-malic acid and L-malic acid). In fruit, the only form found is L-malic acid. Not sure how our bodies process the two types, but seems safer to err on the side of what's natural.

That being said there is nothing wrong with this brand, it just is what it is. I will go through the effort of juicing apples in the morning from now on.

Update: I was able to find a 1967 WHO study that addressed the toxicity of DL-malic acid versus L-malic acid [...] and it does appear that D-malic acid causes renal damage, which explains the blood in the urine. Dropping review from three stars down to one, this is probably not fit for consumption. They do sell natural L-malic acid (derived straight from fruit), which would avoid the renal damage issue.

 

[Flex]

Assuming You had a considerable ammount of heavy metals, a random chelator can be actually bad !

It has something to do with chemistry ( atomic oribtals & co).

 

Anyway in short: a chelator like ALA (alpha lipoic acid) attaches the metal but is too weak (or something), so it looses it on the way out of the body and redistributes it on another place.

Because the properties of the Elements differ, one Element could or would behave differently to the same chelate.

[ I guess exept the clinical ones, which should be safe like DMPS (afaik avoid DMPA), EDTA(i.v. b/c oral doesnt do shit) Ca-DTPA, Zn-DTPA]

 

1) get flushed out 2) get redistributed within Your body (and Brain!) and maybe flushed to a certain extend 3) does nothing.

 

So You might go to a Doc and in the case the Doc is useless: do a multi-metal testing on Your own. its roughly 200 Euro in Germany and a single one is between 30-60 Euro depending on the material (hair, urine)

I have or had 9.9 mug/ml(?) instead of 0.2 so a 50 fold elevation.

 

Here are some suggestions that I´ve tried for my Gadolinium toxicity and all of them have evidently chelating properties but are mostly weak chelators i.e. redistributors:

- N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC)

- Not Malic Acid but premium/fresh turbid(unfiltered) Apple juice ( with the polyphenols & stuff) which is popular here in Germany. I guess You could find some in Organic stores

- garlic but it should have the same effect like NAC b/c of the sulflur molecules or what ever

- same goes supposedly for Broccoli / sulforaphane

- EGCG from green tea

- (actually fresh) Coriander aka Cilantro but the powder had also some effects for me

- ALA

- Oat at least for Lead

- other metals like selenium(at least in the case of mercury) and Zinc. Just an idea but could be that one metal flushes the other metal out like Zinc -> copper.

- didnt read a study about it but Coffee had some effects

 

from those ONLY the the turbid apple juice and green tea (and the combination) helped me but as said its a different metal. the other just redistributed that stuff in my case.

Try to allways find some references for e.g. the chelating effects of Chollera on ncbi or google scholar. could be that this is just a claim!

there are more herbs/compounds that have chelating propereties. I will post them in the next time if You like.

 

Edit:

 

You may notice evetually that all clinical chelators arent lipophylic i.e. dont cross the BBB which is sub-optimal. Your brain is beeing indirectly detoxified by a (lets call it just) osmotic like mechanism.

my idea would be to use a weak, OTC but lipophylic chelator in combination to a clinical one. HOWEVER talk with Your Doc about his idea ! could be actually a catrastophal and harmful result.

Some papers considered of a combination therapy of clinical chelators In the case Your poisioning is hard to treat.

 

Btw: the "offlabel" chelator for my Gadolinium condition was Zn-DTPA(Heyl company) and it helped me to a very good extend, with actually no side-effects.However 5 vials cost 60 Euro.

----

Next case please

Edited by Flex, 01 October 2016 - 07:11 PM.

[gamesguru]

Some good suggestions made already. Mg, NAC, EGCG. I like it, I like it.

 

Regrettably the brain cannot excrete aluminum, so it accumulates there unchecked, until death.  Average uptake is on the order of 1mg in 36 years.  But it still couldn't hurt to become more mindful of dietary source and to moderate them.  Might also want to go the route of enhancing glial function, the immune cells and vacuoles are where aluminum is sequestered and deposited.  Once they become saturated, it leaks out.

 

I would take a holistic approach.  Ginkgo restores "BDNF expression in four brain regions: prefrontal cortex (PFC), striatum (ST), substantia nigra (SNR), and globus pallidus (GP)."  It also increases dopamine and glutamate in the PFC, combine that with something like bacopa (which boosts prefrontal serotonin).  That's one strategy at least, because having adequate neurotransmitter levels helps the cells' natural healing abilities.  Stuff like turmeric and ginseng is likely to help as well.

[Flex]

Ginkgo is a good point as well as other Adaptogens and as You´ve said polypheols. I´ve taken them to reduce oxidative damage. Ginko and maybe Ginseng have chelating properties if I´m not mistaken.

[fluidity]

Assuming You had a considerable ammount of heavy metals, a random chelator can be actually bad !

It has something to do with chemistry ( atomic oribtals & co).

 

Anyway in short: a chelator like ALA (alpha lipoic acid) attaches the metal but is too weak (or something), so it looses it on the way out of the body and redistributes it on another place.

Because the properties of the Elements differ, one Element could or would behave differently to the same chelate.

[ I guess exept the clinical ones, which should be safe like DMPS (afaik avoid DMPA), EDTA(i.v. b/c oral doesnt do shit) Ca-DTPA, Zn-DTPA]

 

1) get flushed out 2) get redistributed within Your body (and Brain!) and maybe flushed to a certain extend 3) does nothing.

 

So You might go to a Doc and in the case the Doc is useless: do a multi-metal testing on Your own. its roughly 200 Euro in Germany and a single one is between 30-60 Euro depending on the material (hair, urine)

I have or had 9.9 mug/ml(?) instead of 0.2 so a 50 fold elevation.

 

Here are some suggestions that I´ve tried for my Gadolinium toxicity and all of them have evidently chelating properties but are mostly weak chelators i.e. redistributors:

- N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC)

- Not Malic Acid but premium/fresh turbid(unfiltered) Apple juice ( with the polyphenols & stuff) which is popular here in Germany. I guess You could find some in Organic stores

- garlic but it should have the same effect like NAC b/c of the sulflur molecules or what ever

- same goes supposedly for Broccoli / sulforaphane

- EGCG from green tea

- (actually fresh) Coriander aka Cilantro but the powder had also some effects for me

- ALA

- Oat at least for Lead

- other metals like selenium(at least in the case of mercury) and Zinc. Just an idea but could be that one metal flushes the other metal out like Zinc -> copper.

- didnt read a study about it but Coffee had some effects

 

from those ONLY the the turbid apple juice and green tea (and the combination) helped me but as said its a different metal. the other just redistributed that stuff in my case.

Try to allways find some references for e.g. the chelating effects of Chollera on ncbi or google scholar. could be that this is just a claim!

there are more herbs/compounds that have chelating propereties. I will post them in the next time if You like.

 

Edit:

 

You may notice evetually that all clinical chelators arent lipophylic i.e. dont cross the BBB which is sub-optimal. Your brain is beeing indirectly detoxified by a (lets call it just) osmotic like mechanism.

my idea would be to use a weak, OTC but lipophylic chelator in combination to a clinical one. HOWEVER talk with Your Doc about his idea ! could be actually a catrastophal and harmful result.

Some papers considered of a combination therapy of clinical chelators In the case Your poisioning is hard to treat.

 

Btw: the "offlabel" chelator for my Gadolinium condition was Zn-DTPA(Heyl company) and it helped me to a very good extend, with actually no side-effects.However 5 vials cost 60 Euro.

----

Next case please

Thanks so much for the write up. The main chelators I'm using would be succinic acid, malic acid, EGCG, Quercetin, selenium, and iodine.

 

I've heard of iodine being touted for its chelation abilties in the context of removing lead, cadmium, and mercury. I also got some really bad die off in my gut when I used it. 

 

EGCG extract certainly did something to me, however it wasn't positive. I became insanely depressed on it and mood bascially fell off completely. It never did this to me a year ago where I noticed cognition enhancing effects. Something has drastically changed in my body for it to be responding to EGCG like this. I'm guessing it to be either metals from my amalgam or the supplements I've taken(spirulina I took was high in aluminum)

Edited by fluidity, 02 October 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[gamesguru]

As flex explained those chelators are weak, some of them also barely make it to the brain. The won't take your aluminum far from the vacuoule, discarding it in a nearby nerve or blood vessel where it can do more damage.

You should take (brain) metabolism promoting supps to accelerate the vacuoulization. Then just keep on with the holistic approach. Check out my two recent threads, one on regenerating axons, other on sod and gsh. Both expose some of the very best natural noots for healing brain injury. Something like one daily portiom broccoli, garlic, blueberry is already a tremendous start. The ginseng and ginkgo are amazing in this context of regrowth, even if you strip them of their chelating properties.

[normalizing]

 

Assuming You had a considerable ammount of heavy metals, a random chelator can be actually bad !

It has something to do with chemistry ( atomic oribtals & co).

 

Anyway in short: a chelator like ALA (alpha lipoic acid) attaches the metal but is too weak (or something), so it looses it on the way out of the body and redistributes it on another place.

Because the properties of the Elements differ, one Element could or would behave differently to the same chelate.

[ I guess exept the clinical ones, which should be safe like DMPS (afaik avoid DMPA), EDTA(i.v. b/c oral doesnt do shit) Ca-DTPA, Zn-DTPA]

 

1) get flushed out 2) get redistributed within Your body (and Brain!) and maybe flushed to a certain extend 3) does nothing.

 

So You might go to a Doc and in the case the Doc is useless: do a multi-metal testing on Your own. its roughly 200 Euro in Germany and a single one is between 30-60 Euro depending on the material (hair, urine)

I have or had 9.9 mug/ml(?) instead of 0.2 so a 50 fold elevation.

 

Here are some suggestions that I´ve tried for my Gadolinium toxicity and all of them have evidently chelating properties but are mostly weak chelators i.e. redistributors:

- N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC)

- Not Malic Acid but premium/fresh turbid(unfiltered) Apple juice ( with the polyphenols & stuff) which is popular here in Germany. I guess You could find some in Organic stores

- garlic but it should have the same effect like NAC b/c of the sulflur molecules or what ever

- same goes supposedly for Broccoli / sulforaphane

- EGCG from green tea

- (actually fresh) Coriander aka Cilantro but the powder had also some effects for me

- ALA

- Oat at least for Lead

- other metals like selenium(at least in the case of mercury) and Zinc. Just an idea but could be that one metal flushes the other metal out like Zinc -> copper.

- didnt read a study about it but Coffee had some effects

 

from those ONLY the the turbid apple juice and green tea (and the combination) helped me but as said its a different metal. the other just redistributed that stuff in my case.

Try to allways find some references for e.g. the chelating effects of Chollera on ncbi or google scholar. could be that this is just a claim!

there are more herbs/compounds that have chelating propereties. I will post them in the next time if You like.

 

Edit:

 

You may notice evetually that all clinical chelators arent lipophylic i.e. dont cross the BBB which is sub-optimal. Your brain is beeing indirectly detoxified by a (lets call it just) osmotic like mechanism.

my idea would be to use a weak, OTC but lipophylic chelator in combination to a clinical one. HOWEVER talk with Your Doc about his idea ! could be actually a catrastophal and harmful result.

Some papers considered of a combination therapy of clinical chelators In the case Your poisioning is hard to treat.

 

Btw: the "offlabel" chelator for my Gadolinium condition was Zn-DTPA(Heyl company) and it helped me to a very good extend, with actually no side-effects.However 5 vials cost 60 Euro.

----

Next case please

Thanks so much for the write up. The main chelators I'm using would be succinic acid, malic acid, EGCG, Quercetin, selenium, and iodine.

 

I've heard of iodine being touted for its chelation abilties in the context of removing lead, cadmium, and mercury. I also got some really bad die off in my gut when I used it. 

 

EGCG extract certainly did something to me, however it wasn't positive. I became insanely depressed on it and mood bascially fell off completely. It never did this to me a year ago where I noticed cognition enhancing effects. Something has drastically changed in my body for it to be responding to EGCG like this. I'm guessing it to be either metals from my amalgam or the supplements I've taken(spirulina I took was high in aluminum)

 

 

 

EGCG and caffeine or generally green tea is the worst shit to consume when you are in excitotoxic state. ive had the worst nightmares on those. i cannot stress enough how people should avoid such thing at excitotoxic state!!! any stimulation at all, anything, herbs or pharms that stimulate should be avoided. i understand chamomile tea is a kid's toy, but its just one of the very few safe homopathic meds out there as there isnt much choice. its definately much safer and better than to drink green or any tea or coffee or energy drinks if you think you are in excitotoxic state

 

Edited by normalizing, 02 October 2016 - 09:59 PM.

[gamesguru]

green tea is the worst shit to consume when you are in excitotoxic state

 

 

do you even fact-check yourself norm? do you even nootrilize or nootrify? cheers to chamomile tho

i've had the worst nightmares on ginseng. i've had the worst nightmares on huperzine. i've had the worst nightmares on tap water. Not grounds for calling them the "worst shit to consume," in the context of excitotoxicity.. a red flag at best

Eur J Paediatr Neurol. 2001;5(4):161-5.

Caffeine does not affect excitotoxic brain lesions in newborn mice.

Bahi N¹, Nehlig A, Evrard P, Gressens P.

 

Abstract

Caffeine is frequently administered to human pre-term newborns although its neurological impact has not been fully evaluated. In the present study performed in mice, we examined the effects of caffeine administration on neonatal excitotoxic lesions of the periventricular white matter, which mimics several aspects of human periventricular leukomalacia. In this model, caffeine exposure did not worsen white matter lesions. These data suggest that neonatal caffeine administration might not affect clastic lesions in pre-term infants.

 

Nutr J. 2015; 15: 60.

Potential neuroprotective properties of epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG)

Neha Atulkumar Singh, Abul Kalam Azad Mandal, and Zaved Ahmed Khan

 

Abstract

Neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease (AD) and Parkinson’s disease (PD) enforce an overwhelming social and economic burden on society. They are primarily characterized through the accumulation of modified proteins, which further trigger biological responses such as inflammation, oxidative stress, excitotoxicity and modulation of signalling pathways. In a hope for cure, these diseases have been studied extensively over the last decade to successfully develop symptom-oriented therapies. However, so far no definite cure has been found. Therefore, there is a need to identify a class of drug capable of reversing neural damage and preventing further neural death. This review therefore assesses the reliability of the neuroprotective benefits of epigallocatechin-gallate (EGCG) by shedding light on their biological, pharmacological, antioxidant and metal chelation properties, with emphasis on their ability to invoke a range of cellular mechanisms in the brain. It also discusses the possible use of nanotechnology to enhance the neuroprotective benefits of EGCG.

 

J Neurosci Res. 2004 Sep 15;77(6):892-900.

Protective effect of green tea polyphenol EGCG against neuronal damage and brain edema after unilateral cerebral ischemia in gerbils.

Lee H¹, Bae JH, Lee SR.

Author information

Abstract

Previous studies have demonstrated that a green tea polyphenol, (-)-epigallocatechine gallate (EGCG), has a potent free radical scavenging and antioxidant effect. Glutamate leads to excitotoxicity and oxidative stress, which are important pathophysiologic responses to cerebral ischemia resulting in brain edema and neuronal damage. We investigated the effect of EGCG on excitotoxic neuronal damage in a culture system and the effect on brain edema formation and lesion after unilateral cerebral ischemia in gerbils. In vitro, excitotoxicity was induced by 24-hr incubation with N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA; 10 microM), AMPA (10 microM), or kainate (20 microM). EGCG (5 microM) was added to the culture media alone or with excitotoxins. We examined malondialdehyde (MDA) level and neuronal viability to evaluate the effect of EGCG. In vivo, unilateral cerebral ischemia was induced by occlusion of the right common carotid artery for 30, 60, or 90 min and followed by reperfusion of 24 hr. Brain edema, MDA, and infarction were examined to evaluate the protective effect of EGCG. EGCG (25 or 50 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) was administered twice, at 30 min before and immediately after ischemia. EGCG reduced excitotoxin-induced MDA production and neuronal damage in the culture system. In the in vivo study, treatment of gerbils with the lower EGCG dose failed to show neuroprotective effects; however, the higher EGCG dose attenuated the increase in MDA level caused by cerebral ischemia. EGCG also reduced the formation of postischemic brain edema and infarct volume. These results demonstrate EGCG may have future possibilities as a neuroprotective agent against excitotoxicity-related neurologic disorders such as brain ischemia.

 

Brain Res. 2010 Feb 8;1313:25-33

Neuroprotective effects of (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate against quinolinic acid-induced excitotoxicity via PI3K pathway and NO inhibition.

Jang S¹, Jeong HS, Park JS, Kim YS, Jin CY, Seol MB, Kim BC, Lee MC.

Author information

Abstract

Excessive stimulation of the NMDA receptor induces neuronal cell death and is implicated in the development of several neurodegenerative diseases. While EGCG suppresses apoptosis induced by NMDA receptor-mediated excitotoxicity, the mechanisms underlying this process have yet to be completely determined. This study was designed to investigate whether (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) plays a neuroprotective role by inhibiting nitric oxide (NO) production and activating cellular signaling mechanisms including MAP kinase, PI3K, and GSK-3beta and acting on the antiapoptotic and the proapoptotic genes in N18D3 neural cells. The cells were pretreated with EGCG for 2 h and then exposed to quinolinic acid (QUIN), a NMDA receptor agonist, 30 mM for 24 h. MTT assay and DAPI staining were used to identify cell viability and apoptosis, respectively, and demonstrated that EGCG significantly increased cell viability and protected the cells from apoptotic death. In addition, EGCG had a capacity to reduce QUIN-induced excitotoxic cell death not only by blocking increase of intracellular calcium levels but also by inhibiting NO production. Gene expression analysis revealed that EGCG prevented the QUIN-induced expression of the proapoptotic gene, caspase-9, and increased that of the antiapoptotic genes, Bcl-XL, Bcl-2, and Bcl-w. Further examination about potential cell signaling candidate involved in this neuroprotective effect showed that immunoreacitivity of PI3K was significantly increased in the cells treated with EGCG. These results suggest that the neuroprotective mechanism of EGCG against QUIN-induced excitotoxic cell death includes regulation of PI3K and modulation of cell survival and death genes through decreasing of intracellular calcium levels and controlling of NO production.

 

 

aluminium seems to accumulate in not only the vacuoles but in the cell membrane too!  maybe consult a doctor and ask about chelation?  here's a list of side effects from aluminum poisoning.  good luck.

Direct measurement of aluminum uptake and distribution in single cells of Chara corallina.

Taylor GJ¹, McDonald-Stephens JL, Hunter DB, Bertsch PM, Elmore D, Rengel Z, Reid RJ.

Abstract

Quantitative information on the uptake and distribution of Al at the cellular level is required to understand mechanisms of Al toxicity, but direct measurement of uptake across the plasma membrane has remained elusive. We measured rates of Al transport across membranes in single cells of Chara corallina using the rare (26)Al isotope, an emerging technology (accelerator mass spectrometry), and a surgical technique for isolating subcellular compartments. Accumulation of Al in the cell wall dominated total uptake (71-318 microgram m(-2) min(-1)), although transport across the plasma membrane was detectable (71-540 ng m(-2) min(-1)) within 30 min of exposure. Transport across the tonoplast was initially negligible, but accelerated to rates approximating uptake across the plasma membrane. The avacuolate protoplasm showed signs of saturation after 60 min, but continued movement across the plasma membrane was supported by sequestration in the vacuole. Saturation of all compartments was observed after 12 to 24 h. Accumulation of Al in the cell wall reflected variation in [Al(3+)] induced by changes in Al supply or complexing ligands, but was unaffected by pH. In contrast, transport across the plasma membrane peaked at pH 4.3 and increased when [Al(3+)] was reduced by complexing ligands. Cold temperature (4 degrees C) reduced accumulation in the cell wall and protoplasm, whereas 2,4-dinitrophenol and m-chlorocarbonylcyanidephenyl hydrazone increased membrane transport by 12- to 13-fold. Our data suggest that the cell wall is the major site of Al accumulation. Nonetheless, membrane transport occurs within minutes of exposure and is supported by subsequent sequestration in the vacuole. The rapid delivery of Al to the protoplasm suggests that intracellular lesions may be possible.

Edited by gamesguru, 03 October 2016 - 12:27 AM.

[normalizing]

im speaking from personal experience and since you dont drink alcohol im not sure you ever had excitotoxicity to know better

[gamesguru]

800mg of molly causes some excito-damage. I say some, but I'm just being modest.

also am curious how you would describe the excitotoxic feeling and how quickly green tea makes it worse?

[Junk Master]

Ok, I'm stepping in...

 

I would consider myself extremely experienced with alcohol, though I no longer drink, and while I would recommend many other remedies than green tea (I'd save that for tapering off coffee), a cup or two of green tea is NOT going to push anyone over the edge.  Now, a couple hits of crack, or lines of crystal is a different story.

 

Granted that everyone's body chemistry is different but I can guarantee you there are literally millions of Japanese businessmen who drink until they pass out on Friday and drink green tea all weekend without complaining about brain exo-damage.

 

Again, I think this is a case where the poster just needs to refrain from trying to fix any self-diagnosed damage with MORE supplements, or nootropics.  Relax, meditation is even better, exercise, good nutrition, and most importantly SLEEP.  Give it a couple weeks and if you still feel brain fried, GO TO A DOCTOR.  Don't just shotgun more nootropics, supplements.

 

 

[Flex]

I guess normalizing is speaking from personal experience and this makes sense to me but if You want some evidence, heres what backs his anecdote:

 

Alcohol Dependence And Withdrawal

https://www.drugs.co...structions.html

 

Self-care:

...Avoid caffeine, which may be found in coffee, tea, and sports drinks.

 

Caffeine is an adenosine inhibitor and thus excitatory. Same goes supposedly for green tea because of the ratio of theanine. Yes it dampens but not 100% i.e. green tea would make You otherwise sleepy.

I mean, would You suggest caffeine to an epileptic and thus riscking that caffeine "maybe" being indirect toxic because of the subsequent glutamate overflow ?

Note that exitoxicity isnt allways mediated by NMDA but AMPA (which is calcium independent) and Kainate receptors as well.

Edited by Flex, 04 October 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[normalizing]

thanks flex thats well put. coffee definitely overexcites you in such cases and its bad for epilepsy but green tea has different but similar effect i assume EGCG does something too

[jack black]

obviously the OP didn't come back to update, so maybe he doesn't care anymore (hopefully he made it), but was it excitotoxicity in the first place?

Edited by jack black, 04 October 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[gamesguru]

Excitotoxcity does play a role^{[1], [2]}.  According to one review, oxidative stress plays a big role too.  Aluminum,

“... induces both mitochondrial and endoplasmic reticulum stress. Agents such as lithium or glial cell-line derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) have the ability to prevent aluminum-induced neuronal death by interfering with the mitochondrial and/or the endoplasmic reticulum-mediated apoptosis cascade.”

 

There are lots of other mechanisms too, not that green tea wouldn't be good:

“... this review will particularly address the involvement of oxidative stress, membrane biophysics alterations, deregulation of cell signaling, and the impairment of neurotransmission as key aspects involved Al and Pb neurotoxicity”

[fluidity]

As of now I'm no longer experiencing the excitotoxicity I did with malic acid anymore. I believe it may have been caused by the dumping of metals into the body if anything. 

 

At this point I'm 99% sure my body has been ravaged by the mercury, copper, iron, and aluminum it accumulated through my amalgam and spirulina usage. 

 

Besides chelating heavy metals, I'm curious to know if things will ever be the same afterwards. For those who managed to fix their issues regarding this, were you ever able to go to the state you were in before ever getting exposed to heavy metals.

 

I'm talking about not just cognition and personality, but also looks and physical abilities.

[normalizing]

just wait you get older, you will always keep accumilating metals no matter how careful you are, such is the world we live in. but you are young i assume? stop worrying, start worrying when you are old and there is no hope!

[jack black]

What's the scoop on Al toxicity? Last time I checked it was controversial. I used Al based antiperspirants over half of my life.

Besides, who knows what else they put in cosmetics that can absorb through skin.

Edited by jack black, 05 October 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[normalizing]

people who keep worrying about their health become sick

[gamesguru]

people who keep worrying about their health become sick

 

o wow u got gud.  what are you a literary genius suddenly? very clever... but horribly inaccurate

 

As for the aluminum, actual brain uptake is very slow (on average 1mg per 36 years), because compared to methylmercury, aluminum has poor bioavailability and cell membrane permeability (it's lipophilic, so it gets sopped up by the phospholipid bilayer).  Nevertheless, it gradually works its way through the body and into the membranes of deep cell structures, where it accumulates (ubiquinol and astaxanthin^[1] are lipophilic and accumulate in the membranes. phosphatidylcholine & serine may help replace oxidized heads/tails).  I'm sure you can find studies on most lipophilic antioxidants being good for heavy metal status.  Other ideas are the chelator or metabolic route.  Metabolic route just means getting rid of the aluminum quicker: increasing metabolism and enzyme activity, promoting transactivation of coregulatory factors, and other first grade stuff.

 

Beneath a certain criticality threshold, aluminum will cause very little damage, damage which can be prevented by good diet and a few supplements.  In the case of the Camelford water pollution incident, levels far in excess of this criticality threshold were reached, and still not everyone got dementia or cancer.  A similar problem exists for dialysis patients, because the machines don't removes aluminum effectively, so it just builds up sort of morbidly.  And a lot of these people eat very badly, don't take astaxanthin, are restricted to a wheelchair, and still keep going for a while.  Just goes to show how versatile the human body can be.

[fluidity]

 

people who keep worrying about their health become sick

 

o wow u got gud.  what are you a literary genius suddenly? very clever... but horribly inaccurate

 

As for the aluminum, actual brain uptake is very slow (on average 1mg per 36 years), because compared to methylmercury, aluminum has poor bioavailability and cell membrane permeability (it's lipophilic, so it gets sopped up by the phospholipid bilayer).  Nevertheless, it gradually works its way through the body and into the membranes of deep cell structures, where it accumulates (ubiquinol and astaxanthin^[1] are lipophilic and accumulate in the membranes. phosphatidylcholine & serine may help replace oxidized heads/tails).  I'm sure you can find studies on most lipophilic antioxidants being good for heavy metal status.  Other ideas are the chelator or metabolic route.  Metabolic route just means getting rid of the aluminum quicker: increasing metabolism and enzyme activity, promoting transactivation of coregulatory factors, and other first grade stuff.

 

Beneath a certain criticality threshold, aluminum will cause very little damage, damage which can be prevented by good diet and a few supplements.  In the case of the Camelford water pollution incident, levels far in excess of this criticality threshold were reached, and still not everyone got dementia or cancer.  A similar problem exists for dialysis patients, because the machines don't removes aluminum effectively, so it just builds up sort of morbidly.  And a lot of these people eat very badly, don't take astaxanthin, are restricted to a wheelchair, and still keep going for a while.  Just goes to show how versatile the human body can be.

 

Hmm I see. So by far it seems boosting metabolism would be the way to go. Besides taking stuff like thyroid boosting supplements, exercising, and gingko, what else would you recommend to maximize metabolism?

 

I'm aware of the importance of antioxidants. I have plenty of vitamin c+e, olive leaf, and garlic capsules at my disposal. I would get more stuff like astaxanthin, ubiquinol, carnosine, and phosphocholine however I'm short on cash due to college haha

[jack black]

In the case of the Camelford water pollution incident, levels far in excess of this criticality threshold were reached, and still not everyone got dementia or cancer. 

 

great story, thanks for mentioning.

 

https://en.wikipedia...lution_incident

 

 

Immediately after the contamination the authorities said that the water was safe to drink, possibly with juice to cover the unpleasant taste.

 

they always say that. didn't they say that in Flint, MI?

 

 

A 1999 report in the British Medical Journal concluded that some victims had suffered "considerable damage" to their brain function.^[46]

 

Edited by jack black, 05 October 2016 - 06:24 PM.

[gamesguru]

Metabolism in the membranes of cell structures will result in the cell dumping aluminum into the cytoplasm (which is assumed to have lower concentrations than the nucleus and mitochondria, to be "down" the gradient).  From there, vacuoles gobble up and dump it into the cerebrospinal fluid.  At night the cereprospinal fluid mixes with blood, bile and feces.  Gradually this process reduces overall levels, like diluting colored water across several cups, or washing out a greasy pan with successive pales of cold water.

 

It's a really open-ended question.

• Because of the role of adenylate inside the membrane, forskolin^[1] and genisten^[2].
• Anything that boosts the glial cells (they are the ones that clean out the brain at night): grapefruit, ginkgo and ginseng.
• It is known to interfere with the Krebs cycle as well as glutamate dehydrogenase^[3].  A lot of supplements can improve the Krebs cycle, like forskolin, and other improve glutamate dehydrogenase, green tea, magnesium, bacopa.
• Anything that addresses glutathione or superoxide defenses.
• Since it affects the DNA^[4]: ellagic acid and kiwifruit^[5].

Polyphenol complexes form, for example with methyl gallate which is stable above pH 6... this could mean green tea, a weak chelator, redistributes aluminum to more alkaline tissue.

J Agric Food Chem. 2016 Apr 20;64(15):3025-33. doi: 10.1021/acs.jafc.6b00331. Epub 2016 Apr 5.

Polyphenol-Aluminum Complex Formation: Implications for Aluminum Tolerance in Plants.

Zhang L¹, Liu R², Gung BW², Tindall S², Gonzalez JM³, Halvorson JJ⁴, Hagerman AE².

Author information

Abstract

Natural polyphenols may play an important role in aluminum detoxification in some plants. We examined the interaction between Al(3+) and the purified high molecular weight polyphenols pentagalloyl glucose (940 Da) and oenothein B (1568 Da), and the related compound methyl gallate (184 Da) at pH 4 and 6. We used spectrophotometric titration and chemometric modeling to determine stability constants and stoichiometries for the aluminum-phenol (AlL) complexes. The structures and spectral features of aluminum-methyl gallate complexes were evaluated with quantum chemical calculations. The high molecular weight polyphenols formed Al3L2 complexes with conditional stability constants (β) ∼ 1 × 10²³ at pH 6 and AlL complexes with β ∼ 1 × 10⁵ at pH 4. Methyl gallate formed AlL complexes with β = 1 × 10⁶ at pH 6 but did not complex aluminum at pH 4. At intermediate metal-to-polyphenol ratios, high molecular weight polyphenols formed insoluble Al complexes but methyl gallate complexes were soluble. The high molecular weight polyphenols have high affinities and solubility features that are favorable for a role in aluminum detoxification in the environment.

Edited by gamesguru, 05 October 2016 - 07:01 PM.

[normalizing]

had some sencha green tea today finally after long abstinence i hoped it would finally work but at first it was ok caused some alertness as expected and then few hours down i was struck with depression of the worst kind. not sure what it is in green tea that causes anxiety and depression besides the caffeine, but caffeine is so minimal compared to energy drinks and coffee and that just baffles me!

[Flex]

As of now I'm no longer experiencing the excitotoxicity I did with malic acid anymore. I believe it may have been caused by the dumping of metals into the body if anything. 

 

At this point I'm 99% sure my body has been ravaged by the mercury, copper, iron, and aluminum it accumulated through my amalgam and spirulina usage. 

 

Besides chelating heavy metals, I'm curious to know if things will ever be the same afterwards. For those who managed to fix their issues regarding this, were you ever able to go to the state you were in before ever getting exposed to heavy metals.

 

I'm talking about not just cognition and personality, but also looks and physical abilities.

 

according to a prof. dentists in a recent reportage I´ve watched, Amalgam leaks those metals only in ammounts that You anyway ingest with food. the ammount is only considderable while being implanted and removed.

 

and to comment the conclusion of GamesGuru: DMPS can be taken oraly but its far away from a nice "bang for buck" ratio. and again, talk with Your Doc before doing this, though its anyway perscription only in germany and the us.
 

[jack black]

 

Amalgam leaks those metals only in ammounts that You anyway ingest with food. the ammount is only considderable while being implanted and removed.

 

 

 

 

well, mercury is also released in high quantities when amalgam filling is cracked. it has happened to me once, i waited several weeks for a dental appointment to get it fixed and got very tired in the meantime. i got suspicious and searched the literature and there are cases of Hg poisonings due to cracked amalgam fillings. also, chewing gum and drinking/eating hot beverages/food increase Hg emission too. 

 

what about the other metals (copper, etc) from amalgam fillings. is it for real? it's news to me. iron is obviously BS.

[Flex]

What's the scoop on Al toxicity? Last time I checked it was controversial. I used Al based antiperspirants over half of my life.

Besides, who knows what else they put in cosmetics that can absorb through skin.

 

I believe to read that the transpirants werent that dangerous, if I´m not mistaken. You just have to be careful not to boil milk in aluminium pans.

In regards of cosmetics: nano particles in sun blockers.. e.g. ordinary Titanium behaves differently at the nano scale, means: possible toxic or cancerogen. Just read into that.

 

@ gamesguru You could look for Phyto chelatins in google scholar. it looks like there are plenty of (potentionally) chelating herbs and otc´s out there.
 

Edit:

 

@ Jack Black

 

wow I didnt knew that. btw I heard that Selenium behaves antagonistic to Mercury i.e. forms a stable, non-reactive complex. There was as tudy or report about the relation of fish intake and intelligence in children and those who eaten fish with a propper Selenium to Mercury ratio, were smarter than those who didnt eat fish but those with a bad ratio were lesser intelligent than both other groups. cant say whether the report is credible but I´ll search for it if Youre curious.

Edited by Flex, 05 October 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[gamesguru]

The uptake doesn't become a concern unless youre a girl who shaves also.  Removing the top layer of skin drastically increases its permeability.  But it still can't be too bad with shaved skin, only a small amount is absorbed.  The second study presumably used unshaved skin.  Not sure how it reports a mere 4 micrograms, because 1.81 *2 is almost 4 and you have more than two square centimeters underarm.

"On stripped skin, for which only the "stick" formulation was tested, the measured uptake was significantly higher (11.50 μg/cm² versus 1.81 μg/cm² for normal skin)"

"... at this rate, about 4 microg of aluminium is absorbed from a single use of ACH on both underarms."

 

Honestly not much data on how insoluble or non-reactive the complexes are with herbs/otcs.  Probably pharms are better for something so serious, and anyways, pharms are virtually always better bang for their buck, heh.

I was aware of selenium being good for mercury poisoning, but thought it was just because of its potent antioxidant status, didn't know the bit about forming the complexes.  I think the same thing is happening between selenium and aluminum ions.

Folia Histochem Cytobiol. 2013;51(4):312-9.

Effect of vitamin E and selenium against aluminum-induced nephrotoxicity in pregnant rats.

Abdel-Hamid GA¹.

Abstract

Kidney is one of the most affected organs by aluminium toxicity. This study aimed to investigate the effect of aluminium chloride on the kidney of pregnant rats and to assess the efficiency of vitamin E and selenium in ameliorating this effect. Forty virgin albino rats were randomly divided into two main groups. Control rats were further divided into negative control group (C1, n = 10) which received distilled water and positive control group (C2, n = 10) that received vitamin E (VE, 150 mg/kg/day) and selenium (NaSe 150 μg/kg/day) for 3 months through intra-gastric tube. The experimental group was divided into an E1 subgroup in which rats received aluminium chloride (AlCl₃, 150 mg/kg/day, n = 10) and E2 subgroup (n = 10) in which animals received the same dose of AlCl₃ plus VE and selenium at the same doses as C2 group for 3 months through intra-gastric tube. Conception of rats was allowed. AlCl₃, VE and NaSe were given through intragastric tube during the whole length of the pregnancy, at the same doses as before pregnancy. At the 20th day of gestation dams were sacrificed, kidneys were dissected and processed for routine histological and immunohistochemical staining for identification of T-lymphocytes and macrophages. Integrated optical density of both cell types was assessed. AlCl₃ administration induced histopathological changes in the kidney of pregnant rats and increased the density of CD3 and CD68 immunoreactive cells, suggestive of the associated aluminium-induced inflammatory process. Vitamin E and selenium minimized these harmful effects. The results suggest that diets rich in vitamin E and selenium and their supplements are advised particularly during pregnancy to alleviate the effects of possible excessive aluminium exposure.

 

 

African Journal of Biotechnology.  Vol.3(1), pp. 88-93 , January 2004

The effects of aluminium and selenium supplementation on brain and liver antioxidant status in the rat

M. G. Abubakar¹*, A. Taylor² and G. A. Ferns²

Abstract

This in vivo study was designed to investigate the potential of aluminium (Al), in the absence of added iron, to participate in either antioxidant or pro-oxidant events. Some markers of oxidative stress were determined in liver and brain of rats exposed to aluminium lactate, either alone or in the presence of dietary supplements of selenium (se) as selenite. Exposure to aluminium for 21 days resulted in a statistically significant (P<0.05) decrease in brain glutathione. However, a non-significant increase in hepatic glutathione was observed in animals supplemented with either Se or Al, but Al in combination with Se prevented this elevation. In the brain a statistically non-significant increase (P>0.05) was observed in the GSH content. Contrary to what is known, Al exposure resulted in statistically significant decrease (P<0.001) in lipid peroxidation as measured by production of malondialdehyde in both liver and brain. Aluminium exposure had no significant effect on the liver and brain superoxide dismutase activity. Results of the present study suggest that in rat aluminium exposure may have both pro-oxidant and antioxidant effect. Furthermore, Se supplementation may offer some protection against aluminium toxicity but this needs to be further elucidated.